1. Is "happiness" a real thing or only an illusion? We experience emotions like joy and peace and love. Is happiness like these or something different?

2. If happiness is real, what exactly is it and what, if anything, can we do to have (or be) happy?

3. Is the desire to be happy sometimes itself a source of unhappiness? Is the desire to be happy a virtuous desire or is it selfish?

I have my opinions on these questions, and, if this thread generates responses, I will no doubt end up expressing some of my opinions (and probably changing a few). Still, I have tried to word the questions in as un-leading a way as possible.

1). Happiness is real in the sense that we feel it. All healthy people experience happiness, so it certianly isn't an illusion or disorder. Happiness is, to an extent, empiracly testable. Happiness is often predictable. Many animals appear to experience happiness.
2). Happiness is an emotion, a state of mind, and a chemical reaction. It is mental, physical, and spiritual. Everyone has their own method for being happy. Most people are more likely to be happy in safe, calm environments, while others find happiness in excitement.
3). Yes. The desire to be happy can bring unhappiness. The desire to be happy, in and of iteself, is niether virtuous or selfish. The various means by which one aquires happiness, as well as their reason for wanting to be happy, would determine whether it is virtueous or not.

1. Is "happiness" a real thing or only an illusion? We experience emotions like joy and peace and love. Is happiness like these or something different?

2. If happiness is real, what exactly is it and what, if anything, can we do to have (or be) happy?

3. Is the desire to be happy sometimes itself a source of unhappiness? Is the desire to be happy a virtuous desire or is it selfish?

I have my opinions on these questions, and, if this thread generates responses, I will no doubt end up expressing some of my opinions (and probably changing a few). Still, I have tried to word the questions in as un-leading a way as possible.

1. I guess it depends on what you mean by an "illusion." It's certainly something that is intangible that is perceived differently by ever individual who experiences. In some cases, I would say it's real, and in others, an illusion.

2. One thing I've always recognized about happiness is that it's a relative emotion. That is, it's only perceivable when there are varying degrees of happiness. With that said, I think some experience with sadness/depression is necessary to really experience happiness.

And the other obvious contributor of happiness is the fulfillment of your desires...that's what pushes you up the scale of happiness.

3. The desire of happiness is not the source of happiness, IMO. The desire of happiness is really just the desire to feel like your needs and wants are filled.

Furthermore, I wouldn't associate the desire to be happy with virtue at all. I would categorize it as a natural desire, like the desire to avoid death, eat, or have sex. Since everyone experiences it, it has nothing to do with virtue.

I paraphrased the next 3 paragraphs from one of Ted's Talks, I can't be bothered to look it up right now, google it if you care.

There are two different kinds of happiness, the "real" kind and the manufactured kind. Both are exactly the same kind of happiness, as we'll see, but one we take a little more seriously than the other.

"Real" happiness is all about accomplishing goals and living out fantasies one has in life. Whereas manufactured happiness is brought about by strife that causes you to not have those things you want in life. It is exactly the same stuff, yet most people would refuse to believe it. As an example, someone who wanted to be a fighter pilot in the Air Force and who tries out and fails at it, will be just as happy as the person who succeeds. Moreover, the person who failed will draw up manufactured reasons as to why he is just is happy as the guy who did succeed. He'll give reasons like, "Oh it just wasn't meant for me," "God wanted me here, and that's where I'm happiest."

Humans are surprisingly incapable of determining the motives they have behind the feelings they have or the actions they do, because the brain will simply overwrite information it doesn't want to hear. People will go into denial over the silliest of things, even if it means they have to go through additional hardships in order to save their manufactured viewpoint.

I, personally, am reasonably sure that happiness is only loosely tied with personal events, and that it isn't really possible to find lasting happiness. Just as easily as the brain will find reasons to avoid a crushing feeling of failure, thereby manufacturing its own happiness, it will also grow dissatisfied prematurely with things that maybe otherwise a person would sit and enjoy longer, thereby manufacturing it's own unhappiness, this happens most to the people with everything in life, after a while it just feels hollow, and there really isn't a whole lot a person can do about it. It's really hard to argue the brain out of feeling the way it wants to feel.

This is a huge reason why I disbelieve free will. A person's emotional states aren't really accessible to their own will. A person cannot choose to be happy. Maybe for a little while a person can discipline his mind to operate this way. But no amount of meditation, introspection, philosophy, and searching for worldly pleasures will keep the human mind from manufacturing it's own happiness or unhappiness.

Choosing to believe in free will, is, in my opinion, just a denial of the sort mentioned earlier so the mind can cheat itself in thinking that the stuff it does can bring about it's own happiness.

2. If happiness is real, what exactly is it and what, if anything, can we do to have (or be) happy?


I know a few people who are very happy with their lives, every day. The commonalities that they share are that they --

--have a substandard IQ

--know very little (and could care less) about the way that the world works, in the economic and political sense

--are not in any way prone to self-introspection or self-examination.

Ignorance is bliss.

You talk about our lack of free will, implying that whether we are happy or not is written in our genes and upbringing, or whatever it is that decides the amount of serotonin circulating at any given time.

I consider myself happy, almost excruciatingly so, and I know what the opposite is. I think people who are chronically unhappy need (or a better word would be "deserve") help, since I now think being happy is relatively simple, and is something we can manipulate willfully.

My how cynical you are <grin>.

Such people are happy by nature, so I would take the same evidence to conclude that happiness is the default, and it takes intellect to ruin it.

1. I guess it depends on what you mean by an "illusion." It's certainly something that is intangible that is perceived differently by ever individual who experiences. In some cases, I would say it's real, and in others, an illusion.

2. One thing I've always recognized about happiness is that it's a relative emotion. That is, it's only perceivable when there are varying degrees of happiness. With that said, I think some experience with sadness/depression is necessary to really experience happiness.

And the other obvious contributor of happiness is the fulfillment of your desires...that's what pushes you up the scale of happiness.

3. The desire of happiness is not the source of happiness, IMO. The desire of happiness is really just the desire to feel like your needs and wants are filled.

Furthermore, I wouldn't associate the desire to be happy with virtue at all. I would categorize it as a natural desire, like the desire to avoid death, eat, or have sex. Since everyone experiences it, it has nothing to do with virtue.
Happiness is not an illusion, I agree with you, but I am not sure we can compare it to other emotions (such as joy or love or anger or hate). Happiness and its opposite, depression (not sadness, which also is an emotion), seem to be something significantly different--although I am hopeful for help here on just what the difference may be--happiness seems to be something more like an overall emotional state--maybe comparable to the temperature--than a specific emotion.

In my expericence, external conditions influence our happiness, but are really minor in their power--things like getting our wishes cause temporary elation, but not happiness, and only until we start wishing for more.

I don't know is happiness is a natural desire--oh, obviously it is automatic in some way--but "natural" implies it has a survival function--it contributes to the survival of our offspring. Finding some mechanism for natural selection to build such an instinct in us would be a stretch.

I think people who are chronically unhappy need (or a better word would be "deserve") help, since I now think being happy is relatively simple, and is something we can manipulate willfully.
There are huge problems with making a person's unhappiness society's problem. It is far better to leave that sort of thing at an individual level, even if that means less happiness in the long run.

I think that acceptance of happiness, and unhappiness, as natural and normal cycles of being, would do infinitely more for human dignity, than would trying to manipulate that cycle. If it were to happen that an unhappy person and a happy person could talk and interact meaningfully, without either the unhappy person being ostracised, ("What crawled under your ass?") smothered with kindness, or just avoided, we will have done much for America's white collar problem.

The key to lifting a person's depression is to talk about anything other than the depression, or what is causing it. We cause most of our mental problems (the minor kind like light anxiety, worry, and contempt) by giving attention to those problems, like water to a plant. Stop watering it, and the problem goes away.

The greatest net happiness, eh? No, the furthest thing from my mind was for society (government?) to set about seeing to it everyone is happy. Even the thought gives me the willies.

No--when I said that unhappy people deserve help, all I meant was that chronically unhappy people should not be denied help for some ideological reason, or, well, I am not sure what I meant, but I know I didn't have a societal effort (i.e., Bhutan) in mind.

It is true that in most people periods of happiness alternate with periods of unhappiness, and that most of the time we are somewhere in the middle. My question to you is whether this is the necessary situation (I gave up long ago trying to judge normalcy).

If a person is seriously, clinically depressed, then medical intervention is needed, since this is a disease state and can be life-threatening.

More ordinary depression, or, better described, chronic unhappiness, is, I think, mainly a bad habit. It stems from habitual ways of thinking and interpreting events as much as anything external.

(There are other elements that in some people lead to chronic unhappiness, such as guilt and envy).

The solution to this seems obvious enough--train oneself to be positive and optimistic. Learn how to make jokes about misfortune. Etc.

Other forms of unhappiness--especially grief--cannot, perhaps, be avoided (unless one becomes a fully Enlightened Buddha completely detached from the events of the world--but that is myth). Still, learning detachment and learning not to cling can help.

"Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."


Abraham Lincoln

You talk about our lack of free will, implying that whether we are happy or not is written in our genes and upbringing, or whatever it is that decides the amount of serotonin circulating at any given time.

I consider myself happy, almost excruciatingly so, and I know what the opposite is. I think people who are chronically unhappy need (or a better word would be "deserve") help, since I now think being happy is relatively simple, and is something we can manipulate willfully.

For me, a huge component of a human being's *happiness* is satisfaction with and the prospect of a hopeful future for the society that that person finds themselves living in.

I think that American society --or any society that would elect the sort of extremely authoritarian, aquisitory, militaristic, unintelligent leaders this country has elected-- is heading down a very dark dead-end path. And even though I am deeply dissatisified with the society surrounding me, one man has almost zero effect on the shape and direction of society.

If American society were vastly different, my prospects for *happiness* would be vastly different.

My question to you is whether this is the necessary situation
I think it is. We cannot really judge how happy we are, because we do not have the mental facilities to compare whether we are happier in one instance or the other, for reasons mentioned earlier. It would require an inordinate amount of will to force a constant state of happiness onto the mind. A kind of will we seem to expect out of everyone, yet never can live up to.

This is why I disclaim personal responsibility over my own state of mind. To choose to be happy all the time requires constant attention. It's something I've experimented with. At one point in my life, I was capable of becoming joyful anytime I want with a simple exercise of will, and I did it often enough that I was more or less always happy. Such periods of bliss, however, were hollow, and I could not maintain it for long. It still works, though, and I can inject myself with joy anytime I want. It just becomes less and less appropriate to my mental state as I explore life.

Searching for outside happiness remains to be the ad reducio philisophical stance for me, even though it's ultimately a meaningless search, and you end up just as happy either way. It's just the way we're wired.

I think the chronic depression you refer to, essentially boils down to a difference in values between you and the people you are observing. (and it seems, silently judging) I would say that such things are more a reflection of a person's outside state than their inner state. True, some people are just unhappy, period. But I think these sorts are actually mentally imbalanced in some way. But to say that most everyone around you is miserable, well, it just seems like a highly relative observation.

I say I am happy because I can remember when I was not. I think it comes from habit, and habit comes from practice. Positive thinking sounds very much the cliché, but it works.

The message prior to yours expresses woe about the present administration. This flabbergasts me--not just because I don't see things at all the same way, but more because he seems to think the present situation is more or less permanent, when we know the Presidential term is limited to eight years.

The point is that external matters influence our happiness only if we let them do so. The easiest way to handle them is to reexamine our reactions to things and make sure our perception is not unnecessarily gloomy. If that fails, we can remember that nothing is forever. If that fails, we can have a cup of tea and crack a joke.

Unhappiness is our own fault, from habit and even from laziness (the greatest source of happiness is helping others, yet so many unhappy people don't even try to find ways to do this).

Happiness is a state of mind, and that state is reinforced by the presence of a variety of positive emotions or feelings. Joy, contentment, peace, security, and even love.

Depending on your psychological make up, you can be predisposed to happiness, just as others can be predisposed to misery.

Sparky: Thanks for going on this road trip with me, fellows. This sure was a good idea.

ES347fan: Indeed it was, sir. Hey, pull in right there, that looks like a good place to park.

Freethinker: This was a totally fucked-up idea, and I have serious regrets about wasting my day hanging out with you people. Please park this car so I can get out and stretch my sciatica.

Sparky: (parking the car and switching off the ignition) What are your feelings, Napster?

Napsterbater: Ha. It kills me when people try to 'psychoanalyze' me. Do not even attempt it, you will fail.

Everyone piles out of the car and takes in the view.

ES347fan: Wow. What a beautiful day at the beach. I don’t ever think I’ve ever seen the ocean such an awesome shade of aqua-blue.

Sparky: And this gulf-coast sand is so pristine and sugar-white. Just beautiful, it is.

Freethinker: Well, enjoy it while you can. Because in just a few years it’s all going to be under a hundred feet of toxic, polluted ocean water, from the melted polar ice caps. And all because your buddy Gee Dubya Bush and his cabal of twisted, greedy, oil-rich cronies made their money off this illegal war to capture the oil that powers their oversized, gasoline-guzzling SUV’s!!

Napsterbater: Whoah, check it out. Mother-daughter team sunbathing on the blanket at two-o’clock. I’ll see you chumps later. (scampers across the sand to go introduce himself to the ladies)

Sparky: Say, brother Freethinker. Why don’t you stop sulking, and come join us over here on the cabana chairs? We’ve got beers in the ice chest, and sandwich fixings if you’re hungry.

Freethinker: Well, for one thing I have to pee like a Russian race horse. And I don’t see any public restrooms around here.

ES347fan: Shoot, just strip down to your swim trunks, and then go out into the water and pee. That’s what I’d do.

Freethinker: I am NOT going to relieve myself in the same water where there are people swimming and frolicking around like mindless morons. Plus, there are prolly sharks out there. I saw a convenience store just a few hundred yards back that way, they’ve most likely got a proper bathroom. I’m going to walk down there and go.

Sparky: Here, take the car keys and drive.

Freethinker: (trudging off in the direction of the 7-11) What, and get myself a speeding ticket from one your Southern Gods-n-Guns ‘law enforcement’ officers? Not on your life, Barney Fife!! (mumbling to self ) Doggone it, got sand in my shoes now, probably going to get sunburned before this is all over, what a stupid idea this was…..

ES347fan: Well, it’s just you and me, Bub. What say we crack open a couple of Dos Equis, and enjoy the view?

Sparky: I’m way ahead of you, brother. (hands over a cold beer, and chinks bottle necks together in salute) Here’s looking at you, sir.

ES347fan: Cheers. *gulp* Wow, this is good beer.

Sparky: Sure is. Say, you wouldn’t happen to have any….. uh, botanical product along with you today, would you?

ES347fan: (smiling now) Well, I think I might just have a couple of Doobie Snacks here in my shirt pocket. (produces a couple of joints)

Sparky: Hee hee hee, outstanding!! Here, lets enjoy a smoke together, and save the other one for the ride home.

ES347fan: Good plan. (fires up the joint, takes a hit, and passes it over) Say, look at Napster over there. He looks pretty happy.

Sparky: Yessir. It would appear that he’s engaged the mother and daughter in a spirited debate, and they are practically putty in his hands. (enjoys a smoke)

ES347fan: Uh huh. Their honey is running like maple syrup. He’ll have them both in the sack within the hour, or my name isn’t John Thomas.

Sparky: Nice little motel right across the road, too. That’ll work out just right. Good for Napster!! I only wish we could see brother Freethinker any where near as happy.

ES347fan: What do you mean? Freethinker is perfectly content just the way he is. (takes the joint back and savors a deep draw)

Sparky: You’ve got to be kidding, sir. He complained all the way down here, he hates the beach site we selected, and when he walked off a little while ago he was grumbling like an angry curmudgeon.

ES347fan: You’re absolutely right. But that’s that man’s form of happiness. And if it turns out that the bathrooms in that 7-11 down there were dirty and out of toilet paper, and he gets overcharged for a pack of gum, he’ll be in absolute Heaven!! (Pardon the expression.)

Sparky: You mean that because he’ll have something to complain about, he’ll be in his own peculiar comfort zone?

ES347fan: Yep. Just as water seeks its own level (gestures toward a sand castle that some kids are trying to salvage from the advancing surf), we all tend to seek our own level of happiness.

Sparky: I never thought of it that way. (finishes the last of the joint) You are a very wise man.

ES347fan: Eh, every now and then I get it right. Say, you wanna go for a swim, and then maybe come back here and make some sammiches?

Sparky: Good plan. (strips down to swim trunks) Hey, I’ll race you to the water!!

ES347fan: Naw, lets just walk. We probably need to conserve our energy for fighting off the sharks!!

Sparky and ES347fan: Ha ha ha ha ha!!

:D ;) :banana: :smile2: :hula: :woohoo: :rolleyes:

:@@:

What the devil? ES didn't even make a post in this thread.

Dang, man.

I tried to figure a way to write you in there, but the thought of you sweating it out on a Destin, Florida beach in that Storm Trooper get-up just had me stymied.

How's about I work you into the motel scene?

What the devil? ES didn't even make a post in this thread.

ES is everywhere. No post is needed to make my presence known. Even you talk about me when you think I'm gone.

Dang, man.

I tried to figure a way to write you in there, but the thought of you sweating it out on a Destin, Florida beach in that Storm Trooper get-up just had me stymied.

How's about I work you into the motel scene?
Do I get to wear a leopard pattern thong?

1. Is "happiness" a real thing or only an illusion? We experience emotions like joy and peace and love. Is happiness like these or something different?. Yes happiness is a real thing not an illusion. I think happiness is a feeling of well being. One feels positively inclined about one's place in the world, family, tribe etc. regardless of what is happening in one's life or around the individual. It is not equatable with feelings of joy, peace and love for happiness transcends these feelings.


2. If happiness is real, what exactly is it and what, if anything, can we do to have (or be) happy? I do not believe "everyone" is capable of feeling happy. One's brain must have a certain chemical balance in order to "feel" happy. I personally do not try to be happy. I am happy by nature. My brain chemistry allows and fosters this.

This morning was a particularly BAD day. Everything went wrong from the get go. Yet, I am not chemically wired to hold that. I naturally seek the light. I do not direct myself, it just happens. I have a mouth like a sailor...so I had choice words for each thing that went wrong. If another had heard me they would have caught negative energy, yet within a half an hour, all was well with my world. I do not consciously direct my thoughts nor seek to be positive. It is merely my nature and so with many others was well.

So genetics are obviously a strong component to happiness. Or perhaps if one has a different view spiritually, one would view it as an old soul which would naturally float toward the light.

The other thing is "environment/teaching" while being raised. One needs to be guided toward seeking the best direction, to find the positive within the negative and to ride it where ever it will go. But it is not about manufacturing positive from negative as many motivational speakerss would have one believe. That is a fruitless pursuit.



3. Is the desire to be happy sometimes itself a source of unhappiness? Is the desire to be happy a virtuous desire or is it selfish? Perhaps the desire to be happy could become a source of unhappiness if the desire is not accompanied by the genetics or ability to head toward happiness. Clinical depression is not just a "state of mind" resulting from wrong thinking. It is a chemical imbalance within the brain. No amount of right thinking will correct that. The brain needs a chemical aid. Once the correct chemical aid has been found, help can then be given to aid with the correct focus.

As for whether or not the pursuit of happiness is virtuous or selfish is quite the question. I think it could be either depending upon the individual. I think true happiness or peace of mind would be a virtuous pursuit since true happiness in an individual should lead to self actualization. If a person is self actualized they should be a positive energy/influence within their environment and thus would impact the world.

On the other hand, if one believes the road to happiness is about entitlement of self at the expense of others then the impact or energy flow out is negative.

I think happiness is a sense of inner peace and security. Freedom from lonliness or want.

I think happiness is a sense of inner peace and security. Freedom from lonliness or want.

Is everyone capable of it?

Is everyone capable of it?

Certainly not. Our feelings are largely determined by our brain chemistry, but I think that we judge whether a person's chemistry is "normal" or not by their relative state of happiness versus depression. We use positive words to describe happiness and negative ones for depression. We as a society have made a value judgement about happiness. We call it "good" and the absence of it "bad" because that is the common feeling associated with a certain thing or event. When we perceive that another lacks the same emotional response to a given stimulus we try to help them out of compassion so they may experience the same good feelings we deem "normal".

I am responding to message 21 by "Just Ducky."

Reading what you say, I get the feeling you seem to think there is a happiness gene that we either inherit or we don't, based on the fact that some people seem to be happy no matter what and that others are unhappy regardless.

I think this is not just an oversimplification (and I am sure you will agree what I describe is an oversimplification of your message), but that it is a fundamentally erroneous way to approach the matter.

We inherit all kinds of characteristics, some of which produce a happier or less happy person, just as various characteristics (for example, greater or less ability to absorb calcium in our gut) ultimately result in a taller or shorter adult.

This may be, but it is not the hand of fate. We can do something about it. The abnormally short child can offset his genetic shortness by taking growth hormone, or maybe just calcium supplements.

Being unhappy is a habit derived mainly from habits of thought--which may ultimately derive from inherited personality traits--but we can unlearn these habits of thought, once we understand them and intellectually work through their fallacies.

It is not an easy thing--we cannot wake up one morning and say to ourselves, "From now on I will see things positively and thereby be happy." While that is essentially how one must learn to think, it has to become habitual. You have to learn to automatically see the glass as half full.

I was seriously disturbed by another message that appeared earlier in this thread where a person, obviously way too idealistic and from my perspective completely irrational about political matters, proclaimed that the present American administration made him profoundly pessimistic about the world, and therefore humanity, and so he saw no basis for happiness.

I thought he has swallowed the left's propaganda hook line and sinker, and look at the harm this propaganda, constructed by ambitious, cynical politicians, has done this person. (The right wing is as guilty of this sort of thing).

But the reality, as I think about it more, is that it is his fault--no doubt stemming from aspects of his personality that come from genes and from life experiences.

Since I dislike arguments, I made no effort to show him how distorted his world is--how governments come and go and policies evolve and no policy nor official is all good or all bad--especially in a democratic, prosperous country.

I doubt such an effort would have had any effect--because he is in the habit of seeing things a certain way--in this case a way that makes him unhappy, and he has the blindness to think of such a way as being "realistic." It all makes my heart weep.

Later on in the motel.

The woman disentangled herself from Evakian’s drowsy embrace, and crawled out of the bed. As she padded her way across the motel room carpet to the bathroom, she delicately maneuvered her way around the various components of Evak’s Storm Trooper armor.

He smiled in admiration. So unconsciously graceful in her nudity. Naked she was too, except for the pair of little white tennis socks she had on her feet. Nice butt on her, too. For a 51 year old woman, Carrie Fisher had held up quite well.

Evak threw back the covers and retrieved his leopard pattern briefs. He hopped on one foot and then the next as he slipped on the underwear, and then stumbled his way to the motel window. He cracked the blinds, and squinted at the unexpected brightness of the sunny day outside.

The sound of running water caught Evak’s attention, and he cocked his head slightly.
“Ah,” he thought to himself. “Carrie’s running the water in the sink, so I won’t hear the sound of her going to the bathroom.”
For nearly five years they’d been lovers, and still the woman was as private and discreet as a debutante. He grinned to himself.

Across the street, the public beach was beginning to fill up with the afternoon crowd of sunbathers and tourists. A trio of familiar characters caught Evakian’s eye, and he snorted with amusement. Sparky2, ES347fan, and Freethinker had taken over the cabana chairs across the way, and were throwing down beers, all the while taking in the sights of bikini-clad women parading by.
“So the allforums boys have escaped for the weekend,” he chuckled to himself. “Wonder where Napsterbater has gotten off to?”
He pondered the unlikely road trip companions, became lost in reflection over the strange nature of their friendship.

Just then, a pair of arms surrounded Evakian from behind, and held him in a warm embrace. Carrie spooned her naked breasts against Evak’s broad, tanned back, and she hugged him affectionately.

“Where were you just now?” she asked. “You seemed like you were a million miles away.”

“A million miles away, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Princes Leia.”

“Yeah, yeah. I’ll just bet you were. And in your mind, I was there, and wearing that golden metal bikini slave-girl get-up. Right?”

“Absolutely. Do you still own that outfit? I’d love to see you in it.”

“Uh huh. You and about a million other jerk-off fans of Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi. No, I don’t own that outfit anymore. I think it’s in a museum somewhere in California.”

The sounds coming from the room next door intruded on their reverie. Clearly, there was some spirited sexual shenanigans going on in the motel room immediately adjacent to their own.

“Hit her,” a male voice commanded from beyond the headboard next door. “She’s your daughter, surely you’ve spanked her before!”

A female voice responded, “Yes, but not for many years now. And even then we weren’t naked in a motel room with a young guy holding a video-camera on us!”

“You said that you would do exactly as I commanded,” he barked. “Now let’s have some action!”
The sounds of Napsterbater’s lusty three-way sex and amateur film-making continued on next door, as Evakian and Carried Fisher disengaged from their embrace and began to get dressed.

“You up for some lunch?” he asked.

Carrie finished fastening her bra, and buttoned up her jeans shorts.
“Sure,” she replied. “We’d better figure out where we can eat without drawing too much of a crowd, though. That Storm Trooper outfit tends to turn heads no matter where we go.”

Evak donned his armor vest and leggings, and then fastened his boots.
“I know you think it’s weird that I wear my Star Wars suit wherever I go.”
He sighed, “If you’d rather, we can order some pizza, and have it delivered here.”

“No, no. I really do want to go out with you. But you have to admit, it’s a little odd. I mean, when we first met on the set of Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones, it was perfectly normal that you were in the outfit all the time. You were an extra on the film, and I was there visiting my old friend George Lucas. It was kind of cool being photographed with you, having lunch at the film studio commissary…..”
She pulled on her t-shirt, and slipped into her Birkenstocks.
“But Evak. It’s been five years since we met on that movie set. Don’t you think it’s time to stop being a full-time Storm Trooper?”

Evakian paused in the donning of his gun belt, and held her with a thoughtful gaze.
“It’s part of me now, Carrie. This is my armor. Nobody or nothing can harm me when I wear this rig. And besides, it makes me happy.”

Carrie Fisher kissed Evakian full on the mouth, and then handed him his helmet.
“Well, if it makes you happy, then it makes me happy too. You are the best man I’ve ever met, and the most thoughtful lover I’ve even known. And even though we’re not exactly the same age, and we both have our own lives to live, and we only get to see each other once or twice a year like this…..”
She looked wistfully at Evak and tousled his hair.
“I’m happy too. YOU make me happy. Now, let’s go get some sea food. I’m starved.”

Evak donned his helmet and led his lady to the waiting airspeeder parked at the curb.
They climbed into the cockpit, and Evakian fired up the twin engines.
While waiting for the repulsorlift conduits to heat up to operating temperature, he cocked his helmet, and picked up some of the conversation from across the street.

Freethinker: I am NOT driving you guys to the store to pick up more beer!!

Sparky: Come on FT, be a pal. We’re just a little too tipsy to drive right now. And we’re damn near out of beverages.

ES347fan: Yeah, FT. Be a pal!!

Freethinker: All right, all right. If it’ll make you happy, and mainly make you SHUT UP, I’ll go get some more beer. But this is the last time, you hear me??

Evakian smiled at his happy companion Carrie Fisher, and popped the clutch on the noisy airspeeder. With a powerful lurch, the vehicle escaped the gravity of the parking lot and sailed off into the sky in the general direction of The Spinnaker. A flurry of gum wrappers and dixie cups swirled in the parking lot for a moment, and then settled gently to the ground.

:eek:

Dear Lord! That woman's what, eighty now?

I am responding to message 21 by "Just Ducky." Good afternoon Thislin. Nice to have you here at allforums. We are a diverse group and we can be edgy but we are also supportive and fun so I hope you will stick around for a while.
Reading what you say, I get the feeling you seem to think there is a happiness gene that we either inherit or we don't, based on the fact that some people seem to be happy no matter what and that others are unhappy regardless. No I don't believe that happiness is directly related to a specific gene. But it certainly does have genetic components in that it relates to brain chemistry as a base. Clinical depression does often run in families so there is definitely some relevance there.
I think this is not just an oversimplification (and I am sure you will agree what I describe is an oversimplification of your message), but that it is a fundamentally erroneous way to approach the matterNo, I do believe that is exactly how we must approach the matter but not limit it as such. From the time we are born, and probably from the time we are in the womb we are predisposed mentally and emotionally.

We inherit all kinds of characteristics, some of which produce a happier or less happy person, just as various characteristics (for example, greater or less ability to absorb calcium in our gut) ultimately result in a taller or shorter adult. I am uncertain by what you mean when you say we inherit all kinds of characteristics some of which produce a happier or less happy person. Could you explain that a bit further and then I will address this part.
This may be, but it is not the hand of fate. We can do something about it. The abnormally short child can offset his genetic shortness by taking growth hormone, or maybe just calcium supplements. Yes the abnormally short child can offset his genetic shortness but it is unlikely that he will ever be considered a "tall" individual. So while compensation is possible it may not be the same as if he had been born that way. I believe brain chemistry is the same.

Being unhappy is a habit derived mainly from habits of thought--which may ultimately derive from inherited personality traits--but we can unlearn these habits of thought, once we understand them and intellectually work through their fallacies. Now here you have definitely over simplified. Clinical depression is not the product of wrong thinking. It can be helped with meds and then supported by directing the thought process. But clinical depression will not just disappear.

But lets not make this extreme. Let's take a person who is born physically adept with great brain chemistry. He has an accident while skiing. He loses a limb. If his brain chemistry kicks in correctly he will be challenged mentally, emotionally and physically but basically he will do well. He may even view his accident and loss of limb as a positive thing in that he may decide he has learned wonderful life lessons which he might not have done save for the accident. That's one fork in the road.

Same person but his brain chemistry does not kick in. He now views the accident as disasterous. He mopes and does not push his physiotherapy. This limits his mobility further which in turn emotionally spirals him down further perhaps to a place where he can no longer control it. Thus the solution would be a temporary bout of meds where things get levelled enough for him to regain control of his thought patterns. Months later he is fine.

It is not an easy thing--we cannot wake up one morning and say to ourselves, "From now on I will see things positively and thereby be happy." While that is essentially how one must learn to think, it has to become habitual. You have to learn to automatically see the glass as half full. Here I agree with you. A child is taught to view the world in a certain way so there is an environmental factor as well as a physical or genetic component. "Thought gurus" make millions convincing people if they just look at things in a certain way, they can change their life. That is a waste of time and money since nothing is that simple. Not only must it become habitual it must be "real". There is no such thing as "positive thinking". Rather it is about finding the "real" positive in each situation and that is a skill which must be learned.

I was seriously disturbed by another message that appeared earlier in this thread where a person, obviously way too idealistic and from my perspective completely irrational about political matters, proclaimed that the present American administration made him profoundly pessimistic about the world, and therefore humanity, and so he saw no basis for happiness. Ah, not to worry. Freethinker is extremely bright and savvy. He has a political agenda while on these boards and presents from that point of view, ALWAYS. He also lives in an area that limits his ability to speak freely so my guess is, this place is rather cathartic for him. After you read him for sometime, you will see he is actually quite rational although a tad over the top. I actually frequently agree with his view or at least can see it. Oh, and he knows how to use shock value until you read him for a while.


But the reality, as I think about it more, is that it is his fault--no doubt stemming from aspects of his personality that come from genes and from life experiences.
Hey, I think you just made my point for me. :)

Since I dislike arguments, I made no effort to show him how distorted his world is--how governments come and go and policies evolve and no policy nor official is all good or all bad--especially in a democratic, prosperous country. Don't waste your time or tears, he won't give a crap. And actually, he already knows but your kindness is noted.

Dear Lord! That woman's what, eighty now?
50, but I'd still do her. She's Carrie Fisher.

I was seriously disturbed by another message that appeared earlier in this thread where a person, obviously way too idealistic and from my perspective completely irrational about political matters........I made no effort to show him how distorted his world is--how governments come and go and policies evolve and no policy nor official is all good or all bad.......

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/01/17/doomsday.clock.ap/index.html

'Doomsday Clock' moved forward

Story Highlight

• 'Doomsday Clock' moved from 11:53 to 11:55

• New change a result of worsening "nuclear and climate threats"


LONDON, England (AP) -- The world has nudged closer to a nuclear apocalypse and environmental disaster, a trans-Atlantic group of prominent scientists warned Wednesday, pushing the hand of its symbolic Doomsday Clock two minutes closer to midnight.

It was the fourth time since the end of the Cold War that the clock has ticked forward, this time from 11:53 to 11:55, amid fears over what the scientists are describing as "a second nuclear age" prompted largely by atomic standoffs with Iran and North Korea.

But the organization added that the "dangers posed by climate change are nearly as dire as those posed by nuclear weapons." (Watch as the hands of time are moved closer to global disaster )

The Chicago-based Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, founded in 1945 as a newsletter distributed among nuclear physicists concerned by the possibility of nuclear war, has since grown into an organization focused more generally on manmade threats to the survival of human civilization.

The bulletin's clock, which for 60 years has followed the rise and fall of nuclear tensions, would now also measure climate change, the bulletin's editor Mark Strauss told The Associated Press.

"There's a realization that we are changing our climate for the worse," he said, "That would have catastrophic effects. Although the threat is not as dire as that of nuclear weapons right now, in the long term we are looking at a serious threat."

The threat of nuclear war, however, remains by far the organization's most pressing concern. "It's important to emphasize 50 of today's nuclear weapons could kill 200 million people," he said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You, Thislin, may be blissfully unaware of how the U.S. government --under the control of rapacious Corporate interests who care nothing about humankind and everything about profits-- over the past 50+ years has contributed to the world reaching this incredibly dangerous state of affairs.

I am not.

You may view it as "irrational" to take recognize how close to the precipice we --as a country and as a species-- now find ourselves. (((• 'Doomsday Clock' moved from 11:53 to 11:55)))

I see it as completely rational and reasonable.

You may blithely dismiss the findings and opinions of the world's scientific community, such as the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.

I do not.

But you're still driving us to go get some more beer, right?

He'd better ... it's almost gone

That doomsday clock has been being moved forward and backward since I was in High School.

You need to learn to be objective and recognize propaganda. Didn't they teach you the various propaganda tricks when you were in school?

Also, you need to learn to develop detachment from the world. Sooner or later the human species will become extinct: even the universe will pass.

I feel happiness while making anything to another that I want.

Some people agreeing my opinion is happy.
Something that I want is constructed by me is happy.

It's a selfish in my emotion. But something developed by my ego doesn't hurt anypeople(maybe).

ex.
I developed a software by my ego( it's like "Everybody are going to find out my capacity!"), but it doesn't hurt anybody.

I guess the pure volunteer isn't in the world. Everything that made by anyperson in the world have the developers' ego. But it makes our life to happiness or comfort. it's OK. I think it's the volunteer.

I feel happiness while making anything to another that I want.

Some people agreeing my opinion is happy.
Something that I want is constructed by me is happy.

It's a selfish in my emotion. But something developed by my ego doesn't hurt anypeople(maybe).

ex.
I developed a software by my ego( it's like "Everybody are going to find out my capacity!"), but it doesn't hurt anybody.

I guess the pure volunteer isn't in the world. Everything that made by anyperson in the world have the developers' ego. But it makes our life to happiness or comfort. it's OK. I think it's the volunteer.
It is interesting: the desire to be happy seems, at least on the surface, to be a selfish desire--it is for us, not for others.

On the other hand, by my observation, the happiest people are those most involved in helping others.

Thislin,

Do not recoil from the seemingly arcane.
And do not so quickly judge the viewer-friendly two-act play as trite and hackneyed internet-spam.

There is genuine wisdom in the road-trip & Star Wars vingettes, young missy. Peel back the onion. Do not disgard a heart-felt gift of hope and optimism.
:matrix:

Dang.
This scene is getting crowded.

http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/pictures13/382-anerdsdream.jpg

What do you know, there are sharks out there!!

http://cdn.davesdaily.com/pictures/pictures13/379-shark.jpg