We are currently seeing in Iraq GIs being very harsh on people who own or sell guns. That makes sense.
But in the USA the same people would be protected by the constitution ! There is a huge paradox here.
Maybe it is time to ban - or at least to control very strictly- the private property of guns everywhere in the world.

Nope. When your country unseats a tyrant (or even gets off their pompous asses and helps) then they can have some say in what kinds of gun control/restrictions are imposed. But until then, its no ones concern but the United States military.

And gun control in the United States is definately not your countries concern.

Don't even think about trying to take my bullet launchers.

To put it nicely go to he**(on this issue). I already heard the U.N. was trying to do this bullsh**. Why is it Astrapol2 you are so dead set against guns? Were you shot or something. Many of us AMERICAN's hunt or just plain collect and or like to shoot. Some people have guns as a hobby. The guns that kill are usually illegally owned. There are alot, ALOT of gun owners that go out every weekend with friends and shoot targets, why do so many people see this as a bad thing? Cars cause more deaths then guns ever have or ever will so maybe we should ban them???? You also said regulate whats next regulating bathroom time why not just throw the whole world into a dictatorship?

The UN and France and all those other Euro weenies dont like us to have guns because as long as we have them they will never be able to control us. The UN wants our money to distribute around the world, well we all know what they can do! COme get it mr Anan, come and get it.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Nope. When your country unseats a tyrant (or even gets off their pompous asses and helps) then they can have some say in what kinds of gun control/restrictions are imposed. But until then, its no ones concern but the United States military.

And gun control in the United States is definately not your countries concern.

My country has nothing to do in this debate. It is my personal opinion, that's all.

Originally posted by es347fan
Don't even think about trying to take my bullet launchers.

I thought maybe you would surrender without fighting. It seems i am going to need my chemical weapons though - stinky cheese gas.

Originally posted by mad dog
Why is it Astrapol2 you are so dead set against guns? Were you shot or something.


No, thanks god very few people are shot in France every year, unlike in America.

Many of us AMERICAN's hunt or just plain collect and or like to shoot. Some people have guns as a hobby.

In Europe too. But they have to leave their gun at the clubhouse. That is what I call a fair restriction.

The guns that kill are usually illegally owned.

But legaly produced and sold in the first place. If 90% of guns were removed from circulation, the USA would be a safer place.

You also said regulate whats next regulating bathroom time why not just throw the whole world into a dictatorship?

Oh yes. Why not authorize flamethrowers and nuclear weapons too for the sake of individual freedom ?

Originally posted by astrapol2
My country has nothing to do in this debate. It is my personal opinion, that's all. Ok, and i responded with my personal opinion.

Originally posted by astrapol2
We are currently seeing in Iraq GIs being very harsh on people who own or sell guns. That makes sense.
But in the USA the same people would be protected by the constitution ! There is a huge paradox here.
Maybe it is time to ban - or at least to control very strictly- the private property of guns everywhere in the world.

First off, obviously Iraq and and the US are fundamentally different countries; In each, gun control needs to be considered serparately. However, this is a moot point since I believe the GIs are just trying to take away assault rifles for Irqis, not hand guns. It's the same way here; Ownership of assault rifles is banned.

This is partially why I'm against the U.S. approach to Iraq. It's not concievable to me that the U.S. is going to be able to turn Iraq into a country resembling the U.S. in a span of a few years when it took the U.S. centuries to evolve into the nation it is now. You don't end radical fundamentalist values and cyclic violence after a few years of laborious order; it's naive to believe otherwise.

As for personal gun ownership in the U.S., I'd first like to say it's not necessarily constitutionally protected. The relevant part of the U.S. Constitution says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." As you probably can discern for yourself, there are several arguments about how far this statement goes toward protecting private gun ownership. Our Supreme Court has made rulings that trend away from constitutional protection of private gun ownership.

Strictly as a political issue tho, I support private gun ownership.

First, political power comes from the muzzle of a gun. You take away arms from the people, and they become powerless in the face of the government. Thus, the ability to potently rebel against the government is necessary to keep the government from abusing its power.

Second, I want to live in an environment where I am the master of my fate. Take the right to own guns from me, and I have to live the rest of my life at the mercy of armed lawless individuals, hoping that I am lucky enough to never be targetted by such individuals. I'm sorry, but relying on luck has never been something I encourage in my lifestyle or anyone else's lifestyle.

I put together a flame thrower once, using a 20lb propane tank for the fuel supply, a length of rubber hose, and a wand similar to what's used in a "quarter" car wash. Worked pretty good, and was lots of fun. Great for getting rid of hornets' nests.

Originally posted by es347fan
Great for getting rid of hornets' nests. LOL....maybe you should patent that for idiots like the one in Switzerland.

Way to complicated for use by idiots. My blood pressure woulnd't tolerate the resulting lawsuits from their misusing the device. Let the masses make their own toys.

Originally posted by Leper

First, political power comes from the muzzle of a gun. You take away arms from the people, and they become powerless in the face of the government. Thus, the ability to potently rebel against the government is necessary to keep the government from abusing its power.

Do you mean that the only way to prevent a government from becoming totalitarian is the threat of armed revolution ?
LOL !
If this is true, it is a very sad conception of democracy. And even in this case, the army would definitely have the firepower to crush any revolt.

Second, I want to live in an environment where I am the master of my fate. Take the right to own guns from me, and I have to live the rest of my life at the mercy of armed lawless individuals, hoping that I am lucky enough to never be targetted by such individuals. I'm sorry, but relying on luck has never been something I encourage in my lifestyle or anyone else's lifestyle.

But the fact that most citizen possess gune only raises the chace of them being shot !
Statistics show that in the USA, a privately owned gun is 43 times more likely to be used against someone from home than against an aggressor.

In most European countries, guns are very stricltly controlled. Just compare the homicide rate in the USA and Europe.

And just to remind you what people who own a gun can do of their "freedom" when they occasionnally get mad…

Some fatal shootings at U.S. workplaces:

_August 27, 2003: Gunman on the verge of losing his job opened fire at an auto parts warehouse in Chicago, killing six people. The gunman was also shot dead.

_July 8, 2003: Doug Williams, 48, allegedly gunned down 14 co-workers, killing six, at a Lockheed Martin aircraft parts plant in Meridian, Miss., before turning the gun on himself.

_July 1, 2003: Jonathon Russell, 25, allegedly shot and killed three co-workers and wounded five others at the Modine Manufacturing Co. in Jefferson City, Mo., before killing himself.

_Feb. 25, 2003: Emanuel Burl Patterson, 23, allegedly opened fire at Labor Ready Inc., a temporary employment service in Huntsville, Ala., killing four fellow job-seekers and wounding a fifth. Patterson has been charged with murder.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=6&u=/ap/20030827/ap_on_re_us/workplace_shootings_list_1

Originally posted by astrapol2
But the fact that most citizen possess gune only raises the chace of them being shot !
Statistics show that in the USA, a privately owned gun is 43 times more likely to be used against someone from home than against an aggressor.

In most European countries, guns are very stricltly controlled. Just compare the homicide rate in the USA and Europe.

Compare the home invasion rate in the UK before and after they banned guns.

Guns have been banned for decades in UK. Even policemen did not carry guns a few years ago.
And I do not pretend that the crime rate is lower in Europe and in the USA. The big difference is that usually in Europe crimes do not imply violent death since very few criminals carry weapons. When everyone owns a weapon, that just raises the global level of violence of a society.

Hey we all no getting beaten to death with a club is less violent then being shot to death by a gun (MY A**:rolleyes:). Astrapol you say your country has guns but you have to leave them at the club, well maybe that is good for the city. I live in the country we have one sort or another of hunting season always going on. I hunt in my back yard, now why the heck would I want to travel all the way to the stinking club just to get a gun. One other thing we have a problem with coydogs in this part of the world, and I can tell you from first hand experience they are not afraid of a club. Now you say ok country people can keep there guns but city people have to lock there's up bullsh**, this is still a FREE country. I have been around guns all my life, the same as my father, and his father, and so on, and so on. NOT ONCE did anyone of my family members get shot on purpose(murder) nor did they ever shoot anyone else(unlees they were in a war WW1, korea, etc...) I'm still asking, why are you so dead set against owner ship (personally)Don't give me the bleeding heart story sh** either, you know as well as I do statistics can be and are altered by whom ever is doing them. As far as your post about the CRAZY people going on a killing spree, well they could have just as easily used a propane tank. These people would have killed with or without guns. How come no one ever talks about the nut job that used there car as a killing machine that happens quite alot? I think the real reason you don't like guns is because you haven't really been around them that much. You listen to the pin heads(media sissy's) and don't really take the time to get familiar with the owners themselfs. I ask you go to one of your gun clubs with someone and ask about sh** maybe even try shooting I will almost bet you won't have the same feeling you do now. Shooting in my house is a family thing. My wife, daughter, and son all shoot, it is something that we do as a family and we all enjoy it. It is NO MORE DANGEROUS THEN RIDDING A BIKE DOWN THE STREET. It as been a learning experience for my kids they know about safety and have learned alot about respect. I think the way you feel is just because of who you interact with, not what you really know about the issue. This is a shame because you automaticlly pass judgement without facts.

They dont have guns, so they think no one else should either, its typical European aristocratic know it all BS. They may be jelous, or they may be controlling, either way, they think they know what is best for us, or think we dont know what is best for us. Its just another chance for those Euro weenies to lookdown their noses at us. Let them kill their babies, free their killers and keep their guns at the club. In the end we all know where they turn when their ass is in the fire.

Do you mean that the only way to prevent a government from becoming totalitarian is the threat of armed revolution ?
LOL !
If this is true, it is a very sad conception of democracy. And even in this case, the army would definitely have the firepower to crush any revolt.

I think this statement is funny coming from a Frenchman to an American. Both of our countries's governments would never have come into existance without armed revolutions in response to unrepresentative governments.

Is the only way to prevent a government from becoming totalitarian through the threat of armed revolution? No, but it's the most effective way. The only other method I can think of in history is non-cooperation movements by Martin Luther King and Gandhi...of course, even those movements had violent radical wings working for the same cause. Are there other effective methods you propose for people defending themselves against unwelcome government?

I would also argue this on a small-scale, common-sense level by asking this question: If you were in an authority position, would you be more likely to try to appease armed protesters or unarmed protesters? I think the answer is obvious.

But the fact that most citizen possess gune only raises the chace of them being shot !
Statistics show that in the USA, a privately owned gun is 43 times more likely to be used against someone from home than against an aggressor.

In most European countries, guns are very stricltly controlled. Just compare the homicide rate in the USA and Europe.


I concede the statistics. However, I never make decisions in my personal life based on underwhelming statistics. The people who get killed by their own guns are the people who are most careless, psychologically unsound, or otherwise unfit gun owners. I am confident that I would not fall into such a category.

On a public level, I would say the loss of life is a small price to pay for such a fundamental freedom....just like driving a car or walking outside in a lightning storm. People die, but that's a risk we voluntarily incur without the sayso of our government.

Originally posted by Leper


Are there other effective methods you propose for people defending themselves against unwelcome government?

Multipartism. People voting and getting involved in public life. Balance of power. Justice.
This is the real basis of a democracy. Not guns. Otherwise, Afghanistan, Somalia and Yemen would be the nicest democracies in the world.






People die, but that's a risk we voluntarily incur without the sayso of our government.

A risk means you get something worth it in return. What does America get in return for allowing guns to be sold more easily than aspirin ? I still do not see.

Originally posted by astrapol2
A risk means you get something worth it in return. What does America get in return for allowing guns to be sold more easily than aspirin ? I still do not see. More easily than aspirin? Dont you think you're being just a tad bit melodramatic?


And what do we as a people get from the right to bear arms? Sense of security, what else? Security from whatever harm against us that we can prevent.

Originally posted by astrapol2
Multipartism. People voting and getting involved in public life. Balance of power. Justice.
This is the real basis of a democracy. Not guns. Otherwise, Afghanistan, Somalia and Yemen would be the nicest democracies in the world.


Really? Is that how France disposed of Hitler?

The September 2003 issue of Popular Mechanics magazine has a fine article on a brand new offering from Smith & Wesson: a 50 caliber revolver. The new most powerful handgun offered since Dirty Harry's celebrated Smith & Wesson Model 29 .44 Magnum. Wow. Under $1000. US. What a hand cannon!!

Yeouch!!!! What are they gonna do with that thing? Hunt elephants?

Really? Is that how France disposed of Hitler?

Or Napoleon. I, too, support the right to bear arms. Too many times, governments have changed and needed to be overthrown. If no one had any weapons, that would be very difficult to do.

Originally posted by Karankawa
Or Napoleon. I, too, support the right to bear arms. Too many times, governments have changed and needed to be overthrown. If no one had any weapons, that would be very difficult to do.

OK. Now Leper and Karankawa, explain me exactly how privately owned handgun are a way to support democracy in the USA.

Let us imagine a vicious dictator takes the power (I wonder how he could - but since your election system managed to put Bush in the white house with less than the majority of votes, it is maybe not so unlikely).
What will you do with your precious handgun ? Go in the street and kill a cop ? Then wait for the army to shoot you ?

I can understand one wants a gun because he wants to protect himself from burglars, or because he likes to shoot, or because he is a gangster, or because he wants to kill his workmates or teachers. A gun can do all these things. But if you really believe your gun will prevent your country from an illegimitate govt, why don't you go and shoot GWB straight now ?

"... why don't you go and shoot GWB ..."

Probably not the best choice in phrases, Astrapol. Given the level of sophistication in on-line tracking software, and the distinct probability that things of this nature are monitored, this kind of statement could draw all sorts of unwanted attention to you.

Astrapol2 how come you have given no answer to my post?

Originally posted by es347fan
"... why don't you go and shoot GWB ..."

Probably not the best choice in phrases, Astrapol. Given the level of sophistication in on-line tracking software, and the distinct probability that things of this nature are monitored, this kind of statement could draw all sorts of unwanted attention to you.

You're right, i'm going to buy a gun to protect myself from men in black.
Anyway, I am certainly already in half a dozen of french and european "dangerous activists" databases, so…

Originally posted by mad dog
Astrapol2 how come you have given no answer to my post?

Because i found it quite long, a little bit boring and excessively aggressive (sorry if this appears aggressive too ;) ) .

OK, now I just took the time to read it again. I'm going to answer as well as I can.


Hey we all no getting beaten to death with a club is less violent then being shot to death by a gun.


But you will hardly see a crazy teenager or serial sniper kill dozens of people with a club.

I live in the country we have one sort or another of hunting season always going on.

There are many hunters in France too. They are allowed to possess a rifle but they can take it only in the places and at the dates allowed by the law.

You do not hunt in the street. So why would people be allowed to carry a gun out of the hunting area or out of private shooting grounds ?

One other thing we have a problem with coydogs in this part of the world, and I can tell you from first hand experience they are not afraid of a club.

How many people have been killed by coydogs in the USA last year ?

I have been around guns all my life, the same as my father, and his father, and so on, and so on. NOT ONCE did anyone of my family members get shot on purpose(murder) nor did they ever shoot anyone else

Unfortunately 10 000 people in your country do not have this luck every year.


You know as well as I do statistics can be and are altered by whom ever is doing them.

Unfortunately the figures here are so obviously in favor of gun contro that I am still waiting for one statistic that you could use to support your position.

I think the real reason you don't like guns is because you haven't really been around them that much.(…)

It is NO MORE DANGEROUS THEN RIDDING A BIKE DOWN THE STREET. It as been a learning experience for my kids they know about safety and have learned alot about respect.

Good try. I have actually been shooting when I was a kid, pretty much in the familial conditions you describe. I found this funny.
But I have grown up and i am able to see the drawbacks of personal gun ownership for a society.
I am not saying that all guns should be banned. But I think that it makes sense that such weapons should be controlled very closely : one should have a license to buy and keep a gun, only sport guns should be allowed (including hunting rifles), the places where one can use a gun should be restricted and the fact of carrying a gun anywhere else should be prohibited. And the police should be able to know who owns what kind of weapon.

Alle these rules would not prevent you from using your gun with your family as you like. But they would prevent many other uses. And many accidental or intentional deaths.

So, finally, about my personal motivations : I really can't imagine that in your society, so close to mine by many aspects, guns are so easily tolerated. When travelling in the USA, I was constantly stressed by people's obsession about safety. Many places were supposed to be too dangerous to visit, and people's main concern was safety. Nowhere else in the world, except in South Africa, did I feel the same. The idea that at any moment anyone could attack you with a gun was a common point in these two countries.

Originally posted by astrapol2
The idea that at any moment anyone could attack you with a gun was a common point in these two countries.

Of course it goes without saying that no one actually did attack you. I don't pretend to be old and wise, but in my 31 years in this country I've yet to see a gun out in public that wasn't possessed by a police officer or military person. As a matter of fact, I've only seen a grand total of about 3-4 guns up close. It's not like there are old west shootouts on every corner here.

Astrapol2 Thanks for giving me the time, sorry it seemed aggressive, and boring but I was just trying to make my point. I somewhat understand what you are saying but as LionelHutz has pointed out, not every gun owner is out having a shoot out. When you were here did you see 1 person killed by a gun? I never have. We have many laws for guns, but like I have said before, the ones that commit most of the gun crimes don't follow the laws in the first place. I think you get most of your info from the meat head media nothing personal against you. It is just like when we have commercials for visiting NY they show the city as this beautiful place (haa haa heee hee) If you travel into the beautiful city you will see garbage, hookers, and drug addicks. Does this mean the city is ugly or beautifull, neither it is just like every other city in the world. Now you also said you did shoot when you were younger, did you shoot anybody or did you see someone else shoot someone?

No, i never witnessed any gunfight in may life, in France or anywhere else.

But if I had to choose the coolest place to live, I would not go in a country where owning guns is part of the lifestyle.

But if I had to choose the coolest place to live, I would not go in a country where owning guns is part of the lifestyle.

Seems like the French love living in a country where surrendering IS part of the lifestyle. Hey you win every time - just gotta collaborate!

You Frenchmen(?) just all need to come out of the closet and quit bitching.

Hey Xingyman !
Finally you're back. I guess you've been busy these last month in Iraq looking for WMD that do not exist.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/atil/forum/applaud.gif

Hey Xingyman !
Finally you're back. I guess you've been busy these last month in Iraq looking for WMD that do not exist

No, actually I've been in France trying to locate some Frenchmen who aren't gay.

No, actually I've been in France trying to locate some Frenchmen who aren't gay.

Wow...how old are you, 12?

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Wow...how old are you, 12? I guess you calling someone a moron is SO much more mature, right?

Originally posted by xingyiman
But if I had to choose the coolest place to live, I would not go in a country where owning guns is part of the lifestyle.

Seems like the French love living in a country where surrendering IS part of the lifestyle. Hey you win every time - just gotta collaborate!

You Frenchmen(?) just all need to come out of the closet and quit bitching.

Although it's a cheap shot, xingy has a point. I mean, you don't see the US getting conquered once every 50 years. If that means we lose a few thousand of 280 million people to gun violence every year, I'll take the trade.

Also, look at all those thousands of elderly Frenchmen who lost their lives baking in the summer heat because their families were too busy vacationing. What is more outrageous is that most of those dead victims are still stored a morgue somewhere. That kind of unconscious neglect does alot more damage than the conscious abuse of firearms.

Let us be a little proportionate and fair, huh?

(Cars are a hell of a lot more dangerous than guns, especially sidearms. Just check the stats.)

OK. Many good points to support private firearms here.
1- French are gays
2- USA has never been invaded (sure the rednecks with guns were a great help during WWI and WWII)
3- old people die and cars are dangerous


I also suggest :
4- some flowers may be lethal
5- american trucks are bigger than european ones
6- Napoleon is a funny name

Wow...how old are you, 12?

Old enough to be hit on by your father.

Astrofool you obviously live in a country that has severe gun control and are happy about it. So why the hell do you give a crap even if us Americans are blowing each others heads off by the thousands daily? You French hate us. So I say you should be in strong support of gun rights because if Americans can succeed in killing themselves off, you French won't have to live in the shadow of the world's foremost superpower anymore. You can then feel happy in purporting the delusion that you are the cultureal elites of the human race.

Here we go again.
Can't you debate with a french without resorting to this kind of stereoptype ? Did I ever call you a cowboy ?

I did not say anything about supporting firearms. I just trying to shed some light on other, more important and deadly concerns that kill off more people than some people with firearms.

And please, do not twist my words to support your argument.

OK, psamtik. I know from experience that twisting other's words is not very fair ; sorry for that.
But you have to admit that, even if the cars accidents are a real issue, that does in no way lower the firearms problem.

Here we go....................

Guns have a pupose and are not bad

Cars have a purpose and are not bad

Food has a purpose and is not bad

people are what make things what they are, stupid people do stupid things not the gun, car, etc... The simple answer is if you don't like guns then don't own one.

Except that I can't imagine a society without food, I can hardly imagine a society without cars, but I can imagine a society without guns and it seems a good option to me. In fact most rich countries are actually nearly gun-free, except for the USA.

will you stop listening to John Lennon, get your head out of the clouds and come down to reality? Just becasue you dont have guns doesnt mean you cant die by one you jackass. Please just stay in europe with your gay ass and leave American guns alone!

Trav, can't you debate rationally rather than spewing insults just because someone disagrees with you? Just watch:

Astrapol, a world without guns wouldn't be too terribly difficult, but crime would increase. First of all, if guns were outlawed, only outlaws would have guns. Which means, the criminals would still have their guns, and they'd find ways to get new ones, ammo, and all that anyway. Average Joe Schmoe, however, would suddenly be gunless. Every Joe Schmoe. And the criminals could take full advantage of this. They wouldn't have any reason to be at all nervous burglarizing a house, for instance, because they always have the advantages of superior firepower and surprise.

However, guns sold should be restricted to pistols, and only people who have never had a violent crime on record should be able to get one.

See, was that so hard, Trav?

Also, Trav, spewing insults detracts from your argument

The laws already in place regarding bullet launcher ownership are sufficient for this country. Guns & ammo don't just fall out of the sky, one has to obtain them. Ownership is not a requirement.

Nor a right

No, wait. Scratch that.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
However, guns sold should be restricted to pistols, ?

Borg I liked your post but I'm a little confused are you saying we should not be allowed to own rifles, muzzle loaders, shotguns?

Astra you have to remember one other thing, this is America we are free and we hate it when we loose a freedom. So if you take the gun away it is just like taking another freedom away. Like I have told you in other post guns are a big deal here. Huge money and pass time, take away people's pass time(and money) and what is left. We are loosing freedoms left and right all the time we don't want to loose more. Just take the stupid no smoking law in bars how stupid. If I own a building it should be my right whether I allow smoking or not, not the governments. As long as I own a gun and don't harm anybody else then it should be my business NOT the governments or the U.N's

Originally posted by mad dog
Astra you have to remember one other thing, this is America we are free and we hate it when we loose a freedom. So if you take the gun away it is just like taking another freedom away. Like I have told you in other post guns are a big deal here. Huge money and pass time, take away people's pass time(and money) and what is left. We are loosing freedoms left and right all the time we don't want to loose more. Just take the stupid no smoking law in bars how stupid. If I own a building it should be my right whether I allow smoking or not, not the governments. As long as I own a gun and don't harm anybody else then it should be my business NOT the governments or the U.N's

Funny you should bring up smoking. Newsweek had an article about how many Europeans were upset about talk of banning smoking in public areas because they consider it an important freedom. So I guess it's all a matter of perspective - Amercians should ban guns because they're dangerous, but if you ban their smokes they get bent out of shape because apparently killing people with second-hand smoke isn't a great concern to them.

LionelHutz That is funny.

I'm not a smoker but I don't think the government should be telling people how to run there PRIVATE business. If someone hates smoke that much either don't go out or find a bar that fits your needs.

I would personnally be very happy if the french law that already forbids smoking in public areas was really enforced. It is a nightmare for non smokers like me to find a bar or restaurant where the air is breathable.

Most of this debate seems to focus on freedom. I agree that freedom is very important, but what freedom ? We live in societies where many things are not allowed : we are not free to kill our neighbours, to drive above a certain speed or to build a house in the middle of a wildlife reserve. Total and absolute freedom makes no sense unless you are on a desert island. It has to be limited for the good of other. Our freedom should stop at the point where it starts to represent a threat for other people.

That is why we make laws. In a democratic society, laws are supposed to reflect the common interest. When I read "the government prevents me from doing so and so", it may be true in North Korea or Iran but in our countries it is not the govt that prevents peoplefrom doing things, it is the democratically voted laws. Even if i do not agree with all the laws, that makes a big difference.

Astra - you're overlooking a fine opportunity. Open up a non-smoking bar & restaurant.
Stop worrying about America's privately owned weapons. Those of us that own bullet launchers see it as our Right and that Right shall not be taken away.

You have a point. This is your country and I have no lesson to give you, sure.

On the other other hand, that is what forums are for : exchanging ideas and opinions on various issues.
Anyway, I know no one ever changes opinion by reading others' thoughts on a forum. But at least it obliges everyone (including me) to try and give arguments that makes sense to support their point of view.

Anyway, I know no one ever changes opinion by reading others' thoughts on a forum.
I have. I've changed my mind on many political and religious things since I first started frequenting forums. I went from Catholic to ignorant religion hater, to gnostic, to athiest. And in the political corner I went from ignorant capitalist, to ignorant marxist, to leninist, back to marxist, then to anarcho-communist, to federation-anarchist and am now leveling out at mutualist-anarchist. All from reading intelligent posts on forums. The more you learn, the more you think. In the beginging of it it follows more along the lines of Douglas Adam's quote "You live and learn, well, at any rate you live"

Maybe this is beacuase you are quite young and still likely to change opinion (which is a quality). Probably you would have changed your mind anyway.

But on that forum I have never seen anyone radically change his opinion when it was already formed.

Maybe this is beacuase you are quite young and still likely to change opinion (which is a quality). Probably you would have changed your mind anyway.

Probably, it would have just taken a lot longer.

Astra you bring up good points, like I said don't take my guns away because I have NEVER hurt another with them. As far as the smoking thing, once again if it is your property then you should decide whether or not you want smoking. It is the costumers choice of whether they want to go inside or not. Maybe we should make wal-mart or some of these other stores only sell cetain things. After all I get sick when I walk by the perfume Isle.