Thanx, but no thanx. Im as much against muslim extremeists as the next man. My fear here is that the white house seems to be playing the same bullshit card as they did with Iraq.

Well seeing you Republican guys believe anything that suits your own agenda,tell me this,were we going with is, because the rest of the world cant stand back and allow a handful of right wing religious extremeists drag the world into a full scale conflict. So like I said, weres the white house running with this.
correction: christian right wing extremeists. It seems muslim right wing extremests have a get out of jail free card

I'll admit that Iraq was a ploy, but not in the strictest sense. I've always contended that it was nothing more than a strategic foothold in the Middle East. We're there for a myriad of reasons, and none of them are as simplistic as the left (or the rest of the world, for that matter) makes them out to be. I think it's pure myopia in the extreme to believe that marooning Iraq will quell the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in that backwards shithole the West refers to as the Middle East. It can't be boiled down to simplistic platitudes like, "well, we wouldn't be in this mess if Bush minded his own business in the first place". Indifference brought us 9/11. Considering that alone, I'd rather face this issue head on. People like Ahmadinejad need to be killed, and if we don't do it, who will? It's a matter of time before that fucking coward sells a nuclear device to a group of radicals that detonate it in New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago, and I'll be goddamned if we're forced to sit here holding our dicks while the liberals play the "let's prove it" game.

Any invasion, bombing or nuking or Iran will be for one reason and one reason only ... the 100 billion bbl's of oil stored in Khuzestan that this administration can't wait to get their hands on. How many lives will this oil-crusade cost?

Follow the money.

Any invasion, bombing or nuking or Iran will be for one reason and one reason only ... the 100 billion bbl's of oil stored in Khuzestan....
Sure it is, Dop. I mean, after all, we've stolen sooo much oil from the Iraqis, right? :rolleyes:

Sure it is, Dop. I mean, after all, we've stolen sooo much oil from the Iraqis, right? :rolleyes:

We made damn sure the big oil companies got lucrative 20 year contracts ... what's the diff between that and stealing?

Could you list which companies got the contracts?

you cant prove therey were iranians becasue they dont wear uniforms. It is pretty eay to fight when you dont have to folow the rules. Thats why this war is bullshit. The west is expected to fight by he rules but our enemies are not.
Persians and Arabs look alike to us, but to Iraqis, they stand out like a Russian in the middle of Wisconsin.

You mean instead of Germans Mike.

Persians and Arabs look alike to us, but to Iraqis, they stand out like a Russian in the middle of Wisconsin.

I'd not expect a Russian to be completely out of character for that state. Now, a Russian might stand out in downtown Atlanta ... but then again, maybe not.

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/today/creators/cb/cb0219ag.gif (http://today.iwon.com/toonedview/id/1.html)

Could you list which companies got the contracts?

The usual suspects.

Could somebody remind me why the troops are in Iraq, please dont use the letters W.M.D. in your answer.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/root_images/022307_israel_3.jpg (http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,1470,00.html)

The usual suspects.
Well, the reason I asked is because they're aren't too many American oil companies. If anyone was interested in Middle Eastern oil production, it would probably be the French, British, and German oil concerns, not American.

That aside, who's stealing anything here?

I'll admit that Iraq was a ploy, but not in the strictest sense. I've always contended that it was nothing more than a strategic foothold in the Middle East. We're there for a myriad of reasons, and none of them are as simplistic as the left (or the rest of the world, for that matter) makes them out to be. I think it's pure myopia in the extreme to believe that marooning Iraq will quell the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in that backwards shithole the West refers to as the Middle East. It can't be boiled down to simplistic platitudes like, "well, we wouldn't be in this mess if Bush minded his own business in the first place". Indifference brought us 9/11. Considering that alone, I'd rather face this issue head on. People like Ahmadinejad need to be killed, and if we don't do it, who will? It's a matter of time before that fucking coward sells a nuclear device to a group of radicals that detonate it in New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago, and I'll be goddamned if we're forced to sit here holding our dicks while the liberals play the "let's prove it" game.Prae, Ive been looking at this post for awhile now, it seems that yourself and millions like you think that Iran is now the No.1 enemy of the US, this cconcerns me for a number of reasons.
1. A venture into Iran would once again deflect the US from weeding out alQaeda.
2. Attaking Iran would inflame an already fragile region even more.
3. Any action against Iran would just swell alQaedas ranks.
4.Another war would send the oil price thru te roof,destableising western economies even more.
5.Action could start a chain reaction sucking in even more states, and the situation would run out of controlvery fast.
6.Rather than making the US, the west and the region safer, it would have the oppisite effect.

Prae, Ive been looking at this post for awhile now, it seems that yourself and millions like you think that Iran is now the No.1 enemy of the US, this cconcerns me for a number of reasons.
1. A venture into Iran would once again deflect the US from weeding out alQaeda.
2. Attaking Iran would inflame an already fragile region even more.
3. Any action against Iran would just swell alQaedas ranks.
4.Another war would send the oil price thru te roof,destableising western economies even more.
5.Action could start a chain reaction sucking in even more states, and the situation would run out of controlvery fast.
6.Rather than making the US, the west and the region safer, it would have the oppisite effect.


1. Yes, if all our current support is drained to 0. Which it won't.
2. Yeah, that's war.
3. How?
4. Our oil comes from Saudi mostly, and they're completely against Iran. So, no, that wouldn't, unless Iran bombed the Persian Gulf to hell.
5. Rephrase that lease
6. That's the same argument you made in 2. And the answer is still: Yeah, it's war. Of course, after the war, it's all better.

In Answer to 3.
Everytime the US attacks a Muslim country,alQaeda says, there you are, they want to destroy us all,theyve proved they are our true enemy, thus alQaedas recruitment office opens 24/7.

In answer to number 4, very little of our oil actually comes from the Saudis. Mostly it comes from Venezuala, Canada, and Mexico. Nevertheless, the price will go up, because Iran does export oil to Europe and China. Oil is sold at the market price. If the oil from Iran is cut off, Europe and China will be buying oil from the same places we are, and the price will rise. The fact that Canada is friendly to us will not change the fact that they will sell the oil at the market price. So will the Saudis.

In Answer to 3.
Everytime the US attacks a Muslim country,alQaeda says, there you are, they want to destroy us all,theyve proved they are our true enemy, thus alQaedas recruitment office opens 24/7.

Chants of "Death to America" existed before that in Iran

Yea they did, but thats all it was after the Embassy thing chants.

In answer to number 4, very little of our oil actually comes from the Saudis. Mostly it comes from Venezuala, Canada, and Mexico. Nevertheless, the price will go up, because Iran does export oil to Europe and China. Oil is sold at the market price. If the oil from Iran is cut off, Europe and China will be buying oil from the same places we are, and the price will rise. The fact that Canada is friendly to us will not change the fact that they will sell the oil at the market price. So will the Saudis.I think Saudi Arabia is our second largest source of oil imports, behind Canada but ahead of Mexico and Venezuela. Nevertheless, your point stands. And even the threat of war jacks up the risk premium. Hell, everything jacks up the risk premium.

Yea, I remember when the Iraqi thing was at its height, petrol 'gas' prices went up on a daily basis, peaked at $2 a litre.

Yea they did, but thats all it was after the Embassy thing chants.

You cant say it like that, that's how Ahmadenijad is saying, like those chants are just something you'd shout at a pep rally. You dont see our cheerleaders going "1, 2, 3, 4, Kill Iran, Kill Iran, gooooooooooo america!" in our high schol football games

I think youll find I can say it anyway I want, and Ahmadenijad is probably right, he plays to the crowd, it just suit everyones agenda.

You dont see our cheerleaders going "1, 2, 3, 4, Kill Iran, Kill Iran, gooooooooooo america!" in our high schol football gamesThat's probably because Iran never engineered a coup in the United States or supported a dictator here.

I think youll find I can say it anyway I want, and Ahmadenijad is probably right, he plays to the crowd, it just suit everyones agenda.
Wishing death on someone is obviously immoral, that shouldnt be a region's customs.

Wishing death on someone is obviously immoral, that shouldnt be a region's customs.

What about bringing death there?

BTW, welcome to allforums. :)

You cant say it like that, that's how Ahmadenijad is saying, like those chants are just something you'd shout at a pep rally. You dont see our cheerleaders going "1, 2, 3, 4, Kill Iran, Kill Iran, gooooooooooo america!" in our high schol football games

Apparently you haven't been to the right high school football games.

Welcome to the forums.

Wishing death on someone is obviously immoral, that shouldnt be a region's customs.
Vile answered for me

What about bringing death there?

BTW, welcome to allforums. :)

Thanks for the welcome, but we're not exactly wishing death to Iran. You well know we want to kill TERRORISTS. You guys know what they stand for, right? They're basically not human anymore, just weapons of a cause, soldiers of terror, terrorists. They'll kill for their religious purposes. Let's not start arguing about religious customs

Let's not start arguing about religious customs

This a debate forum so why shouldn't we argue about religious customs???

This a debate forum so why shouldn't we argue about religious customs???
Alright, fine, then. Extremist Muslims are obviously insane, the whole idea of killing and getting rewarded greatly for it. That's all that had to be said right htere

It may be insane but the problem is, they believe it

It may be insane but the problem is, they believe it

I can agree on that, but in the sense of what they're doing, I'd classify their actions as evil.

Thanks for the welcome, but we're not exactly wishing death to Iran. You well know we want to kill TERRORISTS. You guys know what they stand for, right? They're basically not human anymore, just weapons of a cause, soldiers of terror, terrorists. They'll kill for their religious purposes. Let's not start arguing about religious customs

Yes, but there are always civilian and bystander casualties in any war. Look at the civilian deaths in Iraq for an example.

I can agree on that, but in the sense of what they're doing, I'd classify their actions as evil.
I would classify their actions as normal, considering the ammo the US has given their leaders.

You well know we want to kill TERRORISTS. You guys know what they stand for, right? They're basically not human anymore, just weapons of a cause, soldiers of terror, terrorists. They'll kill for their religious purposes.

You should know that Americans are marching under the banner of the world's leading exporter of TERRORISM worldwide, the US Government. You guys know what they stand for, right? They're basically not human anymore, just weapons of a cause, soldiers of terror, terrorists. They kill for the purposes of power, money and the control of dwinding oil resources.

____________________________

When trying to understand the events of September 11 we need to remember that U.S. politico-Corporate elites have resorted to every conceivable subterfuge, coercion, and act of terrorism imaginable in advancing their agenda of making the world safe for transnational Corporations to pursue their policies of attaining control of the markets, lands, natural resources, and cheap labor of those countries possessing anything the Corporatists covet.

Yes, but there are always civilian and bystander casualties in any war. Look at the civilian deaths in Iraq for an example.

Yeah, but it's 99% suicide bombers, not us.

I would classify their actions as normal, considering the ammo the US has given their leaders.

You're joking, right?

You should know that Americans are marching under the banner of the world's leading exporter of TERRORISM worldwide, the US Government. You guys know what they stand for, right? They're basically not human anymore, just weapons of a cause, soldiers of terror, terrorists. They kill for the purposes of power, money and the control of dwinding oil resources.

____________________________

When trying to understand the events of September 11 we need to remember that U.S. politico-Corporate elites have resorted to every conceivable subterfuge, coercion, and act of terrorism imaginable in advancing their agenda of making the world safe for transnational Corporations to pursue their policies of attaining control of the markets, lands, natural resources, and cheap labor of those countries possessing anything the Corporatists covet.

FreeThinker, I may be new here, but your posts aren't smart. At all. I respect those I've argued with so far, but... that last comment I'm not even gonna touch on. And I'm not touching on your avatar, either.

Yeah, but it's 99% suicide bombers, not us.
I'd love it if that were true, but the death toll of iraqui civilians as a direct result of our actions ranges from 56,000 to 63,000 (indirect death toll estimates as a result of our actions have reached 655,000). Suicide bombers have killed an incredibly small fraction of that amount.

why would i be joking, their told by their religious leaders everyday that america is ba and evil, why shouldnt they believe it

I'd love it if that were true, but the death toll of iraqui civilians as a direct result of our actions ranges from 56,000 to 63,000 (indirect death toll estimates as a result of our actions have reached 655,000). Suicide bombers have killed an incredibly small fraction of that amount.
source?
why would i be joking, their told by their religious leaders everyday that america is ba and evil, why shouldnt they believe it
nevermind, I misinterpreted you

Yeah, but it's 99% suicide bombers, not us Ummm, wrong. Most of the innocent Iraqis have been killed by US bombing or its effects (dirty water, no food, no hospital/medicine)

how many days the US been in Iraq, multiply that by 100, you should be pretty close to the figure

Here are a few. The estimates for violent deaths is fairly similar in all the estimates.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0625-03.htm

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2006/11/11/2003335773

http://steppforcongress.blogspot.com/2007/01/34000-iraqi-death-toll-in-06.html

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/61/20726

how many days the US been in Iraq, multiply that by 100, you should be pretty close to the figure

That would be about 130,000

FreeThinker, I may be new here, but your posts aren't smart. At all. I respect those I've argued with so far, but... that last comment I'm not even gonna touch on. And I'm not touching on your avatar, either.
FreeThinker is one of the most intelligent posters here. He's quite bitter and often rude, and I agree with about 5% of what he says, but he is incredibly intelligent.

Generals threaten to quit ..,.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1434540.ece

Five Generals and Admirals?...names please, without them this is just another piece of CRAP, following in the tradition of "The great Appeaser" Neville Chamberlain

Al Daly, Ft. Lauderddale, FL. USA

i was going to say the exact same thing.

I would classify their actions as normal, considering the ammo the US has given their leaders.
Nice, Paul.

....that last comment I'm not even gonna touch on.

Of course not.

The truth, to peope like you, is what Kryptonite is to Superman.

_________________________

"In the long and harrowing national nightmare we presently find ourselves trapped in, a filthy brand of governance has emerged, entrenching itself deep into our society with its claws of violence and destruction. It is a government devoid of honor or integrity; living, breathing and spewing lies and deceits, exploiting fear and insecurity to achieve its goals and manipulating an entire nation suffering through its post 9/11 insecurity and slumber into blindly following its evil dictates."___________Manuel Valenzuela

Of course not.

The truth, to peope like you, is what Kryptonite is to Superman.


you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.

why would i be joking, their told by their religious leaders everyday that america is ba and evil, why shouldnt they believe it
Perhaps because it isn't true.

Well,If you thinkabout it,its not a question of whether its true or not, these people have limited access to outside media, they believe what their told.

Well,If you thinkabout it,its not a question of whether its true or not, these people have limited access to outside media, they believe what their told.
Paul's right here. They are very limited, but that still should not give them the right to reenact nazism in their land. Don't they have history books? Oh, of course not. Let's not forget that Ahmadenijad says you can't do research on the holocaust legally, it could mean death. ...Yeah, right.

Of course not.

The truth, to peope like you, is what Kryptonite is to Superman.

No. Way off.

In Saudi Arabia it is illegal, and punishable by Death, to posess a Bible.

...but they are our "friends".

The U.S. may have been attacked in Iraq by Iranian forces. If proof of this can be found, retaliation is a real possibility.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.main/index.html

Things in the entire region seem to be spiraling out of control. A much wider war in the entire region seems possible, or even likely. Even as this is happening, the pentagon has finally stopped selling surplus F-14 spare parts, after a reporter learned that some of them had been sold to agents for Iran. Iran still has F-14 fighters that we sold them in the 1970's when they were our ally in the region. They have had trouble obtaining spare parts, until we retired the F-14, and have been selling off our extra parts.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/30/pentagon.f14.ap/index.html

There will always be war in so long as there is profit in war.

Welcome tho the United states of Halaburton.

Geo,W Bysh presiding.

Nice moniker, Dingaling. At least you're honest...

Nice moniker, Dingaling. At least you're honest...

O.K. Keep a cool tool in the pool and don't let youe meat loaf.

In Saudi Arabia it is illegal, and punishable by Death, to posess a Bible.

...but they are our "friends".
The US support for this very very wealthy family whom rule Saudi is another rason why Muslims are opposed to the United States.

This is simply mind-boggling....

Apparently, Iran is the only nation on earth still flying the F-14 Tomcat. We sold Iran their fighter jets in the 1970s (we retired our own Tomcats last fall). Because they do not produce their own military aircraft, Iran is heavily dependent on foreign markets for spare parts. U.S. law enforcement officials believe Iran can make only about 15 percent of the components it needs for the jets, so.....

In order to help Iran keep its fighter jets viable and dangerous, our military/administration geniuses have been selling our old F-14 parts to them for months (until last Friday, that is, when an Associated Press story brought the matter to public scrutiny). Full story here (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1583715,00.html).

It would appear that our military/political leaders finally figured out that selling necessary aircraft parts to Iran might just create a problem for us somewhere down the line.

Or maybe they've been enabling Iran to come after us, so we can go after them...

Both scenarios are frightening. Either our military/political leaders are too stupid to recognize the inherent danger in selling necessary war-making materials to nations that are beligerant and aggressive toward us, or they were hoping to give Iran enough military might to pick a fight with us.

Given the collosal lies we've been handed by the Bush administration for the last five years about Iraq, Saddam, WMD, al Queda, terrorist activities, etc., I'm more inclined to believe the latter. I mean, if you're hoping to provoke a war next door (Iran) so that Congress will continue funding the war you really want to fight (Iraq), I can't think of a better way to go about it.


:rolleyes:F-14s from the 70s are no threat to our airforce. We still fly the F-14 but with updated RADAR, Electronic Countermeasures, guided missiles, and other electronics. If they were to try to attack us with them they would be shot down before they even saw us.

F-14s from the 70s are no threat to our airforce. We still fly the F-14 but with updated RADAR, Electronic Countermeasures, guided missiles, and other electronics. If they were to try to attack us with them they would be shot down before they even saw us.
nope-the F-14 has been retired...and there was some hoopla recently about spare parts being auctioned off....which only Iran would benefit from since they are the only possible end user.:matrix:

We still fly the F-14

Actually, the last units shut down very recently.