OK, so tell me, if you take god out of the government, and guns out of the hands of citizens, as in how the leftists want it, what do you have? Red China, Stalinst Russia, or Nazi Germany, take your pick.

Originally posted by Travh20
OK, so tell me, if you take god out of the government, and guns out of the hands of citizens, as in how the leftists want it, what do you have? Red China, Stalinst Russia, or Nazi Germany, take your pick.

Or any European democracy including France (but i guess this is even worse in your opinion).

Seriously, here in western Europe, the very idea of basing the law upon any religious basis is unthinkable. That does not mean religion is not respected : just that it is a private belief.

I tend to think that this is a good system, but to be honest I am biased since it is the system in which I live. In fact I guess each country should have the system that suits the most its citizens. The USA seem to be a much more religious country that France or Germany, so if you prefer to constantly refer to religion and god and if the majority agrees, why not. But I understand that atheist or even non christian people disagree with that.

And about the gun question and death penalty : on that point, I have absolutely no sympathy or tolerance towards the USA. Call me anti-american if you wish - I am just anti-murder, legal or not. I just cannot understand how a civilized democray like yours still has middle age laws and practice on these points.

Ya, and I dont understand how a country like yours can allow thousands of old people die of heat stroke becasue they cant get a hospital bed in your glorious "free" health care sysytem. Damn sanctimonoious Europeans. And if you look at Europe, it is going to hell in a hand basket. The Arab Muslims (is there a non-Muslim arab? no, they would be killed) are taking over your country, and you cant do a damn thing about it, in 50 years you will be praying for debate about christianity in government, right about the time the Muslim Government goons chain you silly ass to a wall and run you over with a tank for speaking out against Islam in the Govrnment.

The death penalty is a real quandry. Would you rather let the convict sit in jail, on death row, for a decade or more while the legal system jumps through all the hoops...automatic appeals & all that costing the taxpayers tons of money, or give a lfe sentence put the miscreant in gen pop & be done with him? No special treatment for living on death row, good chance somebody will kill him anyway, one way or another, and put that money elsewhere? Take the morals right out of the picture, look at the money spent. Those millions saved in legal fees could go toward something else. I well understand capital punishment, and have long supported it's use. As money grows tight, life in prison without the possibility of parole looks better & better every day.

Originally posted by Travh20
OK, so tell me, if you take god out of the government, and guns out of the hands of citizens, as in how the leftists want it, what do you have? Red China, Stalinst Russia, or Nazi Germany, take your pick.

Those countries all tried to eliminate religion within the borders of the country, not just within the government. Not even the kooky hard-core liberals are talking about bulldozing churches (Janet Reno's little excapade in Waco aside).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by astrapol2
I tend to think that this is a good system, but to be honest I am biased since it is the system in which I live. In fact I guess each country should have the system that suits the most its citizens. The USA seem to be a much more religious country that France or Germany, so if you prefer to constantly refer to religion and god and if the majority agrees, why not. But I understand that atheist or even non christian people disagree with that.

I do have to say that I'm surprised that no one has suggested an amendment to the Constitution specifically making it OK to mix the church and state.

And about the gun question and death penalty : on that point, I have absolutely no sympathy or tolerance towards the USA. Call me anti-american if you wish - I am just anti-murder, legal or not. I just cannot understand how a civilized democray like yours still has middle age laws and practice on these points.

I struggle with the issue somewhat. Back in the days when I was a liberal (I'm smarter now) I would've agreed with you, but I really have a hard time looking at someone like Tim McVeigh who killed 138 men, women, and children because of some strange views about the government and thinking that this is someone that deserves to live. I also struggle with the issue of abortion, but I'll go ahead and make the argument anyway - how can European countries be so anti-capital punishment and yet not be bothered by abortion?

Originally posted by Travh20
Ya, and I dont understand how a country like yours can allow thousands of old people die of heat stroke (…)
And if you look at Europe, it is going to hell in a hand basket. The Arab Muslims (is there a non-Muslim arab? no, they would be killed) are taking over your country,(…)

I never prentended to live in a perfect place. Sure we have many problems to deal with in France, and the way old people are treated here is a major issue (loneliness proved to be more deadly than the lack of beds in hospitals)

Immigration in my opinion is not a real problem here, it has been only been used by fra right as a scapegoat. And most of my "arab" - in fact north african- friends are not specially muslims.

Now, back to the topic.

If you really are a christian, I cannot understand how you can support death penalty.
ES347 gave rational arguments in favor of death penalty, and while I do not agree with him, his position makes sense. But if you believe that the law of God should be superior to human laws, your position is very difficult to hold.

Originally posted by astrapol2
And about the gun question and death penalty : on that point, I have absolutely no sympathy or tolerance towards the USA. Call me anti-american if you wish - I am just anti-murder, legal or not. I just cannot understand how a civilized democray like yours still has middle age laws and practice on these points.

I'm somewhat mixed up here Astrapol2, are you saying gun owners are killers or are you just talking about the death penalty?

Maybe we will need a new topic started just about the death penalty, and whether it is wrong or right(I believe we had a thread on it not to long ago)

I admit I was not very clear. Of course I do not believe that all (or even most of) gun owners are murderers.
But IMO all guns should be banned, or at least their ownerwhip and use should be extermely restricted.
I just follow your suggestion and open a new thread about this.

You will never understnad atropol. Human law is based on gods law, that what we have been talking about this whole time. That's whre the argument comes in.

I perfectly understand the subject of that discussion. And
a- I believe human laws should be based on common interest and voted in a democratic procedure, and not be inspired by any religious text, even if I recognize many religious texts have some wisdom that can inspire human laws.
b- I just wanted to point out the incoherence of supporting both the 10 commandements and death penalty.

What do you think about supporting abortion and being against the death penalty?

From a christian point of view, I think it makes sense to be against abortion too.

Originally posted by astrapol2
From a christian point of view, I think it makes sense to be against abortion too. He didnt ask about a christian point of view. He was asking if you thought that europeans, who are against capitol punishment, were hypocrites for being pro-abortion. This is the third time this question has been framed to you. Why are you having so many problems answering it?

In my opinion, abortion should be authorised and death penalty illegal. Because I believe that abortion is a decision that should be left to the mother. If the mother is christian and beleives it is a sin to abort, she may not choose do do so, but that a law obliges a woman to have a baby she does not want seems to me a bad thing. It can cause a lot of suffering and harm.

I am ready to debate abortion on another thread if you wish, even though this has been debated over and over in the past.

Death penalty, though, is a very different thing. It is the possibility to kill someone legally. It is not intended to avoid suffering but to punish. I think no civilized society should kill its members, whatever they have done. My main argument is moral here.
There are many other reasons to ba against this sentence (the possiblity of a mistake, the total unefficiency of this penalty to reduce crime, the international laws).

Originally posted by astrapol2
In my opinion, abortion should be authorised and death penalty illegal. Because I believe that abortion is a decision that should be left to the mother. If the mother is christian and beleives it is a sin to abort, she may not choose do do so, but that a law obliges a woman to have a baby she does not want seems to me a bad thing. It can cause a lot of suffering and harm.

I am ready to debate abortion on another thread if you wish, even though this has been debated over and over in the past.

Death penalty, though, is a very different thing. It is the possibility to kill someone legally. It is not intended to avoid suffering but to punish. I think no civilized society should kill its members, whatever they have done. My main argument is moral here.
There are many other reasons to ba against this sentence (the possiblity of a mistake, the total unefficiency of this penalty to reduce crime, the international laws). So lets get this straight. You are for being able to kill an innocent life but against killing convicted murdrers? That makes no sense. :rolleyes:

My point is not to debate abortion but rather to point out that you're no less of a hypocrit than Americans are. Whether abortion is a "choice" or not isn't really the issue. And I at least feel compelled to point out that the fetus hasn't done anything to deserve being aborted, whereas the murderer has.

As I said before, I tend to waffle on both of these issues personally, but I'm feeling a bit of a superiority vibe from you which bugs me a little.

Originally posted by HaVoK
So lets get this straight. You are for being able to kill an innocent life but against killing convicted murdrers? That makes no sense. :rolleyes:

I see the thing differently. The problem for me is not the guilt or innocence. IMO nobody, even the worst criminal, DESERVES to die. Every human death is a drama. Abortion is a drama, ans personally I think it should be avoided whenever possible.

The problem is the social and human consequences. In the case of an abortion, a bith can sometimes result in more trouble than an abortion. In the case of the death penalty, I do not see any social justification that would necessit to kill someone.

Well I'll get back on the topic seeing it has gone from a statue to abortion :rolleyes: I saw on the news this morning they did remove the stone........

Yes they did. Finally.

(btw, Thanks, mad dog. ;))

That judge still needs to have his head examined.

Yep, they removed it. However, those non-religious types really shouldn’t be gloating over this victory. To me, it just demonstrates how insecure and senselessly threatened they all feel.

We don't feel insecure or senselessly threatened, we just feel that religion should have nothing to do with government. Which is what it says in the Constitution, btw...

Like I said before, just because the Ten Commandments were there didn’t mean you had to look at them. Either way, it’s gone now, so you all can stop whining.

I thought they threw it in the closet...