The religion of peace (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/17/warwithin.overview/index.html)speaks of love and understanding.

Radicals vs. moderates: British Muslims at crossroads

POSTED: 1:50 p.m. EST, January 18, 2007

DUBLIN, Ireland (CNN) -- At a recent debate over the battle for Islamic ideals in England, a British-born Muslim stood before the crowd and said Prophet Mohammed's message to nonbelievers is: "I come to slaughter all of you."
"We are the Muslims," said Omar Brooks, an extremist also known as Abu Izzadeen. "We drink the blood of the enemy, and we can face them anywhere. That is Islam and that is jihad."
Anjem Choudary, the public face of Islamist extremism in Britain, added that Muslims have no choice but to take the fight to the West.
"What are Muslims supposed to do when they are being killed in the streets in Afghanistan and Baghdad and Palestine? Do they not have the same rights to defend themselves? In war, people die. People don't make love; they kill each other," he said.
But in the same debate, held on the prestigious grounds of Dublin's Trinity College in October, many people in the crowd objected.
"These people, ladies and gentleman, have a good look at them. They actually believe if you kill women and children, you will go to heaven," said one young Muslim who waved his finger at the radicals.
"This is not ideology. It's a mental illness."

"These people, ladies and gentleman, have a good look at them. They actually believe if you kill women and children, you will go to heaven," said one young Muslim who waved his finger at the radicals.
"This is not ideology. It's a mental illness."

Very true...

At a recent debate over the battle for Islamic ideals in England, a British-born Muslim stood before the crowd and said Prophet Mohammed's message to nonbelievers is: "I come to slaughter all of you."[/B]
"We are the Muslims," said Omar Brooks, an extremist also known as Abu Izzadeen. "We drink the blood of the enemy, and we can face them anywhere. That is Islam and that is jihad."

I am sure if the Western Imperial Forces stay away from their lands, their resources, and stop killing their people, they will change their present attitude... It isn't madness, it is desperation what drives some people to pay back with blood for the blood spilled by their countrymen in the hands of the Imperial Forces. The words, "if you are slapped on your right cheek, give your enemy your left cheek", is only a Christian believe, (which BTW not one single Christian follows).

The words, "if you are slapped on your right cheek, give your enemy your left cheek", is only a Christian believe, (which BTW not one single Christian follows).

So you've polled and interviewed every single christian in the world then?

I am sure if the Western Imperial Forces stay away from their lands, their resources, and stop killing their people, they will change their present attitude... It isn't madness, it is desperation what drives some people to pay back with blood for the blood spilled by their countrymen in the hands of the Imperial Forces.

You have GOT to be kidding me...

Liberal, you are aptly named, because you are just SOOO forgiving of actually psychos in our world, and then try to make a big fuss out of George Bush. Quit making excuses for these savages! They run a cult, it isn't the muslim religion, it's a hijacked form of it. They want to kill us, and they have been doing this for years. They did it WELL BEFORE we were over in Iraq, Afhganistan, or anywhere else.

Geez get a grip.

"What are Muslims supposed to do when they are being killed in the streets in Afghanistan and Baghdad and Palestine?


Good question.

Actually, two questions.

What are Muslims supposed to do when they are being killed in the streets in Afghanistan and Baghdad and Palestine?

and

What else did the dimwitted Western leadership think they'd do upon seeing hundreds of thousands of their brother and sister Muslims being killed in the streets of Iraq and Afghanistan and Palestine?

Score so far, as of January 2007;

Westerners killed because of actions taken by Muslims-- between 6 and 7 thousand.

Muslims killed because of actions taken by the West (iow, the US and Britain) -- between 1 and 2 million.

They did it WELL BEFORE we were over in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else.

Your "WELL BEFORE" needs to be filled in, with the rest of the interventions of the Western Empires in their lands... How long have all these Empires been in those lands?, probably over 100 or so years, since the use of OIL became the main source of energy, and the lack of it in all these western empires. How many of those who opposed any foreign nation in their lands have been assasinated by the "WEST"?

Muslims killed because of actions taken by the West (iow, the US and Britain) -- between 1 and 2 million.
I'd like to see 5 sources of documentation for this fact.

Both Liberal and Freethinker see the world through Muslim glasses. Before the European nations entered the Middle East the area was controlled by Turkey. Were exploitation the primary cause of the current round of terrorism Turkey would also be a target. Turkey is not a target because Turkey is a Muslim nation and not a Christian one.

I am sure if the Western Imperial Forces stay away from their lands, their resources, and stop killing their people, they will change their present attitude

And there we have the liberal plan to fight terrorism in a nutshell folks.

do you think if we just left all thier countries and went home Al Qeada would put away their kalishnikovs and go back to being peaseant farmers?

No, they'd just go back to killing each other with those AKs. And peasant farming. People gotta eat, you know.

We need to take one of two attitudes with violence elsewhere in the world.

We should either A) divide up the Middle East with the other powerful nations that want the area, then forcibly annex the area, possibly starting WW3 in the process, a war we and our allies would undoubtably win; or B) get our filthy little mitts out of the cookie pot. Cause this mealy-mouthed response to violence in the Middle East and elsewhere ain't doing shit.

Either, we solve the world's problems, or we don't give a shit. Anything in between is totally ineffective and wasteful.

And there we have the liberal plan to fight terrorism in a nutshell folks. do you think if we just left all thier countries and went home Al Qeada would put away their kalishnikovs and go back to being peaseant farmers?

I don't know exactly what they'd DO in their own lands, but I am absolutely convinced of what Al Qeada would NOT do here; target us with terrorist atacks.

lol, sure, al qeada always asks its targets what side of the political spectrum they fall on before slicing their heads off :rolleyes:

I'd like to see 5 sources of documentation for this fact.
I won't believe it unless you get me 250 sources ;)

Threaten us, will you, Mr. Izzadeen? That's a hoot. Trust me, we're a WHOLE LOT meaner than you are. You wanna talk blood? Fine. We wrote a dissertation on it when we received our doctorate in death. You wanna count the ways we can burn you? Knock yourself out.

Westerners killed because of actions taken by Muslims-- between 6 and 7 thousand.

Muslims killed because of actions taken by the West (iow, the US and Britain) -- between 1 and 2 million.
Exactly. And the funny thing is that's only because they caught us with our pants down.

They'll never learn, will they?

This one's for you, FT... ;)

http://www.brownielocks.com/godblesstheusaWAVE.html

In freethinkers world no one does anything except in response to what the west does

In freethinkers world no one does anything except in response to what the west does
Well, we're the most evil people in the world, Trav...

Didn't you get the memo?

And there we have the liberal plan to fight terrorism in a nutshell folks.

do you think if we just left all thier countries and went home Al Qeada would put away their kalishnikovs and go back to being peaseant farmers?


A major part of the problem is that there are still a large number of "peasant farmers" in these countries despite the fact that they control, or should control, one of the most sought after commodities on Earth. The money we spend at the gas pump doen't go to the peasant farmers, it goes to despotic governments in those countries who use the revenues to buy arms, a lot of American arms among them, to keep the peasant farmers under control. We say we're in Iraq to spread democracy, but we're not trying to spread democracy in Saudi Arabia are we? No, we're perfectly happy to buy their oil from the House of Saud, and we're perfectly happy to sell F-15's to the House of Saud to help them hold onto the throne. The "spreading democracy" argument might be very useful to our government to convince Americans to go along with the war in Iraq, but I'm reasonably certain the average Middle-Easterner sees it for the lie that it is. Our foreign policy decisions in the Middle East are extremely short-sighted and always have been. It's only a matter of time before the House of Saud is overthrown along with any other governments in the region that are not working for the interests of their people. If we're on the side of those governments, a lot of hate is going to come our way, and rightfully so.

A major part of the problem is that there are still a large number of "peasant farmers" in these countries despite the fact that they control, or should control, one of the most sought after commodities on Earth. The money we spend at the gas pump doen't go to the peasant farmers, it goes to despotic governments in those countries who use the revenues to buy arms, a lot of American arms among them, to keep the peasant farmers under control. We say we're in Iraq to spread democracy, but we're not trying to spread democracy in Saudi Arabia are we? No, we're perfectly happy to buy their oil from the House of Saud, and we're perfectly happy to sell F-15's to the House of Saud to help them hold onto the throne. The "spreading democracy" argument might be very useful to our government to convince Americans to go along with the war in Iraq, but I'm reasonably certain the average Middle-Easterner sees it for the lie that it is. Our foreign policy decisions in the Middle East are extremely short-sighted and always have been. It's only a matter of time before the House of Saud is overthrown along with any other governments in the region that are not working for the interests of their people. If we're on the side of those governments, a lot of hate is going to come our way, and rightfully so.
You're probably right.

My mom had a friend when I was little who was a Saudi princess. She had run away from home so she could go to college in America and avoid an arranged marriage. Last I heard though, she'd gone home to visit her mother and sisters, and her father won't let her leave.

Muslims killed because of actions taken by the West (iow, the US and Britain) -- between 1 and 2 million.

I'd like to see 5 sources of documentation for this fact.

It is a matter of common knowledge that something approaching 1 million Iraqis died durng the 13 years of brutal U.S. sanctions.

The recent Lancet study revealed that between 500,00 and 700,000 have been killed there since 2003.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

The US Empire's Accomplishments:
As of 1/15/07

3,024 US Troops Dead

22,834 US Troops Wounded

Estimated up to 100,000 Wounded



654,965 Iraqi Civilians killed - Lancet,10/12/06

Does not include 567,000+ Iraqi children
killed by 13 years of US sanctions, nor the number of adult deaths due to lack of medical care/equipment/medicine), nor any of
several hundred thousand Iraqis that were
killed by the US military in Iraq in Gulf War I.

The sum for these deaths are well over 1 million---- caused by policies orchestrated by both Democrats and Republicans.

See photos here -- http://www.marchforjustice.com/shock&awe.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Add to this the deaths from the 11-years of
brutal US sanctions on Iraq, which killed
over 500,000+ Iraqi children (confirmed by Secty of State Madeleine Albright on 5/12/96 on "60 Minutes"), and the number of Iraqi civilians killed
by Americans is well over 1,000,000.
(Some estimates go as high as 2,000,000)

In freethinkers world no one does anything except in response to what the west does.

I must agree with Freethinker. And it is the real world, so which is yours?

If a parent is bad, disobey the parent. How is it that an extremest does not conclude that if our god demands such things, he is in fact a bad parent (a bad god), and so I should not obey him anymore? Surely all those non-radical muslims have done so.

A major part of the problem is that there are still a large number of "peasant farmers" in these countries despite the fact that they control, or should control, one of the most sought after commodities on Earth. The money we spend at the gas pump doen't go to the peasant farmers, it goes to despotic governments in those countries who use the revenues to buy arms, a lot of American arms among them, to keep the peasant farmers under control. We say we're in Iraq to spread democracy, but we're not trying to spread democracy in Saudi Arabia are we? No, we're perfectly happy to buy their oil from the House of Saud, and we're perfectly happy to sell F-15's to the House of Saud to help them hold onto the throne. The "spreading democracy" argument might be very useful to our government to convince Americans to go along with the war in Iraq, but I'm reasonably certain the average Middle-Easterner sees it for the lie that it is. Our foreign policy decisions in the Middle East are extremely short-sighted and always have been. It's only a matter of time before the House of Saud is overthrown along with any other governments in the region that are not working for the interests of their people. If we're on the side of those governments, a lot of hate is going to come our way, and rightfully so.
The United States funded many strong-man governments not only in the middle east, as Saddam once was, but in Central and South America. The key to getting such support was a pro-US attitude, which was critical to the chess-like strategy we had for fighting the Cold War.

Those in power do not care how these strong-man governments run their countries. Their only concern is amenability to exploitative US foreign policy that allows our corporations unfettered access to their natural resources. Where Saddam went wrong is in not playing nicely to US interests. So, we take him and his disrespectful government out, and replace it with something "better."

Only the Cold War is over, and the information age is in full force. We cannot delude our population anymore with gross nationalism. Well, except simpletons like Trav, and fascists like Prae. ;)

The government never cared about human rights violations, the weapons of mass destruction we sold him, or any of the things we cited as reasons for his removal from power.

Nor do we care what happens in the country now. We could spend the time and money necessary to rebuild Iraq's bureaucracy and secure the country properly. It is very much within the realm of what the US is capable of. We could probably even do it with the amount of time and resources we're currently sinking into the land now. But our focus is wrong. We are spending our money exploiting the resources of Iraq and fighting terrorism, rather than state-building. We are putting band-aids on the problems of the Iraqi people, not for the sake of the Iraqis, but for our own fickle population. We couldn't care less. The government doing these things so they can look like they're "doing something."