Oregon State University and Portland State University both accepted me today!!!!

good for you!

(and i sincerely mean that.)

Yay, OD! :D

Thanks guys

Nice job OD. :)

Awesome news OD.

Congrats!!!

What's tuition, out of curiosity?

Go with the Beavers. Nothing against Portland, but you just cant beat a good Pac-10 school

4,734 for PSU if you have lived in Oregon for a year or more. Otherwise it is 15,966.
5,604 for OSU if you have lived in Oregon for a year or more. Otherwise it is 17,538.

Plus the cost of books which is a SHIT LOAD of money.
Plus the cost of dorms. Which are really, really expensive.

Thank god I've lived in Oregon my whole life ;)

$1,443 (average for books)
$7,344 (average for room and board)
$2,328 (average for personal stuff)

Books can easily be found on the net if you search thoroughly. And you'll get them for cheap prices. As far as dorm costs, that's your choice for wanting to live in a dorm...

And dont forget the cost of good quality Humboldt to make the days go by easier

As far as dorm costs, that's your choice for wanting to live in a dorm...
That or you get an apartment, which is even more expensive. I guess I could live at home but that does not really work well, seeing as how the college's are fairly far away from my house and I'd have to make so many trips back and forth.

Thank god I go to community college... In-county tuition is $1600 for the amount of credits I'm taking, in-state is $3500. My books were about $400.

And appartament is more than dorm...? You are kidding me right?

If you're looking for a huge and vrey nice of course it'll be a lot of money. But a small cozy apartment is not that expensive, like 500/month rent. Maybe the prices there are different. Oh well, I was just curious.

And appartament is more than dorm...? You are kidding me right?

If you're looking for a huge and vrey nice of course it'll be a lot of money. But a small cozy apartment is not that expensive, like 500/month rent. Maybe the prices there are different. Oh well, I was just curious.
Hah... Where I live you can't get a one-bedroom for less than like $800. Good thing I live with my parents. :)

Thank god I go to community college... In-county tuition is $1600 for the amount of credits I'm taking, in-state is $3500. My books were about $400.
I feel that, my books were nowhere near close to that. I use the physics book of a friend, the math book at the library, and I didn't get a Phil book. LoL, so I didn't spend any money. Past semesters I had to buy books and I got them online, for like 2$ / book. Amazing prices, if you look hard enough.

And appartament is more than dorm...? You are kidding me right?

If you're looking for a huge and vrey nice of course it'll be a lot of money. But a small cozy apartment is not that expensive, like 500/month rent. Maybe the prices there are different. Oh well, I was just curious.
In Chicago, a 1BR in a decent neighborhood is AT LEAST $800 a month, more often than not closer to $1000. And I'm going to be moving into one in May, probably. :(

I feel that, my books were nowhere near close to that. I use the physics book of a friend, the math book at the library, and I didn't get a Phil book. LoL, so I didn't spend any money. Past semesters I had to buy books and I got them online, for like 2$ / book. Amazing prices, if you look hard enough.
I bought my books from the school bookstore instead of online... Because I can sell them back at the end of the semester. Plus I waited until the first day to get them (because most of the teachers changed their books and didn't post the changes online), and I needed the books right away.

I was wondering about that, overdose. Obviously, you did work hard and get good grades. You're also popular, or at least you've got a good core of friends.

You've been worried about what to do once you're out of high school. It's my opinion that your best days are ahead of you. College life, out of the house and in a few short years, a very good possibility that you will get a great paying job. Don't let this slip through your fingers! Dammit.

Heck, my apartment now is just over $500, but where I'm living for my final semester in the fall, I'll be paying less than $400, while having satellite TV!

But anyway, congrats OD...just make sure to maintain a healthy balance of studying and partying and you'll do fine.

You're also popular, or at least you've got a good core of friends.
This comment makes me happy to know that you view me as "popular" and that you know I have a lot of good friends. However, maybe I forgot, but I don't think I let on to anyone that I have a lot of good friends? Maybe I did.

Anyway. I'm excited for college and thanks for the kind words.

silverbulletkc, thanks for the kind words as well!

I bought my books from the school bookstore instead of online... Because I can sell them back at the end of the semester. Plus I waited until the first day to get them (because most of the teachers changed their books and didn't post the changes online), and I needed the books right away.
If you buy them at the book store here, they buy them back at the end of the semester for half the price, which is why I don't bother buying them there. Not only that, but the prices are amazingly HIGH. I usually don't get books early, some teachers tend not to use the books that seem appropiate, so then there is the hustle of returning it. So I wait, see what book they want and if it's necesary for me to get it...then I go ahead and buy it.

If you buy them at the book store here, they buy them back at the end of the semester for half the price, which is why I don't bother buying them there. Not only that, but the prices are amazingly HIGH. I usually don't get books early, some teachers tend not to use the books that seem appropiate, so then there is the hustle of returning it. So I wait, see what book they want and if it's necesary for me to get it...then I go ahead and buy it.
Most of the ones I bought were used already so it's more than half. I had to buy one book new and I'll only get half for that one, but the rest I'll get almost all of what I paid. Plus when you buy them on Amazon.com you never know what kind of shape they're going to be in, and if you don't get overnight shipping god only knows when they'll come, and I was already behind not having my books on the first day. If I hadn't had them on the second day I would've been quite a bit behind the rest of the class.

Eh, I don't buy from Amazon. And if you need books fast, get them at library. Oh well, each to his own.

I feel that, my books were nowhere near close to that. I use the physics book of a friend, the math book at the library, and I didn't get a Phil book. LoL, so I didn't spend any money. Past semesters I had to buy books and I got them online, for like 2$ / book. Amazing prices, if you look hard enough.

I've heard of a college student who started his own used-college-textbook business via the internet. He was tired of being ripped off by paying outrageous prices for books.

What is your major, Overdose?

What is your major, Overdose?
I dunno yet. I like Journalism.

Good on you, Overdose.

Buy used books. There are two advantages to this. One, they are cheaper. Two, the previous owner has often hilighted important text and written notes in the margins.

Live in a dorm if at all possible. I did it both ways and dorm life is much better. First, you will have more fun and a more complete college experience. Second, there will always be people to study with, etc.

Again, congratulations.

Two, the previous owner has often hilighted important text and written notes in the margins.
Pfft. The advantage, if any, is marginal. People are too stupid to actually learn anything at college, nor determine what's actually important.

Pfft. The advantage, if any, is marginal. People are too stupid to actually learn anything at college, nor determine what's actually important.
You keep bad-mouthing college for specious reasons.

I love college. I've only been here for a little over three weeks and I've learned a lot.

This comment makes me happy to know that you view me as "popular" and that you know I have a lot of good friends. However, maybe I forgot, but I don't think I let on to anyone that I have a lot of good friends? Maybe I did.

Anyway. I'm excited for college and thanks for the kind words.

silverbulletkc, thanks for the kind words as well!

Gee Overdose,

When you go and post pics of yourself making out with various women, one does tend to draw the conclusion that you're not a social isolate, dammit.

You keep bad-mouthing college for specious reasons.
True, but this time I'm badmouthing the people that go to college, OD excluded.

True, but this time I'm badmouthing the people that go to college.
Thanks. :rolleyes:

You can get an exclusion too. Anybody else want one?

Me. Oh wait, I'm not there yet.

Good on you, Overdose.

Buy used books. There are two advantages to this. One, they are cheaper. Two, the previous owner has often hilighted important text and written notes in the margins.

Live in a dorm if at all possible. I did it both ways and dorm life is much better. First, you will have more fun and a more complete college experience. Second, there will always be people to study with, etc.

Again, congratulations.
I'd love to live in the dorms. I've visited friends who have dorms and they seem very fun. And thanks for the advice. I appreciate it.

-----------

Gee Overdose,

When you go and post pics of yourself making out with various women, one does tend to draw the conclusion that you're not a social isolate, dammit.
I suppose so. :D

-------------

As for Napster's opinion on college, well, I don't think you can say you don't learn a lot from college until you've actually completed college.

As for Napster's opinion on college, well, I don't think you can say you don't learn a lot from college until you've actually completed college.
Nor could you say you do, until you actually go.

Nor could you say you do, until you actually go.
ROFL. I haven't stated an opinion on if you learn something in college, unlike you. I'm waiting until I've gone through college to form my opinion, you, however, are casting your opinion based on zero personal experience.

So, I'd like to ask why? Because in college you are informed and taught by experts who are well-read, experienced and who were taught by previous experts in the field. Although this does not ensure that you will learn something, it seems fairly likely that you will. I'll have to wait and see. But seeing as how most who go to college say they learned a lot, I'd assume I'll learn a lot too.

But I won't make a hard stance on it until I've gone through college. I'd suggest you do the same.

Who needs college when you have wikipedia!

Who needs college when you have wikipedia!
;)

damn, Maryland is that expensive? That's pretty damn close to what you pay out in the bay

damn, Maryland is that expensive? That's pretty damn close to what you pay out in the bay
Property values are so inflated here... To buy AND to rent.

Because in college you are informed and taught by experts who are well-read, experienced and who were taught by previous experts in the field.
Such naivety!

Just remember: " ...those who can, do - those who can't, teach ... "

Who needs college when you have wikipedia!

Now, if only wikipedia handed out degrees!

Dammit.

Just remember: " ...those who can, do - those who can't, teach ... "
Uhhhh, why can't you "do" something outside of your work-day? Besides, what they "do" is one of the most important jobs, they prepare the future generations to become successful.

Plus, my history teacher worked in the peace core and in south america to help MANY people in her day. She has DONE a lot, as I assume many other teachers have.

OD, make sure you choose the right direction....
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j272/kk6pg/download-2-1.jpg

Working in the Peace Corps does not make one an expert in history. And I've been to college. I would gladly go back. But most people, they don't learn shit. They were idiots going in to college, and they remain idiots throughout it. You of course, will not see this, because the numbers of both will be skewed by who you go and meet. Since the idiots won't be of the high school variety i.e. they typically leave you alone, you'll ignore them. This is fine. Go to college anyway. Succeed, grow. Then come back and tell me how wrong I am. I will probably still be here.

Working in the Peace Corps does not make one an expert in history. And I've been to college. I would gladly go back. But most people, they don't learn shit. They were idiots going in to college, and they remain idiots throughout it. You of course, will not see this, because the numbers of both will be skewed by who you go and meet. Since the idiots won't be of the high school variety i.e. they typically leave you alone, you'll ignore them. This is fine. Go to college anyway. Succeed, grow. Then come back and tell me how wrong I am. I will probably still be here.
1. I never said working in the Pece Corps makes you an expert on history. I was just talking in general terms that she has done stuff with her life besides teaching.
2. Did you GRADUATE college?
3. I will gladly come back and tell you, you are right or wrong.

1. Fair enough.
2. No. Have you even gone? All a degree says is that you've completed *insert arbitrary number here* courses without fucking up hard enough to get kicked out. Please tell me again the value of a degree.
3. I'm sure you will. Just remember, perception is not reality, and I rarely take people at face value when it comes to such objective judgments.

Just remember, perception is not reality, and I rarely take people at face value when it comes to such objective judgments.
All human judgments are subjective.

Yes, now if only they would realize that.

1. Fair enough.
2. No. Have you even gone? All a degree says is that you've completed *insert arbitrary number here* courses without fucking up hard enough to get kicked out. Please tell me again the value of a degree.
3. I'm sure you will. Just remember, perception is not reality, and I rarely take people at face value when it comes to such objective judgments.
A degree says that you have studied a subject in-depth and have learned at least the basic amount of infomation (C level work) needed for that specific degree.

Honestly, I'm not saying that degrees make you "smarter"...but it gives you the chance and the infomation right at your finger tips, in which you can use in order to gain more infomation regarding the profession you want to go into.

And perception may not actually BE reality, but perception is reality when asking the average joe. And if you want to get a good job and be more-so respected in society, getting a college degree is needed and is also something that gives you a HIGHER chance at being successful in terms of money and security for your future.

The perception is that going to college makes you smarter and better informed (a perception that I personally think is most likely TRUE) but for the sake of the argument just becuase that may not be true does not mean it will take that perception away and it does not mean society will change its opinion on a college degree. Thus, if you don't follow this perception the chances at your success will be halted. Period.

It seems only logical to try and give yourself the best shot at a successful future and going to college will help greatly with that.

A degree says that you have studied a subject in-depth and have learned at least the basic amount of infomation (C level work) needed for that specific degree.

Honestly, I'm not saying that degrees make you "smarter"...but it gives you the chance and the infomation right at your finger tips, in which you can use in order to gain more infomation regarding the profession you want to go into.

And perception may not actually BE reality, but perception is reality when asking the average joe. And if you want to get a good job and be more-so respected in society, getting a college degree is needed and is also something that gives you a HIGHER chance at being successful in terms of money and security for your future.

The perception is that going to college makes you smarter and better informed (a perception that I personally think is most likely TRUE) but for the sake of the argument just becuase that may not be true does not mean it will take that perception away and it does not mean society will change its opinion on a college degree. Thus, if you don't follow this perception the chances at your success will be halted. Period.

It seems only logical to try and give yourself the best shot at a successful future and going to college will help greatly with that.

If my only reason for going to college was to secure a successful future, I wouldn't go. I'm going for the academics. I just like to learn.

It seems only logical to try and give yourself the best shot at a successful future and going to college will help greatly with that.
It "seems" like a good thing to do. You don't actually know. It's an inductive thought pattern.

I struggled with inductive vs. deductive thought for a long time, not really understanding the difference. Learning chess really solidified it for me. See, in chess, there are rules to good play in the opening. Knights before bishops, only move a piece once, capture with pawns towards the center. All sane, logical, inductive things to say about the opening in chess. Yet these rules are frequently broken, because in many positions, the deductive logic, that is, move-by-move analysis, doesn't bear it out. Deductive logic is superior to inductive logic in chess, hands down, no argument possible.

It is the same way in life. In general, inductive logic always seems to be the logical, sane way to proceed. Inductive logic is taking general rules and extrapolating details from them. Deductive logic is taking the details and extracting a rule from it. Deductive logic is knowing all the details.

Do you know all the details? The overwhelming, impossible to contend answer is that you don't. Yet people fuck up by going to college all the time, by choosing majors they later find out they hate, spending college having sex and doing drugs, not learning. The inductive logic isn't bearing out here any more, and there's no reason to immediately conclude that in this case, it will turn out in your favor.

You would do better to understand yourself better and get a feel for the details concerning your decision as to what you should do with your life, than to hop into a very expensive education where you may not learn much, may find that what you need to learn, you cannot learn in college, as I did, and spend a lot of time and effort in figuring this thing out, all while being distracted by the ever-present collegiate distractions so lasciviously proffered, including the actual course-work.

That is the smart thing to do. I'm telling you this not because of personal experience, even though my own experience did indeed bear it out, but out of what I am seeing from most kids your age. College isn't the be-all and end-all of personal development. Nor will it teach you things like discipline. It is there to, to paraphrase Dogbert, turn you from insufferable idiots into insufferable idiots who have paid me.

College does not exist for smart people. It exists for stupid people, and it does a good job of taking stupid people and putting smart paint on them. If you are really interested in personal development and finding your way, you would do far better to take up something creative. The economy is going that way anyway, and no amount of schooling will teach you creativity. Take up art, painting, music, animation, and create something. Find other like-minded fellows, and coach each other and collaborate together. That is hands-down the best way to learn. In the process you will learn so much more about yourself than you would ever find out working for someone else's idea of learnedness.

That is what the deductive logic bears out in this case. All of the people succeeding now I read about are those creative types that either dropped out of college, or never went into their chosen field.

So, Napster, you say to take up something creative. What if that isn't something in which we're interested? I've tried many, many creative pursuits in my free time, but my passion is for academics. I resent it when you say that "college is for stupid people". I'm not stupid, and I love college. Even in three weeks so far, I've learned a lot. But you are right that college does not teach discipline. You won't learn anything if you sit in the back of the classroom, chat with your friends or text message the whole time, and don't do your homework. In order to get anything out of college, you have to want to get something out of it besides "Oh, this will help me get a well-paying job." I think you might be trying to say this in a way, but you insult college so much that I can't really see it.

Just remember: " ...those who can, do - those who can't, teach ... "

And those who can neither do nor teach insult teachers.:hitout:

And those who can neither do nor teach insult teachers.:hitout:
Good one.

I insult college because people seem to think the world of college. I get importuned all the time, "Go to college! You'll get a degree and a great job!" I have to have something to fight that logic with, and when the time isn't right for a detailed explanation as to my exact feelings on college, the insults serve to at least let people know how I feel. It gets people to the point where they have to ask me why I feel that way.

What if that isn't something in which we're interested? I've tried many, many creative pursuits in my free time, but my passion is for academics.
You have the details you need to make a deductive decision. Most people in ODs position don't. They never tried it, don't know how well they can do it, and look for the things out of such avenues as college and the military, that are more effectively learned with creative pursuits.

I resent it when you say that "college is for stupid people". I'm not stupid, and I love college. Even in three weeks so far, I've learned a lot.
You might learn a lot there, and many smart people might find their niche there, as Blob has, but many more smart people do not. They hack their degree out, then don't do anything with it, finding something else to make money with. This is because the focus of a college is to make money. And there are far more stupid people and they have far more money than smart people, whose demographics do not follow simple class lines. So there is more money to be made by pandering to the dumb people.

Guess what? It's hard to provide smart people with a proper curriculum. This is because each person is different, and what works for one smart person, may not work for another. A standardized approach is impossible to bring out the best in intelligent people. But it is not so in dumb people, who will succeed or fail with only their own ability determining that. A standardized approach works for them.

There is also the increasing tendency of colleges to adopt a training-type methodology to their curriculum. No longer is learning for the pure sake of learning encouraged. Now people look at college as training for a job. And colleges are being forced, against their will in many cases, to respond to that, by economic concerns.

It's all about the money, sweetie, and the sad conclusion to make is that smart people get the shaft in society, whereas dumb people get coddled.

It seems Napsterbater is taking his personal experience, an experience in which he learned little or nothing in college and is from that extrapolating that college teaches little or nothing.

College teaches many things depending on the student and the courses taken. If you take hard science courses you learn not only facts but methodology. The same for history. You learn how to read for information and how to interpret what you read so as to find history, Wie es eigentlich gewesend war.

College teaches you how to access knowledge and how to apply it.

My wife and I along with our four children have completed more than forty years of college. We have a combined total of fourteen college degrees, eight of them post-graduate. I think we would know what college is and is not.

College is what you make it. It is a place to learn facts. It is a place to learn how to access facts. It is a place to learn how to get along with other people. It is a place to spread your wings. It is a place to find yourself and decide what you future life will be like.

Don't let anyone tell you college is not worthwhile.

It "seems" like a good thing to do. You don't actually know. It's an inductive thought pattern.

1. More people with college degrees report being more happy versus those who only have a high school diploma.
2. People with larger incomes report being more happy versus those with a low income. Obviously those who graduate college are far more likely to make a better income (there is no denying that).

Proof:
More people with college degrees report being very happy (42 percent) than people with only some college (33 percent) or a high school diploma or less (30 percent).
49 percent of respondents claiming a family income higher than $100,000 per year said they were very happy, compared with only 24 percent of those with family incomes less than $30,000.
Source for both: http://morningsentinel.mainetoday.com/view/columns/3575248.html

It seems if I want a better shot at being happy and successful I'd go to college to increase my odds.

I struggled with inductive vs. deductive thought for a long time, not really understanding the difference. Learning chess really solidified it for me. See, in chess, there are rules to good play in the opening. Knights before bishops, only move a piece once, capture with pawns towards the center. All sane, logical, inductive things to say about the opening in chess. Yet these rules are frequently broken, because in many positions, the deductive logic, that is, move-by-move analysis, doesn't bear it out. Deductive logic is superior to inductive logic in chess, hands down, no argument possible.
Thanks for that!

Do you know all the details? The overwhelming, impossible to contend answer is that you don't. Yet people fuck up by going to college all the time, by choosing majors they later find out they hate, spending college having sex and doing drugs, not learning. The inductive logic isn't bearing out here any more, and there's no reason to immediately conclude that in this case, it will turn out in your favor.
Graduating college is what gives you a better shot at life. If you honestly thought I meant just going to college meant you had a better shot at being successful, then you really need things spelled out for you.

The point is, switching your major is not that big of a deal. My dad did it three times. As for having sex and doing drugs, well, if you don't take advantage of college and use its resources of course you aren't going to learn anything. You have to use college the way it was designed to be used, otherwise you aren't really going to college, you are just partying...which is the fault of the person, not the college.

College isn't the be-all and end-all of personal development. Nor will it teach you things like discipline. It is there to, to paraphrase Dogbert, turn you from insufferable idiots into insufferable idiots who have paid me.
No one has suggested college is the "be-all and end-all" of personal development. That does not mean it can't greatly help you through that process.

College does not exist for smart people. It exists for stupid people, and it does a good job of taking stupid people and putting smart paint on them. If you are really interested in personal development and finding your way, you would do far better to take up something creative. The economy is going that way anyway, and no amount of schooling will teach you creativity. Take up art, painting, music, animation, and create something. Find other like-minded fellows, and coach each other and collaborate together. That is hands-down the best way to learn. In the process you will learn so much more about yourself than you would ever find out working for someone else's idea of learnedness.
College exists to give stupid people or smart people the chance to either become smart or become smarter. If you don't use college the right way and just slack off of course you won't make anything out of your life. But that is the fault of the person, not the college. As for taking up art, you can do all of that while going to college. That does not mean college should just be pushed aside, because perception is reality in the real world. And if you want a better shot at being happy and successful you will go and graduate college.

It seems Napsterbater is taking his personal experience, an experience in which he learned little or nothing in college and is from that extrapolating that college teaches little or nothing.
Actually, I'm using observation, and logic. But then, you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?

My wife and I along with our four children have completed more than forty years of college. We have a combined total of fourteen college degrees, eight of them post-graduate. I think we would know what college is and is not.
You know the reality of college as it was when you and your children went. That reality has changed. As the saying goes, "Change or die."

College is what you make it. It is a place to learn facts. It is a place to learn how to access facts. It is a place to learn how to get along with other people. It is a place to spread your wings. It is a place to find yourself and decide what you future life will be like.
Only the second statement is true. Everything else is the same bullshit people hand you to justify a failure to exercise deduction. People say that martial arts teach you discipline. That is the same sort of nonsense. These things might happen, they might not. But college will not teach them to you. They will teach you facts, and how to do a job you may or may not want to do.

Look beyond the bullshit.

Congratulations OD! You're smart and methodical, so you ought to have no trouble at all.

Both you and Nappy are right in ways; unfortunately, college has become mostly a party ground, or an educational factory, or simply a title, but you're right too in that if you go for the right purpose, it can be an enriching and gratifying experience.

Buena Suerte!

I don't care to go over this point-by-point OD. It isn't worth it. We think differently, and if you think you've done the deductions properly, well then by all means go to school and do what you need to do. I do not think it is possible that you have properly deduced them, from your attempts to argue with me on logical, rather than experiential grounds, as DF did. But if you think you have, by all means, pay me no mind.

I don't care to go over this point-by-point OD. It isn't worth it. We think differently, and if you think you've done the deductions properly, well then by all means go to school and do what you need to do. I do not think it is possible that you have properly deduced them, from your attempts to argue with me on logical, rather than experiential grounds, as DF did. But if you think you have, by all means, pay me no mind.
The whole notion that you can't explore and find yourself, while going to college or do so in college is laughable.

The fact is, even if you don't "learn" anything from college, you increase your odds at being successful in life and being a happier, healthier person. Why wouldn't I want to do everything in my power to increase those odds?

The whole notion that you can't explore and find yourself, while going to college or do so in college is laughable.
It will seem that way, until you are so overburdened with coarse-work and partying and everything thats *not* finding yourself, that you will look at that time later and wonder, "what was I doing?" while you are busy truly finding yourself, instead of just thinking you are.

But I can argue this on logical grounds too. How can you find yourself, which is an intensely personal, jarring experience, while you are busy being fed and sheltered and stuff, and forced to do dull, unengaging work for grades that won't mean shit later on in life?

Or, more direct:

How can you find yourself by pursuing someone else's goal, somebody else's idea of learnedness?

The fact is, even if you don't "learn" anything from college, you increase your odds at being successful in life and being a happier, healthier person. Why wouldn't I want to do everything in my power to increase those odds?
Now, what did I just say earlier about objective judgments?

It will seem that way, until you are so overburdened with coarse-work and partying and everything thats *not* finding yourself, that you will look at that time later and wonder, "what was I doing?" while you are busy truly finding yourself, instead of just thinking you are.
I've talked to several people who said college helped them find out who they were as a person. Your experience is one of many and it seems you couldn't handle all the work, mixed in with partying to find time to explore and grow as a person. That does not mean everyone is like that.

But I can argue this on logical grounds too. How can you find yourself, which is an intensely personal, jarring experience, while you are busy being fed and sheltered and stuff, and forced to do dull, unengaging work for grades that won't mean shit later on in life?
Let's just say that it is impossible to "find yourself" in college, due to homework and partying. Well, if you don't go to college, it is even more difficult to find time because you are most likely working jobs that are blue collar, not living a very high standard of life and don't have the free time as you would with a white collar job to "explore" and "find" yourself in say Europe or through Art. I'd rather put my "personal growth" on hold for 4 years, which would in-turn allow me the resources to grow even more as a person, then to just give up college and then make it even more difficult to get a good job and have a life in which I'd feel happy. In order to find yourself you must be content with your life and college seems to give you a better shot at being content, period.

Now, what did I just say earlier about objective judgments?
Why can't you just answer the question? College increases your chances at being successful, happy and healthy. Why wouldn't you want to go to college to increase those chances?

Sure, each person defines being happy as different. But the more people that can find that definition the better.

Your experience is one of many and it seems you couldn't handle all the work, mixed in with partying to find time to explore and grow as a person.
I did not party, nor did I focus tremendously on the course load. No, that is what I observe most college kids doing. You want to talk about what is most likely to happen? That is. My college experience was much like my high school experience, not paying attention, skipping classes to catch up on my sleep, and doing my real learning online. My experience is not really a factor in my logic.

Well, if you don't go to college, it is even more difficult to find time because you are most likely working jobs that are blue collar, not living a very high standard of life and don't have the free time as you would with a white collar job to "explore" and "find" yourself in say Europe or through Art.
Working a job is one of the best ways of finding out how society operates. But you are right, it doesn't help you find yourself. That you would say that art does not help you find yourself means, with no uncertainty or argument allowed with me on this point, that you do not understand art. Go do some, and you will find out things about yourself you never knew existed, or could exist.

Why can't you just answer the question?
What question? You are making an objective judgment, and backing it up with a study published online. The study does not prove anything, as if anything could prove an objective judgment. What the study proves is that more people reported more happiness on a study.

When you do get to college, enroll yourself in statistics, first.

It seems Napsterbater is taking his personal experience, an experience in which he learned little or nothing in college and is from that extrapolating that college teaches little or nothing.

Actually, I'm using observation, and logic. But then, you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?

Actually I know quite a bit about observation an logic. Both skills were integral to my degrees in biology, history and Special Education. In fact, I have taken formal courses in logic.


My wife and I along with our four children have completed more than forty years of college. We have a combined total of fourteen college degrees, eight of them post-graduate. I think we would know what college is and is not.

You know the reality of college as it was when you and your children went. That reality has changed. As the saying goes, "Change or die."

I was teaching college courses as little as eight years ago and until four years ago both my wife and I were still taking college courses. My children's college attendance spans more than twenty years, ending just four years ago. Actually it hasn't ended since each of them continues to take college couirses in order to upgrade their skills and knowledge.

College is what you make it. It is a place to learn facts. It is a place to learn how to access facts. It is a place to learn how to get along with other people. It is a place to spread your wings. It is a place to find yourself and decide what you future life will be like.

Only the second statement is true. Everything else is the same bullshit people hand you to justify a failure to exercise deduction. People say that martial arts teach you discipline. That is the same sort of nonsense. These things might happen, they might not. But college will not teach them to you. They will teach you facts, and how to do a job you may or may not want to do.

All the statements are true, or can be true. They may not have been true for you but let's face it, you're a college dropout and hardly the person to give advice on the college experience.

Look beyond the bullshit.

That's exactly what I have been advising Overdose to do, to look beyond your bullshit.
__________________

I did not party, nor did I focus tremendously on the course load. No, that is what I observe most college kids doing. You want to talk about what is most likely to happen? That is. My college experience was much like my high school experience, not paying attention, skipping classes to catch up on my sleep, and doing my real learning online. My experience is not really a factor in my logic.
Great! The fact is, that is the fault of the students, not the fault of the college. College in-in of itself will most likely help you (if you use college correctly) become a happy, healthy person...who has the resources and time needed to grow and find themselves once they have completed college.

Working a job is one of the best ways of finding out how society operates. But you are right, it doesn't help you find yourself. That you would say that art does not help you find yourself means, with no uncertainty or argument allowed with me on this point, that you do not understand art. Go do some, and you will find out things about yourself you never knew existed, or could exist.
I never suggested you can't find yourself through art. What I said is that if you want to be able to have the luxury of doing art and finding yourself through art, the odds are increased by going to college and getting a job that allows you the time and money to fully persure art.

What question? You are making an objective judgment, and backing it up with a study published online. The study does not prove anything, as if anything could prove an objective judgment. What the study proves is that more people reported more happiness on a study.

When you do get to college, enroll yourself in statistics, first.
:@@: Wow. You really don't get it, do you?

If you want to find yourself, you must first be secure and happy. If you want to increase your odds at finding what makes you feel secure and happy you will go to college and GRADUATE. Why is that so hard to understand?

Actually I know quite a bit about observation an logic. Both skills were integral to my degrees in biology, history and Special Education. In fact, I have taken formal courses in logic.
Meaningless if you cannot apply them in an informal situation such as this.

I was teaching college courses as little as eight years ago and until four years ago both my wife and I were still taking college courses. My children's college attendance spans more than twenty years, ending just four years ago. Actually it hasn't ended since each of them continues to take college couirses in order to upgrade their skills and knowledge.
Then ask them what the state of higher education is in this country. I have a feeling they would agree with me. And if they don't, a little discussion with me would quickly sort it out. You, however, have been out of the loop so long, that it is you who is bringing ignorance to the table, not me.

All the statements are true, or can be true. They may not have been true for you but let's face it, you're a college dropout and hardly the person to give advice on the college experience.
Meaningless assertions, mixed with ad hominem. That I dropped out hardly makes me incapable of using reason to describe the college experience.

That's exactly what I have been advising Overdose to do, to look beyond your bullshit.
Viewed in the light of who is actually bringing ignorance and fallacy to the table here, the irony is quite delicious.

Originally Posted by Napsterbater
I did not party, nor did I focus tremendously on the course load. No, that is what I observe most college kids doing. You want to talk about what is most likely to happen? That is. My college experience was much like my high school experience, not paying attention, skipping classes to catch up on my sleep, and doing my real learning online. My experience is not really a factor in my logic.

This statement explains a lot. You were a slacker in college just as you seem to be in life in general. You didn't pay attention in high school. You didn't pay attention in college. You skipped classes to catch up on your sleep. You admit all this and then you say your experience is not really a factor in your logic. No, it isn't. It is a factor in your illogic. You were a loser in college, too immature just as you were in high school and you use your immaturity as a guage of what college is like.

What you have described is college for losers. I trust that Overdose is not a loser and will get much more than you did from the college experience.

Ever play Poker, Napster?

Game of chance, right?
No big mental challenge.
You are dealt your cards, and then you bid, bluff, or wager depending on the strength of your hand.

You get a pair of twos when two other players are showing trips or better, then it's time to fold.

You get a trio of Jacks when other players seems to be struggling to put together a pair of deuces, then it's time to act nonchalant and subtly bet your ass off.

Graduating college?
It's a whole lot like making the minimum bid;
you aren't guaranteed to win the pot.
But you damn sure have a whole lot better chance than that chump who passed on the game in order that he might sit back in the wings and criticize the dealers shuffle, or the players foolhardiness.

At some point, the players will be driving the BMW's and Corvettes through the fast food drive-thru, and the kibitzer will be serving them french fries.

Or words to that effect.

The fact is, that is the fault of the students, not the fault of the college.
For the majority of students, you are correct. But, I might be mistaken here, you seem to be the sort whose intelligence requires a different approach to learning. For the highly intelligent, fear motivations aren't as strong as curiosity motivations. Fear tends to kill curiosity, and the fear of failing actually discourages an intelligent person from doing well. Sadly, fear is college's primary motivating tool, because curiosity doesn't motivate the mainstream as well, and college does little but pander to the majority.

College failed to motivate me, because fear does not motivate me, even a little bit. I was far more curious about the computer world, and that curiosity was what made me learn stuff.

I never suggested you can't find yourself through art.
You did, but I'll let that slide. Fact is, real world fear motivators are much different than artificial fear motivators. Interestingly enough, its the lack of caring in the real world that makes it so much more effective. You either do or die. Art done in the real world is much more tangible and relevant than anything done within the confines of an academic institution. And much more likely to be accepted and purchased by society as well.

If you want to find yourself, you must first be secure and happy.
Nothing about security and happiness lend themselves well to finding yourself. In fact, they are very poor conditions for that particular aspect of life to flower. It is simple. Security and happiness are meaningless, false even, if they come from without. Only once they come from within, are they worth anything.

Ever play Poker, Napster?
Interesting analogy, Sparky. But not going to college is not the same as not placing a minimum bid. It is placing a much larger bid. You are gambling a lot more, because there isn't the certainty of the small loss. As the saying goes, "Fortune favors the bold."

Being a slacker is the same if you are in college, working in a factory, or wearing a grey flannel suit. You are still a slacker.

This statement explains a lot. You were a slacker in college just as you seem to be in life in general. You didn't pay attention in high school. You didn't pay attention in college. You skipped classes to catch up on your sleep. You admit all this and then you say your experience is not really a factor in your logic. No, it isn't. It is a factor in your illogic. You were a loser in college, too immature just as you were in high school and you use your immaturity as a guage of what college is like.

What you have described is college for losers. I trust that Overdose is not a loser and will get much more than you did from the college experience.
Ad Hominem seems to be your strongest point, Frogger. Tell me, what can you actually tell me of all that logic you say you studied in college and know all about?

Oh, ok.

I predicated my analogy on the premise that somebody else was fronting your stake back when you were in college.

I myself worked my way thru college via night school and Bootstrap.
Didn't actually have a degree until I was 35 years old.
But man oh man.
What a journey from there to here.

And Grad School in your mid-fourties is a real gas, let me tell you.

But it's more interesting than the alternative.

That's an excellent point, Sparky. If someone else is paying for your college, than everything becomes moot, and there's no reason not to. It's like not being afraid to bring your queen out early, if the knight that would usually attack it has already been traded away. You get a powerful piece centered in the board, and no positional problems.

See, but you would never know that if you hadn't used deduction to get to that point.

That's an excellent point, Sparky. If someone else is paying for your college, than everything becomes moot, and there's no reason not to. It's like not being afraid to bring your queen out early, if the knight that would usually attack it has already been traded away. You get a powerful piece centered in the board, and no positional problems.

See, but you would never know that if you hadn't used deduction to get to that point.
My parents are paying for my college.

Oh and also fear can be a motivator for smart people too. I would never let myself get a bad grade, and I guess you could say I'm afraid to get a bad grade. It's my own perfectionism though, not any fear-mongering on the part of the college.

Whining about ad hominems after posting the following is a bit disingenuous, Napsterbator.

Actually, I'm using observation, and logic. But then, you wouldn't know anything about that, would you? (Napsterbator)

For the majority of students, you are correct. But, I might be mistaken here, you seem to be the sort whose intelligence requires a different approach to learning. For the highly intelligent, fear motivations aren't as strong as curiosity motivations. Fear tends to kill curiosity, and the fear of failing actually discourages an intelligent person from doing well. Sadly, fear is college's primary motivating tool, because curiosity doesn't motivate the mainstream as well, and college does little but pander to the majority.
Wanting what is best for my future is what I care about and if you use college correctly, you will have a much higher chance of having a successful future.

College failed to motivate me, because fear does not motivate me, even a little bit. I was far more curious about the computer world, and that curiosity was what made me learn stuff.
When you pick a major you pick what makes you curious to learn more about. Why didn't you major in something that revolves around computers or has something to do with computers or go to school to become a computer programer?

You did, but I'll let that slide. Fact is, real world fear motivators are much different than artificial fear motivators. Interestingly enough, its the lack of caring in the real world that makes it so much more effective. You either do or die. Art done in the real world is much more tangible and relevant than anything done within the confines of an academic institution. And much more likely to be accepted and purchased by society as well.
I never implied it. Cleverly, you are going to "let it slide" so you don't have to show where I implied it and because that is an easy way to end that point while trying to appear correct in the process. If you can find where I implied it I'll admit I was wrong, until then, bite me.

As for all your talk on art, I never disagreed with how important art is.

Nothing about security and happiness lend themselves well to finding yourself. In fact, they are very poor conditions for that particular aspect of life to flower. It is simple. Security and happiness are meaningless, false even, if they come from without. Only once they come from within, are they worth anything.
Why can't the sense of security and happiness come from within? And I still maintain that in order for you to have emotions come from "within", you must first feel happy and balanced with all aspects of your life. Clearly, people who go to college feel better about their life, which in-turns allows people to then look inward.

This statement explains a lot. You were a slacker in college just as you seem to be in life in general. You didn't pay attention in high school. You didn't pay attention in college. You skipped classes to catch up on your sleep. You admit all this and then you say your experience is not really a factor in your logic. No, it isn't. It is a factor in your illogic. You were a loser in college, too immature just as you were in high school and you use your immaturity as a guage of what college is like.

What you have described is college for losers. I trust that Overdose is not a loser and will get much more than you did from the college experience.
Ouch. :hitout:
Finally, something I agree with Frogger about. I guess there is a first for everything.

Whining about ad hominems after posting the following is a bit disingenuous, Napsterbator.

Actually, I'm using observation, and logic. But then, you wouldn't know anything about that, would you? (Napsterbator)
Ooh, going for the quick attack, are we? (Royal "we" intended) That is very typical of someone with a poor grasp of logic, going for the easy target. But that little bit wasn't an argument. It was an insult. No argumentative purpose was intended. Instead I saved it for my other posts.

Must I really detail the intricacies of Ad Hominem for you? Mr. Learned Man who went to college and knows all about logic!?

OD, if I have to continue this, it will very quickly get ugly. That is not my intention here. College is indeed what you are meant for. Congratulations, and have fun! :)

Ooh, going for the quick attack, are we? (Royal "we" intended) That is very typical of someone with a poor grasp of logic, going for the easy target. But that little bit wasn't an argument. It was an insult. No argumentative purpose was intended. Instead I saved it for my other posts.

Must I really detail the intricacies of Ad Hominem for you? Mr. Learned Man who went to college and knows all about logic!?

Not until you learn what an ad hominem attack is, Napsterbator.

You seem very upset with the fact that I went to college, sort of like a dog in the manger. It isn't my fault you dropped out. You're a slacker who never seems able to complete anything. You are one of those who is content to float along in life, never really striving, never really doing much of anything.

Well, if you are so keen on the fact that I do not know, why don't you explain it to ignorant old me? I am not angry, but in fact, amused that you consider the fact that you went to college to learn something evidence that you actually know what it is! Perhaps you can explain this logic thing to me, because know-it-all me, who, in truth knows everything he knows about logic from the Internet, probably has it all wrong. Why don't you actually say it, if you are so convinced of it! I am anxious to hear your explanation!

Or, if all that's too much work for you, Mr. Non-Slacker, feel free to call me a slacker again. I'm calling it a night, as I have work to do early tomorrow morning. Lazy work, for sure, but I'll be doing it all damn day. Gotta make a buck, if I'm going to support my own creative aims!

Yeah, go to bed so you can get up for work tomorrow.

I'm going to bed too so that I can get up and do much the same as I did today. Today I played eighteen holes of golf. Tomorrow I might play more golf or I might perhaps sit around the pool or at the beach working on my tan.

Being a retired college graduate sure is great.:banana:

You know Frogger, lots of guys your age are getting seriously bored with retirement. I read one story of a guy who decided to work his way up the corporate ladder again, even though he was retired already. Did his homework, picked a company, only to be told the only position they had available was in the mail room. By the time he passed on, he ran the show.

But of course, you have to have real talent to do stuff like that. It seems the only talent you have is the focused ignorance you seem to take to an art form. Well, that, and golf. Oh, I almost forgot! Tanning, too!