According to the Center for Immigration Studies ("a non-profit, non-partisan think tank which examines and critiques the impact of immigration on the United States"), during the years of the amnesty in 1986, illegal immigration actually increased during the years of amnesty.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2000/ins1986amnesty.html

Since amnesty didn't help in 1986, I hope we're not seriously considering it again.

You seem to be assuming a connection between the amnesty and the rise in illegal immigration without ever showing an actual connection.

I think illegal immigration increased because we did not enforce our immigration laws on the employers who have been (and still are) luring these people here with the promises of jobs.

If it were as hard for a Mexican to get a job in America as it is for an American to get a job in Mexico, we wouldn't have this problem.

You seem to be assuming a connection between the amnesty and the rise in illegal immigration without ever showing an actual connection.



I didn't make a connection. The Center for Immigration Studies did. Since I suspect they study the issue a lot more than myself, I'm willing to defer to their expertise.

Although it kindof makes sense to me, that if you reward illegal aliens, more will follow.

Although it kindof makes sense to me, that if you reward illegal aliens, more will follow.

The Amnesty isn't the reward that keeps them coming, it is the continued promise of jobs.

If it were as hard for a Mexican to get a job in America as it is for an American to get a job in Mexico, we wouldn't have this problem.

The Amnesty isn't the reward that keeps them coming, it is the continued promise of jobs.

Agreed.

If it were as hard for a Mexican to get a job in America as it is for an American to get a job in Mexico, we wouldn't have this problem.

How many Americans do you think would want a job in Mexico?

A strong economy and/or the prospect of a cheap labour pool will continue to make this issue rear its head, as there isnt really a solution to it. This will be a big issue during the Presidentials, as neither party can loose on it. Build a wall along the Southern Border, theyll come in another way,by Canada, by boat or by airplane, the numbers of new illegals could be reduced, but thats about it.

How many Americans do you think would want a job in Mexico?


A few years ago I had to go through the entire process of being approved to work in Mexico because my employer was going to relocate me down there, but fortunately I did not have to stay there. It is a very long, expensive, buerocratic process with so much paperwork you would think you were buying a house.

Certain areas of Mexico are nice places to visit but overall it is not someplace I would want to live. The fact I don't speak Spanish being no small part.

They come here for the health care which is totally free to them and better than most americans will ever experience.

They come here for the education subsidies such as in-state tuition or free tuition to some of our best schools ... again, something most americans will never experience.

They come here to play by the special set of rules that the republican party and it's corporate puppeteers have put in place ... I.E. credit cards issued by major banks without having Social Secutiry cards ... the ability to drive on our freeways without drivers license, registrations nor proof of insurance, complete areas of the cities where their culture is the norm and their language rules ... and the freedom to have their children taught in bi-lingual clases or classes of their native language ... again, things the average american will never experience.

And of course the jobs which are tax-free ... guaranteed to be something the average american will never experience.

There is a bright side ... when Bush signs the amnesty bill, sometime this year, and allows tens of millions of illegals to become instant citizens, it will be one more nail in the coffin of the republican party.

I say open the flood-gates and let them all in ... anything that helps brings the conservative movement to a screeching halt and relegates them to the garbage dump of failed experiments.

Ive read somewhere that Foreign born Americans are more inclined to vote Democrat, cant find anything about it on the net tho.

Ive read somewhere that Foreign born Americans are more inclined to vote Democrat, cant find anything about it on the net tho.

It's minorities in general. For example, 90% of blacks vote democrat.

Major correction here ... it's 90% of the blacks that vote, vote dem.

Many blacks (and other minorities) don't vote because they are disenfranchised by the republican hit squads, governors, secretaries of state and the courts.

For the hispanics, they are always being accused of voting as non-citizens yet no one ever steps up and shows the evidence.

Why should that surprise me? We have yet to see any evidence of the so-called 19 that perped 9/11 nor any evidence of the pentagon crash nor any evidence of saddam being the mastermind of 9/11 nor any evidence of saddam working with A-Q.

Given that ... what the heck is one more lie?

Conservatism isn't a 'movement', Dop. It's an undeniable part of human nature.

Major correction here ... it's 90% of the blacks that vote, vote dem.

Many blacks (and other minorities) don't vote because they are disenfranchised by the republican hit squads, governors, secretaries of state and the courts.
To begin with, only 52% of eligible voters actually vote in any case. Secondly, those incidents with SUVs blocking voting booths were not a common occurance. There were no 'hit squads' to my knowledge. If you have a source on that please post it. Also, can you elaborate on how governors, sec. of state and the courts prevent blacks from voting?

For the hispanics, they are always being accused of voting as non-citizens yet no one ever steps up and shows the evidence.
Baseless accusations do not prevent a person from voting.

Why should that surprise me? We have yet to see any evidence of the so-called 19 that perped 9/11 nor any evidence of the pentagon crash nor any evidence of saddam being the mastermind of 9/11 nor any evidence of saddam working with A-Q.

We have evidence (http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch7.htm)of the hijackers

No evidence of the pentagon crash...? Well there is evidence, but you believe it is lacking. Regardless, what does this have to do with voting? We know that the government will lie if it can get away with it, so how does that bolster your point?

You're right, Saddam wasn't working with Al Queda. Bush tried to pull the wool over our eyes.

Given that ... what the heck is one more lie?
What lie?

Heres a lie that just wont go away.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers.html

If it were as hard for a Mexican to get a job in America as it is for an American to get a job in Mexico, we wouldn't have this problem. yup. Vast corruption in Mexico and the US are what causes people to jump the border. If the US government wanted to stop such they would fine companies vast sums for hiring such. They don't because
A. Business owns the US government and
B. immigrat labor accounts for a lot of jobs many americans see as 'below them'.

NAFTA has also worked to allow highly subsidiezed US corn farmers to dump their corn on Mexico which destroys the unsubsidized Mexican farmers livelihood. The ex-Mexican farmer then gets his family togather and head for where he here's there is work, the US.

Heres a lie that just wont go away.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers.html

I didn't see any evidence, just a lot of claims.

We have evidence of the hijackers

No evidence of the pentagon crash...? Well there is evidence, but you believe it is lacking. Regardless, what does this have to do with voting? We know that the government will lie if it can get away with it, so how does that bolster your point?

You're right, Saddam wasn't working with Al Queda. Bush tried to pull the wool over our eyes. Can the 9-11 discussions be kept in the 9-11 threads...PLEASE!!!!

fucking christ DOP can't you discuss the issue at hand. You seen to be becoming more and more fanatical (ie: ranting semi-coherently about any/everything) as time goes on...

Can the 9-11 discussions be kept in the 9-11 threads...PLEASE!!!!

fucking christ DOP can't you discuss the issue at hand.

Thank you 500

So the underlying view is, that big business USA is the cause of illegal Immigration, that their exploiting these misfortunate people.

So the underlying view is, that big business USA is the cause of illegal Immigration, that their exploiting these misfortunate people.

"Underlying"???

It was said quite overtly, actually.

And much more clearly.

Then when it comes to being a political hot potato in the upcoming elections, it will just be another bullshit game, neither side will face down big business.

So the underlying view is, that big business USA is the cause of illegal Immigration, that their exploiting these misfortunate people.

I view it as the exact opposite, but that might just be me.

The one's doing something wrong are the illegals. The businesses prosper from these illegals, but I don't think they they are doing something that is all that wrong.

I view it as the exact opposite, but that might just be me.

The one's doing something wrong are the illegals. The businesses prosper from these illegals, but I don't think they they are doing something that is all that wrong.
businesses that ignore labor laws and hire illegal aliens are just as criminal as the illegal aliens.

The businesses prosper from these illegals, but I don't think they they are doing something that is all that wrong.

Hiring Illegal workers is against the law.

Why don't you think it is wrong?

businesses that ignore labor laws and hire illegal aliens are just as criminal as the illegal aliens.

Look Mikezila, we agree on something else!

Look Mikezila, we agree on something else!
don't sell yourself short-even a stopped clock is right twice a day:lolhit:

even a stopped clock is right twice a day

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself.

Ah brotherly love...sorta.

It's 100% the fault of big business. I dont see how you can blame people for wanting to survive. However, I can certainly blame people who exploit human beings in the name of profits. Unfortunately, big business is what keeps the wheels of politics running. I don't see any useful solution anytime...ever.

businesses that ignore labor laws and hire illegal aliens are just as criminal as the illegal aliens.

Sure, they are breaking the law as well. However I don't think that the businesses are doing such a horrible thing. They are taking advantage of a situation which I don't think that should be illegal.

Hiring Illegal workers is against the law.

Why don't you think it is wrong?

I don't think it should be against the law, which is why I don't think it's wrong.

They are taking advantage of a situation which I don't think that should be illegal.

So are looters during a riot.

Should that be legal too?

Ah brotherly love...sorta.

It's 100% the fault of big business.
Wow, ok you're going to have to back up that claim there. I disagree completely.

I dont see how you can blame people for wanting to survive.
They are breaking the law, a law which all nations have and which is essential.

However, I can certainly blame people who exploit human beings in the name of profits.
You claim that businesses are exploiting the illegal immigrants, yet the immigrants are coming over the the US because of jobs which businesses like those provide.

If they come over here to survive as you said, then you should be thankful for those businesses which allow those immigrants to survive. I disagree with that though, Mexicans are quite able to survive in Mexico. They don't need to come to the US to be able to do that.

Unfortunately, big business is what keeps the wheels of politics running. I don't see any useful solution anytime...ever.
Businesses also are the backbone of our economy, and our country for that matter.

They are taking advantage of a situation which I don't think that should be illegal.

So are looters during a riot.

Should that be legal too?

Looters are not taking advantage of a situation which I think should be legal. They are taking advantage of a situation which I feel should be illegal, and which is illegal for obvious reasons. Bad comparison dharm.

Looters are not taking advantage of a situation which I think should be legal. They are taking advantage of a situation which I feel should be illegal, and which is illegal for obvious reasons. Bad comparison dharm.

I don't think so. I disagree with your opinion.
It makes no sense to think taking advantage of people in one situation is ok but not in another. Taking advantage of people is never a good thing, IMO.

Allowing the hiring of illegal immigrants only encourages many more of them to come here.

It makes a bad situation much, much worse.

Conservatism isn't a 'movement', Dop. It's an undeniable part of human nature.

Sure it's part of human nature ... in Orwell's Oceania, Huxley's 1932 London, Sinclair Lewis's 1933 Vermont and Bradbury's futuristic city of firemen like Montag or just about any other whacked-out society.

Undeniable - probably yes ... human ... no.

It is eminently human. Remember the Stanford prison experiment?

It is eminently human. Remember the Stanford prison experiment?


I vaguely recall the stanford experiment so I will not comment at the moment. If time permits, I will do some catch up and make a post later.

I don't think so. I disagree with your opinion.
It makes no sense to think taking advantage of people in one situation is ok but not in another. Taking advantage of people is never a good thing, IMO.
You are seriously not listening to me at all.

I said that the business are taking advantage of a situation, not the immigrants. They are obviously helping the people and not taking advantage of them.

As to your comparison, read what I wrote again.

"They are taking advantage of a situation which I don't think should be illegal."

Obviously I do not think looting should be legal, so your comparison doesn't hold water.


Allowing the hiring of illegal immigrants only encourages many more of them to come here.
Yes it does. However, using the logic there (that we should not do anything to encourage illegal immigrants) we should also decrease the standard of living and public services as well since those are also encouraging immigrants to come here.

I said that the business are taking advantage of a situation, not the immigrants. They are obviously helping the people and not taking advantage of them.

Yeah, I know, I understood you the first time. I said I disagree. I say they are taking advantage of the immigrants.

They are breaking the law and harming America by undercutting our workforce. (which includes you and me)

You are welcome to your opinion but I do not agree with you. Understand?

Yes it does. However, using the logic there (that we should not do anything to encourage illegal immigrants) we should also decrease the standard of living and public services as well since those are also encouraging immigrants to come here.

No, we should simply stop making those services available to illegal immigrants.

You would have us blow up the house because we have a pest problem.

One of the things you do when you have a pest problem (if you are smart) is you stop leaving food laying all over the place.

It is just common sense.

Yeah, I know, I understood you the first time. I said I disagree. I say they are taking advantage of the immigrants.
It's a mutually beneficial situation. How are the companies 'taking advantage' of the immigrants?

They are breaking the law and harming America by undercutting our workforce. (which includes you and me)
They undercut the unskilled laborers, which does not include me. I don't know if that includes you or not, but I doubt it does. If they came here legally it would be the same issue.

No, we should simply stop making those services available to illegal immigrants.

You would have us blow up the house because we have a pest problem.
I was using a reductio ad absurdum arguement to show you that simply because we do something that encourages illegal immigrants does not mean that we should stop it.

One of the things you do when you have a pest problem (if you are smart) is you stop leaving food laying all over the place.

It is just common sense.
And how far do you go? You've set no parameters at all. Do you have grocery stores check IDs to make sure that they don't sell groceries to illegal aliens?

Theres no doubt that by their very name, illegal immigrants are, well illegal. You cant have 12 million undocumented foreigners running around, nobody knowing what their doing.
Bussiness does take advantage of the situation,but thats what business does, I would imagine that the number of non skilled unemployed American Citizens would be more than enough to fill these jobs. The problems with that are numerous tho, Geography, most unemployed live hundreds if not thousands of miles from were the work is. Wages, a lot of illegals work for less than the minimum wage, not paying tax makes it worth their while. Accommodation, this is always very difficult to obtain in areas of high employment, and unfortunatley in the US, it would be very unwise for say white people to start moving into urban areas of high Mexican occupancy, were the cheaper housing can be found, the secret is to find a balance between these issues, not an easy task.

You cant have 12 million undocumented foreigners running around, nobody knowing what their doing.

Why not? If America is really a "free country" (so that those words are not just a slogan meaning "free for me but not necessarily for you"), then why not? What harm do they do beyond raising everyone's standard of living (they raise their own, and that of other Americans by doing cheap labor)?

Besides, you have far more ordinary citizens "running around, nobody knowing what they're doing." Do you want to be like Vietnam where you have to register with the local police whenever you move?

Do illegal immigrants compete with the bottom rungs of the labor force? Superficially, this would seem likely, but I've never seen any real evidence from a proper study, and there is good reason to think this is not really so. The bottom rungs of the American labor force are largely unemployable (the dole, dependent children, alcoholism, drugs, criminals, and so on).

A nation can have economic growth that is no more than the sum of two numbers: the increase in the labor force (population who want to work) plus the incremental output from increased productivity (mainly automation).

Any growth exceeding that is the form of pseudo-growth known as inflation. Countries like China and Vietnam can grow, for a while, much faster because they have large pools of seriously underemployed labor they can employ. In the U.S., any unemployment rate below where it is now (known as "full employment," a rate of 3-4 percent, which is mostly "frictional" unemployment--people changing jobs) results in inflation and bottlenecks--ultimately leading to a recession.

If America wants to really grow, it needs to increase its population of workers. Productivity improvements help, but only work on the edges.

What needs to happen is for America to liberalize its immigration laws so that those that come to America and work are not "illegal."

You have no idea how present American immigration attitudes hurt the country worldwide--how it has made America hated in many people' hearts. America is now a selfish "I got mine so you can go to Hell" country.

Why not? If America is really a "free country" (so that those words are not just a slogan meaning "free for me but not necessarily for you"), then why not? What harm do they do beyond raising everyone's standard of living (they raise their own, and that of other Americans by doing cheap labor)?



Let's see where to begin.

(1)They use government services, such as health care, education, highway, and security without contributing income tax

(2) The work without abiding labor laws, which exist to protect American workers - a boon to the economy, perhaps, but so was slavery for the same reasons

(3) They do not contribute in the form of time and effort to civic duties such as jury service, education, and military service.

(4) If there is ever a legal problem, such as civil damages or criminal conduct, caused by an illegal immigrant, the problem becomes either unresolvable or tremendously complicated because the immigrant lacks legitimate documentation

(5) They aggravate national security problems, by making it easy for terrorists to blend in with the illegal immigrant populations. For example, when I read up on the 1986 amnesty recently, I read that the mastermind behind the first World Trade Center bombing (the one that DID NOT cause the building to collapse) was granted amnesty in 1986. That amnesty allowed him to travel freely in and out of the U.S. including attending terrorist training camps in the Middle East.

There's 5 major harms that I can think of in less than 5 minutes. If we can put a serious dent to those problems in our society, I don't mind paying a twice as much for fruits and vegetables at the grocery store, or whatever it is you're claiming makes our standard of living so much higher.

Let's see where to begin.


You have your bigotry well rationalized.

What you don't have is the ability to read. I am said is make them legal. Then these problems all go away. Of course they are willing to work hard for a living at a lower wage, and that might be competition for you. Or maybe you jist don't like them thar fererners. They speak a differn't language.

Let's see where to begin.

(1)They use government services, such as health care, education, highway, and security without contributing income tax

(2) The work without abiding labor laws, which exist to protect American workers - a boon to the economy, perhaps, but so was slavery for the same reasons

(3) They do not contribute in the form of time and effort to civic duties such as jury service, education, and military service.

(4) If there is ever a legal problem, such as civil damages or criminal conduct, caused by an illegal immigrant, the problem becomes either unresolvable or tremendously complicated because the immigrant lacks legitimate documentation

(5) They aggravate national security problems, by making it easy for terrorists to blend in with the illegal immigrant populations. For example, when I read up on the 1986 amnesty recently, I read that the mastermind behind the first World Trade Center bombing (the one that DID NOT cause the building to collapse) was granted amnesty in 1986. That amnesty allowed him to travel freely in and out of the U.S. including attending terrorist training camps in the Middle East.

There's 5 major harms that I can think of in less than 5 minutes. If we can put a serious dent to those problems in our society, I don't mind paying a twice as much for fruits and vegetables at the grocery store, or whatever it is you're claiming makes our standard of living so much higher.

Well said, Leper!

You have your bigotry well rationalized.

What you don't have is the ability to read. I am said is make them legal. Then these problems all go away. Of course they are willing to work hard for a living at a lower wage, and that might be competition for you. Or maybe you jist don't like them thar fererners. They speak a differn't language.

Wow, who's the bigot now?

Making them legal doesn't mean they will obey the law.

And all of my reasons are based on facts and have nothing to do with bigotry. I wish I could say the same about your rather insulting reply.

Wow, who's the bigot now?

Making them legal doesn't mean they will obey the law.

And all of my reasons are based on facts and have nothing to do with bigotry. I wish I could say the same about your rather insulting reply.

OOOH--They have dark skinss.

Your claim to be based on facts is absurd. It is based on prejudice against outsiders. They will no more break the law than citizens will if the legalization process is properly organized.

The problem with "illegal" immigrants is the law, not the immigrants.

Wow, ok you're going to have to back up that claim there. I disagree completely.


They are breaking the law, a law which all nations have and which is essential.


You claim that businesses are exploiting the illegal immigrants, yet the immigrants are coming over the the US because of jobs which businesses like those provide.

If they come over here to survive as you said, then you should be thankful for those businesses which allow those immigrants to survive. I disagree with that though, Mexicans are quite able to survive in Mexico. They don't need to come to the US to be able to do that.


Businesses also are the backbone of our economy, and our country for that matter.

Yes they are breaking the law, and when caught, they should be punished. Still, just because they come over here to find a better job, doesn't mean the job isn't shit. I'm not "anti-business" in any sense. I don't think that Americans have a right to a job anymore than someone else, still it should go through legal channels. The businesses which employ illegal aliens are enablers of illegal immigration. As long as they turn a blind eye, this problem will continue. If businesses are forced to stop hiring illegals, then the illegals would stop comming, because there would be nothing for them here.

Illegals are breaking the law by hopping a fence in order to make $1.50 an hour. Businesses are breaking the law by hiring these people and completely exploiting them in the name of profits. Which do you think deserves more punishment?

A British attempt at tackling illegals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6424377.stm

Yes they are breaking the law, and when caught, they should be punished.

How--are you going to put them in jail? My--millions in jail, supported by taxes. Are you going to fine them? But the fact that they don't have any money is why they are here. Are you going to deport them? They will just come back.

People don't think very clearly when it comes to those who are "different" somehow from themselves. The fear here is that America will be changed--and yes it will be changed--but change will happen anyway. All things change. Combine this unspoken fear (prejudice) with the standard political reaction to every problem--make it a crime--and you can predictably predict a mess, which is what the U.S. now has.

If only the U.S. would wake up and get rid of its silly restrictive immigration laws, it could get on with its history much better. Yes, millions would come, and, yes, they would cause problems. Guess what--America has already experienced that, and ended up a superpower as a result. People build a country, not land or resources (otherwise Russia would be the superpower, or Canada or Australia or Brazil).

I would say that reasonable rules, such as a formal application procedure, with admittance automatically granted if there is a certain education level, a clean history and a willingness to work. Some would still come illegally, but the problem would be so much smaller it could be managed.

I could go on forever about the benefits to America of immigration--foreign relations, the world economy and population problems, young people coming in to support retirees, and so on and on.

I agree wholeheartedly, Thislin. This country balked at the idea of an influx of Italians at one time. Nowdays, very few of us can tell the difference between an Italian or a German in our community because they've assimilated into the American culture.

People tend to talk about 'illegal immigrants' like they're some sleazy and unwelcome species when they're actually just a group of people from another country who come here to build a better life for their families. Nothing more... nothing less. The Dallas, Texas I knew as a kid was basically all WHITE -- then it was a mix of BLACK & WHITE. Now it's a mix of BLACK & WHITE & BROWN... with a few other races thrown in there as well.

So what? The only way it's changed my life is that I now have a wider assortment of cultural events, shopping, restaurants, etc. than I used to have. And I might add... I'm still free to be as WHITE as I ever was.

I think the multiple points being listed as reasons why we should just pack up all these people and send them back home are a good example of hysteria. For example, many more people from Texas travel to Mexico for cheap health care (esp prescriptions) than people from Mexico travel to Texas to sit in public hospital waiting rooms for 18 hrs to be treated for the flu.

"I would say that reasonable rules, such as a formal application procedure, with admittance automatically granted if there is a certain education level, a clean history and a willingness to work. Some would still come illegally, but the problem would be so much smaller it could be managed."

I couldn't agree more.

:)
SMW

We all live on the same planet that makes us responsible for ourselves and each other , anyone who drives a car is partly responsable for worldwide tsunami and sea level rise I am not american and live in Europe and as I am living in a country which is not of my birth I know what it feels like to be referred to as an Immigrant I work hard and defend my rights as well as the rights of national workers ! if we are turned on each other by the bosses and the politicians we all lose !

A British attempt at tackling illegals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6424377.stm

The Brits cannot legally stop migration from the commonwealth (EX EMPIRE) !

Well actually they cant, if your from a Commonwealth country, ie, Canada, Australia, NZ, India, all these people need visa's, just to visit the UK, and their stay is restricted, EU Citizens can go to UK and stay if they want, except Romanians and Bulgarians who had restrictions placed on them.

The World is in a mess thanks to the international collective of greed, politicians in cahoots with the multinational corporations, we have a commerce based on enslavement distruction of the envoirnment and the nomal people like me have to spend our measily earnings carefully to not support this cancerlike expansion how many supermarkets do we need to destroy agriculture, how many farmers are economically forced to produce crops for industry instead of food or sell good land for developement of golf resorts and how many idiots play golf while scarse water is used keeping the green green? we are all Immigrants!

How--are you going to put them in jail? My--millions in jail, supported by taxes. Are you going to fine them? But the fact that they don't have any money is why they are here. Are you going to deport them? They will just come back.

People don't think very clearly when it comes to those who are "different" somehow from themselves. The fear here is that America will be changed--and yes it will be changed--but change will happen anyway. All things change. Combine this unspoken fear (prejudice) with the standard political reaction to every problem--make it a crime--and you can predictably predict a mess, which is what the U.S. now has.

If only the U.S. would wake up and get rid of its silly restrictive immigration laws, it could get on with its history much better. Yes, millions would come, and, yes, they would cause problems. Guess what--America has already experienced that, and ended up a superpower as a result. People build a country, not land or resources (otherwise Russia would be the superpower, or Canada or Australia or Brazil).

I would say that reasonable rules, such as a formal application procedure, with admittance automatically granted if there is a certain education level, a clean history and a willingness to work. Some would still come illegally, but the problem would be so much smaller it could be managed.

I could go on forever about the benefits to America of immigration--foreign relations, the world economy and population problems, young people coming in to support retirees, and so on and on.


Did you even read the rest of my post?

There already is an application procedure closely resembling the one you have. Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the problem. The majority of illegals are uneducated, thus making them only suitable for the jobs they have currently. The place we can apply real pressure and change is in the corporate circles.

My personal preference would be open borders: procedure, to be sure, to filter out known criminals and so on, but no immigration quotas.

That kind of freedom--given to others--scares people. They have visions of American being overrun by "furreners"--greasy, dark skinned people who are different from us.

So, just as with prohibition, we create a problem with our laws--one that could easily be avoided with a little common sense and a dollop of unprejudiced generosity.

The fact is that immigrants--even ignorant, unbaptized heathens--tend to do better than natives. This is the self-selection of the immigrant--those with "get up and go" are the ones who "get up and go."

After a few generations, several things happen. First, they merge into the general population and culture. Second, the "get up and go" gets diluted.

Would America have difficulties with this? Yes, it would, but America would end up much better off--it is especially going to need a lot more people if it is to remain the world's superpower and not come under Chinese hegemony.

I'm sickened.

America is fucked.

Heres a theory:
Firstly, u have to accept the 12 million alreadt there, nothing u can do about them.
Introduce a law which makes it a custodial sentence of say 2 years for anyone being in the country illegally. Set up Immigration Camps for serving the sentence in, to keep them away from the Prison system, would this action reduce the number entering in the future.
Oh, after the 2 years are served, immediatly deported to country of origin.

This picture was taken in Idaho. The road is in Canada. You can see how difficult it is to get into the US.

Yes they are breaking the law, and when caught, they should be punished. Still, just because they come over here to find a better job, doesn't mean the job isn't shit. I'm not "anti-business" in any sense. I don't think that Americans have a right to a job anymore than someone else, still it should go through legal channels. The businesses which employ illegal aliens are enablers of illegal immigration. As long as they turn a blind eye, this problem will continue. If businesses are forced to stop hiring illegals, then the illegals would stop coming, because there would be nothing for them here. I answered this when I replied to dharm.

'Yes it does. However, using the logic there (that we should not do anything to encourage illegal immigrants) we should also decrease the standard of living and public services as well since those are also encouraging immigrants to come here.'

Illegals are breaking the law by hopping a fence in order to make $1.50 an hour. Businesses are breaking the law by hiring these people and completely exploiting them in the name of profits. Which do you think deserves more punishment?
When it is uncovered that they are illegal, they should be deported. It should not be the responsibility of the company to check anymore than it is the checkout guy at the grocery store (no food means immigrant won't come here).

Obviously I think the immigrant deserves the only punishment. The only case where I feel a business should be punished is when they knowingly hired an illegal immigrant.

Let's see where to begin.

(1)They use government services, such as health care, education, highway, and security without contributing income tax
I agree.

(2) The work without abiding labor laws, which exist to protect American workers - a boon to the economy, perhaps, but so was slavery for the same reasons
I see no problem here. They can work shitty conditions for less money. I have no qualms with that.

(3) They do not contribute in the form of time and effort to civic duties such as jury service, education, and military service.

(4) If there is ever a legal problem, such as civil damages or criminal conduct, caused by an illegal immigrant, the problem becomes either unresolvable or tremendously complicated because the immigrant lacks legitimate documentation

(5) They aggravate national security problems, by making it easy for terrorists to blend in with the illegal immigrant populations. For example, when I read up on the 1986 amnesty recently, I read that the mastermind behind the first World Trade Center bombing (the one that DID NOT cause the building to collapse) was granted amnesty in 1986. That amnesty allowed him to travel freely in and out of the U.S. including attending terrorist training camps in the Middle East.

There's 5 major harms that I can think of in less than 5 minutes. If we can put a serious dent to those problems in our society, I don't mind paying a twice as much for fruits and vegetables at the grocery store, or whatever it is you're claiming makes our standard of living so much higher.
I completely agree, except for #2.