Chavez nationalizes utilities (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/01/08/chavez.media.ap/index.html), calls OAS chief an "idiot"

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Monday that he plans to nationalize the country's electrical and telecommunications companies, his boldest move yet to transform Venezuela into a socialist state.
"All of those sectors that in an area so important and strategic for all of us as is electricity -- all of that which was privatized, let it be nationalized," Chavez said in a televised speech after swearing in a new Cabinet.

"C.A. Nacional Telefonos de Venezuela (CANTV), let it be nationalized," Chavez said. "The nation should recover its property of strategic sectors."

American Depositary Receipts of CANTV immediately plunged 14.2 percent on the New York Stock Exchange to $16.84 before the exchange halted trading. The ADRs had been moderately higher before the announcement.
A NYSE spokesman wasn't immediately able to say whether trading in ADRs of other Venezuelan companies might be halted.

When Chavez was re-elected by a wide margin last month, he promised to take a more radical turn toward socialism. Monday's announcement appeared likely to affect Electricidad de Caracas, owned by AES Corp., and CANTV, which is the country's largest publicly traded company.

Chavez threatened last August to nationalize CANTV, a Caracas-based former state firm that was privatized in 1991, unless it adjusted its pension payments to current minimum-wage levels, which have been repeatedly increased by his government.

Also Monday, Chavez called the chief of the Organization of American States an "idiot" on Monday and urged him to resign.

Chavez lashed out at OAS Secretary-General Jose Miguel Insulza for questioning his government's decision not to renew the license of an opposition-aligned TV station.

"Dr. Insulza is quite an idiot, a true idiot," Chavez said in a speech after swearing in new Cabinet members. He used a vulgar Spanish term that translates roughly as idiot.

"The insipid Dr. Insulza should resign from the secretariat of the Organization of American States for daring to play that role."

"The insipid Dr. Insulza should resign from the secretariat of the Organization of American States for daring to play that role."
On Friday, Insulza warned that Chavez's decision not to renew the broadcast license of Radio Caracas Television, or RCTV, in May would be seen as a "form of censorship against the freedom of expression."
Chavez has said his government's decision is final on the TV station and that it will not renew the license of a channel that he says has been involved in subversive actions against his government.

the people of Venezuela elected him, they can deal with him...and a bankrupted power company.

when the lights go out, things will change.

That is what we need to do with our power.

Some industries are too critical to throw to the wolves of the Market.

Telecom... eh... there are too many other ways to communicate. We do need to do something to stop this trend of consoladation that is taking us back to the days of Ma Bell and sky high phone bills.

...and a bankrupted power company.

when the lights go out, things will change.

That is the beauty of nationalization... it means that industry is no longer at the mercy of the Market.

I'm not sure who's right about this one. I'll have to make my decision about nationalized utilities when we see the results of this.

geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez dharma, I almost choked to death on my water with your new sig ......frrrrrrrrrrrrrig, that is funny

geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez dharma, I almost choked to death on my water with your new sig ......frrrrrrrrrrrrrig, that is funny

Thanks! I have a couple more good ones that I will use later.

That is the beauty of nationalization... it means that industry is no longer at the mercy of the Market.

That can go both ways, of course. Depends on how healthy the market was.

That can go both ways, of course. Depends on how healthy the market was.

This is the kind of thing that happens in third world countries with an almost monotonous regularity. Some private company decides to invest in a third world country, after they all the investment in the building of whatever infrastructure needed to do something, oil rigs, electrical plants etc, the ruling thug decides to "nationalize" (read seize it for their own) whatever it was a private company decided to build in whatever banana republic it was built in.

The thing with this nationalizing scheme the thugs do from time to time is that they always fail. Always.

You want to talk about electricity? There was a night time satellite image of the Korean peninsula, you could tell which said was prospering and which wasn't by the amount of light you could see on the peninsula. The whole of South Korea is very, very brightly lit by PRIVATE electrical companies. North Korea had this one rather dim light right where Pyongyang is. THAT alone says something about using socialist schemes to provide services to the community, it never works.

It was the same thing with the old Soviet Union. You could tell which countries where under the grip of the Soviet Union by just how dark they were.

Have ANY of you guys wondered why it was only in the past 150 years or so that so many of our modern innovations happened? Have you ever wondered why so many of our innovations happened HERE? It's not an accident, dammit.

Private enterprise puts food on our table, even if the food is grown on the other side of the world, clothes on our backs, a roof over our heads, the phone system we depend on, the cars we drive, the computers we use and the infrastructure such as the 'net and the electrical grid. I don't know why people suddenly want to kill the goose that's been laying the golden eggs.

Well if we kill it then we can cut it open and take out the gold that must be stored in there!

Venezuela isnt a banana republic, its an oil one. Chavez, rightly or wrongly keeps pushing the US, to his cost someday I think.

Venezuela isnt a banana republic, its an oil one. Chavez, rightly or wrongly keeps pushing the US, to his cost someday I think.
everytime he makes an ass out of himself, the oil market soils itself, oil prices jump, and Venezuela makes more money. he doesn't have much incentive to be GW's fishing buddy.

geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez dharma, I almost choked to death on my water with your new sig ......frrrrrrrrrrrrrig, that is funnyPerhaps he shook the guy's other hand? The one he still has?

You want to talk about electricity? There was a night time satellite image of the Korean peninsula, you could tell which said was prospering and which wasn't by the amount of light you could see on the peninsula. The whole of South Korea is very, very brightly lit by PRIVATE electrical companies. North Korea had this one rather dim light right where Pyongyang is. THAT alone says something about using socialist schemes to provide services to the community, it never works.

I think North Korea is such an extreme example that it doesn't really apply. I seriously doubt Venezuela's going to go dark. They will, however, have a very difficult time getting any company to invest in their country again. Perhaps they don't care.

I agree Lionel, Venezuela won't go dark anytime soon. But what WILL happen is the standard of living amongst the average non politically connected Venezuelans will be significantly lowered, dammit. It happens almost every single time, dammit.

Chavez, rightly or wrongly keeps pushing the US.......

Yes, I think he may indeed be trying to *push* the US.

He seems to be trying to push it into acting like a progressive, benevolent democracy.

A task which, sadly, he stands almost no chance of accomplishing.

Yes, I think he may indeed be trying to *push* the US.

He seems to be trying to push it into acting like a progressive, benevolent democracy.
"Democracy"??? Are you kidding? Yeah, his move to "nationalize" (read; steal) private industry's investment in Venezuela will undoubtedly ruin any chance they ever had of becoming a viable power-player in the future. He's plundering their resources; IOW, he's plumb fucked his own people right in the ass, but hey - they'll get cheap power. For a while, that is.

The only thing he'll "push" the US to do is put him on the endangered species list.

He's plundering their resources

Is he keeping them for himself?
I disagree with your characterization of nationalization as "plunder" or "stealing", since those resources are being taken from foreign hands and given back to the people of Venezuela.


he's plumb fucked his own people right in the ass, but hey - they'll get cheap power. For a while, that is.

Why do you think that? What do you think will happen to their power?

Perhaps he shook the guy's other hand? The one he still has?
aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh, come on Jester, it was still funny as hell. Brightened my day anyway. :D

Chavez is planning to not only nationalize the power industries but also the communications industries. This is a bald faced attempt to silence any opposition. Typical of demigogues of both the left and right.

Is he keeping them for himself?
I disagree with your characterization of nationalization as "plunder" or "stealing", since those resources are being taken from foreign hands and given back to the people of Venezuela.
The "people" of Venezuela need to be cared for in the long term, and historically speaking, when you nationalize industry, you're doing anything but.
Why do you think that? What do you think will happen to their power?
He's giving away their oil, and the supply is finite. It's not just about offering free electricity and comforting the poor, disenfranchised native "Americans" abroad (to which he gives free oil, as well) - it should be used to BOLSTER their economy, not to artificially inflate it's worth. Face it, outside of that ONE commodity (and various fruit and vegetable crops), the "people" of Venezuela have shit. The man they elected is giving away their only real asset, and the people there think he's a visionary. Well, give 'em 30 years, and let's see what happens.

"Democracy"??? Are you kidding?

When it comes to having it in the US, it often does seem like a joke.

Yeah, his move to "nationalize" (read; steal) private industry's investment in Venezuela will undoubtedly ruin any chance they ever had of becoming a viable power-player in the future.

I was not talking about what effect Chavez's actions might or might not have have on his country, but on the US.

He's plundering their resources;

It seems to me the opposite; that he is giving the resources that the People own back to the People.

IOW, he's plumb fucked his own people right in the ass, ......

Nooooo, to **plumb fuck one's own people right in the ass** would be to do something along the lines of allowing a "new Pearl Harbor" type of attack to occur so as to be able to coerce a suitably frightened and cowed populace into accepting a disastrous foreign war.


The only thing he'll "push" the US to do is put him on the endangered species list.

If you're saying the the humiliation the Washinton crowd is suffering at his hands is so great that they will at some point move to assassinate him, I will agree with you.

He is driving the huge, fascist, red-white-n-blue nation to the north of him insane with his liberal policies. For the ConservaFascists, he is far too progressive and rational and caring about his own People; if there's one thing the far Right U.S. political cabal truly despises, it is to see politicians in other countries doing things for the benefit of the People. Gives the peons too many "ideas".

__________________________________________________ _____

American Capitalism is a malignancy that permeates our economic, social, and political systems and institutions. This untreated cancer ravaging the body of civilization is spreading like an unchecked conflagration in a munitions factory. Feudalism didn’t die; it simply evolved. Corporatism, consumerism, wage slavery, debt slavery, free trade agreements, deregulation, and privatization condemn most of the global population to varying degrees of slavery, serfdom or indentured servitude.

When it comes to having it in the US, it often does seem like a joke.
Why - because the way you think isn't taken seriously by mainstream America?
I was not talking about what effect Chavez's actions might or might not have have on his country, but on the US.
His actions will have virtually no effect on us in the long run. His countrymen are fucked, but I could care less - they deserve it.
It seems to me the opposite; that he is giving the resources that the People own back to the People.
In the immediate sense, you're absolutely right, he is. He's also giving away a super valuable (not to mention, irreplaceable) commodity. Venezuela's infrastructure is in shambles, and on top of limiting his country's revenue (read; he's almost completely halted the growth of their industry), he's also PERSONALLY guaranteed that NO ONE will invest there.

Yeah, he's a real man of the people, for sure.
Nooooo, to **plumb fuck one's own people right in the ass** would be to do something along the lines of allowing a "new Pearl Harbor" type of attack to occur so as to be able to coerce a suitably frightened and cowed populace into accepting a disastrous foreign war.
Blah, blah, blah....says the broken record....
If you're saying the the humiliation the Washinton crowd is suffering at his hands is so great that they will at some point move to assassinate him, I will agree with you.
I didn't mean it in that sense. I meant Chavez's tenure will be short lived, and along with it - any bargaining chip Venezuela ever had.

The "people" of Venezuela need to be cared for in the long term, and historically speaking, when you nationalize industry, you're doing anything but.

He's giving away their oil, and the supply is finite. It's not just about offering free electricity and comforting the poor, disenfranchised native "Americans" abroad (to which he gives free oil, as well) - it should be used to BOLSTER their economy, not to artificially inflate it's worth. Face it, outside of that ONE commodity (and various fruit and vegetable crops), the "people" of Venezuela have shit. The man they elected is giving away their only real asset, and the people there think he's a visionary. Well, give 'em 30 years, and let's see what happens.

Hmmmm...I like these points Prae!

Thank you, Sal. :)

Chavez just shot himself in the foot. Who is going to even dare to invest in Venezuela with the chance that their industry would be nationalized. I sure as hell wouldn't.

Exactly. No one will.

The "people" of Venezuela need to be cared for in the long term, and historically speaking, when you nationalize industry, you're doing anything but.

So I assume you think it was a mistake for us to nationalize our police and fire protection service industries.

Would you rather go back to the old days of subscription police and fire protection?

He's giving away their oil, and the supply is finite.

No, that is what happens when you privatize an industry. You take resources away from the people and give it to private individuals.


It's not just about offering free electricity and comforting the poor, disenfranchised native "Americans" abroad (to which he gives free oil, as well)

Actually he gives it to poor Americans here in America (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/comments/display?contentID=AR2006112001341) too.

Which, by the way, is more than any other oil company has done.



- it should be used to BOLSTER their economy, not to artificially inflate it's worth.

It is used to bolster their economy. It is used to inflate the incomes of Velezuelans and to provide them with less expensive resources.

The only complaint about what they are doing is that they are taking resources away from private, often foreign individuals, and giving it back to the people.


Face it, outside of that ONE commodity (and various fruit and vegetable crops), the "people" of Venezuela have shit.

Which is why they had better use it to their advantage, instead of letting Exxon take it and the profits from it out of the Velezuelan economy.



The man they elected is giving away their only real asset, and the people there think he's a visionary. Well, give 'em 30 years, and let's see what happens.

Yes, we certainly will.

So I assume you think it was a mistake for us to nationalize our police and fire protection service industries.
In a lot of ways, it was. Do you have any idea how much waste there is when certain assholes are given the ability to vote on their own salary increases? My dad serves on the board of the Darien-Woodridge fire protection district as a trustee (an elected official), so believe me when I say the system is abysmal.

That aside, you're arguing apples and oranges. Nationalizing the service sector of your economy isn't akin to nationalizing your industry. Your argument is specious, period.
Would you rather go back to the old days of subscription police and fire protection?
Not that I suggested it, but why not? It might be interesting to see what that does to property taxes and pork money at the local level.
No, that is what happens when you privatize an industry. You take resources away from the people and give it to private individuals.
Follow the money. With increased capital comes the increased ability to GROW your country (let alone, open the opportunity for foreign investment (read; technology and money, IOW create an annuity for the state), which apparently is anathema to Chavez, but whatever - no one said Latins were shrewd businessmen). Only one thing’s for certain: he's not building or developing anything with the peanuts he collecting from his countrymen. This, my friend, is an immutable fact.
Actually he gives it to poor Americans here in America (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/comments/display?contentID=AR2006112001341) too.

Which, by the way, is more than any other oil company has done.
Bravo, Chavez. Keep it up, buddy.
It is used to bolster their economy. It is used to inflate the incomes of Velezuelans and to provide them with less expensive resources.
At the expense of bringing money INTO their economy, which just so happens to be the most critical element of GROWING any country.
The only complaint about what they are doing is that they are taking resources away from private, often foreign individuals, and giving it back to the people.
You truly don't understand economics, do you?
Which is why they had better use it to their advantage, instead of letting Exxon take it and the profits from it out of the Velezuelan economy.
How are they "profiting"? Really. Tell me, because I'm all ears....

No, my friend - they're biding their time, period - and that's all they're doing....
Yes, we certainly will.
Don't wager any money.

You keep making it sound as if money won't be coming into their economy anymore.

That is just plain, flat out wrong.

They are still selling to foreign countries, but now instead of those profits going to foreign corporations, they are staying right there in Venezuela.

Do you see all the Citgos closing down? I don't.

IOW, the net effect is that there is more money coming into their economy then there was before.

You keep making it sound as if money won't be coming into their economy anymore.

That is just plain, flat out wrong.

They are still selling to foreign countries, but now instead of those profits going to foreign corporations, they are staying right there in Venezuela.

BINGO!

Of course, the entire idea of the People of a country (who ostensibly own the natural resources of that country) receiving some benefit from the profits derived from those natural resources is anathema to all good little Corporatists (iow, fascists).

I hope that the Venezuelan people appreciate what a good man and good leader they have in Hugo Chavez, (like the title says, he IS a real prince of a man) and I hope he is allowed 30 years (that was previoulsy mentioned) to bring the benefits of socialism to his poor, impoverished people.

Fuck the Corporatistas. Power to the People.

__________________________________________________ _

"We are facing the threat of global challenges stemming from the genocidal, immoral, sick, and corrupt elite currently governing the United States, which appears to have no limits. For the horror it has created around the world in the last century, the United States’ war machine should be dismantled. It is a threat against all of mankind, particularly against our children." ---------Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez

He seems to be trying to push it into acting like a progressive, benevolent democracy.

Odd, since he seems to be headed in the opposite direction at home, what with working to make sure he can issue new laws by decree and shutting down opposition media. But he hates Bush, which is what's really important.

The Economist (http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8522131)



Seemingly unable to restrain his enthusiasm, the president sketched this era's outline in surprise announcements in the days before the formal inauguration of the new term on January 10th. He said that he planned to nationalise the telecommunications and electricity industries. He rang a television show to say that he was replacing the vice-president, José Vicente Rangel, who was one of the few remaining figures in the government with his own political clout. Earlier, Mr Chávez had announced that the government would not renew the broadcasting licence of RCTV, the largest opposition-run television channel, meaning it will be off the air by June.

. . .

Mr Chávez also said that he would ask the assembly to approve an enabling law empowering him to introduce a raft of socialist measures by decree. These, he said, would be much more radical than a similar package in 2001, which sparked a three-year opposition campaign to unseat the president that included a failed coup attempt and a two-month general strike.

Odd, since he seems to be headed in the opposite direction at home, what with working to make sure he can issue new laws by decree and shutting down opposition media.

The article you posted said that he wanted the power to pass **socialist measures** by decree. No doubt he feels it necessary for the well-being of the nation and its people.

If the article had said he was calling --as a certain leader in America has done-- for the power to unilaterally declare war on foreign nations without the approval of other elements of national political leadership, THAT would be something to cause true trepidation and fear.

I do disagree with his shutting down opposition media.........unless they are a pack of professional liars and ReichWing propagandists like Limbaugh/Hannity/Coulter/Savage.

In which case his best course of action might be to simply have them deported.

(although with Ann Coulter, as it is with mad dogs, perhaps a swift execution would be the more prudent course. I feel like vomiting every time I remember she is (purportedly) of the same species as me)

But he hates Bush, which is what's really important.


I don't know if it's *important* but any sane individual who recognizes the Village Idiot from Crawford for what he is and what he is doing who does not despise and fear him fails --IMO-- to grasp the situation.

Black/white, Black/white, again FT (btw... your posting "title" has got to be the most hilarious one ever recorded in this forum. You are about as much a "free thinker: as I am a concert violinist.... lol). You do not agree with some of the "right wing" talking heads, therefore they should be killed off? Gimme a break!

The article you posted said that he wanted the power to pass **socialist measures** by decree. No doubt he feels it necessary for the well-being of the nation and its people.

And you're ok with this?


I do disagree with his shutting down opposition media.........unless they are a pack of professional liars and ReichWing propagandists like Limbaugh/Hannity/Coulter/Savage.

The first move of a dictator. Silence the opposition press.


In which case his best course of action might be to simply have them deported.

I guess a free press isn't desireable in a Socialist paradise.


(although with Ann Coulter, as it is with mad dogs, perhaps a swift execution would be the more prudent course. I feel like vomiting every time I remember she is (purportedly) of the same species as me)

So she calls for the execution of Arabs and you want to vomit...no wait, you'd just do what she does and say it's ok because she's a "reichwinger".


I don't know if it's *important* but any sane individual who recognizes the Village Idiot from Crawford for what he is and what he is doing who does not despise and fear him fails --IMO-- to grasp the situation.

Yet someone even more blatantly authoritarian is fine...go figure.

And you're ok with this?

In light of his statements about people who "consistently vote against their own best interests" perhaps he's of the opinion that people shouldn't really have a say in their own government.

Yeah, yeah, I know, the corporations run the U.S. and we don't have a say in our own government.

The article you posted said that he wanted the power to pass **socialist measures** by decree. No doubt he feels it necessary for the well-being of the nation and its people.

If the article had said he was calling --as a certain leader in America has done-- for the power to unilaterally declare war on foreign nations without the approval of other elements of national political leadership, THAT would be something to cause true trepidation and fear.

I do disagree with his shutting down opposition media.........unless they are a pack of professional liars and ReichWing propagandists like Limbaugh/Hannity/Coulter/Savage.

In which case his best course of action might be to simply have them deported.

(although with Ann Coulter, as it is with mad dogs, perhaps a swift execution would be the more prudent course. I feel like vomiting every time I remember she is (purportedly) of the same species as me)
The next time someone categorizes FT as a liberal, I will refer them to this post. You, Freethinker, are no liberal.

One could also accuse you of hypocrisy since you're now defending some of the very things you criticize. But I'll just say that your views on this matter are utterly despicable.

In light of his statements about people who "consistently vote against their own best interests" perhaps he's of the opinion that people shouldn't really have a say in their own government.
Soon Venezuela will be called Chavez Inc., and will take over Guyana and Suriname. Those bastards.

You keep making it sound as if money won't be coming into their economy anymore.
It's not about them creating a situation where by Venezuela will have no cash flow in the future; they'll take foreign money because they'd cease to function as a country if they didn't. **However** (and this is my point), they're limiting (err, negating) their opportunity to grow by halting foreign investment, period. You show me one prosperous country that operates like Chavez's, and we'll talk.
They are still selling to foreign countries, but now instead of those profits going to foreign corporations, they are staying right there in Venezuela.

Do you see all the Citgos closing down? I don't.
Said "profits" never truly (in their entirety) went to foreign companies (however, who do you think left them the blueprint for refining crude in the first place?). That aside, Citgo is a state run company; they WON'T shut down, and that's just the point. They can't subsist without developing newer and better technologies; hence, they're biding their time - economically speaking, that is....
IOW, the net effect is that there is more money coming into their economy then there was before.
You're truly clueless. If you think die-hard communism (read; no private industry, i.e. telecom, oil, media, etc.) builds economically viable countries, then you're a moron, and this conversation is pointless.

BINGO!
Bingo, my ass, commie.

I find it enlightening that Freethinker is of the opinion that the people of Venezuela are so mentally challenged that they do not know what is best for them and must rely on Hugo chavez to do their thinking for them and pass laws by fiat.

Jester has nailed it. Freethinker is not a liberal. He is simply someone who hates the United States in general and George Bush in particular so much that he approves of any actions taken by a fellow America/Bush hater.

The first move of a dictator. Silence the opposition press.

I said he might want to silence them IF they were professional liars who were spreading misleading rightwing propaganda.

I find it odd that so many of the things Chavez is doing (i.e., asking for power to pass laws on his own authority, silencing the opposition press) fall under such criticism from people here, but GWBush and his RightWing cohorts are doing things very similar in this country, and conservative people think it's just hunky dorry.


So she(Coulter) calls for the execution of Arabs and you want to vomit...no wait, you'd just do what she does and say it's ok because she's a "reichwinger".

The comment about executing Ann Coulter was said tongue-in-cheek. A bit of political theatre. I am not seriously advocating that talking heads, even if they are the absolute scum of the fucking earth, like Coulter, be executed. I do support the DP in the U.S., but only in cases of capital murder.

Maybe people here are so intimately aquainted with Venezuelan politics that they have recourse to chastize and criticize Chavez's actions as being extrajudicial or against that country's constitution......I am not that well versed in what is and is not legal for the president to do in Venezuela.....but i DO know that Bush has carried out actions right here in this country that are in direct contravention to the US Constitution, and the rightwing drones not only did not complain, they defended the asshole.

I find it enlightening that Freethinker is of the opinion that the people of Venezuela are so mentally challenged that they do not know what is best for them and must rely on Hugo chavez to do their thinking for them and pass laws by fiat.

Yes,...........I believe it very likely that the people of Venezuela --collectively-- are nearly as gullible and as ignorant as the populace in this country.

I would, however, not be at all surprised if they were found to be far more trusting of a leader (Chavez) who has since being elected enacted many policies that are most certainly aimed at benefitting the people of Venezuela......IOW, directing public policy in a manner pretty much the diametric opposite of the way the Corporatist/Fascist leaders here in the US do.

I find it odd that so many of the things Chavez is doing (i.e., asking for power to pass laws on his own authority, silencing the opposition press) fall under such criticism from people here, but GWBush and his RightWing cohorts are doing things very similar in this country, and conservative people think it's just hunky dorry.
Whatever you claim George Bush is doing to the media of this country, it is not making media outlets state property.
I do disagree with his shutting down opposition media.........unless they are a pack of professional liars and ReichWing propagandists like Limbaugh/Hannity/Coulter/Savage.
The fact that you support the latter statement overrides the former. If you disagree with his shutting down the opposition media, then there are no exceptions based on political allegiance or show format.

It's also nice to know that you don't support freedom of speech.

**However** (and this is my point), they're limiting (err, negating) their opportunity to grow by halting foreign investment, period.

"Foreign investment" will likely continue, especially in the form of sales. Nobody, not even the U.S., has stopped buying from them.


You're truly clueless.

You live in a glass house.


If you think die-hard communism (read; no private industry, i.e. telecom, oil, media, etc.) builds economically viable countries, then you're a moron, and this conversation is pointless.

1. Venezuela's economny is not one of "die hard communism". They only nationalized the Power and Telecom industries.

2. I never said I supported "die hard communism".

3. Since you do (incorrectly) think I did say those things then you are right, this conversation is pointless.

Whatever you claim George Bush is doing to the media of this country, it is not making media outlets state property.

In reality, that pretty much describes the what we have devolved into with the mainstream sources of "news" in this country.

Today in the US, the major media are nothing short of a national thought-control police. They're owned or controlled by dominant large Corporations (the kind Noam Chomsky calls "private tyrannies") grown increasingly concentrated over time and having a stranglehold over the kinds of information reaching the public. It has given them and the interests they represent the power to destroy the free marketplace of ideas essential to a healthy democracy now on life support in large measure because of how effective they are. -----http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/01/07/18344724.php



The fact that you support the latter statement overrides the former. If you disagree with his shutting down the opposition media, then there are no exceptions based on political allegiance or show format.

IMO there is one instance in which exception needs to be made.

The Fourth Estate is supposed to serve the purpose of informing the People, not continually feeding them blatant falsehoods and disinformation.

I do not think any country should abide, for instance, a national educational system wherein the students are on a daily basis given --by the people who should be teaching them and imparting knowledge to them-- completely FALSE and misleading information. The same holds true for the Media.

[i]Today in the US, the major media are nothing short of a national thought-control police. They're owned or controlled by dominant large Corporations (the kind Noam Chomsky calls "private tyrannies") grown increasingly concentrated over time and having a stranglehold over the kinds of information reaching the public.
If you or Mr. Chomsky have a better way to organize and run a huge business like CNN, let's hear your ideas.
I do not think any country should abide, for instance, a national educational system wherein the students are on a daily basis given --by the people who should be teaching them and imparting knowledge to them-- completely FALSE and misleading information. The same holds true for the Media.
The public school is just that, a public institution. News outlets are private, and the examples you list as being "Reichwingers/liars" happen to be pundits that give their opinions on the news. Their function is entertainment and indoctrination, not exactly a public service as noble as public education.

"Foreign investment" will likely continue, especially in the form of sales. Nobody, not even the U.S., has stopped buying from them.
Conversation over.

I hate to state the obvious, but buying a commodity isn't "investing" in their country.

Either you're a complete fool, or you're being intentionally obtuse, Dharma. Either way, I've neither the patience nor inclination to continue palavering over simple concepts.

Oh, and my point about nationalizing big industry (read; communism - no matter how big in scope NATIONALIZING big industry is) wasn't meant to imply that Venezuela has turned into a communist nation (at least, not in the strictest sense, it hasn’t). Try reading between the lines once in a while. Other than that, I'm done with you.