Christian Fundamentalism: Religion of Despair and Desperation


The engine that drives the radical Christian right in the United States - the most dangerous mass movement in American history - is not religiosity, but despair.



It is a movement built on the growing personal and economic despair of tens of millions of Americans. The danger of this theology of despair is that it says that nothing in the world is worth saving. It rejoices in cataclysmic destruction. It welcomes the frightening advance of global warming, the spiralling wars and violence in the Middle East and the poverty and neglect that have blighted American urban and rural landscapes as encouraging signs that the end of the world is close.

It is a movement built on the growing despair of Americans who have watched helplessly as their communities were plunged into poverty by the flight of manu facturing jobs, their families and neighbourhoods torn apart by neglect and indifference. They eventually lost hope that America was a place where they had a future.

This despair crosses economic boundaries, enveloping many in the middle class who live trapped in huge, soulless exurbs where, lacking any form of community rituals or centres, they also feel deeply isolated, vulnerable and lonely.

Those in despair are the most easily manipulated by demagogues, who promise a fantastic utopia, whether it is a worker's paradise, liberté-égalité-fraternité, or the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Those in despair search desperately for a solution, the warm embrace of a community to replace the one they lost, a sense of purpose and meaning in life, the assurance that they are protected, loved and worthwhile.

During the past two years of work on the book "American Fascists: the Christian right and the war on America", I kept encountering this deadly despair.

Driving down a highway lined with gas stations, fast-food restaurants and dollar stores, I often got vertigo, forgetting for a moment if I was in Detroit or Kansas City or Cleveland.

There are parts of the United States, including whole sections of former manufacturing centres such as Ohio, that resemble the developing world, with boarded-up storefronts, dilapidated houses, potholed streets and crumbling schools.

The end of the world is no longer an abstraction to many Americans.

In the United States we have turned our backs on the working class, with much of the worst assaults, such as Nafta and welfare reform, pushed though during President Clinton's Democratic administration.

We stand passively and watch an equally pernicious assault on the middle class. Anything that can be put on software, from architecture to engineering to finance, will soon be handed to workers overseas who will be paid a third of what their American counterparts receive and who will, like some 45 million Americans, have no access to health insurance or benefits.

There has been, along with the creation of an American oligarchy, a steady Weimarisation of the working class.

The top 1 per cent of households in the US have more wealth than the bottom 90 per cent combined. As Plutarch reminded us: "An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics."

Christians who long for the Apocalypse

The danger of this theology of despair is that it says that nothing in the world is worth saving. It rejoices in cataclysmic destruction.

It welcomes the frightening advance of global warming, the spiralling wars and violence in the Middle East and the poverty and neglect that have blighted American urban and rural landscapes as encouraging signs that the end of the world is close.

Those who cling to this magical belief, which is a bizarre form of spiritual Darwinism, will be raptured upwards while the rest of us will be tormented with horrors by a warrior Christ and finally extinguished.

The obsession with apocalyptic violence is an obsession with revenge. It is what the world, and we who still believe it is worth saving, deserve.

Those who lead the movement give their followers moral licence to direct this rage and yearning for violence against all who refuse to submit to the movement, from liberals and "secular humanists", to "nominal Christians", intellectuals, gays and lesbians, to Muslims.

The leaders of the Christian right, from James Dobson to Pat Robertson, call for a theocratic state that will, if it comes to pass, bear within it many of the traits of classical fascism.

All radical movements need a crisis or a prolonged period of instability to achieve power. We are not in a period of crisis now.

But another catastrophic terrorist attack on American soil, a series of huge environmental disasters or an economic meltdown will hand to these radicals the opening they seek.

Manipulating our fear and anxiety, promising to make us safe and secure, giving us the assurance that they can vanquish the forces that mean to do us harm, these radicals, many of whom have achieved powerful positions in the executive and legislative branches of government, as well as the military, will ask us only to surrender our rights, to pass them the unlimited power they need to battle the forces of darkness.

They will have behind them tens of millions of angry, disenfranchised Americans longing for revenge and yearning for a mythical utopia, Americans who embraced a theology of despair because we offered them nothing else. --------- Chris Hedges @ New Statesman

http://www.newstatesman.com/200701290030

I don't know people like that. You bet we want YESHUA to come soon but not for most of what you post.

I don't know people like that.

But there are millions --comprising the the radical Christian Right in the United States-- who are like that.

I know the type myself.....as the author notes, they welcome the advance of global warming and the ceaseless wars and violence in the Middle East, because it fits in with their insane vison of a coming Apocalypse, wherein they will be raptured up to Heaven while the rest of us will be "tormented with horrors by a warrior Christ and finally extinguished".

But there are millions --comprising the the radical Christian Right in the United States-- who are like that.

I know the type myself.....as the author notes, they welcome the advance of global warming and the ceaseless wars and violence in the Middle East, because it fits in with their insane vison of a coming Apocalypse, wherein they will be raptured up to Heaven while the rest of us will be "tormented with horrors by a warrior Christ and finally extinguished".
you don't happen to drive a Toyota, do you?

There have always been apocalyptic thinkers and no doubt always will be. Nor is it a tendency limited to Christianity (although the apocalypticism of the New Testament lends a particular credibility to such ideas among Christians).

I think it stems, at least in part, from a certain form of egoism. If "I" am important, and the apocalypticist assumes he or she is important, then surely the particular times "I" live in must be important too.

I think, however, that too much is made of such people; they were far more prominent in the nineteenth century (which saw the birth of movements like Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists--both seriously apocalyptic) than now. In particular, I notice a tendency in the political left in America to point to them as a scare tactic. This leads to people making them seem more important in society than they really are, for political purposes.

Very good post, Thislin.

Very good post, Thislin.
Agreed. Thislin seems like a very intelligent new poster to me. :)

One nation made in a day
gathering of the Jews from all the nations
increase of knowledge
wars, rumor of wars famine diease
Jews will make the desert bloom again which they have done. ( they are the only ones to make Israel bloom)
The only dead language to be revived is Hebrew.
All of the items to be put into the new temple when it is built have been made and are waiting
Sanhedrin court has been brought back to life after 1600 yrs

This has already happen and in MATT 24 it tell it will happen in one generation.

Millions?

I think FT thinks that anyone who isn't a bleeding heart liberal is some extreme, radical, fundamentalist conservative....

Not everyone tries to stuff the bible down your throat.. just the 700 club and Pat Robertson.

I think FT thinks that anyone who isn't a bleeding heart liberal is some extreme, radical, fundamentalist conservative....


Nope. Sorry.

I don't think that.

But there are tens of millions of far-right, fundamentalist-leaning conservatives in America.

i think it is safe to say that MOST sane people see Pat Robertson for what he is... a bit "out there"...

No doubt some bite into his shit.. just like you bite into your radical stuff as well..

One nation made in a day
gathering of the Jews from all the nations
increase of knowledge
wars, rumor of wars famine diease
Jews will make the desert bloom again which they have done. ( they are the only ones to make Israel bloom)
The only dead language to be revived is Hebrew.
All of the items to be put into the new temple when it is built have been made and are waiting
Sanhedrin court has been brought back to life after 1600 yrs

This has already happen

ROTFLMAO.

Here are a few of the FAILED prophecies of the Holey Bible......

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Genesis

1. God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17

2. As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond. 4:12

3. God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14

4. How long was the Egyptian captivity? This verse says 400 years, but Ex.12:40 and Gal.3:17 say 430 years. 15:13

5. "In the fourth generation they [Abraham's descendants] shall come hither again." But, if we count Abraham, then their return occurred after seven generations: Abraham, Isaac (Gen.21:1-3), Jacob (Gen.25:19-26), Levi (Gen.35:22-23), Kohath (Ex.6:16), Amramn (Ex.6:18), and Moses (Ex.6:20). 15:16

6. God promises Abram's descendants the land of Canaan from the Nile to the Euphrates. But according to Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13 God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 15:18

7. God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 26:4

8. God renames Jacob twice (32:28, 35:10 ). God says that Jacob will henceforth be called Israel, but the Bible continues to call him Jacob anyway (47:28-29). And even God himself calls him Jacob in 46:2. 32:28, 35:10

9. God calls Jacob Jacob, though he said in Gen.32:28 and 35:10 that he would no longer be called Jacob but Israel. 46:2

10. God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3

11. The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. 49:10

12. "He washed his garments in wine ... His eyes shall be red with wine."
Did Judah really wash his clothes in wine? Were his eyes bloodshot from drinking too much? Or is this a prophecy of Jesus? (I didn't know Jesus had a drinking problem.) 49:11-12

13. Contrary to the prophecy in 48:21, Joseph died in Egypt, not Israel. Gen.50:24
Exodus

14. God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 33:2

15. In this verse God says he will write on the stone tablets, but in 34:27 he tells Moses to do the writing. 34:1
Numbers

16. "If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will ... speak unto him in a dream." Now there's a reliable way to communicate with someone! 12:6
Deuteronomy

17. God promises to cast out seven nations including the Amorites, Canaanites, and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 7:1

18. God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But according to Joshua ( 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13) and Judges (1:21, 27-36, 3:1-5) there were some people they just couldn't kill. 7:24

19. Those who do as God says will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. 7:14-15

20. Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1-5

21. False prophets are to be (you guessed it) executed. How do you know who is a false prophet? By whether or not their predictions come true. (Watch out Jehovah's Witnesses!) 18:20

22. Misquoted in Rom.10:8. 30:14

23. God promises to "destroy these nations before thee." That he didn't keep his promise see Jos.15:63, 16:10, Jg.1:21, 1:27-36, and 3:1-5. 31:3-6
Joshua

24. God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5

25. Joshua tells the Israelites that God will "without fail" drive out the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But later, the Bible tells us that he could not drive them out. 3:10

26. This verse says that Ai was never again occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity. 8:28

27. God promised the Israelites that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they pass through. But this verse shows that he didn't keep his promise since he couldn't drive out the Jebusites. 15:63

28. "And they drave not out the Canaanites." Once again God fails keep his promise to destroy all the people the Israelites encounter. 16:10

29. The Israelites, contrary to God's promises to them, could not drive out the Canaanites. 17:12-13

30. Joshua tells Manasseh that he will be able to drive out the Canaanites, but it turns out (see Jg.1:27-28) that he couldn't do it. 17:17-18

31. According to these verses, God fulfilled his promise to give the Israelites all of the lands that they encountered. But in several places the Bible tells us that these promises were not kept. 21:43-45
Judges

32. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites. 1:21, 27-30

33. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites. 3:1-5
2 Samuel

34. God says that Solomon's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16
1 Kings

35. God puts a "lying spirit" in the mouth of his prophets. 22:22
2 Kings

36. God promises Josiah that he will have a peaceful death. But Josiah's death was anything but peaceful. (2 Kg.23:29-30, 2 Chr.35:23-24) 22:20

37. In Jeremiah (34:4) God tells Zedekiah that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But this verse and Jer.52:10-11 say that he died a violent death in a foreign land. 25:7
2 Chronicles

38. God puts lies into the mouths of his prophets and speaks evil about people. 18:21-22

39. Josiah died from an arrow wound in battle, not "in peace" as is promised in 2 Kg.22:20. 35:23
Psalms

40. Misquoted in Heb.10:5-6. 40:6

41. Misquoted in Eph.4:8, which says: "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
Paul changed the words and meaning of the psalm from "received gifts" to "gave gifts". 68:18

42. Misquoted in Mt.13:35. 78:2-3

43. "I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 89:3-4, 34-37
Isaiah

44. God told Isaiah to tell Ahaz, the King of Judah, not to be concerned about Rezin (the king of Syria) or Pekah (the king of Israel). But according to 2 Chr.28:5-6 "God delivered him [Ahaz] into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter." 7:3-7

45. The King James Version mistranslates the Hebrew word "almah", which means "young woman" as "virgin". (The Hebrew word, "bethulah", means "virgin".) In addition, the young woman referred to in this verse was living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament. 7:14

46. These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20

47. Dragons will live in Babylonian palaces and satyrs will dance there. 13:21-22

48. This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1

49. The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5

50. "The land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt." Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt. 19:17

51. This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18

52. These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt. 19:18-21

53. These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists. 19:23-24

54. "They have ... changed the ordinance. There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone."
Is this a prophecy about prohibition in the United States? 24:5-11

55. "The priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink." You can't even trust a drunken prophet anymore. 28:7

56. Misquoted in Rom.9:33. 28:16

57. "The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold." Well, this is one prophecy that will never come true. Since the moon has no light of its own, but only reflects that of the sun, it could never shine like the sun. And the sun will not, at least not while there are humans to see it, shine 7 times as bright as it does now. 30:26

58. "The host of heaven shall be dissolved ... and ... shall fall down."
The stars will dissolve and fall from the sky. 34:4

59. "The cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it."
Edom will become a birdwatcher's paradise. 34:11

60. "Henceforth there shall no more come into thee [Jerusalem] the uncircumcised and the unclean." But many uncircumcised people have visited and occupied Jerusalem after this prophecy was made. 52:1

61. Nations that do not serve Israel will perish. 60:12

62. "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me."
These words were spoken by Isaiah and referred to Isaiah. They were not a prophecy about a future prophet, as Jesus claimed in Luke 4:16-19, where he supposedly read these verses in the synagogue while applying them to himself. 61:1-2
Jeremiah

63. Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened. 3:17

64. Apparently, prophets that preach good news and tidings anger God. So he will kill them. 5:12-13

65. "The prophets prophesy falsely." 5:31

66. God will make Jerusalem "a den of dragons." 9:11

67. Judah will become a desolate den of dragons. 10:22

68. "The prophets prophesy lies" in God's name. 14:14

69. God will destroy by famine and sword those who are misled by the prophets, as well as the prophets themselves. 14:15-16

70. Matthew (1:12) lists Jeconiah as an ancestor of Jesus -- which, according to this prophecy, disqualifies Jesus as the Messiah. 22:28-30

71. God finds some wicked prophets and priests. Like Jeremiah, maybe? 23:11

72. God says he is going to punish Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians for what they have done to his people -- even though God Himself is the one who made the Babylonians attack and enslave Judah! As part of the punishment God will take the land of the Babylonians and "make it perpetual desolations." A false prophecy, since present-day Iraq is quite occupied.25:12

73. God kills Hananiah for prophesying falsely. 28:16-17

74. God will kill those who refuse listen to his prophets. 29:19

75. Matthew (2:17-18) quotes this verse, claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (16 and 17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre. 31:15

76. Misquoted in Heb.8:9. 31:32

77. "David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 33:17

78. God lies to Zedekiah again by telling him that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But later (2 Kg.25:7 and Jer.52:10-11) he dies a violent death in a foreign land. 34:2, 5

79. The beginning of the end for Zedekiah. Despite God's earlier assurances (34:5) that he would die peacefully at home, here Zedekiah watches as his children are killed and then has his eyes put out and he is shackled and taken to Babylon. 39:6-7

80. All those who move to Egypt will die by the sword, famine, or pestilence. None "shall escape from the evil" that comes directly from God. But many, including Jews, have moved to Egypt and most seem to have escaped from God's promised evil. 42:15-18, 22

81. Jeremiah predicts that humans will never again live in Hazor, but will be replaced by dragons. But people still live there and dragons have never been seen. 49:33

82. God prophesies that Babylon will never again be inhabited. But it has been inhabited constantly since the prophecy was supposedly made, and is inhabited still today. 50:39

83. God says that Babylon will be desolate and uninhabited forever. He says that only dragons will live there. But Babylon has been dragon-free and continuously inhabited since then. 51:26, 29, 37, 43, 62, 64

84. God promised Zedekiah (Jer.34:5) that he would die peacefully and be buried with his fathers. But here we see that he died a miserable death in foreign land. 52:10-11
Lamentations

85. The "prophets also find no vision from the LORD." 2:9

86. "Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee." 2:14
Ezekiel

87. God deceives some of his prophets and then kills them for believing his lies. 14:9

88. Ezekiel Prophesies (in the 6th century BCE) that Ammonites will not be remembered any more. They continued to exist until the 2nd century CE. (And they are still remembered in the Bible.) 21:28-32

89. Ezekiel prophesies that Tyrus will be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar and will never be built again. But it wasn't destroyed, as evidenced by the visits to Tyre by Jesus and Paul (Mt.15:21, Mk.7:24, 31, Acts 21:3). 26:14,21, 27:36, 28:19

90. Ezekiel prophesies that Israel will reside in their homeland safely and securely, never again to fight neighboring nations. 28:24-26

91. Ezekiel makes another false prophecy: that Egypt would be uninhabited by humans or animals for forty years after being destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar. But there was never a time when Egypt was uninhabited. Humans and animals have lived there continuously since Ezekiel's prophecy. 29:10-13

92. "The day ... of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen." God plans to wipe out the heathen. When? Soon. Really soon. 30:3

93. The rivers of Egypt (identified as the Nile in NIV, NASB, and RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 30:12

..........and a few more FAILED Biblical prophecies...........

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

94. Ezekiel prophesies God will protect the Israelites from "the heathen". "And they shall be safe in their land." But the Israelites have never lived peacefully with their neighbors, and they've never been safe from attack. 34:28-29
Daniel

95. "I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." (If Daniel couldn't understand his visions, then how could anyone else?) This is the one true prophecy in the book of Daniel: "none understood it." 8:27
Hosea

96. "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight." This may be the verse referred to in Luke 18:31-33 and 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. However, Hosea 6:2 refers to the people living at the time (hence "us") who were to be torn up by God and therefore cannot be fulfilled by the the death and resurrection of Jesus. 6:2

97. The prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad." 9:7

98. "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."
Matthew (2:15) claims that the flight of Jesus' family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse ("Out of Egypt I have called my son"). 11:1
Joel

99. "The day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand." 1:15, 2:1, 3:14
Amos

100. Amos tells Amaziah that his wife will become a whore, his children will be killed, and he'll die in a pagan country. There is no evidence in the Bible (or anywhere else) that any of these things occurred. 7:17

101. God tells Amos that the end has come for the people of Israel. He won't wait any longer to kill them all. 8:2

102. "They shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them." Despite this promise, the Jews have been continually uprooted and their lives disrupted. Even today, their land ownership falls into question. 9:15
Obadiah

103. "For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen." If so, then it must have come and past, unnoticed, long before the birth of Christ. 15
Jonah

104. Jonah prophesies that in forty days Nineveh shall be overthrown. But it didn't happen because God repented (Jonah 3:10).3:4
Micah

105. Watch out for lying prophets that bite (with their teeth). 3:5

106. "The prophets thereof divine for money." Some things never change. 3:11

107. "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
The gospel of Matthew (2:5-6) claims that Jesus' birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.
1. "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4).

2. The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from verse 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did.

It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.5:2
Zephaniah
108. "The day of the LORD is at hand." 1:7

109. "The great day of the LORD is near." 1:14

110. "And men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen." 2:11

111. "The cormorant and the bittern shall lodge in the upper lintels of it."
A prophecy for birdwathers. 2:14
Haggai

112. In "a little while" God "will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land." 2:6
Zechariah

113. The gospels (especially Mt.21:4-5 and Jn.12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfils the prophecy of Zech.9:9. But the next few verses (9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army or a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy. 9:9

114. Israel shall never again be oppressed. Another obviously false prophecy; Israel has been occupied many times since the time of Zechariah. 9:8

115. The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in NIV, NASB, and RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 10:11

116. Misquote by Matthew of Zech. 11:12

117. Matthew (27:9) quotes this verse, but incorrectly attributes it to Jeremiah. 11:12

118. God plans to expel the prophets and unclean spirits. Sounds like a good plan to me. 13:2
Malachi

119. The gospel of Mark claims that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy given in Malachi. But the Malachi prophecy says that God will send Elijah before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD" in which the world will be consumed by fire. Yet John the Baptist flatly denied that he was Elijah (Elias) in John 1:21 and the earth was not destroyed after John's appearance. 3:1, 4:1, 5
Matthew

120. The prophecy given in Is.7:14 referred not to a virgin but to a young woman, living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament. 1:23

121. Matthew claims that Jesus' birth in Bethlehem fulfils the prophecy in Micah 5:2. But this is unlikely for two reasons.

* "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4).

* The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did.
It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan. 2:5-6

122. "Out of Egypt I have called my son,"
Matthew claims that the flight of Jesus' family to Egypt is a fulfillment of Hosea 11:1. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all, as is clear when the entire verse is quoted ("When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."). It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse. 2:15

123. Matthew quotes Jeremiah 31:15, claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this verse refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (16 and 17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre. 2:17-18

124. "He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew claims this was a fulfillment of prophecy, yet such a prophecy is not found anywhere in the Old Testament. 2:23

125. The devil correctly quotes scripture (Ps.91:11-12), while Jesus misquotes Deuteronomy by adding "only" to Dt.6:13. 4:6, 10

126. Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

127. Jesus tells his disciples that he will return before they can "go over the cities of Israel." Later (24:14) he says he will not come until the gospel is preached throughout the world. Well, his disciples went over the cities of Israel and then died waiting for the "return of the Lord." Now, nearly 2000 years later, and long after the gospel had been preached throughout the world, his followers still wait. 10:23

128. When Jesus and his disciples are accused of breaking the Sabbath, he excuses himself by referring to a scripture in which priests who "profaned the Sabbath" were blameless. But there is no such passage in the Old Testament. 12:5

129. Misquote of Ps.78:2-3 13:35

130. Jesus visits Tyre which according to Ezekiel (26:14, 21; 27:36, 28:19) was not supposed to exist. 15:21

131. Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. 16:28

132. This verse claims that Jesus fulfils the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9. But this cannot be since the person referred to in Zechariah (see verses 10-13) was both a military leader and the king of an earthly kingdom. 21:4

133. Jesus predicts the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners. 23:36

134. Jesus says the gospel will be preached to all nations "and then shall the end come. Well according to Paul the gospel has been preached to everyone (Rom.10:18) yet the end hasn't come. 24:14

135. Jesus is a false prophet, since he predicts that the end of the world will come within the lifetimes of his disciples. The world of course didn't end then, and according to Ec.1:4 it never will end. 24:34

136. "But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled." What scriptures? What prophets? There is no such prophecy in the Old Testament. 26:54-46

137. Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. 26:64

138. This is not a quote from Jeremiah, but a misquote of Zechariah (11:12-13). 27:9
Mark

139. Mark claims that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy given in Malachi (3:1, 4:1, 5). But the Malachi prophecy says that God will send Elijah before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD" in which the world will be consumed by fire. Yet John the Baptist flatly denied that he was Elijah (Elias) in John 1:21 and the earth was not destroyed after John's appearance. 1:2

140. Ezekiel (26:14, 21, 27:36) prophesied that Tyre would be completely destroyed, never to be built again. But it wasn't destroyed and continued to exist, as shown by this verse in which Jesus visits Tyre. 7:24, 31

141. Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. 9:1

142. Jesus shows that he is a false prophet by predicting his return and the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners. 13:30

143. Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. 14:62
Luke

144. Jesus misquotes Deuteronomy by adding "only" to Dt.6:13. 4:8

145. "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me."
These words were spoken by Isaiah and referred to Isaiah. They were not a prophecy about a future prophet, as Jesus claims here, where he supposedly read these verses in the synagogue while applying them to himself. 4:16-20

146. Jesus falsely predicts that some of his listeners would live to see him return and establish the kingdom of God. 9:27

147. Jesus prophesies that families will be divided because of him and his teachings. Sadly, this is one prophecy that has been fulfilled. 12:52-53

148. Jesus says that all that he describes (his return, signs in the sun, moon, and stars, etc.) will occur within the within the lifetime of his listeners. 21:32

149. Jesus claims that his suffering and death were a fulfillment of prophecy. But there is no such prophecy in the Old Testament. 24:44, 46
John

150. Jesus says that "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." 5:25

151. Jesus claims that Moses wrote about him. Where? It's a shame he didn't give us chapter and verse. 5:46

152. Jesus says that those who believe in him will, as the scripture says, have living waters flowing out of their bellies. Well that sounds like fun, but there is no such scripture in the Bible. 7:38

153. Jesus falsely prophesies that "there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." This will never happen as long a Christian beliefs are based on the Bible. 10:16

154. This verse claims that Jesus fulfils the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9. But this cannot be since the person referred to in Zechariah (see verses 10-13) was both a military leader and the king of an earthly kingdom. 12:15

155. Verse 33 says that during Jesus' crucifixion, the soldiers didn't break his legs because he was already dead. Verse 36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Ex.12:46, Num. 9:12 and Ps.34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 and Num.9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse 19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person. 19:33, 36

156. Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John. 21:22
Acts

157. Peter says that their strange behavior (speaking in tongues, etc.) was to be expected since they were living in "the last days." 2:17

158. Peter claims that Dt.18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23

159. This verse admits that God's promise to Abraham was not fulfilled. (See Gen.12:7, 13:15, 15:18, and 17:8) 7:5

160. Ezekiel (26:14, 21; 27:36) prophesied that Tyre would be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar, never to be built again. Yet it wasn't destroyed, as is evident from this verse. 12:20

161. Gen.49:10 says that all of Israel's kings will be from the tribe of Judah, yet we see in this verse that Israel's first king was from the tribe of Benjamin. 13:21

162. Paul quotes God as saying, "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will." But no such quote can be found in the Old Testament. (Although 1 Sam.13:14 does refer to David as "a man after his [God's] own heart." And it makes some sense, too, since David was nearly as cruel as the biblical God.) 13:22

163. In one of the few times that Paul quotes Jesus, he attributes to him words that are not found in the gospels. 20:35

164. Ezekiel (26:14, 21; 27:36) prophesied that Tyre would be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar, never to be built again. Yet it wasn't destroyed, as is evident from these verses. 21:3-4

165. These verses claim that Moses and the prophets prophesied that Jesus would suffer and rise from the dead. But in what scripture is such a prophecy made? 26:22-23
Romans

166. Misquote of Is.28:16. 9:33

167. Paul misquotes Dt.30:14, leaving off the words "that thou mayest do it" and adding "that is, the word of faith which we preach." By doing so he completely changed the meaning of quoted verse (that it is necessary to follow the Law) to support his doctrine of salvation by faith alone. 108:

168. Paul says that everyone, even in his day, had the gospel preached to them. Even the Native Americans, Asians, Pacific Islanders? In any case, if Paul is right about that, then Jesus is a false prophet, since he said he would return before the gospel was preached to everyone. (Mt.10:23) 10:18

169. Paul believed that the end of the world was coming soon. "The day is at hand." 13:11-12

170. Paul believed that Jesus would return and defeat Satan "shortly" -- within his own lifetime. 16:20
1 Corinthians

171. Paul tells the Corinthians to be good until "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (He expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes.) 1:7-8

172. Paul, like Jesus and the other New Testament writers, expects the end to come soon. "The time is short." So there's no time for sex or marriage since the world will be ending soon. 7:29

173. Paul says that the end of the world will come during his lifetime. 10:11, 15:51

174. "Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail."
Paul prophesies that all prophecies will fail. But since this itself is a prophecy, it also will fail (if the prophecy is correct), making it a false prophecy. 13:8

175. These verses claim that the scriptures prophesied that Jesus would suffer, die, and be resurrected from the dead. But where are the prophecies that are referred to here? Hosea 6:2 perhaps? But this verse refers to the people living at the time (hence "us") and therefore cannot be fulfilled by the the death and resurrection of Jesus. 15:3-4
Ephesians

176. Misquote of Ps.68:18, which says: "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men."
The words and meaning of the psalm were changed from "received gifts" to "gave gifts". 4:8
Philippians

177. Paul tells the Philippians to be good "till the day of Christ." So he must have expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes. 1:10

178. "The Lord is at hand." Paul thought that the end was near and that Jesus would return soon after he wrote these words. 4:5
1 Thessalonians

179. Paul expected Jesus to return within the lifetime of his followers. 3:13

180. Paul thought he would live to see the rapture. 4:15, 17

181. Paul prays that the Thessalonians will be good until Jesus returns, implying that he expected this to happen within their lifetimes. 5:23
2 Thessalonians

..........and a few more FAILED Biblical prophecies...........

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

182. The day of Christ is at hand?>
If Paul wrote this letter (and many scholars think he didn't1), then he is changing his mind about the timing of the Christ's return. The day of the Lord is no longer at hand. In fact it's nowhere near. Many things must happen first: there will be a great "falling away", a "man of sin" will be reveled, and Satan will show off his power by doing all kinds of signs and wonders. 2:2-9
1 Timothy

183. "Keep this commandment ... until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ."
The author expected Jesus to return within his lifetime. 6:14
Hebrews

184. The author of Hebrews believed that he was living in the "last days." 1:1-2

185. Misquote of Jer.31:32 8:9

186. Jesus sacrificed himself "in the end of the world." 9:26

187. Misquote of Ps.40:6 10:5-6

188. The author of Hebrews believed that Jesus would come "in a little while, and will not tarry." 10:37

189. In Genesis (13:15, 15:18, 17:8) and Exodus (32:13) God promises Abraham and his descendants "the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession." But here Paul admits that God's promise went unfulfilled. 11:9-13
James

190. James quotes a scripture that says, "The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy." But there is no such verse in the Bible. 4:5

191. James thought that Jesus would return soon. 5:8
1 Peter

192. Peter believed that he was living in the "last times." 1:5, 7, 20

193. "The end of all things is at hand." 4:7
2 Peter

194. "Where is the promise of his coming?"
The author of 2 Peter is aware of the failed expectations of early believers. He knows that Jesus, who was to come soon, didn't come at all. Many have begun to ask, "Where is the promise of his coming?" He tries to cover for Jesus by claiming that "one day with the Lord is as a thousand years." 3:4
1 John

195. John thinks he is living in "the last times." He "knows" this because he sees so many antichrists around. 2:18, 4:3

196. John warns his followers to get ready because Jesus is coming soon. 2:28

197. John expects to live to see Jesus return. 3:2
Jude

198. Jude says Enoch, "the seventh from Adam", prophesied that God would come with 10,000 of his saints "to execute judgment upon all." But this prophecy is from the Book of Enoch, not from the Bible. 14-15
Revelation

199. John believed that the things that he wrote about would happen soon, within his own lifetime. After nearly 2000 years, believers still believe that "the time is at hand" and that the events described in Revelation will "shortly come to pass." 1:1, 3

200. "Every eye shall see him," including those who executed him. Everyone will "wail because of him." But millions have lived and died without ever seeing him coming "with clouds." 1:7

201. John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying, "Behold, I come quickly." 3:11, 22:7, 12, 20

202. "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...." To John, the stars are just little lights a few miles away that can easily fall to the earth. 6:13

203. "And the name of the star is called Wormwood."
Some believers say that the 1986 nuclear disaster at Chernobyl was the fulfillment of the third trumpet in 8:10-11. 8:10-11

204. "And there was no more sea."
For an old sailor like me, this verse, if it were true, would be one of the saddest verses in the bible. 21:1

Wow, quite a list. I suspect, though, that there has been some "apology" written to "explain" away every one of them. What a sterile and futile thing it is to try to win religious arguments that way.

This is one of the more disturbing things some Christian missionaries do--they assert that the Bible is full of fulfilled prophesies, when in fact it is not. It is done via card-stacking (in this case telling only part of the story). I really doubt, however, that the missionaries know the full story, since they limit themselves to sources that are on their side.

One thing that is in evidence here is the lack of true believers, there are fulfilled prophesies and unfullfilled prophesies. But the theme here seems to try to disprove THE BIBLE and YAHWEH. You people can't get that done!!!

One thing that is in evidence here is the lack of true believers, there are fulfilled prophesies and unfullfilled prophesies. But the theme here seems to try to disprove THE BIBLE and YAHWEH. You people can't get that done!!!
To the contrary, his list did it quite well. If you would come to see your beliefs in an objective light without your tremendous emotional committment to them, you would realize how sadly wrong you are.

One thing that is in evidence here is the lack of true believers, there are fulfilled prophesies and unfullfilled prophesies.

We have believers and non-believers here. Muslims and Buddhists. Jew, Jehovah's Witness's and various other degrees of faith.


But the theme here seems to try to disprove THE BIBLE and YAHWEH. You people can't get that done!!!

This being a discussion forum, I feel compelled to ask you why you think we should accept your word when you present no evidence or reasoning to back up your statement.

I don't try to convice people to believe, i just say i do believe.. but yet i still get attacked saying its a religion of "desperation and despair"... i would say the only desperate people are the ones "hell-bent"(no pun intended) on trying to smear christianity..

I don't try to convice people to believe, i just say i do believe.. but yet i still get attacked saying its a religion of "desperation and despair".

No attack on you personally is intended.

I'm simply showing how mindless and irrational that the Christian belief system is.

.. i would say the only desperate people are the ones "hell-bent"(no pun intended) on trying to smear christianity..

LOL.

No "desperation" here.

I am a skeptic, and I feel it incumbent upon me as a sentient being to expose preposterous things like psychic spoon bending, ghosts, dowsing, demons, psychic readings, angels and all other manner of supernaturalist nonsense........including invisible deities and their virgin-born (:rolleyes:) mangod sons who 'die' and then return to life.

I just expose the bullshit to the light of day.The "smearing" occurs spontaneously.

I don't need to prove anything your words speak for them selves

One thing that is in evidence here is the lack of true believers, there are fulfilled prophesies and unfullfilled prophesies. But the theme here seems to try to disprove THE BIBLE and YAHWEH. You people can't get that done!!!

You cannot disprove the Flying Spagetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/)either, so we are at an impasse.

they were far more prominent in the nineteenth century (which saw the birth of movements like Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists--both seriously apocalyptic) than now.

The eruption of Krakatoa in 1883 sparked a round of worldwide doomsaying because the eruption turned the sky red even in America for a year afterwards.

I don't need to prove anything ......

When it comes to invisible deities, you can't prove anything.

And none of the hundreds of millions of superstitionists --of all varieties, pushing a thousand different "gods"-- that have preceeded you have ever offered the slightest scintilla of 'proof' either.

The engine that drives the radical Christian right in the United States - the most dangerous mass movement in American history - is not religiosity, but despair.



It is a movement built on the growing personal and economic despair of tens of millions of Americans. The danger of this theology of despair is that it says that nothing in the world is worth saving. It rejoices in cataclysmic destruction. It welcomes the frightening advance of global warming, the spiralling wars and violence in the Middle East and the poverty and neglect that have blighted American urban and rural landscapes as encouraging signs that the end of the world is close.

It is a movement built on the growing despair of Americans who have watched helplessly as their communities were plunged into poverty by the flight of manu facturing jobs, their families and neighbourhoods torn apart by neglect and indifference. They eventually lost hope that America was a place where they had a future.

This despair crosses economic boundaries, enveloping many in the middle class who live trapped in huge, soulless exurbs where, lacking any form of community rituals or centres, they also feel deeply isolated, vulnerable and lonely.

Those in despair are the most easily manipulated by demagogues, who promise a fantastic utopia, whether it is a worker's paradise, liberté-égalité-fraternité, or the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Those in despair search desperately for a solution, the warm embrace of a community to replace the one they lost, a sense of purpose and meaning in life, the assurance that they are protected, loved and worthwhile.

During the past two years of work on the book "American Fascists: the Christian right and the war on America", I kept encountering this deadly despair.

Driving down a highway lined with gas stations, fast-food restaurants and dollar stores, I often got vertigo, forgetting for a moment if I was in Detroit or Kansas City or Cleveland.

There are parts of the United States, including whole sections of former manufacturing centres such as Ohio, that resemble the developing world, with boarded-up storefronts, dilapidated houses, potholed streets and crumbling schools.

The end of the world is no longer an abstraction to many Americans.

In the United States we have turned our backs on the working class, with much of the worst assaults, such as Nafta and welfare reform, pushed though during President Clinton's Democratic administration.

We stand passively and watch an equally pernicious assault on the middle class. Anything that can be put on software, from architecture to engineering to finance, will soon be handed to workers overseas who will be paid a third of what their American counterparts receive and who will, like some 45 million Americans, have no access to health insurance or benefits.

There has been, along with the creation of an American oligarchy, a steady Weimarisation of the working class.

The top 1 per cent of households in the US have more wealth than the bottom 90 per cent combined. As Plutarch reminded us: "An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics."

Christians who long for the Apocalypse

The danger of this theology of despair is that it says that nothing in the world is worth saving. It rejoices in cataclysmic destruction.

It welcomes the frightening advance of global warming, the spiralling wars and violence in the Middle East and the poverty and neglect that have blighted American urban and rural landscapes as encouraging signs that the end of the world is close.

Those who cling to this magical belief, which is a bizarre form of spiritual Darwinism, will be raptured upwards while the rest of us will be tormented with horrors by a warrior Christ and finally extinguished.

The obsession with apocalyptic violence is an obsession with revenge. It is what the world, and we who still believe it is worth saving, deserve.

Those who lead the movement give their followers moral licence to direct this rage and yearning for violence against all who refuse to submit to the movement, from liberals and "secular humanists", to "nominal Christians", intellectuals, gays and lesbians, to Muslims.

The leaders of the Christian right, from James Dobson to Pat Robertson, call for a theocratic state that will, if it comes to pass, bear within it many of the traits of classical fascism.

All radical movements need a crisis or a prolonged period of instability to achieve power. We are not in a period of crisis now.

But another catastrophic terrorist attack on American soil, a series of huge environmental disasters or an economic meltdown will hand to these radicals the opening they seek.

Manipulating our fear and anxiety, promising to make us safe and secure, giving us the assurance that they can vanquish the forces that mean to do us harm, these radicals, many of whom have achieved powerful positions in the executive and legislative branches of government, as well as the military, will ask us only to surrender our rights, to pass them the unlimited power they need to battle the forces of darkness.

They will have behind them tens of millions of angry, disenfranchised Americans longing for revenge and yearning for a mythical utopia, Americans who embraced a theology of despair because we offered them nothing else. --------- Chris Hedges @ New Statesman

http://www.newstatesman.com/200701290030

shit man, sounds more liek the democratic party to me

I don't need to prove anything your words speak for them selves

Brilliant. I guess I shouldn't have expected anything more.

One thing that is in evidence here is the lack of true believers"If you believed then you'd believe."

funˇdaˇmenˇtalˇism (fŭn'də-měn'tl-ĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

Heaven forbid that anyone should actually believe and follow what the Bible teaches. Certainly we are not to show tolerance for other views.

fun·da·men·tal·ism (fŭn'də-měn'tl-ĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles........Certainly we (Christians) are not to show tolerance for other views.

Good point.

As evidenced by the fact that BibleGod had many thousands of people who did not "believe in" Him hacked to death with swords, adherants of/believers in the god of the Old Testament are certainly not here to show tolerance for other views.

When it comes to invisible deities, you can't prove anything.

And none of the hundreds of millions of superstitionists --of all varieties, pushing a thousand different "gods"-- that have preceeded you have ever offered the slightest scintilla of 'proof' either.
And you can't even "prove" I exist. Hang it up with your mantra that there is no proof.

Evidence is the issue, not proof, and evidence that God exists can and has often been produced. Neither of us are persuaded by the evidence, but that does not justify assertions that there is "not even one scintilla."

Hang it up with your mantra that there is no proof.

I decline. I require some small, infinitessimal shred of evidence or proof before i "take it on faith".


Evidence is the issue, not proof,....

Okey dokey.

and evidence that God exists can and has often been produced.

Speak for yourself.

I have never been presented with the slightest shred of it.

Neither of us are persuaded by the evidence, but that does not justify assertions that there is "not even one scintilla."

We disagree.

I for one have never been presented with *one scintilla* of "evidence". None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Since the very beginning of scientific research, the scientific community has not been presented with *one scintilla* of repeatable, verifiable "evidence" of the existence of the supernatural, much less of the existence of a "Christian god".

I decline. I require some small, infinitessimal shred of evidence or proof before i "take it on faith".




Okey dokey.



Speak for yourself.

I have never been presented with the slightest shred of it.



We disagree.

I for one have never been presented with *one scintilla* of "evidence". None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Since the very beginning of scientific research, the scientific community has not been presented with *one scintilla* of repeatable, verifiable "evidence" of the existence of the supernatural, much less of the existence of a "Christian god".
One only has to look at stars and realize that these are evidence of God. So is the existence and persistence of the world's great theist traditions. Many see the hand of God in the mathematics of the universe and in the course of human history.

The core mysteries of existence and of mind also provide evidence. I think, ultimately, the greatest evidence is in human faith.

You seem to have an arrogant and blind determination to be blind to these things, which is too bad for you. Just remind yourself that some great men and women, many much smarter and better informed than you, find this evidence persuasive.

I do not say that I am persuaded (in fact I think the countering evidence is stronger), but I certainly do not parade around saying there is no evidence when the evidence is so obvious. There is a case--a good, rational case--for theism.

If you were a more tolerant person, you would accept that these great questions can never be completely resolved, and that the views of others are just as worthy as yours.

I for one have never been presented with *one scintilla* of "evidence". None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Since the very beginning of scientific research, the scientific community has not been presented with *one scintilla* of repeatable, verifiable "evidence" of the existence of the supernatural, much less of the existence of a "Christian god".

As we see in courts everyday, evidence is often up to personal interpretation.

If there is "God," I would not think a particular religion has a monopoly on it/him/them.

God, would be a human terminology.
We witness many things that we do not understand. A blanket observation that god is the cause of occurances or creations, that we do not understand, eliminates the need to look further. The observation, that bad things that happen to us are the fault of a Satan creature, helps relieve the guilt of bad choices in our personal lives.

A promised Heaven reward, keeps the masses in-check; possibly, if the truth were known, people would be quite unruly and impossible to govern.

There is also the possibility that, if a god exists, a god would reserve "proof" of his existance for those that believed in him/it.

I would also like to add that I do not believe all Christians, that I have met, seem to suffer from despair/desperation. Most seemed quite content and comfortable with life and their beliefs.

I think maybe "freethinker" expects a God who allows himself to be the subject of experimentation, or at a minimum throws a lightning bolt here and there so that people will keep the faith.

The reality is that anything presenting itself as God this way would almost certainly be a fraud. As they say, any sufficiently advanced technology will seem divine. A real God would know this, and so would not engage in parlor tricks.

One only has to look at stars and realize that these are evidence of God. So is the existence and persistence of the world's great theist traditions. Many see the hand of God in the mathematics of the universe and in the course of human history.

The core mysteries of existence and of mind also provide evidence. I think, ultimately, the greatest evidence is in human faith.

You seem to have an arrogant and blind determination to be blind to these things, which is too bad for you. Just remind yourself that some great men and women, many much smarter and better informed than you, find this evidence persuasive.

I do not say that I am persuaded (in fact I think the countering evidence is stronger), but I certainly do not parade around saying there is no evidence when the evidence is so obvious. There is a case--a good, rational case--for theism.

If you were a more tolerant person, you would accept that these great questions can never be completely resolved, and that the views of others are just as worthy as yours.

I understand where you are coming from here Thislin, but I also understand FT's point here as well. I can't look at the stars and see them as "evidence" that God exists, because the connection between the two hasn't been made sufficiently IMO. If we look at a termite nest we see a very complex structure built by seemingly unintelligent creatures. A cursory examination of these structures might lead some to conclude that God is somehow involved in the construction of these nests, but since we've studied termites a little deeper, we understand that this isn't the case. Looking up at the stars and declaring God's hand is at work there shows a lack of understanding more than a recognition of the divine. To declare this as "evidence" IMO dilutes the meaning of the word "evidence" almost to the point of making the word meaningless.

In the discussion of evidence supporting the existence of the divine, the only evidence worth including in the discussion would be that evidence that cannot possibly be interpreted in any way other than supporting the existence of the divine. Anything else and we end up throwing intellectual virgins into the volcano.

Good point.

As evidenced by the fact that BibleGod had many thousands of people who did not "believe in" Him hacked to death with swords, adherants of/believers in the god of the Old Testament are certainly not here to show tolerance for other views.


He is the Creator, and can do with us as He wishes. YAHWEH can destroy this entire earth if He wishes and I wouldn't have it any other way.
What is good about the 44,000,000 unborn babies who have been aborted, murders, homosexuals, STD including AIDS, slavery, starvation,stealing, gossip, lies,ect ect ect.

Why don't we just start a "I hate christianity" thread.. there seems to be an abundance of them on the subject.

First of all, I am a little piqued that you say I don't understand FT, when I went out of my way to say that I don't find the evidence for God persuasive either--I just understand how others could.

That point made, I think you err in demanding proof from those you disagree with but only demainding reasonable evidence from those you agree with. Everyone does this, and it is something to be aware of.

In the case at hand, your statement that you see no association between the heavens and God is a demand for proof. The evidence is that the heavens are as they are because of subtly refined physical laws, perhaps themselve derived from even subtler logical principles. This can easily be seen as evidence of God. As I say, it is evidence, not proof, but I do find it wonderous that the whole universe exists because of logic.

On the other hand, that a termite mound organizes itself automatically because of the effects of natural selection on these communities can be understood, but is that proof? It is only good evidence.

Why don't we just start a "I hate christianity" thread.. there seems to be an abundance of them on the subject.
Since "Janrich" seems to be the most vocal defendent of Christianity on these boards, I can see how one could develop a hatred.

We need to remember that most Christians (I sure would hope) are not like that.

yea, but its still bad in here.

I guess i'll just let the FT's scare everyone from christianity... IF anyone wants to know what i think, i'll say it, but i won't go on a "crusade" to try to bury the religion like he has. And thats the thing, he pretty much only bashes christianity.. he really doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the radical islamo-fascists who hijacked islam and kill innocent people in the name of "Allah".. its those damned christians who invite people to their churches.. THEY are the EVIL ONES!!!

I suspect if a fundamentalist Muslim were to appear on these boards, FT would respond in the same sort of way.

That is a particular infestation that this board seems to be free of. They are notorious for creating dozens of threads in one sitting, all with titles in ALL CAPS, and so on.

FT hates all religions, but I'd say that Christianity he has a personal problem with, and the trio of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are much worse to him than others. And I agree that they've probably caused more harm than other religions, but mostly because they have many more followers...

He is the Creator, and can do with us as He wishes.
This is not the case with every religion and belief. Obedience is perhaps strongly ingrained in the monotheistic Judeo-Christian religions, but I think many other god-beliefs naturally invite the mortals to judge god's (or gods') actions. There is even myths and folklores about gods whose power debilitate over time due to dwindling followers, and then they are forgotten. There is a very humanistic logic that goes into this: gods are like kings, and whether they are good kings or tyrants must be judged by their people. People follow them only if they are good gods.

First of all, I am a little piqued that you say I don't understand FT, when I went out of my way to say that I don't find the evidence for God persuasive either--I just understand how others could.

You did not say --"Well, Christians have provided what they consider to be evidence, but I am not perusaded by it"

You flat out made the assertion that evidence for their so-called "god" HAD been produced by them. The fact is that NO *evidence* has ever been supplied by all the superstitionists that ever lived. Zero.

Statements such as your inane --"Well, just look up at the STARS!!....the stars themselves provide evidence of the existence of God!-- claim does NOT comprise any evidence whatsoever..


The evidence is that the heavens are as they are because of subtly refined physical laws, perhaps themselve derived from even subtler logical principles. This can easily be seen as evidence of God. As I say, it is evidence, not proof,.........

I see the problem now.

You and I have radically different interpretations of the word --*evidence*.

What is good about the 44,000,000 unborn babies who have been aborted, murders, homosexuals, STD including AIDS, slavery, starvation,stealing, gossip, lies,ect ect ect.

What is 'good' about them?

Why don't you ask the unseen, omnipotent supernatural being that ---according to you and YOUR ideology--- "created" all of those things...................?!?!?!?!

Since "Janrich" seems to be the most vocal defendent of Christianity on these boards, I can see how one could develop a hatred.

We need to remember that most Christians (I sure would hope) are not like that.


So posting verses from The Bible developes hatred does it. Well if the world hates me I am on the right path. Does that mean the "christians" you like are of this world (:

John 15:19

19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
NKJV

So posting verses from The Bible developes hatred does it. Well if the world hates me I am on the right path. Does that mean the "christians" you like are of this world (:

John 15:19

19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
NKJV
I wonder what it is about you that irritates me so much. I know lots of sanctimouious, self-righteous, dogmatic types, and manage to deal with them without getting emotional. I guess you are a special breed in some way.

So posting verses from The Bible developes hatred does it. Well if the world hates me I am on the right path. Does that mean the "christians" you like are of this world (:

John 15:19

19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
NKJV

Sounds like rationalization for bad behavior.

not on my part, I do as YAHSHUA asks, you might try it.

not on my part, I do as YAHSHUA asks, you might try it.

Is that so? I would suggest you read the fifth chapter of Matthew. I doubt you do everything there. For one thing, you wouldn't be bragging about how you follow God's word so much.