take your pick (http://news.google.com/news?num=30&hl=en&edition=us&q=Episcopal-Church)


Now what's going to happen? Are we possibly witnessing the greatest schism sinceMartin Luther (http://www.educ.msu.edu/homepages/laurence/reformation/Luther/Luther.htm) nailed his thoughts to the doors of a German church?
The church is shaking on its' foundations over this one. Are the faithful ready to make the leap required to fully accept openly homosexual individuals into the leadership of their chosen religious society? Going to be an interesting ride.

First they are on TV, then marriage, now the church. I for one am sick of the poor fag thing in this country. If one CHOOSES to be gay then keep it to themselfs. Pretty soon we will be treating them like they are a different race.

Then heterosexuals should keep their fucking mouths shut also. Waaaa Waaaa, she broke my heart, waaa waaaa love this, love that, FUCK YOU. Homophobes complain about gays, gays complain about homophobes. People complaining and complaining. Shut up. This is quite big, the first gay bishop? What, thats unheard of. They must be straight, but then you have to stay celibate. Oh fucking well, why does it matter if they are gay or straight, they don't get to express it. Straight people keep that to your fucking self, and don't make it the norm, "CONFORM OR FUCK OFF!" You take your master race bullshit and leave. He was open about being gay, because that is basically unheard of amongst puritan morons. Now homophobes whine and complain about the possibility of him going up on the fucking religous ladder. So, nazi, shut your mouth too.

Originally posted by mad dog
First they are on TV, then marriage, now the church. I for one am sick of the poor fag thing in this country. If one CHOOSES to be gay then keep it to themselfs. Pretty soon we will be treating them like they are a different race.
Oh shut the hell up. You know nothing about gay people at all. I will say it again: How the hell can one choose who one is attracted to?! Neither of us chose the fact that we are attracted to women! Our hormones made the choice for us! Same thing with gay people! Something in them clicked, either from a gene, or from their upbringing/environment, or both, and that made them gay. They didn't choose it. Why would they anyway, with so many idiots like you persecuting them?

And don't give me any B.S. about gay people who "converted" to heterosexuality, there are no documented cases from reliable sources.

Words of wisdom from that pearl of intellect, our boy Blob. You never fail to impress the rest of us with your articulation. Remember: "....profanity is the linguistic crutch of the uneducated ... motherfucker....."

Goddamn whos gives a shit!!! Religion is nothing but made up bullshit anyway!! Somewhere along the human timeline everyone started beliving that theres this little invicible man up there watching down on us looking out for everything. WTF!!! I dont get that shit man ppl just need to bump religion off there to do list and get a real life and as for those gay fuckers there goin to hell anyway so why worry about them!!! ROCK ON!!!

Wow Maddog, it looks like you incurred the wrath of the gay crusaders.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! For real havok man these dudes got pissed lol. I got pissed about the religion i could care less about the gay thing. ROCK ON!!!

Excuse me...if there is NO God, how can there be a hell? You cannot have one without the other...it seems to me that hell exists because God cast down the dark angel...an invicible little man? God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient - not a "Wizard of Oz" type character. Perhaps you should try again, little one...

Words of wisdom from that pearl of intellect, our boy Blob. You never fail to impress the rest of us with your articulation. Remember: "....profanity is the linguistic crutch of the uneducated ... motherfucker....."
Eh, oh well... as long as my point gets accross :D

Wow Maddog, it looks like you incurred the wrath of the gay crusaders.
Rawr! Now I shall slay you in the name of "god"!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! For real havok man these dudes got pissed lol. I got pissed about the religion i could care less about the gay thing. ROCK ON!!!
Duh... duhh.... is your brain not working? I think this thread was flung into the gay thing again after mad dog's bigoted and pompus comment. I think we left religion behind.

Excuse me...if there is NO God, how can there be a hell?
Of course you can. I think we call it Earth though.

Jesus christ man this forum is full of smartass's!!! I thought the gay bishop thing and religion tied in together uh maybe i was wrong. But it seems to me some of yall take this a little over the edge i mean my gosh its just a website calm down. Anyway es478910 whatever your name is I dont care if there is a god or not i was just making a statement like everyone else geez. ROCK ON!!!

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Oh shut the hell up. You know nothing about gay people at all. I will say it again: How the hell can one choose who one is attracted to?! Neither of us chose the fact that we are attracted to women! Our hormones made the choice for us! Same thing with gay people! Something in them clicked, either from a gene, or from their upbringing/environment, or both, and that made them gay. They didn't choose it. Why would they anyway, with so many idiots like you persecuting them?

And don't give me any B.S. about gay people who "converted" to heterosexuality, there are no documented cases from reliable sources.



I couldn't agree more!!!!!

I watched a documentary once, which proved this same argument. It is not a choice, it is the way these people are made. Why would anyone make the choice to be pursecuted and shunned by many in society?

Try having a little more tolerance. Are your male egos a little threatened by a gay person?

Try looking at them as people, not sterotyping them by their sexual preferences.

Originally posted by mad dog
First they are on TV, then marriage, now the church. I for one am sick of the poor fag thing in this country. If one CHOOSES to be gay then keep it to themselfs. Pretty soon we will be treating them like they are a different race.

There I posted it again show me where I bashed anyone ARSEHOLES??????? All I said is that I am sick of hearing poor gay this and poor gay that............. If some one is gay then fine do your thing, whatever, don't care. I am just getting sick of hearing about it. Yes, I am whinning not about gays, but about hearing about them in everything. There is more in life then Fags.......So kiss my A**

There I posted it again show me where I bashed anyone ARSEHOLES???????
"poor fag thing", "CHOOSES to be gay"

All I said is that I am sick of hearing poor gay this and poor gay that............. If some one is gay then fine do your thing, whatever, don't care. I am just getting sick of hearing about it.
Maybe you're hearing about it because they can't "do their thing"; they can't marry, can't choose their partner as next of kin, can't get any marriage benefits that heterosexuals can get from the government, and other things.

Yes, I am whinning not about gays, but about hearing about them in everything. There is more in life then Fags
And as it turns out, there is more in life than mad dog. Wow!

So kiss my A**
Thank you, no.

All I said is that I am sick of hearing poor gay this and poor gay that
And I am sick and tired of "I'm going out with so-in-so" and "I broke up with so-in-so", also sick and tired of heterosexuals talking about sex, and love, and complaining about their last boyfriend/girlfriend, complaining about how the next will be. It's in movies, it's in music, it's in books, it dominates everything, and it is fucking annoying. You tell gays to stop trying to get equal rights, I tell the rest of you morons to stop talking about sex. I think rights is worth more than somebody's broken heart.

So kiss my A**
Gladly, would you like me to kneel to kiss it?

OK, everybody back on topic.

What we have here maddog is a case of people getting more upset with "HOW" you say something than "WHAT" you are actually saying. These kids are being programmed in school and by society to think this way. As soon as the word fag was printed they immediately tuned you out and labled you. We are training lots of little P.C. commando's nowadays.

Borg I understand they want there rights, you know people go to court every day without putting it on TV or on every news and radio station. They just had a bill past in NY about selling video's of people without them knowing. There was a step father that had taped his daughter dressing (she was19 I believe)and undressing. Quess what it was legal they fought for quite a while to get the law changed. Now how much did we here about this in the news VERY LITTLE!!! This is my point queers are not the only thing out there. Oh by the way show me proof of where it is not a choice to have sex? Borg I never said that I am all there is, I quess the real basher just stood up..........

Blib once you leave school maybe you'll understand what I am talking about. I'm not referring to your little buddy's whinning about a date, I'm talking about what is in the news and on all the radio stations. Sorry but I don't see that much stuff about hetro's, when did we have our last straight sex march???? oh that's right.....NEVER...

Maybe the gays would get more respect if they didn't try to shove there life style down everyones throat(no pun intended). Maybe if they went about things a little different they might get respect. Putting shows like boy for boy on TV and showing two guys kissing and dirty dancing is not the way to win. Being gay is not natural and that is the way most humans view it, like it or not. When you are doing something that most people find perverted you don't put yourself infront of the camera like some kind of circus freak.

Now back to the bishop thing, most people are pi**ed because he stands for sinning. The bible says it is a sin to be gay. He also left his wife, and he also walked out on his family. This is the type of person that is going to lead, doesn't sound like a smart choice. I kind of have to agree with religious people for being mad, they are being told to act one way while they are seeing something different. It would be kind of like letting a KKK member run a black church.

So there, now Borg you can kiss blib arse :D

Originally posted by Dreamweaver
I watched a documentary once, which proved this same argument. It is not a choice, it is the way these people are made. Why would anyone make the choice to be pursecuted and shunned by many in society?

First there is no proof that a person is born gay in reality it is the other way around. Being gay is not natural. It takes man, woman to have a baby and keep the population alive, not man, man. Don't tell me about science I said natural birth. Also one does choose to have sex otherwise if we couldn't control our selfs we be like a bunch of horned up dogs. I ask you why do people do alot of things spiked hair, colored hair, body piercings all over the place, these people are shunned but they still decide to stick a 3inch piece of metal in there nose?

The Episcopals have quite the conundrum on their hands with this decision. As a Bishop, an individual is "supposed" to be the ethical, moral, & religious leader of a community of churches & faithful within a given area. Someone to look up to, someone to emulate. Now that supposedly pious leader is either a "top" or a "bottom".
This is more upsetting than when St Christopher was taken off the list of Saints by the Catholics.

Originally posted by HaVoK
What we have here maddog is a case of people getting more upset with "HOW" you say something than "WHAT" you are actually saying. These kids are being programmed in school and by society to think this way. As soon as the word fag was printed they immediately tuned you out and labled you. We are training lots of little P.C. commando's nowadays.

You have made a good point I don't know how many times I have said if someone wants to be gay fine do your thing, I have children and I really don't think it is right that they have to see a TV commercial with 2 guys dirty dancing and kissing(nasty). I do apologize if it sounded like bashing, but I am just getting sick of all this queerism garbage. Isn't it funny how a certain group can use a word but if another groups trys to use the same word they are labeled bashers. Take blacks they can call each other N all day now let a white person try it :eek:. Take queers they can call each other fag all day but as soon as I say it wham I'm the a**hole. To bad if the word is good enough for one group then it is good enough for both. :eek:

Originally posted by mad dog
First there is no proof that a person is born gay in reality it is the other way around. Being gay is not natural. It takes man, woman to have a baby and keep the population alive, not man, man. Don't tell me about science I said natural birth. Also one does choose to have sex otherwise if we couldn't control our selfs we be like a bunch of horned up dogs. I ask you why do people do alot of things spiked hair, colored hair, body piercings all over the place, these people are shunned but they still decide to stick a 3inch piece of metal in there nose?



That may be your opinion, but the documentary I watched showed there was proof that gay people are born, and not created after birth.

Why does it always come back to copulating for the whole intent and purpose of having children? Many 'normal' couples have sex for years and years, and never have a child. Are they defective as well? What about those who don't want children? Are they not upholding their duty to society?

This whole thing is ridiculous. Why are you so bothered about whether people are gay or not? The world is well and truly over populated now, in many countries (China has a one child per couple policy) . Maybe we should send all the gay people there?:rolleyes:

Dreamweaver I believe I saw the same show and if I recall they were saying is being gay genetic or is it learned. At the end it was still UNDECIDED.

All I am saying is that being gay goes against nature, I'm not talking about who gets a baby. I always said stupid people should not have kids, BUT that is a different topic.

Many normal couples may not be able to have a baby because of complications ONCE AGAIN different topic.

Those that don't want children have made a choice ONCE AGAIN different topic. BUT while we are talking about choice, do you not make the choice of who you have sex with?(unless your in prison, raped etc...)

LIKE I HAVE SAID(i'm printing sllooowww maybe you'll read it this time)I DON"T CARE WHO IS GAY!!!!!!!(did you get it that time?) What consenting ADULTS do in there bed is there business.

Population ONCE AGAIN well I hope you get the point.

Maybe if we did send all the gays to there own island they could have there own government, then maybe, JUST maybe they would be happy. One problem if all the gays formed a country they would die off. OH wait that was my point all along being gay is not a natural thing.................

I have children and I really don't think it is right that they have to see a TV commercial with 2 guys dirty dancing and kissing(nasty)
And it gets annoying watching TV with heterosexual people kissing all of the time. Haha, when was the last time I saw on TV two guys kissing for any reason other than a joke... let me think, nope, can't think of a single one. They fight for rights, not jump in front of a camera just to go "I'm gay, love me". It's not just to be famous, it's to try and get themselves a place in society other than disgusting scum.

Dreamweaver I believe I saw the same show and if I recall they were saying is being gay genetic or is it learned. At the end it was still UNDECIDED.
I saw an interesting comment on the pure biological possibility of somebody being gay. It would instill even worse homophobia. People will go "its a chemical imbalence, drugs will fix" like what they did with so-called depression. We could fix their "broken" genes. It is a biological choice. Hormones make you attracted to a certain sex, and then you choose weither or not to act on it. Just a thought on the dangers, see, I attempt to keep an open mind...

Maybe if we did send all the gays to there own island they could have there own government, then maybe, JUST maybe they would be happy. One problem if all the gays formed a country they would die off. OH wait that was my point all along being gay is not a natural thing.................
Maybe in an attempt to re-populate, the men and women will have a giant homosexual orgy? Oh, intoxicated.

Originally posted by mad dog
Those that don't want children have made a choice ONCE AGAIN different topic. BUT while we are talking about choice, do you not make the choice of who you have sex with?(unless your in prison, raped etc...)




Yes we make the choice of whom we have sex with, but we do not make the choice of whom or which sex we are attracted to.

Being gay is not a CHOICE. Have you known many gay people? Have you ever taken the time to sit down and discuss this issue with them? Well I have, and I can assure you, this is something which these people felt and knew about themselves at a very young age. At a time before sex was an issue to them.

I am trying to have an interesting debate with you, so please don't start being so condescending to me. We may have different opinions, but that doesn't mean I am SLOW or unable to understand what you are saying. It means I don't agree with you. I am happy to keep up the discussion, but if you are going to start with personal insults about my level of intelligence, then I am not prepared to continue it. I happen to be very well educated, and have no problem following what you are saying.

Looking forward to future debate.............

I really hate the "unnatural" argument

1) homosexuality IS found in nature. Among Dolphins, Bison, gazelles, antelope, and Walruses "bachelor groups" are a fairly common occurence. (you'ld never guess what the dolphins use they're blowhole for... :eek: )

2) What does nature have to do with morality? Animals don't wear clothes... is that immoral/moral? Animals don't get married before having sex... is this immoral/moral?

Before you bring up the "unnatural" argument, please learn the facts and think about what you are saying... Sorry, I don't mean to sound insulting but I hate this approach to this debate... and I also just quit smoking ;)

Originally posted by Blibblob
[b]I Haha, when was the last time I saw on TV two guys kissing for any reason other than a joke... let me think, nope, can't think of a single one. They fight for rights, not jump in front of a camera just to go "I'm gay, love me". It's not just to be famous, it's to try and get themselves a place in society other than disgusting scum.



Blib go to the If channel(independent flims) go to the Bravo channel etc... most gay commercial are not found on the cartoon network ;) So to answer your question yes there are gays that are out there making themselfs look like circus freaks.

Originally posted by Dreamweaver
Yes we make the choice of whom we have sex with, but we do not make the choice of whom or which sex we are attracted to.

Being gay is not a CHOICE. Have you known many gay people? Have you ever taken the time to sit down and discuss this issue with them? Well I have, and I can assure you, this is something which these people felt and knew about themselves at a very young age. At a time before sex was an issue to them.

I am trying to have an interesting debate with you, so please don't start being so condescending to me. We may have different opinions, but that doesn't mean I am SLOW or unable to understand what you are saying. It means I don't agree with you. I am happy to keep up the discussion, but if you are going to start with personal insults about my level of intelligence, then I am not prepared to continue it. I happen to be very well educated, and have no problem following what you are saying.

Looking forward to future debate.............

[1]Part one so I quess a person that is atracted to children is OK in your book?

[2] the bishop we are talking about wasn't gay until later he made the CHOICE to have a wife and child then he made the CHOICE to have a boy friend. Oh and yes I have met many gay people on both sides of the fence man/woman.

[3] please don't come off sounding innocent of not getting high blood presure YOU are one of the ones here that called me a BASHER. The reason I said I was typing slower is because you and some others here made it sound like I was going to kill all fags. When I keep repeating I don't want to see them hurt, I just am getting sick of them saying being gay is normal. I do relize you are intelligent and can relize we just have a diference of opinion. I just don't like being called violent when I am not. I am just trying to make a point that being gay is not natural, and is a perversion of human life.

Didnt you know Maddog? If you think homosexuality is a deviant/immoral behavoir, they have no other choice but to label you a violent gay hater. The gay crusaders cannot let anyone who disagrees with them to seem capable of intelligent non-violent thought.

Originally posted by aVaTaR
I really hate the "unnatural" argument

1) homosexuality IS found in nature. Among Dolphins, Bison, gazelles, antelope, and Walruses "bachelor groups" are a fairly common occurence. (you'ld never guess what the dolphins use they're blowhole for... :eek: )

2) What does nature have to do with morality? Animals don't wear clothes... is that immoral/moral? Animals don't get married before having sex... is this immoral/moral?

Before you bring up the "unnatural" argument, please learn the facts and think about what you are saying... Sorry, I don't mean to sound insulting but I hate this approach to this debate... and I also just quit smoking ;)

[1] Show me ONE person that has sat down and had a conversation with an animal, you can't, so therefore you can not tell me animals are gay. The reason a wolve or dog boinks another male dog is to show who is dominant, this may be the case in most or all animals.

[2] Well without nature you nor anyone else would exsist. Man and woman have baby's that is the way NATURE made it happen. NATURE did not make it man and man, or woman woman so it is a perversion of nature and is not natural. To the rest of your paragraph are we not better then animals, and at one time we did run around naked. Like I have said before maybe by the year 4 billion there won't be man/woman maybe there will just be heshe's(or shehe's want to be politclly correct)

I do now my facts and I do think about how and why I debate the way I do. Sometimes I might not explain as well as I should. The other reason I debate this way is because I like to give the reason for the way I think. Some people would just say the bible says it is a sin and that is all there is to it(I have no problem with that if that is how they debate) I like to give a reason why being gay is not natural in our world.

Good for you that you have quit smoking, stick with it I can bet that you will feel better( I did), plus it will be alot cheaper. :)

With all of that said; There is a small fish that is all female except one, his job is to keep is race alive. When he dies one of the females ends up becomming a male then life continues on. If fish can see the importance of why we are different sexes why can't humans? So even in the animal kingdom sex has a purpose, but for some reason in the human kingdom we are confused with why sex is what it is, and just getting our rocks off. You can't say that boy's can't love girls etc... that is lame. Most people love both there parents but they still know were things belong when they get older. My personal opinion about queerism is that they are afraid of the other sex. They communicate better with there own and won't dig up the power to find out about the opposite. This is just one of many theory's out there. I really don't believe they are born gay atleast not all of them. For example when is the last time you heard a 3 year old say they where gay? When is the last time you heard a 3 year old ask to be tied up and whipped? I never have but people still do it and yes without being abused. Not to mention abuse does play a big role in queerism alot of gay men are that way because of the way they were treated at a younger age. My point is there are thousands of reasons why people have the sex they do, but they are not born that way. except for the .000000000000000000000001%

Originally posted by HaVoK
Didnt you know Maddog? If you think homosexuality is a deviant/immoral behavoir, they have no other choice but to label you a violent gay hater. The gay crusaders cannot let anyone who disagrees with them to seem capable of intelligent non-violent thought.

Thank you Havok once again......... People can call our Prez. every name in the book, they can tell us they think the Pope is full of it, they can say Jay Leno(sp) is retarded. BUT as soon as I say I don't like queerism that means I'm going to kill them. I never once said I hate the people I just think there acts are perverted. The same as I would if I saw some lady chained to a wall with a ball in her mouth. This has been my point all along there are alot of things going on in society that need alot more attention the poor fag this and poor fag that( I threw that in there for you Blib and Borg, just because I know you like to see me print it :D) In all seriousness there are other issues that could be in the news.

"[1] Show me ONE person that has sat down and had a conversation with an animal, you can't, so therefore you can not tell me animals are gay. The reason a wolve or dog boinks another male dog is to show who is dominant, this may be the case in most or all animals."

Ummm animals can't talk ;) but there are people who study animal behavior. And these people have found that contrary to popular belief; some animals do have homosexual preferences and dont just use it to assert dominance. In the cases of the Dolphins and Walruses sometimes these groups will last for life even when an opportunity for male/female copulation arises. Or in other words; they prefer they're same sex partner over opposite sex. In my opinion, that sounds like true homosexuality to me.

"[2] Well without nature you nor anyone else would exsist. Man and woman have baby's that is the way NATURE made it happen. NATURE did not make it man and man, or woman woman so it is a perversion of nature and is not natural. To the rest of your paragraph are we not better then animals, and at one time we did run around naked. Like I have said before maybe by the year 4 billion there won't be man/woman maybe there will just be heshe's(or shehe's want to be politclly correct)"

I'm not sure where you are going with this, but I will try to explain my bit a little better... Ok, yes we did run around neked for a while. Then we smartened up when our jibblies started getting cold, and started to don clothing. Then somewhere along the line we decided it was immoral to run around neked. My point is; you can't use "natural" and "moral" as the same thing. Nature is not moral or immoral, it is ammoral. so saying something is "unnatural" is not necissarily saying it is wrong. ie. we were clothes = unnatural. Is that wrong of us?

Some more food for thought: Nature has always had a way of keeping a balance. Humanity is reaching a population rate that is on the edge of absurdity. What if this is nature's way of supressing the population? It's not an outrageous idea. Many cases of similar occerences have been documented.

Originally posted by mad dog
[1]Part one so I quess a person that is attracted to children is OK in your book?

[2] the bishop we are talking about wasn't gay until later he made the CHOICE to have a wife and child then he made the CHOICE to have a boy friend. Oh and yes I have met many gay people on both sides of the fence man/woman.

[3] please don't come off sounding innocent of not getting high blood presure YOU are one of the ones here that called me a BASHER. The reason I said I was typing slower is because you and some others here made it sound like I was going to kill all fags. When I keep repeating I don't want to see them hurt, I just am getting sick of them saying being gay is normal. I do relize you are intelligent and can relize we just have a diference of opinion. I just don't like being called violent when I am not. I am just trying to make a point that being gay is not natural, and is a perversion of human life.



Please show me a place where I called you violent, or a basher. I never said anything of the kind at any time, as far as I can remember. I respect your opinion, but I can't understand it.

I would never condone anyone preying on children, but I don't see where or how that comes into the gay discussion. Gay people are not automatically child abusers.

There are also many men who know they are gay, but still marry. They don't wish to go against thier families, or church, but it doesn't change the way they are. It is an irresponsible thing to do, because it hurts many others when they find out. That is why it is important to allow people to live the life they feel they need to. As long as it is done between consenting adults, I don't have a problem with it.

This is a topic we will have to agree to disagree on, because we could go around in circles for ever and a day and never agree.

Maybe we will agree on another topic at a later date.:)

I see where he was going with the "attracted to children" thing, and I think you may have misconstrued. He was saying; if it's ok for a man to love a man because people can't help who they are attracted to, what is the difference between that and pedofilia? They can't help that they are attracted to children... so it does kind of make it a flimsy argument. I personally would argue that this isn't natural, but before you bash me for going against my own argument, let me tell you that I'm not. I believe we should return to a more natural state of being. Where morals and naturality are one and the same. Of course there WOULD have to be limits, I know... I'm working that one out...

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Oh shut the hell up. You know nothing about gay people at all.

Why would they anyway, with so many idiots like you persecuting them?
.

Dreamweaver; Here is some of what borg posted, then you posted I agree. Sounds kind of like you are telling me I am a basher. I am not, I do believe the act is sick even though the people may be nice.

I'm sorry I did not make myself clear on the child issue; You said feel for gays because they can't help who they fall in love with and that makes the act OK. Then I ask what about people that go after children, what about people that go for animals? If that is how you argue the gay issue then the others must be OK also? I never ONCE said gay people are child molesters. I do agree this is a topic we will never agree on (no problem that is life and that is what makes everyone different).

aVaTaR; Thanks for your help about the child issue, that is what I ment. I realize animals can't talk and I also realize there are alot of people that study there behavior. There is NO PROOF that animals are gay, I'm not denying that don't jump on each other at times. All the study's I've seen about animals show that they are doing an act so they can belong or to show dominance. I would like to see where you found info on gay animals, NOT the act but an actual gay animal. I hang out with the guys alot also does this mean I'm gay "NO" usually the guys are doing sh** that I like to do, truck pull, hunting, golfing, or just shooting the sh** over a cold beer.

[2] I never said "moral" I relize moral and nature are different YOU are the one who used MORAL. I do understand what you are saying, but clothes don't change the fact of breeding, or how it happens. We invented clothes for a convenience just like the TV, car, indoor plumbing, etc..... Just because we watch TV or drive a car does not change the fact that it still takes opposite sex to make baby's. How do you know that nature is wrong or right, it may be wrong for humans but it may be right for the world, After all, Mother Nature has been around since the begaining. Mother nature is the one who made the rule boy+girl=baby. Humans are inventing other ways to make life, does this mean we are now nature?

To your last part you may be right "I don't know" that still does not make the act natural. AIDs, Cancer, Plague's are all other types of population control maybe we should help them along also?

Then I ask what about people that go after children, what about people that go for animals? If that is how you argue the gay issue then the others must be OK also?
The difference is two adults having sex is consensual, an adult and a child or an adult and an animal is not.

Borg Agreed, it is just that I have seen the argument used alot. Well we can't help who we love so who ever we love makes are love correct. Well believe it or not there are people that love animals and children, but they keep there actions to themselfs. I'm not saying 2 to 100 consenting adults shouldn't do what they want, but to use the love argument is kind of lame. Here is one for you; 2 adults in there 20s love each other (boy-girl) they really have the hots for each other, they try hard but can't keep there hands off each other, oh and they've known each other all there lives, what would you say to them.........? Now that I've got you thinking I'm nuts I forgot to tell you one little piece of info. they are brother and sister.... This in my book is also a pervertion but it does happen, should we stay out of there business and let them get married? after all they are consenting adults. If you say it is fine for consenting adults to do what ever they want(in the bed room) then what is good for one group of people has to be good for another.

It is fine to let consenting adults to do whatever they want in the bedroom. Let there be incestual marriages! Let there be polyamorous (more than 2 people) marriages! I don't know why the government has anything to do with it anyway; I think marriage should be privatized and individual churches, chapels, etc. can set their own rules. Then, everyone is happy.

Not the congregation of the church that has many restrictions...

Originally posted by aVaTaR
Not the congregation of the church that has many restrictions... Do you mean to say "a church" or are you lumping all denominations together?

Borg I agree the government should stay out of it, it still does not change the fact that some things are a perversion.

Avatar it looks like the churches are changing there stance on many issue's.

meant it as "a church"

and yes I've noticed that about the churches... too bad, too. The churches rely on tradition a great deal. I don't think they should change because of societal pressures, just keep their noses out of my business. I hope this is not the beginning of a downward spiral for them...