A Challenge to All Christians

Is the Bible true? Are its verses correct in every word, being inspired by God? Or is the bible mythology, the flawed word of primitive men? Or are some parts inspired, and some parts flawed? If so, which parts are true and which parts are false, and how can one determine which is which?


Mark 16:18; “They will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” (NIV)

“They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” (KJV)

According to the New Testament of the Christian Bible, they (people who believe in Jesus Christ) can handle snakes, presumably poisonous ones, without harm.

With this claim, religious faith enters the realm of testable science!!

Thus, I hereby issue a challenge for Bible believers to show their "faith".


Is Mark 16:18 a lie? Does the Holy Bible contain a falsehood? Is it telling you that you, as a true believer, can do something extremely dangerous without risk?

All Christians who claim belief in Jesus Christ are hereby challenged to handle a rattlesnake without physical protection, or drink a glass of arsenic (or any positively lethal substance), and seek no medical assistance afterward.

The act must be performed in the presence of skeptical observers, and for authenticity, skeptics should provide the snake and/or poison as well. Well, is your faith strong enough? Do you really believe as strongly as you think you do?

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The following article first appeared in Freethought Today, Vol. 15, No. 9.

Bite Kills Snake-handling Minister

A preacher, whose wife died three years ago from a snakebite, succumbed himself on Oct. 3, after handling a 3-foot-long timber rattler during a prayer meeting.

John Wayne “Punkin” Brown Jr., 34, of Tennessee, was bitten on the hand while preaching at the Rocky House Holiness Church in rural Alabama. He continued preaching for ten or 15 minutes after being bitten, then fell dead from the pulpit. His wife Melinda, 28, died in 1994 two days after refusing medical attention following a rattlesnake bite during a church service in Kentucky.

“He was really looking forward to that day anyway” when he could see his wife again, opined the Rev. Carl Porter of Kingston, Georgia, to the Birmingham News. Porter plans to pass along Brown’s two rattlers to Brown’s brother, by the way.

The Browns had five children.

There have been at least 75 snake-handling deaths among fundamentalists in the United States during this Century.


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This event is submitted as clearcut EVIDENCE that the sacred scriptures are untrue.

Some may say, “He was not a true believer.” Well, I submit that he was. He believed strongly enough to handle the snake. He was a minister. He had given over his life for his beliefs. He followed the word of God to the letter, and put his complete trust in the scripture. HE certainly thought that he believed. What more proof of belief could be provided? If that is not true belief, what is? Is your belief so strong?

Others may protest that he should not have tested the Lord. Well, it was the Lord, presumably, who inspired Mark (or whoever really wrote that book) to include that verse. After all, it is claimed that the scriptures are the inspired word of God. If God did not intend that people should make use of that verse as a guide for their lives, why did He include it at all? What other purpose could it possibly serve?

Some people suggest that this verse only applied to the original Apostles. BUT, that statement finds no support in scripture. If one reads verses 16 and 17, it becomes clear that Jesus was speaking about "them that believe", those that are baptized and saved. It does not say anything about the original Apostles being the only ones who can drink poison and handle snakes.

Preachers certainly make use of the second half of the verse “they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” You need only to turn on late night TV to see the proliferation of faith-healing charlatans, milking the public of their hard-earned funds, by pretending to heal their sicknesses. Why then should the first half of the verse Mark 16:18 be metaphorical, and the second half of it be literal? Such an argument is an avoidance of the irrationality of the philosophy. This is one more example of the harm that literal belief in the Bible can produce.

Just food for thought. ------- http://www.freethought.mbdojo.com/snakebite.html

According to Christian tradition, "snakes" or "serpents" have traditionally represented pagans or Druids. Haven't you ever heard about how St. Patrick "drove the 'snakes' out of Ireland"? I guarantee you they're not referring to actual snakes.

Only stupid fundamentalists take the Bible literally.

According to Christian tradition, "snakes" or "serpents" have traditionally represented pagans or Druids ..... I guarantee you they're not referring to actual snakes.

LOL. I've heard some apologetic nonsense, but this one wins the prize.

Here is the verse;

“They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

Are you really going to try to convince me that what the Biblical verse in question actually meant to convey was --


“They shall pick up pagans or Druids; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them” ..............?!?!?!?

Do you have any inkling how utterly nonsensical it is to try to equate the action of 'picking up a Druid' with the action of 'drinking deadly poison'?!?!?

The two actions of *picking up a poisonous snake* and *drinking poison*, on the other hand, ARE related to one another.

LOL. I've heard some apologetic nonsense, but this one wins the prize.

Here is the verse;

“They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

Are you really going to try to convince me that what the Biblical verse in question actually meant to convey was --


“They shall pick up pagans or Druids; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them” ..............?!?!?!?

Do you have any inkling how utterly nonsensical it is to try to equate the action of 'picking up a Druid' with the action of 'drinking deadly poison'?!?!?

The two actions of *picking up a poisonous snake* and *drinking poison*, on the other hand, ARE related to one another.

Everything in the Bible was written as allegory, to teach people how to live their lives. Essentially it is a book of stories with morals--fables, if you will. People have always taken the Bible too seriously, and I think Christians are mostly a little nutty to do so.

Christians are a faithful group of people. Faith is the glue of their religion, and others as well. The Bible presents a guide for them to live their lives. Most do not believe that the Bible is literal. They just simply have faith in the Lord. What gets me the most is those Christians, and those of other religions as well, that try and get you to convert. Sometimes it sounds like they are trying to sell you a car. They say things like, oh our religion is best because our god forgives all, or our religion comes with this, this, and this. Kinda stupid. What gets me most about Christianity is the fact that one can sin all his life, do the most dasterdly of deeds, but as long as he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour before he dies, hes going to Heaven.

Christians are a faithful group of people. Faith is the glue of their religion, and others as well. The Bible presents a guide for them to live their lives. Most do not believe that the Bible is literal. They just simply have faith in the Lord. What gets me the most is those Christians, and those of other religions as well, that try and get you to convert. Sometimes it sounds like they are trying to sell you a car. They say things like, oh our religion is best because our god forgives all, or our religion comes with this, this, and this. Kinda stupid. What gets me most about Christianity is the fact that one can sin all his life, do the most dasterdly of deeds, but as long as he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour before he dies, hes going to Heaven.
What gets me most about Christianity is the fact that one can sin all his life, do the most dastardly of deeds, but if he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour before he dies, hes going to Heaven.

who knows the hour of his death? salvation isn't something you can put off to the last minute.

Thus, I hereby issue a challenge for Bible believers to show their "faith".


Is Mark 16:18 a lie? Does the Holy Bible contain a falsehood? Is it telling you that you, as a true believer, can do something extremely dangerous without risk?

All Christians who claim belief in Jesus Christ are hereby challenged to handle a rattlesnake without physical protection, or drink a glass of arsenic (or any positively lethal substance), and seek no medical assistance afterward.

The act must be performed in the presence of skeptical observers, and for authenticity, skeptics should provide the snake and/or poison as well. Well, is your faith strong enough? Do you really believe as strongly as you think you do?


The following article first appeared in Freethought Today, Vol. 15, No. 9.

Bite Kills Snake-handling Minister

A preacher, whose wife died three years ago from a snakebite, succumbed himself on Oct. 3, after handling a 3-foot-long timber rattler during a prayer meeting.

John Wayne “Punkin” Brown Jr., 34, of Tennessee, was bitten on the hand while preaching at the Rocky House Holiness Church in rural Alabama. He continued preaching for ten or 15 minutes after being bitten, then fell dead from the pulpit. His wife Melinda, 28, died in 1994 two days after refusing medical attention following a rattlesnake bite during a church service in Kentucky.



Some may say, “He was not a true believer.” Well, I submit that he was. He believed strongly enough to handle the snake. He was a minister. He had given over his life for his beliefs. He followed the word of God to the letter, and put his complete trust in the scripture. HE certainly thought that he believed. What more proof of belief could be provided? If that is not true belief, what is? Is your belief so strong?


if Jesus was unwilling to test God, who am i to?
Matthew 4:7

Yea, I'm not biting on FT's stuff...

I believe... call me what you will... but i believe...

http://subintsoc.net/images/xwingpilots/darth-optimism.jpg

:D :D :D

I love it!

What gets me most about Christianity is the fact that one can sin all his life, do the most dastardly of deeds, but if he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour before he dies, hes going to Heaven.

who knows the hour of his death? salvation isn't something you can put off to the last minute.

One cannot know the hour of his death. I mean obviously if your ill, and you know you are going to die, you can call in a priest to help you. But if you die in an accident its different. I meant it in the sense that as long as you accept him at any point, you will be saved. Maybe being saved is more complicated than simply, all be it genuinely, accepting Christ. but from what I got out of Christianity, thats what Ive come to understand. Enlighten me if Im wrong.

Im not a God hating person here, I believe in some sort of higher power, I just do not prescribe to any particular religion. I think organized religion is one of the main reasons the world is so messed up these days. Its good that it brings hope to people, and I do not look down on people who practice religion. However religion has done just as many bad things to the world, as good.

I believe...

But evidently not enough to drink poison, per Biblical instruction.

__________________

"It is a safe and fair theory to say that the Grand Canyon was created in 40 days." _______gmsisko1

I came across this one the other day...

Proverbs 26
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Contradiction or poetic licence?

I don't know that I would say that religion has done as many bad things as good things. The bad things that religions do gets a lot more press, but the good things go on in pastoral work by little village pastors and priests and rabbis pretty much unnoticed.

I don't know that I would say that religion has done as many bad things as good things. The bad things that religions do gets a lot more press, but the good things go on in pastoral work by little village pastors and priests and rabbis pretty much unnoticed.I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with this thread but it does seem many of your posts involve sweeping generalisations targetted at non-religious people. Certainly on this forum and in my country and amongst my own peers that generalisation is not the case - people, believers or not, have a rather more balanced and mature opinion of religion in my personal experience.

I'm a little amazed: you are talking to me about balance--and that was what I tried to insert--a little balance. I guess one person's balance is another's imbalance, especially when it doesn't serve their agenda.

I made the point that religions do a lot of good in the world--indeed they do more good than harm. Do you disagree with this? If so, kindly be honest and say so and we can discuss it.

On that topic, frankly I get tired of all the horror mongering about religion when some of the greatest horrors of the twentieth century were committed by avowed atheists (ever hear of Pol Pot or Joseph Stalin?).

Funny how an atheist choses to debate a bible story that talks about handling snakes and drinking poison, yet refuses to believe the most popular verse in the world:

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Either you believe or you don't guys. It's your soul.

Oh wait... that's right... you don't believe in things you can't prove, do you?

Nevermind.

I don't believe it, either. What sort of god demands a human sacrifice?

The idea of the sacrifice, it seems to me, comes from magical thinking--a sin requires a compensating negation--pure compensatory magic. An all powerful being would have no need for such stuff.

You make one excellent point though--the story of Adam and Eve is not about a talking snake. That can all be seen as allegory--even the Cross can be seen as allegory. The message is one of God's love, and whether it is in literal terms (a crude, unfortunate set of myths) or as an elevated spiritual allegory depends on where one's spirit lives.

I don't believe it, either. What sort of god demands a human sacrifice?

The idea of the sacrifice, it seems to me, comes from magical thinking--a sin requires a compensating negation--pure compensatory magic. An all powerful being would have no need for such stuff.

You make one excellent point though--the story of Adam and Eve is not about a talking snake. That can all be seen as allegory--even the Cross can be seen as allegory. The message is one of God's love, and whether it is in literal terms (a crude, unfortunate set of myths) or as an elevated spiritual allegory depends on where one's spirit lives.

Good post.

Funny how an atheist choses to debate a bible story that talks about handling snakes and drinking poison, yet refuses to believe the most popular verse in the world:

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Either you believe or you don't guys. It's your soul.

Oh wait... that's right... you don't believe in things you can't prove, do you?

Nevermind.
Since lhis logic is so irrefutable, I'm going to use it for a little gambit of my own.

I love each and every one of you and if you all would just believe in me and send me a minor tithe of 10% of your pre-tax income (it's a tax write-off people!) I will save your soul forever, and it can live on with me for all eternity after you die!

No, I can't prove that I can do that, you retard! You're supposed to believe anyway! Let's see those checks in the mail!

Since lhis logic is so irrefutable, I'm going to use it for a little gambit of my own.

I love each and every one of you and if you all would just believe in me and send me a minor tithe of 10% of your pre-tax income (it's a tax write-off people!) I will save your soul forever, and it can live on with me for all eternity after you die!

No, I can't prove that I can do that, you retard! You're supposed to believe anyway! Let's see those checks in the mail!
Matthew 7:15 - 23 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

An Overview: Signs of a False Prophet

1. They equate their leaders' words with the Scripture.
2. They reject authentic doctrinal Christian teaching.
3. They emphasize an experience over Scripture.
4. They require busyness from their members.
5. They demand absolute conformity.
6. They pressure often for funds. They often have a large overhead. The leaders tend to live lavishly.
7. They elevate themselves over others.

If the shoe fits, Nappy...

All hail Napsterbater, All hail Napsterbater...

This calls for a human sacrafice, FT where are you? heh

Fuck yeah, bitches! I will save yo' souls! I will even consecrate your first-born daughters too, for no added charge! She will feel the power of the LORD!

Ft, if an 11th commandment is written in stone that says "thou shalt drink poison".. then i'd know it was a hoax anyway.

Hey, you can not believe all you want.. but your agenda and journey to try to bash anyone who does believe is of poor taste. Now, i'm not saying that I have never been of poor taste, because quite frankly my sense of humor is pretty out there... but hey, why don't you just let people be what they are?

Good point, Decka, but we have to keep controversial subjects going here or where else could Nappy put on his party-clown outfit and display the bubbles coming out of his butt?

What gets me most about Christianity is the fact that one can sin all his life, do the most dastardly of deeds, but if he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour before he dies, he is going to Heaven.
Who knows the hour of his death? Salvation isn't something you can put off to the last minute.

That thing about going to Heaven as soon as you convert/repent is just another FAIRY TALE, I do believe there is a HEAVEN though I include the "ever returning principle" until you make it right to finally have any access to the so called HEAVEN. Just imagine that BUSH or BLAIR at the end of their days say they repent of all their crimes and automatically go to this place.... I am sure they will go through HELL (I don't believe it exists, at least not in the way most fanatics think of it) for quite sometime, and then return, this time with another chance to make it right. (But for God's sake, not as President/Prime Minister/Dictators again!).

Roffleskates. (I'm going to have to thank the guy I stole that from!)

I normally let sleeping dogs lie on the god issue. They want to believe in that tripe, I just let them. I even forgive them their countless, "I'm going to pray for you tonights," I get from all of them when I do something that's even the slightest bit controversial. It's too much damn energy to win an argument with people who want to purposefully blindfold themselves like that. More trouble than it's worth.

But online? Shit, all I have to do to ridicule the Christian point of view is to pretend I'm the next Jesus? That all I have to sign up for? I'm all on board that one!

See, I don't believe that each faith is just as good as the other, or the lack thereof. You Christians like to proclaim that we atheists should be tolerant of your religion, when you're the most intolerant fuckers out there! You're the first ones to knock on Islam, or pagan faiths, or atheism. You're always the first ones throwing stones at everyone else.

No, I believe that atheism is better than theism. And I will not be silent in the face of argument to the contrary, like SMW's stupid scripture quoting tripe.

Roffleskates. (I'm going to have to thank the guy I stole that from!)

I normally let sleeping dogs lie on the god issue. They want to believe in that tripe, I just let them. I even forgive them their countless, "I'm going to pray for you tonights," I get from all of them when I do something that's even the slightest bit controversial. It's too much damn energy to win an argument with people who want to purposefully blindfold themselves like that. More trouble than it's worth.

But online? Shit, all I have to do to ridicule the Christian point of view is to pretend I'm the next Jesus? That all I have to sign up for? I'm all on board that one!

See, I don't believe that each faith is just as good as the other, or the lack thereof. You Christians like to proclaim that we atheists should be tolerant of your religion, when you're the most intolerant fuckers out there! You're the first ones to knock on Islam, or pagan faiths, or atheism. You're always the first ones throwing stones at everyone else.

No, I believe that atheism is better than theism. And I will not be silent in the face of argument to the contrary, like SMW's stupid scripture quoting tripe.

You have a good point there. Christians like to act like martyrs all the time and pretend that they are the ones who are discriminated against, when in reality they discriminate against everyone else.

You have a good point there. Christians like to act like martyrs all the time and pretend that they are the ones who are discriminated against, when in reality they discriminate against everyone else.
A CHALLENGE TO ALL CHRISTIANS is not exactly letting sleeping dogs lie, now is it?

Are you saying, DF, that you've personally been discriminated against by a Christian? Could you give us an example of how?

(Or are you just siding with Nappy-poo so he'll think you're like, cool?)

Whoever happens to be the majority in power at any one point in time, will abuse that power. That's what democracy is supposed to prevent, but it gets perverted when the majority wants the minority to "respect" their point of view, when all they really want is free reign to undermine all their perceived enemies.

You know it's happening, when the free exchange of ideas gets turned around, and everybody must be forced to put up with things like ten commandments displays and nativity scene depictions, because of a warped perversion of free expression.

A CHALLENGE TO ALL CHRISTIANS is not exactly letting sleeping dogs lie, now is it?

Are you saying, DF, that you've personally been discriminated against by a Christian? Could you give us an example of how?

(Or are you just siding with Nappy-poo so he'll think you're like, cool?)
I thought this thread was completely out of line, and I defended the Bible when FT was insulting it. Or did you not notice that?

And yes I have been targeted, and I suppose discriminated against, by Christians. I've been called a whore, told that I'm going to hell, told that I deserved to die because I don't believe in Jesus... Should I go on?

"I thought this thread was completely out of line, and I defended the Bible when FT was insulting it. Or did you not notice that?"

Yes, I did notice that. I also noticed you jumped on Nappy's bandwagon when he started bad-mouthing Christians... thus my question about whether you really feel the things you say, or say things you think people (of the moment) want to hear? In this case, I think it was the latter.

Sorry you feel you've been discriminated against because some people don't agree with your life choices and have verbalized the consequences (as they see them) to you. That's one of the prices we have to pay when we start making our own decisions, eh? Not everybody will think we make smart choices and most won't hesitate to tell you what they think... christian or not.

Sorry you feel you've been discriminated against because some people don't agree with your life choices and have verbalized the consequences (as they see them) to you. That's one of the prices we have to pay when we start making our own decisions, eh? Not everybody will think we make smart choices and most won't hesitate to tell you what they think... christian or not.
So, let me get this straight, we shouldn't badmouth Christians even though they aren't afraid to badmouth us? All because you think it's childish? But we should put up with them badmouthing us because you think they're right?

The first few times I called you a stupid cow I was just messing around. I'm starting to really believe it now.

"I thought this thread was completely out of line, and I defended the Bible when FT was insulting it. Or did you not notice that?"

Yes, I did notice that. I also noticed you jumped on Nappy's bandwagon when he started bad-mouthing Christians... thus my question about whether you really feel the things you say, or say things you think people (of the moment) want to hear? In this case, I think it was the latter.

Sorry you feel you've been discriminated against because some people don't agree with your life choices and have verbalized the consequences (as they see them) to you. That's one of the prices we have to pay when we start making our own decisions, eh? Not everybody will think we make smart choices and most won't hesitate to tell you what they think... christian or not.

Excuse me? I like and respect the real, good Christians who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, and who respect me. I do NOT hate Christians, even though most of the ones I've met seem to hate me. I was not trying to badmouth your religion, I was just saying that Christians generally don't seem to shy away from insulting other religions, but they seem to think that theirs is beyond rebuke. I don't know if you are one of them, but you certainly don't seem to shy away from insulting me, and if I was inclined to snap judgments, I might conclude that you are one of those hypocrites.

Who's WE, Nappy? You personally? Atheists in general? What a dumb statement.

In an ideal world, nobody would badmouth anybody. But in the real world, you're free to think I'm a stupid cow for believing in God and I'm free to think you're a partyclown with bubbles coming out of your butt for playing Jesus on a message board in an attempt to 'incite the believers' and entertain those who think you're clever... all one of them.

Don't you have a hotshot to deliver someplace?

Who's WE, Nappy? You personally? Atheists in general? What a dumb statement.

In an ideal world, nobody would badmouth anybody. But in the real world, you're free to think I'm a stupid cow for believing in God and I'm free to think you're a partyclown with bubbles coming out of your butt for playing Jesus on a message board in an attempt to 'incite the believers' and entertain those who think you're clever... all one of them.

Don't you have a hotshot to deliver someplace?
You're not a stupid cow, nor do I think you're worthy of hate. I also think that Napster's little Jesus masquerade is neither clever nor entertaining. I assume that it was me to whom you were referring with "those who think [Napster's] clever... all one of them.]", so just so you know, I was not amused.

"I like and respect the real, good Christians who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, and who respect me."

Guess the real challenge is in learning to tell the difference between us mortal Christians and those real, good ones.

No offense intended, DF. It's just hard to play both sides from the middle when you're dealing with a touchy subject like religion. And IMHO, you're definitely trying to do just that.

Who's WE, Nappy? You personally? Atheists in general? What a dumb statement.

Anyone not a Christian.

In an ideal world, nobody would badmouth anybody. But in the real world, you're free to think I'm a stupid cow for believing in God and I'm free to think you're a partyclown with bubbles coming out of your butt for playing Jesus on a message board in an attempt to 'incite the believers' and entertain those who think you're clever... all one of them.

Don't you have a hotshot to deliver someplace?
I don't think you're a stupid cow for believing in God. Hello? *knocks on SMWs head* Anybody in there? Try again, sweetheart.

"I like and respect the real, good Christians who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, and who respect me."

Guess the real challenge is in learning to tell the difference between us mortal Christians and those real, good ones.

No offense intended, DF. It's just hard to play both sides from the middle when you're dealing with a touchy subject like religion. And IMHO, you're definitely trying to do just that.

I'm not playing both sides. I respect those who respect me, regardless of their religion, and I think that those Christians who really follow Jesus' teachings (love thy neighbor as thyself?) do respect me, regardless of the fact that I am not a Christian. What I don't like are Christians who disrespect everyone who is not a Christian, for no other reason. And BTW, I never said that you were one of those. I don't know you at all.

It's still a dumb statement, Nappy. Anyone not a Christian covers alot of ground. I'm a pedestrian... does that count for anything?

I'm a pedestrian... does that count for anything?
Are you a Christian pedestrian? *shakes head sadly*

Are you a Christian pedestrian? *shakes head sadly*
Yes, let's call me that. It's so much more religious than stupid cow. (You know, in some cultures, cows are sacred. But I'm sure you didn't mean to go there, did you?)

*moo*

*moo*
:lolhit: Nice.

You have a good point there. Christians like to act like martyrs all the time and pretend that they are the ones who are discriminated against, when in reality they discriminate against everyone else.

That is pride and ego getting in the way of religious beliefs..

a big part of christianity is humility.. sadly American culture looks down on humility, and tells you that if you don't start being cocky, and say you are "the greatest"... than you won't even be noticed.

America is a bad place for christians to be, the culture is so anti-christian that it makes em stand out like a sore thumb.

But then again, christians ARE supposed to "stand out"... It's not easy being different, but then again, what if you DO get a big reward after you die?

That is pride and ego getting in the way of religious beliefs..

a big part of christianity is humility.. sadly American culture looks down on humility, and tells you that if you don't start being cocky, and say you are "the greatest"... than you won't even be noticed.

America is a bad place for christians to be, the culture is so anti-christian that it makes em stand out like a sore thumb.

But then again, christians ARE supposed to "stand out"... It's not easy being different, but then again, what if you DO get a big reward after you die?
I agree that American culture seems to be, strangely since we have a Christian majority, at odds with a lot of tenets of the Christian faith.

I'm a little amazed: you are talking to me about balance--and that was what I tried to insert--a little balance.We have balance here at all forums, and from what I can see we have a diversity of views in this very thread.

More generally, we have a group of regular contributors who have widely different philosophies and backgrounds and yet are very open-minded, tolerant and down right kind to one another. There are theists and mystics here I think very highly of, and I have had enough positive feedback and interaction with them to know the same is true in reverse. I'm not saying everyone and I'm not saying always but overall I think many others here would agree.

That said, this thread seems to me to be a discussion about the literal truth or otherwise of the bible, and your post seemed an off-topic axe-grinding against non-believers.

I made the point that religions do a lot of good in the world--indeed they do more good than harm. Do you disagree with this? If so, kindly be honest and say so and we can discuss it.I have quite positive opinion of religion, its history and its benefits as other posters on this forum who know me would probably testify. In particular I am grateful to the Jesuits for starting the education system as we know it; to Christian monks for carrying the candle of human knowledge through the dark ages; to a particular baptist church in England for giving my own mother a new lease of life in her retirement years, and on it goes.

On that topic, frankly I get tired of all the horror mongering about religion when some of the greatest horrors of the twentieth century were committed by avowed atheists (ever hear of Pol Pot or Joseph Stalin?).
I heartily agree and am forever crying "North Korea!" to atheists who claim a world without religion would be a better place. I think it would be a horrible, bleak and oppressive world.

May I warmly invite you to get to know the forum and the people here rather than operating on stereotypes that you seem to associate with the word "atheist".

Yes, let's call me that. It's so much more religious than stupid cow. (You know, in some cultures, cows are sacred. But I'm sure you didn't mean to go there, did you?)

*moo*
You want to be a stupid, sacred cow? You know, us atheists like to grill us a sacred cow once a month! Game?

You want to be a stupid, sacred cow? You know, us atheists like to grill us a sacred cow once a month! Game?

Give it a rest Napster.

Here it goes again. *starts dancing on treadmills*

Give it a rest Napster.
He did start it but she didn't have to continue it. He'll stop when she ignores him.

Not that I'm on his side or anything, but she's mean to me. :(

Here it goes again.

Yeah I know, you just have no control over what you say. I'm geting pretty fed up with warning you too. Consider this your last one.

Whatever you say, man...

Funny how an atheist choses to debate a bible story that talks about handling snakes and drinking poison,......

Nice attempt at misdirection.....but then, you HAVE admitted to being a religionist, so it isn't at all surprising.

Nothing "funny" about it. I am not **choosing to debate** a Bible story at all. I'm with you all the WAY on this one. I want to see that powerful "belief" that the Biblicists supposedly possess confirmed once and for all.

I am inviting all you True Believers!http://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/images/nav/registered_symbol.gifout there to put your money (well, actually just your hand) where your mouth is, and prove that you believe what Yahweh has told you!

The Biblical God says you can handle serpents and drink poison, and suffer NO harm.........so get with it!

Who'll be the first to prove be hears and believes what God says, and pick up a rattlesnake, or drink a bottle of rat poison....?!

Have any of the Christians here done it yet??..........well geepers...why NOT?!!!!?

The Bible says you can.....gosh, I'm beginning to wonder if any of you actually "believe" like you claim to.......?!

"Either you believe or you don't", someone once said.

Oh wait... that's right... you "believe" the parts of the Bible that you like and simply discard the rest.

Nevermind.

"May I warmly invite you to get to know the forum and the people here rather than operating on stereotypes that you seem to associate with the word "atheist"." --Blob

That is a little puzzling, since you plainly have not gotten to know me and are operating on a stereotype with me. Although one can get into definitional problems, I certainly identify myself as an atheist.

I don't reject the idea of God, and I like trying to see what consequences might flow from such a being's existence, but I don't think it exists--I am relatively sure of it.

Gods are speculations, and as such a source of entertainment for those who like difficult puzzles, but in the meantime we have to tend our garden.

Well, from what I've seen here, what I said way back on the first page still stands. Organized religion does more harm than good? I mean its impossible for people from opposite sides of the religious spectrum to have a peaceful conversation. Granted this thread was founded on a shaky subject by FT (one that I dont particularly dissagree with) I wouldnt have really expected the conversation to be peaceful. But people that were not FT start to arguee about what they believe and such, defending their various views, and now there will be bad blood between those 3-4 people. Its a never ending cycle if you ask me. Just accepting what it is that everyone else believes seems to be an impossibility. If you guys had been world leaders I bet you'd be having a religious war right about now. I mean, if the God of your religion is so high and mighty, and your religion says there is a hell, why even worry about it? Why not let the blasphemers be judged by God and go to hell for their sins. Why is it your place to argue for him, or even kill for him? I just do not understand.

Look, I'm all for a peaceful exchange of ideas. When Christians finally get that my saying their religion is a fraud should be given every bit as much respect as their proselytizing, then finally will bad blood cease to persist. But as long as they use their numbers and their proclivity of whining whenever things don't go their way, to force a one-sided conversation between themselves and members of other faiths and non-believers, I will be there to be that uncomfortable nagging voice forcing respect out of their unrepentant arses.

"May I warmly invite you to get to know the forum and the people here rather than operating on stereotypes that you seem to associate with the word "atheist"." --Blob

That is a little puzzling, since you plainly have not gotten to know me and are operating on a stereotype with me. Although one can get into definitional problems, I certainly identify myself as an atheist.No puzzle and no stereotype. I am not making generalisations or steroetyping based on this or that label, I am appealing to you to reconsider your own generalisations, such as:

the typical atheist or materialist is way too glib about the answers
...
Of course that is what atheists say, and reflects, I fear, a deep misunderstanding
...
there is more to existence than the mechanical ("materialist") atheist would permit

Although to be fair you did elsewhere come to acknowledge that the atheists here (not all of them, admittedly) are "sophisticated" I think is the word you used. So kudos for that one.

Well, from what I've seen here, what I said way back on the first page still stands. Organized religion does more harm than good? I mean its impossible for people from opposite sides of the religious spectrum to have a peaceful conversation. Granted this thread was founded on a shaky subject by FT (one that I dont particularly dissagree with) I wouldnt have really expected the conversation to be peaceful. But people that were not FT start to arguee about what they believe and such, defending their various views, and now there will be bad blood between those 3-4 people. Its a never ending cycle if you ask me. Just accepting what it is that everyone else believes seems to be an impossibility. If you guys had been world leaders I bet you'd be having a religious war right about now. I mean, if the God of your religion is so high and mighty, and your religion says there is a hell, why even worry about it? Why not let the blasphemers be judged by God and go to hell for their sins. Why is it your place to argue for him, or even kill for him? I just do not understand.
Might it be only that arguing about religion does harm, and that you take this as evidence that all religion does harm?

Might it be only that arguing about religion does harm, and that you take this as evidence that all religion does harm?
It's not just that arguing about religion does harm, it's also that religion creates divisions in society that would otherwise not exist. Whenever people group themselves together it inevitably creates conflict at some level between the groups. Religion just acts as another factor by which people divide themselves. (A perfect example of this can be seen in Iraq. There's almost nothing that distinguishes the Sunnis and Shiites there apart from their religious beliefs.)

What you are saying is that sectarianism causes harm; that is a difficult thesis to argue with, since most of the time it does do harm.

I think maybe you identify religion and sectarianism because of the exclusive claims made by many (but not all and maybe even not most) Christians--to the effect that they have the truth and are God's chosen and everyone else is excluded.

As a characteristic of religion, this attitude is unique in the West. Buddhism and Confucianism and Taoism have gotten along fine for over a thousand years in China. This is because the three systems of thought are seen as supplementary, not competing, and one can easily practice all three without being excommunicated (in fact I know of no practice like excommunication).

I would point out that sectarianism is not unique to Christians (and their spiritual relatives, the Muslims). It is also found among atheists (and "ideological purity" is a torchmark of many Communist movements).

Might it be only that arguing about religion does harm, and that you take this as evidence that all religion does harm?

Look at the middle east. Outside of some peoples conspiracy theories about oil and world domination, what is the main reason for the conflict in that area? Its a religious war. Now, im not really excedingly familiar with Islam itself, Ive not read the Koran. What people say for the most part, is that it is a peaceful religion. But there are those that take the words of Muhammad, and twist them to fit their views. They call Christians, Jews, anyone that isnt a Muslim, infidels. And thus they do whatever they can to destroy us. Infact, Christians and Muslims have been fighting over the same peice of dirt (Jerusalem, and the whole of the mid-east really) since 1000 AD, and before. How many people have died in the name of Christ and Allah? Whats worse is the sectarian division in most religions. People who worship the same God cant even agree on most things. Muslims mostly, but there are many many divisions in Christianity as well.

What you said about, Buddism, Toaism, and such is true. The Oriental religions seem to get along just fine. Why is that you think? They are complimentary I suppose, yet they worship different Gods still, and some dont even worship gods, they simply follow ideals, i.e. Daoism and Confusianism. Hindus seem to get along rather well too, they are pretty much the only big polytheistic religion left around if im not mistaken. Its the long standing division between Christianity/Jews/Muslims that cause all the problems. If we look at it from a standpoint of senority, The Jews have everyone beat by a long shot, they started about 1000 BC I think. Chistianity started getting real big around 1-200 years after Christs death, and then Muhammad lived in what, the 600's? Not saying that that really has any bearing here, just thought Id mention it.

What im really trying to say is, no I dont base the fallacies of religion on a few people on a message board agruing. I base my judgement on 2000+ years of history and the millions and millions that have died in conflicts resulting from religious divisions. And I said this before, and Ill say it again, I am not hating on anyone. I belive there is a God-like entity in this universe I just dont think that that entity is here just for humankind. People cannot look beyond their own noses far enough to see how big this universe is. We cannot be alone in this universe, its a statistical impossibility. There are more GALAXIES in this universe than there are grains of sand on all the beaches of the Earth, some people need to wake up. Did Christ die for them too? Did Allah recieve his message from god for them too?

Im sad to say that the middle-east, infact Iraq itself, is where man first set up civilization. And by the looks of things these days, it seems to be the place where it will begin to unravel as well.

Man, that was quite a rant, and im sorry if i offended anyone, its not my intention. These are things I am passionate about, and this stuff can get to me sometimes.

It appears the sole purpose of this thread, as well as the purpose of most posts made here is to talk about those ignorant Christians. You know, those silly people who believe in GOD and try to force their beliefs down everyone's throat?

Well, here's something to keep in mind.

Just as Freethinker has the right to spew his hatred for America while at the same time enjoying freedoms the rest of us have worked for... like clean air and good roads and free schools and abundant choices of work, housing, transportation, healthcare, etc., etc., everyone here has the right to make fun of Christian beliefs. But keep one thing in mind.

If ever you find yourself alone, disabled, brokenhearted and lost... all you have to do is find a church, walk in, and you'll get help. They won't care that you made jokes about their beliefs. They won't even care if you think they're all crazy for believing in something they can't prove is true! They'll just reach out and help you... because that's what they do.

Yeah, yeah, I know you think you're bulletproof and you'll never find yourself in that situation. But if you do, no matter where you are in this whole wide world, there'll be Christians there to help you when nobody else will.

I hope all atheists find some comfort in that knowledge. Lord knows their lack of faith must offer few other comforting thoughts in their lives.

SMW

P.S. to DF... didn't intend to be 'mean' to you, dear -- maybe you'd be more comfortable posting on a teen forum, eh?

It is a sad fact that wherever there are Muslims there are sectarian problems. Islam is a religion that makes a virtue of intolerance, and for the most part I think the radicals will just have to be constantly suppressed until and if the religion changes (most Muslims are of mixed emotions about these things).

Christianity is not free of sectarian violence either--witness North Ireland. Still, Islam is where Christianity was 500 years ago. It may be that the teachings of Islam are as bad as they seem to be--in that case, I hold out little hope for humanity because sooner or later they will destroy all of us, including themselves.

I don't think it is accurate to describe Hinduism as "polytheistic." It is more complicated than that--there is really only one God in Hinduism--Brahma--and all else are manifestations of Brahma. Hindus and Muslims have a real hate fest going, but this stems from the brutality of the Islamic invasions. Hindus are otherwise fairly tolerant, so that Christians and Buddhists nowadays do fine (although there have been problems in the past).

Buddhism is agnostic about gods; Sikhism is dogmatically atheist--but neither are "materialist."

Your statement of belief sounded Taoist to me--a Being that is "there" but, being infinite and eternal, does not "do things" the way finite and mortal beings "do things."

(There is another "Taoism" that is mystical and full of fireworks and dancing dragons and is not at all the meditative, hermit-ish Taoism of Lao Tsu.)

The gentleman scholar in China becomes a bureaucrat and eventually a statesman, all the while practicing Confucianism, but when he retires he becomes a Taoist. This was not an uncommon career. Buddhism was always seen as a third alternative.

It appears the sole purpose of this thread, as well as the purpose of most posts made here is to talk about those ignorant Christians. You know, those silly people who believe in GOD and try to force their beliefs down everyone's throat?Spare us the persecution complex. Lots of positive things have been said about religion in this thread, not least from atheists like myself.

Just as Freethinker has the right to spew his hatred for America while at the same time enjoying freedoms the rest of us have worked for... like clean air and good roads and free schools and abundant choices of work, housing, transportation, healthcare, etc., etc.It's a shame you weren't born in North Korea. You'd love it. No one gets to criticise the nation there.

If ever you find yourself alone, disabled, brokenhearted and lost... all you have to do is find a church, walk in, and you'll get help.If you are representative of Christians (happily you are not) then all I'd expect is neurotic verbal abuse.

I hope all atheists find some comfort in that knowledge. Lord knows their lack of faith must offer few other comforting thoughts in their lives."Waaaa! Life is so miserable and horrible I have to some whimsical belief that a big magical being will make everything okay!"

Personally I am of an optimistic, jovial and relaxed disposition. Interesting that you have your faith in the Lord yet come across as despairing, negative and stressed out.

Is that why you have LOST LITTLE ATHEIST on your ID?

Yes, I've noticed you guys are quite the jovial bunch around here. Amazing how believing you're so much smarter than the rest of the world does that to one's disposition.

Is that why you have LOST LITTLE ATHEIST on your ID?Is what why?

Yes, I've noticed you guys are quite the jovial bunch around here. Amazing how believing you're so much smarter than the rest of the world does that to one's disposition.That's quite an inferiority complex you have there.

PS: If you bother to respond please attempt to say something nice; something Christian even. Go on, surprise us all.

, I hold out little hope for humanity because sooner or later they will destroy all of us, including themselves.

.

This is a truly horrifying thought.

I don't believe that atheists think they're smarter than everyone else. I can even understand why they don't believe in god. I just don't agree with them. I also believe that religion has done and still does more good than harm, but I like the way the world is now with not everyone having a religion.

You can't take the bible to one extreme or the other. I see it as being a book of inspirational stories that help to guide your life in a good, faith-based direction, not an instruction booklet on how to kill yourself by "drinking arsenic" or "how to become a professional snake handler" or some crap. But, you make of it what you make of it and that's final.

The most optimistic thing I can say here is that most of you angry young men will grow up someday and realize you don't know everything there is to know about life.

In the meantime, enjoy bashing those whose beliefs pose no threat to you. It's easier for cowards to oppose things they can't comprehend rather than face their own ignorance.

And BTW, little lost atheist, I wouldn't exactly call YOU the Bluebird of Happiness when it comes to discussing stuff. Wonder what could be causing YOUR sour disposition?

:bike:

and my point is proven, over, and over, and over, and over into infinity lol

You can't take the bible to one extreme or the other. I see it as being a book of inspirational stories that help to guide your life in a good, faith-based direction, not an instruction booklet on how to kill yourself by "drinking arsenic" or "how to become a professional snake handler" or some crap. But, you make of it what you make of it and that's final.

A good thought and that's my own personal experience when it comes to mainstream, middle of the road, modern day Christians.

how about we just say everyone is right, and move on

and my point is proven, over, and over, and over, and over into infinity lol

If we all agree to disagree, what fun would the DEBATE forums be?

I feel your pain though... none of us are exactly saying anything 'new' here are we?

Speaking of 'mystical characters' - what say we put this discussion on hold and all go play Superman, eh?

http://hk.promo.yahoo.com/movie/superman/Stop_Press_Game/

Originally posted by Rendova
A good thought and that's my own personal experience when it comes to mainstream, middle of the road, modern day Christians.
It's been my view since setting foot in the college realm. I still go to church on sundays when I'm back at home to sorta "refresh" my religion. But I like this side of it and that was a good way to put it, ren...where it's not all about cramming it down your throat until you're living, talking, walking and believing every single thing you are told to believe.

The most optimistic thing I can say here is that most of you angry young men will grow up someday and realize you don't know everything there is to know about life.

In the meantime, enjoy bashing those whose beliefs pose no threat to you. It's easier for cowards to oppose things they can't comprehend rather than face their own ignorance.

And BTW, little lost atheist, I wouldn't exactly call YOU the Bluebird of Happiness when it comes to discussing stuff. Wonder what could be causing YOUR sour disposition?

:bike:
Blob asked for a demonstration of Christian values, SMW provided it to him. This should serve as a lesson as to what Christianity has perverted itself into.

I don't believe that atheists think they're smarter than everyone else.I even pointed out to SMW recently that atheism is very common indeed amongst British males of my age. She seems to just assume I am an atheist to prove that I am better than my peers. Not at all - I could more accurately be accused of conforming with the culture I was born into.

It appears the sole purpose of this thread....is to talk about those ignorant Christians.

Tell ya what, toots.

If you can find the words *ignorant Christians**, ---or even the single word **ignorant**--- used once on this entire thread, (other than by your poor, put upon self (http://dozka.ru/info/forum/images/smilies3/crying.gif), I will never post on it again.

Take your time.

Just as Freethinker has the right to spew his hatred for America while at the same time enjoying freedoms the rest of us have worked for...

?!?!?

"the rest of us have worked for"......?!?!?!

LOL. That's right, you working class HERO. You and your ilk did it ALL by them fucking selves. None of the e-ville non-believers has ever contributed. [/sarcasm]

:rolleyes:

If ever you find yourself alone, disabled, brokenhearted and lost... all you have to do is find a church, walk in, and you'll get help.....there'll be Christians there to help you when nobody else will.

Really?

So you're saying here that it is possible that all other religious faiths in the United States would refuse to help, leaving only the Christians to "be there" to help.

Wow. Interesting claim.

Reveals a lot about you. (Uhh....you are aware, I hope, that religious faiths other than Christianity DO exist in the U.S. ..........?? )

________________________________

BTW.....have you had time to drink that poison yet?

The Bible says it's ok. If you "believe", that is.

:D

Blob asked for a demonstration of Christian values, SMW provided it to him.She sure did!

(Not seriously - I wouldn't go projecting SMW's unpleasant demeanor on to all Christians for a second.)

angry young menHey thanks! Not so often a woman calls me young these days.

Still got it! :D

bashing those whose beliefs pose no threat to you. It's easier for cowards to oppose things they can't comprehend rather than face their own ignorance.How do you explain posts like this (page 3 of this thread):
I have quite positive opinion of religion, its history and its benefits as other posters on this forum who know me would probably testify. In particular I am grateful to the Jesuits for starting the education system as we know it; to Christian monks for carrying the candle of human knowledge through the dark ages; to a particular baptist church in England for giving my own mother a new lease of life in her retirement years, and on it goes.I could dig up dozens of similar posts I have made during my time here should I have the time and inclination.

And BTW, little lost atheist, I wouldn't exactly call YOU the Bluebird of Happiness Of course you wouldn't - you are an uptight miserable little ball of negativity. But fortunately you are in a minority. Others here, including non-atheists, know me to be generally happy and considerate on overall balance.

too much negativity from SMW... quit bashing people and just follow what you preach. Love thy neighbor as thyself... attacking people for being athiests won't plant any seeds. That just proves their point.

too much negativity from SMW... quit bashing people and just follow what you preach. Love thy neighbor as thyself... attacking people for being athiests won't plant any seeds. That just proves their point.
Thanks Decka. You're a good example of the type of tolerant Christian that I believe is the kind who is truest to the teachings of Christ. :D

Christians are a faithful group of people. Faith is the glue of their religion, and others as well. The Bible presents a guide for them to live their lives. Most do not believe that the Bible is literal. They just simply have faith in the Lord. What gets me the most is those Christians, and those of other religions as well, that try and get you to convert. Sometimes it sounds like they are trying to sell you a car. They say things like, oh our religion is best because our god forgives all, or our religion comes with this, this, and this. Kinda stupid. What gets me most about Christianity is the fact that one can sin all his life, do the most dasterdly of deeds, but as long as he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour before he dies, hes going to Heaven.

Don't group Christians all together as each came about because people wanted to do things that Christ, Himself, did not condone. All Christain faiths are based on the Catholic Church and I for one do not believe your statement:

"... is the fact that one can sin all his life, do the most dasterdly of deeds, but as long as he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour before he dies, hes going to Heaven."

HE gave us free will. Anyone who does what you've stated above will not go directly to heaven. They will pay for their sins in purgatory ONLY IF they express true sorrow for their sins will they ever get to heaven.

But we must too believe that God is forgiving and that we are human therefore we sin. The KEY is that forgiveness can only be received IF we acknowledge those sins, repent, and ask for forgiveness. Everyone screws up in life and HOPEFULLY we learn from those mistakes so we don't repeat them. I believe God will forgive us BUT ONLY IF we acknowledge our sins, ask for forgiveness, and honestly try to avoid repeating them.

We live in an 'anything goes' culture and many justify their actions by their faith. Don't judge all Christians by a few... I truly believe some are in for a very rude awakening! God is all forgiving but HE is also JUST!

Thanks Decka. You're a good example of the type of tolerant Christian that I believe is the kind who is truest to the teachings of Christ. :D

Well thank you Dark

Ive had alot of aquaintences who got the "fire" of Jesus in high school (I grew up with my dad being a minister, so everyone labeled me a "God-boy", even if i didn't feel as close as i was labeled).. and they would get into argument after argument, and pretty much labeled anyone who doesn't follow God an idiot. That is the total wrong approach, that is, if you wish to mission. The problem was that THEY wanted to see the change.. THEIR EGO got in the way. They wanted to say "hey, I changed that person.. how great am i"...

Another problem was that being a christian wasn't "cool". Kids in high school think things that are BAD (to the christian tone) are actually good. Like smoking cigarettes, drinking obsessively, pre-marital sex, drug use, idol worship, swearing obscenely, ect.... Kids in high school always wanted to test the boundaries, and see how far life really went. The thing is, when alot of those "bad-asses" in high school actually got OUT of high school, i bet they remembered how nice SOME of the christian kids really were, and actually respected that. Everyone comes to God at different parts in their life... No christian should force themselves onto anyone.

A true christian says what he believes, invites you to be apart of it, but if you aren't ready, no problem. Whenever you ARE ready, we are here for you. THAT is how christians should act. Christians should be respectful, happy, friendly, and loving.

Now, from a PERSONAL standpoint.. i don't always follow all of those traits. Sometimes its for humorous purposes, sometimes i'm just negligent. Deep down i know what i have to do, but maybe i'm just too lazy right now to go about COMPLETELY giving my life to God.. which means going to seminary, living by his principles, and following through with it. But then again, I have that problem in many other areas than just my faith.

Hey FT, the bible says, we shouldnt test God and thats exactly what youre asking us to do. I have heard of some southern baptist who like snakes. Maybe you could find one of them and ask how thier faith has held up. See how many of them have been bitten.

I have a challenge of my own, thats always been in the back of my head and I sometimes wonder why scientist havent ever done it or why I have never seen documented proof of it.

I'd like to see a scientist expierence the feeling religious folk say they get.

I dont care how they get it, so long as they do.

This will prove one thing that to my knowledge has yet to be proven. That it is in fact an emotion that only a person can manifest.

Hey FT, the bible says, we shouldnt test God and thats exactly what youre asking us to do. I have heard of some southern baptist who like snakes. Maybe you could find one of them and ask how thier faith has held up. See how many of them have been bitten.

I have a challenge of my own, thats always been in the back of my head and I sometimes wonder why scientist havent ever done it or why I have never seen documented proof of it.

I'd like to see a scientist expierence the feeling religious folk say they get.

I dont care how they get it, so long as they do.

This will prove one thing that to my knowledge has yet to be proven. That it is in fact an emotion that only a person can manifest.

A lot of people feel those spiritual feelings while meditating, even if they do not believe in god.

A lot of people feel those spiritual feelings while meditating, even if they do not believe in god.


Yes, but is it scientifically documented? and are there different forms of the feeling?
Could they very in degree? What would be the highest degree they could reach and what is the process through which someone would have to go through to achieve them.

Yes, but is it scientifically documented? and are there different forms of the feeling?
Could they very in degree? What would be the highest degree they could reach and what is the process through which someone would have to go through to achieve them.
Are religious feelings "scientifically documented"? There is no way to know for sure what is going on inside someone else's head, nor how it compares as far as strength with something going on in another person's head. So there's really no point to this discussion.

Thanks Decka. You're a good example of the type of tolerant Christian that I believe is the kind who is truest to the teachings of Christ.

??

You are aware, are you not, of Decka's fascination with coprophragia???

"We all know your mother has MANY more original thoughts than you.. I mean, i've never seen a girl swallow so much poop!"______Decka

Somehow it doesn't seem a very sterling *example* from a supposed 'type of tolerant Christian', that he would accuse other people of eating feces.

Then again, BibleGod also seems to have had a penchant for talking about men eating their own shit and drinking their own piss ((II Kings 18:27))

___________________________

BTW; have any Christians here drank any poison or handled any rattlesnakes yet??

It's pretty hard to deny that it is in the Bible. I invite you to prove your "belief".

??

You are aware, are you not, of Decka's fascination with coprophragia???

"We all know your mother has MANY more original thoughts than you.. I mean, i've never seen a girl swallow so much poop!"______Decka

Somehow it doesn't seem a very sterling *example* from a supposed 'type of tolerant Christian', that he would accuse other people of eating feces.

Then again, BibleGod also seems to have had a penchant for talking about men eating their own shit and drinking their own piss ((II Kings 18:27))

___________________________

BTW; have any Christians here drank any poison or handled any rattlesnakes yet??

It's pretty hard to deny that it is in the Bible. I invite you to prove your "belief".

Christians ARE allowed to make jokes, you know.

Christians ARE allowed to make jokes, you know.

I see.

In your world, do "tolerant Christians" go on bulletin boards and tell other people --even as a 'joke'-- that their mothers eat shit?

Just curious.

I see.

In your world, do "tolerant Christians" go on bulletin boards and tell other people --even as a 'joke'-- that their mothers eat shit?

Just curious.
It was funny.... I didn't say he was perfect. Like Nappy never says anything worse than that. :rolleyes:

It was funny....

To an eight year old who giggles at scatological references, maybe.

Like Nappy never says anything worse than that. :rolleyes:

|||ahem...|||

Pardon me, but no one is lauding --or has ever to my knowledge lauded-- Napster as being a ""good example of a tolerant Christian"".

Being tolerant of other peoples' religious beliefs, or lack of religious beliefs, has nothing to do with thinking scatological references are funny.

Being tolerant of other peoples' religious beliefs, or lack of religious beliefs, has nothing to do with thinking scatological references are funny.
What if someone made a religion which had a commandment: "Thou shalt not make amusing references to poo"? What THEN, hmm?

What if someone made a religion which had a commandment: "Thou shalt not make amusing references to poo"? What THEN, hmm?
:lolhit:

What if someone made a religion which had a commandment: "Thou shalt not make amusing references to poo"? What THEN, hmm?

Then we'd have to stop leaving our offerings at the porcelain shrine.

I find it odd that DF didn't think my Jesus masquerade was funny, yet she laughed it up when Decka said my mom eats poop.

Not that I don't appreciate good toilet humor, mind you, that just wasn't it.

I find it odd that DF didn't think my Jesus masquerade was funny, yet she laughed it up when Decka said my mom eats poop.

Not that I don't appreciate good toilet humor, mind you, that just wasn't it.
The Jesus masquerade... I dunno. Maybe it was too sophisticated for me :D. I like poop jokes... so sue me.

Being tolerant of other peoples' religious beliefs, or lack of religious beliefs, has nothing to do with thinking scatological references are funny.

I agree.

All i'm saying here is that I disagree with your characterization of a person who has an argument with another person and ends it (even if it he was "joking") by saying --"Your mother eats shit"-- as being a person who is a ""good example of a tolerant Christian""

Well, to be fair, he was in the unenviable position of having my painful rhetoric focused on him. It's enough to cause any man to get a little unhinged.

Being christian doesn't mean you have to be a square FT...