Stanford-Bennett
Stanford-Binet.

Aww, Nappy, did someone get up on the wrong side of the bed?
I just had TWO bowls of crawfish etouffee, so I'm on cloud nine!

Stanford-Binet.

Oops... didn't say that I scored 130 ;)

Oops... didn't say that I scored 130
Actually, inability to spell is very common among those classified as gifted. :D

Alcohol is wonderful stuff and you should be very proud for being a complete lush at such a young, tender age. Good for you! Your parents must be very proud.


And to that, I'll have another drink~

:drinktoth

"You can do ANYTHING you want to do"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Napsterbater
This line of thought is really a load of crap. I wish parents would stop handing this bullshit to their kids. It leads to all manner of irresponsible behavior.

Agreed!

Well, not really much to misunderstand about that exchange was there?

I apologize for running off on a tangent regarding DF's potential -- just hard for me to sit back and watch people tell a 16-yr old girl stuff like setting goals is a waste of time.

Of course, at the time I didn't realize she already has her heart set on being some man's housekeeper and nanny for the rest of her life. Guess what I shoulda said was "Dream on, silly girl. You've got a better chance of winning on American Idol!"

You're right... there are times when the harsh world of reality does indeed come into play when it comes to advising young people.

:)
SMW

You really shouldn't be talking, being a stupid ho and all.

Bless your heart... not used to having lowly women stand up to you are ya, dear? Pity with all those brains, you had to resort to name-calling. Why don't you stop by my place and tell me what you had for breakfast?? You know... engage in some REALITY yourself for a change?

;)
SMW

America is a perfect place to achieve your dreams. They, however, must be realistic. What is great about America is that more things are realistic here than anywhere else.

Paul, you poor thing. How long have you been living in a country without reality?

(Sidenote to Nappy... what you probably meant to say was "... more things are POSSIBLE here than anywhere else." eh?)

:)
SMW (aka stupid ho)

No, SMW, I meant realistic. Anything is possible. Quantum physics has seen to that.

Bless your heart... not used to having lowly women stand up to you are ya, dear? Pity with all those brains, you had to resort to name-calling. Why don't you stop by my place and tell me what you had for breakfast?? You know... engage in some REALITY yourself for a change?


SMW
Hmpf. *scampers away*

Ireland is the land of yarns and fairys, dont ya know.

I apologize for running off on a tangent regarding DF's potential -- just hard for me to sit back and watch people tell a 16-yr old girl stuff like setting goals is a waste of time.
It is a waste of time. I think you're under the illusion that a young person is capable of following a long-term plan. Our brains just aren't wired that way, you know. Long term plans fade far into the distance the first time a nice piece of ass comes stalking by. Evolution created young people to fuck and have children. They created old people to follow plans and make the world a better place. I would love to be able to follow a long-term plan. As many of them I've dreamed up, it would be great if they weren't just figments of my imagination.

Eventually I had to say, fuck it, I have to live for today, if I want to keep my sanity. Other kids might be able to buckle down and get shit done. Not me, and I suspect the vast majority of kids are exactly the same way. Only as I mature I am able to stick to shit I wasn't able to before. It's useless to tell a child what he can and cannot do. That child cannot understand it, and wouldn't be able to apply the information anyway, and if he/she could, they already would be doing it. Nobody would need to tell them.

So the adults of the world need to just shut their damn mouths, cause they ain't helping.

I'm sure you're right about YOU, Nappy... and probably about DF and alot of other young people. But fortunately, you can't speak for ALL. As we speak, colleges and universities around the world are FULL of young people focused enough to work toward a better future. And some, like my niece who graduated from UT with a degree in electrical engineering a couple of years ago, can now write their own ticket when it comes to employers... esp since female engineers are much sought after.

Nope, just because YOU couldn't stick to a plan long enough to secure your own future, don't generalize about your whole generation.

Nobody said it was EASY, but possible? It most certainly is.

And just as a reminder, I was your age once, so there's a good possibility I know more about being your age than you know about being mine.

So maybe YOU'RE the one who needs to keep his damn mouth shut, huh?

I apologize for running off on a tangent regarding DF's potential -- just hard for me to sit back and watch people tell a 16-yr old girl stuff like setting goals is a waste of time.

Of course, at the time I didn't realize she already has her heart set on being some man's housekeeper and nanny for the rest of her life. Guess what I shoulda said was "Dream on, silly girl. You've got a better chance of winning on American Idol!"
SMW

I seriously resent that. I thought the point of feminism was to allow women to choose what they wanted to do. If a girl wants to be single and independent and work and own her own home, well that's great! That's what our mothers and grandmothers worked for- a choice. I grew up with two, and then three, working parents, and let me tell you, I am 100% sure that my childhood would have been a lot better if someone was around all the time. I am planning on working until I have kids, it's just not going to be some great big career with long term plans, because I want to be there for my kids and not have them feel neglected, like I did when I sat at school until 7 pm every day, long after most of the other after-school program kids were gone.

So, if you don't agree with my choice for my life SMW, I'm SOOO sorry that I'm not subscribing to the idea that if a woman decides not to work, she must be old-fashioned and stupid, and an anti-feminist!

As we speak, colleges and universities around the world are FULL of young people focused enough to work toward a better future.

AHAHAHHAHAHA! That's the biggest load of garbage I ever heard. People go to college, not to plan for their future, but to do a number of things.

First, get a little piece of paper telling the world that they're smart. They don't actually have to be smart, they don't have to be anything. But the little piece of paper is proof.

Second, to waste time while they figure out what they really want to do. Very, very few people go into college knowing what they want their career field to be in, and most of the ones that do, end up changing their minds. Like I said, first piece of ass that walks by... the priorities set during high school go completely out the window.

like my niece who graduated from UT with a degree in electrical engineering a couple of years ago, can now write their own ticket when it comes to employers...

Whoop-dee-doo, you're niece is a freak. Freaks often easily find their niche. Relatively smart people who don't have much going for them other than options, get it the worst, because they can never choose between an endless supply of awesome career fields to be in. So they either choose the hot ticket everyone's talking about, end up hating it because they never did any soul searching, or get caught up chasing a degree and never make that choice at all.

Nobody said it was EASY, but possible? It most certainly is.

You're a fucking moron. No one ever said it wasn't possible. Quit twisting my "realistic," into "impossible." Of course it's possible. But can everybody be a fucking electrical engineer?

And just as a reminder, I was your age once, so there's a good possibility I know more about being your age than you know about being mine.

Bullshit. Just because you were my age once, doesn't mean you ever learned anything while you were. And just because I'm not your age, doesn't mean I haven't learned anything about being older. You're speaking the standard refrain when confronted by arrogant truth. Read the second line of my sig again and see if you can't glean a little truth yourself from it, you retarded monkey.

I think drinking is fine if the drinker doesn't get into a state where they might cause harm to themselves or others due to loss of control or black out. If you drink everyday but never gets into a drunken brawl at a bar or get behind the wheels, I am not sure it can even be called alcoholism...unless you drink so much that you are getting health problems.

On the other hand, if you are the kind of person who never drinks except when on special occasions, and you get completely out of control when you do, then you are more dangerous than the regular drinker.

I learned this in DUI class.

Evolution created young people to fuck and have children. They created old people to follow plans and make the world a better place.
Evolution did no such fucking thing, culture did that. Evolution is still blinking and wondering what happened, why these things that it created are no longer dying by 30 and perhaps by chance figuring out that we no longer need to spit out children by the age of 10. The only thing you could say that evolution did was it gave us a brain and set of genitals and said "You figure it out Smartypants". Humans aren't the way we are because of evolution, but because of culture and what we're taught at a young age. Humans as we see them today have only been like this since... today. Not enough time for evolution to have any say in the matter whatsoever. To evolution we still grunt, live in caves and die by 30 so that's why we can but don't carry on the family line before getting out of elementary school.

To evolution we still grunt, live in caves and die by 30 so that's why we can but don't carry on the family line before getting out of elementary school.

What a load of crap. Evolution might not have caught up to us as twenty first century technology using beings, but we were evolved to have very complex societies. How else can you explain the rise of language? Other animals have complex societies and languages too, you know. And humans have almost never lived in caves for the duration of their time on earth. Sure, when a cave presents itself, a primitive human will use it, but there are far too few caves for it to have become a part of our evolutionary history.

Even in times where the average life expectancy was thirty, we could still reproduce at fifteen, leaving a good ten years to advance the well being of our respective tribes.

The only thing you could say that evolution did was it gave us a brain and set of genitals and said "You figure it out Smartypants".

This is another load of crap. Humans have the same mating dance that any other mammal has. We follow the same patterns, and choose our mates in the same way. The traits humans use to select mates are just different. As humans are social creatures, we choose for social status, just like other primates. I think the "You figure it out Smarty-pants," line of thought was created by scientists who otherwise couldn't get laid due to a lack of said social status.

I seriously resent that. I thought the point of feminism was to allow women to choose what they wanted to do. If a girl wants to be single and independent and work and own her own home, well that's great! That's what our mothers and grandmothers worked for- a choice. I grew up with two, and then three, working parents, and let me tell you, I am 100% sure that my childhood would have been a lot better if someone was around all the time. I am planning on working until I have kids, it's just not going to be some great big career with long term plans, because I want to be there for my kids and not have them feel neglected, like I did when I sat at school until 7 pm every day, long after most of the other after-school program kids were gone.

So, if you don't agree with my choice for my life SMW, I'm SOOO sorry that I'm not subscribing to the idea that if a woman decides not to work, she must be old-fashioned and stupid, and an anti-feminist!

I burned my bra for equal rights back in the day so girls like you could BE stay-at-home moms without feeling guilty.

Quite different from being 16 years old and DREAMING of being a stay-at-home mom for a career plan.

Newsflash! Most men today accept and expect equal rights. Extremely rare to find stay-at-home moms who aren't on welfare or married to very wealthy men. Second problem with your 'dream' -- finding a wealthy man who'll want to marry you without you having more to offer him than a used-up body and drugged out mind.

Sorry to be so blunt, but hey -- it's YOUR choice, not mine.

Second problem with your 'dream' -- finding a wealthy man who'll want to marry you without you having more to offer him than a used-up body and drugged out mind.

Hahahaha! This is amusing. I would marry DF in a second. Too bad she's already snapped up.

What's really amusing about this is the warped understanding SMW seems to have about what men want. Could be why she's so old and not married yet! LOL

Okay, first of all, I don't "dream" of being a stay-at-home mom, but I know I want kids, and that will be best for them.

Second, I already found my guy, and although I don't think he's going to end up extremely wealthy, he'll do well enough to support our family, and if he doesn't, well I'll get a job! That's what I'm going to college for.

Hahahaha! This is amusing. I would marry DF in a second. Too bad she's already snapped up.

Aww, thanks Nappy. Not that I'd want to marry you, considering the way you talk about women sometimes!

AHAHAHHAHAHA! That's the biggest load of garbage I ever heard. People go to college, not to plan for their future, but to do a number of things.

First, get a little piece of paper telling the world that they're smart. They don't actually have to be smart, they don't have to be anything. But the little piece of paper is proof.

Second, to waste time while they figure out what they really want to do. Very, very few people go into college knowing what they want their career field to be in, and most of the ones that do, end up changing their minds. Like I said, first piece of ass that walks by... the priorities set during high school go completely out the window.



Whoop-dee-doo, you're niece is a freak. Freaks often easily find their niche. Relatively smart people who don't have much going for them other than options, get it the worst, because they can never choose between an endless supply of awesome career fields to be in. So they either choose the hot ticket everyone's talking about, end up hating it because they never did any soul searching, or get caught up chasing a degree and never make that choice at all.



You're a fucking moron. No one ever said it wasn't possible. Quit twisting my "realistic," into "impossible." Of course it's possible. But can everybody be a fucking electrical engineer?



Bullshit. Just because you were my age once, doesn't mean you ever learned anything while you were. And just because I'm not your age, doesn't mean I haven't learned anything about being older. You're speaking the standard refrain when confronted by arrogant truth. Read the second line of my sig again and see if you can't glean a little truth yourself from it, you retarded monkey.

But the more you write, the more you prove my point.

Young people like YOU can't make it in college.

Like I said before... check the enrollments of any university you'd like and rest assured -- they aren't ALL as pitifully immature as you. Yeah, they'll graduate with nothing more than that little piece of paper and a whole different outlook on the world that you've got. That alone is worth the price of tuition.

Time to grow up, Nappy. Or if you can't do that... at least STFU. You're making yourself look real bad with this discussion and greatly insulting the rest of your generation.

Nappy, I didn't say one word about DF not being able to find a man to MARRY her. That's not what this discussion is about... or are you having problems following this conversation, too?

Like I said before... check the enrollments of any university you'd like and rest assured -- they aren't ALL as pitifully immature as you. Yeah, they'll graduate with nothing more than that little piece of paper and a whole different outlook on the world that you've got. That alone is worth the price of tuition.
Though there's a lot in this thread with which I disagree with you, SMW, you're spot on here. That piece of paper is worth quite a bit these days, as I wish anyone good luck finding a good job with only a diploma. I'll earn the cost of my tuition many times over in the future, especially considering that most of my tuition is paid for with my scholarship. That's why I'm going to college.

Besides which, I will get more out of college than just the piece of paper. College changed my life in many ways, and I shall also learn quite a bit in my four years there. It's certainly the proper thing to do, at least for me.

Like I said before... check the enrollments of any university you'd like and rest assured -- they aren't ALL as pitifully immature as you.
Holy shit, OMG you're so right! Some of them actually do something! How could that have slipped my mind?

Oh wait. It didn't.

That alone is worth the price of tuition.
HAHAHAHAHA! To someone without any confidence in their own abilities, thirty grand is a great price to pay! To all the ballsy motherfuckers like me out there, we can get by.

Time to grow up, Nappy. Or if you can't do that... at least STFU. You're making yourself look real bad with this discussion and greatly insulting the rest of your generation.
Then why are they backing me up and attacking you? With the sole exception of Blibblob, who'se gotten fucked so many times trying to debate me, it's really amusing seeing him try to salvage some self-respect out of the deal.

Though there's a lot in this thread with which I disagree with you, SMW, you're spot on here. That piece of paper is worth quite a bit these days, as I wish anyone good luck finding a good job with only a diploma. I'll earn the cost of my tuition many times over in the future, especially considering that most of my tuition is paid for with my scholarship. That's why I'm going to college.

Besides which, I will get more out of college than just the piece of paper. College changed my life in many ways, and I shall also learn quite a bit in my four years there. It's certainly the proper thing to do, at least for me.

No confidence. America as a whole seems to have a complete mistrust of their own abilities. If college can help you get that, more power to you. But it has a lot less to do with the piece of paper, and a lot more to do with what you do with yourself after you have it. If you sit on your hands and ship out your resume, sure, eventually you'll get a job. If you really get out there, press the flesh of the world, take jobs not for the salary, but for the experience, you'll get much farther.

Though there's a lot in this thread with which I disagree with you, SMW, you're spot on here. That piece of paper is worth quite a bit these days, as I wish anyone good luck finding a good job with only a diploma. I'll earn the cost of my tuition many times over in the future, especially considering that most of my tuition is paid for with my scholarship. That's why I'm going to college.

Besides which, I will get more out of college than just the piece of paper. College changed my life in many ways, and I shall also learn quite a bit in my four years there. It's certainly the proper thing to do, at least for me.
Thanks for that Borg... I realize I'm not a popular poster around here right now, but that's OK. My purpose isn't to win popularity contests but to state my opinions. So I doubly appreciate your agreeing with at least one point.

You're right on about that degree being more than a piece of paper. You know what's funny? I never got my degree. Much like Nappy, thought I was 'too smart' for that scene, so I went straight to the working world. I've enjoyed quite a bit of success in various jobs... but never actually had a CAREER as such -- simply because I didn't have that little piece of paper saying I WAS something. For years, I griped and complained that it wasn't fair -- I was smart enough to handle any job a degreed employee could do, but as times got tougher in the job market, more and more of those graduates got the nod over me. If I had it to do over again, one thing I've always said... by george, I'd have a COMMA after my name and letters that would follow me all my life, proving to the world I'd accomplished something important.

If I could beat that longing into even one young person today, I'd consider my life successful.

P.S. Probably won't be Nappy though. His head is thick as the grand canyon!

Holy shit, OMG you're so right! Some of them actually do something! How could that have slipped my mind?

Oh wait. It didn't.


HAHAHAHAHA! To someone without any confidence in their own abilities, thirty grand is a great price to pay! To all the ballsy motherfuckers like me out there, we can get by.


Then why are they backing me up and attacking you? With the sole exception of Blibblob, who'se gotten fucked so many times trying to debate me, it's really amusing seeing him try to salvage some self-respect out of the deal.
"To all the ballsy motherfuckers like me out there, we can get by."

Pretty much sums it up, Nappy. Welcome to the working class... you'll fit right in. Probably work 10 times harder than you'd have to with that silly little piece of paper, but what the hell -- you the man, right!?

Class dismissed.

OK, you put a lot of importance on a college education, SMW. And you're absolutely right. That's why I am enrolled in college right now, at age 16, and yet you talk like I'm ruining my life!

For years, I griped and complained that it wasn't fair -- I was smart enough to handle any job a degreed employee could do, but as times got tougher in the job market, more and more of those graduates got the nod over me.

That's what caused your downfall. Smart-asses like us have to make our own luck, not sit around waiting for the perfect opportunity, and working for someone else expecting them to bring us our happiness. You failed yourself. Don't push your ignorant trash opinions on others.

Smarty, come home!!!! Great discussion going here, BTW!

:)
Kimi

No confidence. America as a whole seems to have a complete mistrust of their own abilities. If college can help you get that, more power to you.
It has nothing to do with a lack of confidence. I'm quite confident in my abilities to get a good job, learn on the job, and do it competently. The problem is, employers often aren't. Like it or not, you need to face reality: Employers look at that piece of paper and assign it a high value. Is that correct? Often yes, sometimes no. Sometimes the guy without the degree is somehow more qualified, but you know what? He rarely gets that job when he's competing with the guy with the degree. I can be as confident in my abilities as I am confident that the moon is not made of blue cheese, but all the confidence in the world is not going to help me if I can't get a decent job because I don't have a degree. What I'd call your view on this is "unrealistic optimism", because the world doesn't work the way you describe it. Sure, a guy without a degree can get a good job, but it's a hell of a lot more difficult that way. Your idealism, while admirable, is not going to put money in your pocket.

Well Nappy is kind of right here... I have three parents (dad, mom, and stepmom), and my mom is the only one with a college degree. She's also the only one who's unemployed, and of the jobs she's had, they have been much lower paying than my step-mom or dad's jobs. Granted, my step-mom has been at the same job for about 18 years, so she gets good pay and benefits, but my dad is an on-again-off-again heroin junkie, and he still makes about $80,000 a year. If you work hard enough and are good enough at something, you can get a good job with just a high school diploma. You don't need a college degree to specialize.

I'm getting a degree because I can't seem to find anything to specialize in. My degree will probably be in History, but that's not exactly a set-up for a career unless I go for my master's or doctorate, but I almost certainly won't.

Probably work 10 times harder than you'd have to with that silly little piece of paper, but what the hell -- you the man, right!?

You're goddamn right. And you know what I'll get out of the deal? Self-respect and dignity. I'll work 20 times harder than that to keep it. But, as it turns out, all you have to do is be smart and business oriented and social. To those fools, the world is their lollipop, and there are countless examples of success from people who had nothing else except a big old pair of nuts.

It has nothing to do with a lack of confidence. I'm quite confident in my abilities to get a good job, learn on the job, and do it competently. The problem is, employers often aren't. Like it or not, you need to face reality: Employers look at that piece of paper and assign it a high value. Is that correct? Often yes, sometimes no. Sometimes the guy without the degree is somehow more qualified, but you know what? He rarely gets that job when he's competing with the guy with the degree. I can be as confident in my abilities as I am confident that the moon is not made of blue cheese, but all the confidence in the world is not going to help me if I can't get a decent job because I don't have a degree. What I'd call your view on this is "unrealistic optimism", because the world doesn't work the way you describe it. Sure, a guy without a degree can get a good job, but it's a hell of a lot more difficult that way. Your idealism, while admirable, is not going to put money in your pocket.
Your problem is that you're looking for a job. Stop looking for a job, and start looking for a life, and shit starts falling in place.

DF - I did exactly what you are planning on doing and I admire you so much for wanting to be there for the kids, when they come along. That is more important than a lot of people realize. The problem was, my 'dream' didn't last, I found myself raising three hungry boys alone, THEN I tried to go to school because the very thing that SMW described - I wanted to provide a better life for my boys and I ran in to one obstacle after another because I didn't have the almighty piece of paper. I think you're smart to be going to college now. It always helps to have a back-up plan and I believe that's the gist of what SMW has been trying to say, while defending her stance against a smart ass man.......

:)
Kimi

Well Nappy is kind of right here... I have three parents (dad, mom, and stepmom), and my mom is the only one with a college degree. She's also the only one who's unemployed, and of the jobs she's had, they have been much lower paying than my step-mom or dad's jobs. Granted, my step-mom has been at the same job for about 18 years, so she gets good pay and benefits, but my dad is an on-again-off-again heroin junkie, and he still makes about $80,000 a year. If you work hard enough and are good enough at something, you can get a good job with just a high school diploma. You don't need a college degree to specialize.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's less probable and almost always more difficult. Sometimes you just have to play the odds.
Your problem is that you're looking for a job. Stop looking for a job, and start looking for a life, and shit starts falling in place.
Are the two mutually exclusive? I don't believe so.

It's always the failures that are the most vocal about what should be done. The successes are the ones other's write about, because they're too busy enjoying success to bother with an opinion.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I don't believe so.
Yes, they are. If you look for a life, then it doesn't matter what you're doing right now. You don't even care, you're too far above the petty squabbles that you can focus on what really matters. If you're looking for a job, you're caught up in the negative, especially if you're using the kind of reasoning you were in your previous post.

I work at a UPS store. If I was stupid, I would jump on the first available job opportunity that presents itself so I can make more money. It's unstrategic and foolish. My needs are currently being met and there's no big rush. I am currently carefully weighing my options and thinking slowly and carefully about my next move. Not that I'm idle. I just bought a new pickup truck to make money with.

Whatya got in mind for the pick up.

In my city, there's dozens of courier companies that will hire anyone with a pickup or even just a vehicle to deliver shit. You can make good money and connections doing this sort of work. They pay more for pickups, though. Especially once I put a cover over the bed so I can work in the rain. My schedule was just finalized at the store I'm in, so I'm just waiting for my GA registration to come through so I can start making calls to companies.

Right. Theres a lot of that goes on here also. A lot of the small loads are tendered out to Couriers, couple of examples off the top of my head, Newspapers, stationary. The sort of load it wouldnt pay a haulage truck to do.
Goodluck with it.

Not to be a pain.... but an IQ of 130 puts a person in the top 4% of the tested subjects... I think it's also the MENSA minimum requirement for admission based on Stanford-Bennett intelligence tests. I would say that an IQ of 130 would do quite well in the professions you listed (along with a good work/study ethic, and no ethics for your last example ;) )

/wave @ Sal
waves back at ya....Where the hell are you these days OldPhart? You used to post more...

I pulled that number out of my butt...hehe...I should have gone lower. Of course 130 is gifted but honestly I thought (by old standards) mensa requirement was in the 145 or more category and that standard acceptance for law school/ med school was 140 or more. NOW, that I have done my homework and looked it up, I see every thing is much lower. No wonder things are in such bad shape in the world. We are morons... ;)

Here's an updated chart... not relevant I guess but I always love this stuff so thanks for calling me on that or I would have remained uninformed...
IQ Range Classification
140 and over Genius or near genius
120-140 Very superior intelligence
110-120 Superior intelligence
90-110 Normal or average intelligence
80-90 Dullness
70-80 Borderline deficiency
Below 70 Definite feeble-mindedness

catch ya in another thread...

Sal's mistake made me laugh out loud. ;)
:slap: Brat!

"You can do ANYTHING you want to do"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Napsterbater
This line of thought is really a load of crap. I wish parents would stop handing this bullshit to their kids. It leads to all manner of irresponsible behavior.



Well, not really much to misunderstand about that exchange was there?

SMW in my opinion there is a tremendous amount to understand about that exchange. You assumed a tremendous amount about MY belief system (according to your reply) which is highly inaccurate. You asked no questions you just drew your own conclusions...that's fine...still doesn't mean you went in the right direction. I still agree with what he said. My comment had absolutely nothing to do with Dark Fantasy AT ALL. If you read back you will see that.

I apologize for running off on a tangent regarding DF's potential -- just hard for me to sit back and watch people tell a 16-yr old girl stuff like setting goals is a waste of time. It may be hard for you to hear that but this is not about you. If you read Dark Fantasy's posts not just this thread, she is struggling with daily stuff right now. To tell her to have long term goals is crap. She is at the stage where she is trying to find her balance. She will find her balance!!!! But overwhelming her at this point with life goals down the road is not a helpful approach. Which is why I said....each of us is different. Different approaches for different people is a good thing. Not everyone needs to fit the standard societal mold in order to achieve success. And that is a truth.

Of course, at the time I didn't realize she already has her heart set on being some man's housekeeper and nanny for the rest of her life. Guess what I shoulda said was "Dream on, silly girl. You've got a better chance of winning on American Idol!" That is so unfair. I am going to just leave this one as I think if you had read all of her other posts you would have a better understanding of where she is coming from and I really do not think you would have written this if you were more aware.



You're right... there are times when the harsh world of reality does indeed come into play when it comes to advising young people
:)
SMW. Yes and sometimes we just need to give them some space to find themselves first. And then a whole new world opens up for them. As it will for Dark Fantasy.

It has nothing to do with a lack of confidence. I'm quite confident in my abilities to get a good job, learn on the job, and do it competently. The problem is, employers often aren't. Like it or not, you need to face reality: Employers look at that piece of paper and assign it a high value. Is that correct? Often yes, sometimes no. Sometimes the guy without the degree is somehow more qualified, but you know what? He rarely gets that job when he's competing with the guy with the degree. I can be as confident in my abilities as I am confident that the moon is not made of blue cheese, but all the confidence in the world is not going to help me if I can't get a decent job because I don't have a degree. What I'd call your view on this is "unrealistic optimism", because the world doesn't work the way you describe it. Sure, a guy without a degree can get a good job, but it's a hell of a lot more difficult that way. Your idealism, while admirable, is not going to put money in your pocket.

When you walk through the door with a degree, it shows the employer a few things... you can stick things out, you have the ability to learn.

Where a degree really comes in handy is for advancement within the workplace later. Hands down EVERY time! You advance further and faster with less work.

It may be hard for you to hear that but this is not about you. If you read Dark Fantasy's posts not just this thread, she is struggling with daily stuff right now. To tell her to have long term goals is crap. She is at the stage where she is trying to find her balance. She will find her balance!!!! But overwhelming her at this point with life goals down the road is not a helpful approach. Which is why I said....each of us is different. Different approaches for different people is a good thing. Not everyone needs to fit the standard societal mold in order to achieve success. And that is a truth.


Thanks Sal... It's kind hard to have long-term goals at the moment. Just the fact that I'm going to be in school and interacting with other people in 15 days is pretty damn overwhelming.

When you walk through the door with a degree, it shows the employer a few things... you can stick things out, you have the ability to learn.
More importantly, it signals to an employer that you're willing to take tons of shit, work late and on weekends, and in general be a little bitch because you need the job to pay off loans.

If you're worried about what your signalling to an employer, you are just asking to be taken advantage of.

I think it's better to get a degree in the middle of a career, assuming you're middle class. If you're upper class, and can go to college without going into debt, then it's great. But going to college straight out of high school if you can't afford it is a fool's gambit. You're too young to know what you're doing, or where you're going. You have no idea if the career field you've chosen is the right one for you, and you have no idea if you'll even have a job when you graduate. There's tons of people out there who have the degree but not the job.

College teaches you a lot of things, but it doesn't teach you shit about the real world. It doesn't teach you how to sell yourself, deal with rejection, be social in the business world, and to find and attract mates. A person needs time to learn these things, assuming they didn't pick them up in high school, a much easier venue to do so. If they don't do it in high school, start going to college, finish college, they're still not going to know how to look for a job, not get taken advantage of, and in general be happy.

If they wait, they get real world experience to season their degree with. An employer won't look at the resume and thing, "Oh yeah, this guy waited, I'm hiring him!" but they'll see your initiative and drive and experience at the interviewing table. That's when it shines. When you actually know how to get things done in a business environment and not just an academic one.

The academic world doesn't do shit for the majority of Americans. All it does is give people an opportunity to fuck around a little longer before joining the real world.

I think it's better to get a degree in the middle of a career, assuming you're middle class. If you're upper class, and can go to college without going into debt, then it's great. But going to college straight out of high school if you can't afford it is a fool's gambit. You're too young to know what you're doing, or where you're going. You have no idea if the career field you've chosen is the right one for you, and you have no idea if you'll even have a job when you graduate. There's tons of people out there who have the degree but not the job.


There is such a thing as community college you know... That's what I'm doing, for my first two years. Even my decidedly middle class family can handle that, although it still puts a strain on our finances, but not any more than what my other friends spend on designer clothes and cars whatnot. Anyways, after I get my AA I'm going to take some time off, a year or so, before going back for my BA, so I can have some real-world experience, but since I'll have a 2-year degree, it might be at a better job than a cashier at the grocery store or something. Plus, after two years in college, I'm sure I'll have an idea as to what kind of job I'd like and then if I do end up liking whatever field I enter, that's what I'll be getting my BA in.

I'm not trying to say that college is bad for you in your particular situation, I'm just saying it's bad in general. I get it from all angles, "Go to college! Wah! I wish I had gone to college! Wah!" It's all "Wah!" and no intelligence or wisdom. What they really wish is that they had really grabbed life by the balls, not that they had gone to college. They just look at how stupid they were and then think that college would have made them smart. College doesn't make anyone smart. You're either smart or your not, and there's not a whole lot a person can do about it.

But what they can do is offer up their pathetic, belaboring opinion about what other people should do.

So if you want to go to a community college, I suspect you have a good reason for doing so. I went to community college. Didn't finish, but I know that the quality of education you get there isn't worth the price you pay for it, even if it is small. If they were good professors, they'd be teaching at the university or a private school. If your parents want to pay for it, that's their business, go to college on their dime and hope for the best. I personally wouldn't put a dime towards a community college education, unless I knew I was getting something real for my money.

but since I'll have a 2-year degree, it might be at a better job than a cashier at the grocery store or something. Plus, after two years in college,
Heh. Why is it either, work at McDonalds, or something similar, or have a good job? It's like your minds are so blinded by whether you succeed or fail that you forgot what life is all about. You can get into any career field you want without a degree. It just takes patience, balls, and a willingness to be social and learn from people.

Sure it might be less than entry level, but you'll still have some practical experience in that field before you go plunk down tons of hard earned money on just a chance that you'll make it big in that field. You might not even like it, you never know.

Well this community college is not only the second biggest institution of secondary education in the state of Maryland, I've also heard very good things about the quality of education there. I'm paying about $1600 per semester, including fees but not including text books, so it'll come out to about $2000.

Anyways, it's not "work at McDonalds or get a good job" for some people, like you perhaps. But for me, I have no idea what I want to do. I have no drive and no goals. I don't even have a high school diploma. What kind of good job would hire me right now?

Things change when you finish high school, sweetie. Use high school as an opportunity to learn how to be social and likable and demonstrate ballsy qualities when you talk, even if you don't have them. Just learn how to pretend.

It's much better to pretend to be audacious than to deal the the crap people will push to you if you're not. And pretending to be audacious isn't any different from actually being audacious, once you get good enough at pretending.

These are the things a real education is made of, learning social behaviors and how people tick. It's something you'll never learn in college, because college kids are engaged in running from reality, not engaging it, but something you have an excellent opportunity now to pick up in high school while you're still there.

If you can obtain such traits and knowledge, you'll be far more valuable to an employer, assuming that's what you want, after you graduate. Then, you can take any professional job that comes around, and you'll kill the interview without even breaking a sweat.

Look for the value you're providing, not for the impression you're causing. If you can demonstrate value, then the hiring official isn't taking a chance on you. He knows you'll work out.

Things change when you finish high school, sweetie. Use high school as an opportunity to learn how to be social and likable and demonstrate ballsy qualities when you talk, even if you don't have them. Just learn how to pretend.
She's not in high school; she got her GED and is in community college.

*shrugs* It's never too late to learn to be social and audacious. You just can't do it in college. Just pick somewhere else. I learned here on allForums and at a coffee shop.

It's never too late to learn to be social and audacious. You just can't do it in college.
You have the strangest ideas about college.

I think drinking is fine if the drinker doesn't get into a state where they might cause harm to themselves or others due to loss of control or black out. If you drink everyday but never gets into a drunken brawl at a bar or get behind the wheels, I am not sure it can even be called alcoholism...unless you drink so much that you are getting health problems.
new years eve was one of the toughest we've had. i had to beat the fuck out of 5 guys and 2 women that night. one guy pulled a gun and as we were trying to get him under control, his buddy pulled a knife and stabbed one of our guys.its the fucking assholes that can't handle their drinks that make me love my job.
our regulars are probably alcoholics but they never give us any problems.

You really can't. It's inevitable that you'll get caught up in the academic way of doing things, and that is light years away from the way things are done in real life. You get too focused on the course material, and forget the larger lessons inherent.

Someone particularly intelligent could learn such a thing there. If you're not particularly intelligent, you're not going to learn how to be. To learn it in high school only requires observation and action. Observation and action doesn't work in college because of the warped priorities.

More importantly, it signals to an employer that you're willing to take tons of shit, work late and on weekends, and in general be a little bitch because you need the job to pay off loans.

If you're worried about what your signalling to an employer, you are just asking to be taken advantage of.

The thing is, every employer is looking for entry level people to take tons of shit, work late and on weekends, and in general be THEIR work slave. AND do it for relatively low pay. Been there done that. The thing is getting your ass through their door also costs THEM a ton of money to train you regardless of how low you start, training costs are huge.

So you get your degree and get your ass through their door. Work like a slave and do everything they ask. Plus if you're smart you will do MORE. It's known as the invaluable employee and that is the backbone of your company. It will set you apart from the other drones. And they do NOT want to lose that person. When raise time comes around your ability to negotiate is huge. Bubba who sits on his ass is expendable.

It's all about production.

But going to college straight out of high school if you can't afford it is a fool's gambit. You're too young to know what you're doing, or where you're going. You have no idea if the career field you've chosen is the right one for you, and you have no idea if you'll even have a job when you graduate. There's tons of people out there who have the degree but not the job. You need to replace the word you in there with the word I. Perhaps that is best for you. For others it is different.

A degree unless it is specialized such as computer, is merely a stepping stone. But it is a valuable tool that can lead in many different directions as it opens doors that would otherwise stay shut. Most people if they want to rocket up will stay with a company less than three years. They learn what they can and use it to leap up. It is very hard to do this without those little letters behind your name.

College teaches you a lot of things, but it doesn't teach you shit about the real world. That is not the purpose of university. It is for higher learner not real world teaching.


they're still not going to know how to look for a job, not get taken advantage of, and in general be happy. Ah, I beg to differ. Someone with a bachelors who doesn't know how to job hunt? There's such a thing in university as research. If they know zero about being practical they have been in a bubble for 20 years.



The academic world doesn't do shit for the majority of Americans. Correct, which is why the average factory worker does not have a degree.
All it does is give people an opportunity to fuck around a little longer before joining the real world That is does, and at the end of it, you go forth into the world better armed to handle yourself and whatever it will throw at you.

Work like a slave and do everything they ask.

Bahahahaha! The entirety of your argument boils down to this! Go right ahead! Wage slavery is all there for the taking! Go out and grab your piece!

Higher learning my ass! None of it is useful. Absolutely none of it! You're not proving shit to anyone, least of all a potential employer. They want someone to take it up the ass, not a producer. If wage slavery is what you're looking for, you'll be a damn slave your entire life. You'll fritter it away looking for that next raise, that big promotion. Then it'll never be the great thing that will get you out of your hell that you think it'll be.

People who produce are dangerous. They get targeted with office politics by people who like the status quo. Every new job is a crapshoot. Maybe they'll like your industriousness, maybe they won't. Maybe you'll get rewarded, maybe you won't. You're not significantly increasing your chances for happiness with a degree or with a good job. Happiness is taken, not earned.

The Protestant work ethic is the biggest load of garbage I've ever laid eyes and ears on. Those who work the hardest, get rewarded with more work.

Bahahahaha! The entirety of your argument boils down to this! Go right ahead! Wage slavery is all there for the taking! Go out and grab your piece!

Higher learning my ass! None of it is useful. Absolutely none of it! You're not proving shit to anyone, least of all a potential employer. They want someone to take it up the ass, not a producer. If wage slavery is what you're looking for, you'll be a damn slave your entire life. You'll fritter it away looking for that next raise, that big promotion. Then it'll never be the great thing that will get you out of your hell that you think it'll be.. Nice twist. With a degree, a relatively low wage will be faaaaaar higher than what you would expect without the degree.

People who produce are dangerous. They get targeted with office politics by people who like the status quo. We're not talking about working on a factory line here Nappy. It is not union regulated where they control production. Once one gets to this level of work most pride themselves on their ability to produce and admire others that do.

Every new job is a crapshoot. Maybe they'll like your industriousness, maybe they won't. Maybe you'll get rewarded, maybe you won't. We obviously are speaking of totally different work environments but hey, continue on.


You're not significantly increasing your chances for happiness with a degree or with a good job. Happiness is taken, not earned. So what's your point? Happiness is not earned or taken. Happiness is merely a byproduct of a multitude of things present in a person's life.

The Protestant work ethic is the biggest load of garbage I've ever laid eyes and ears on. Those who work the hardest, get rewarded with more work Entirely depends upon whether or not your education and skills are a bargaining tool or a trap. Hence the different perspective on the work place.

We obviously are speaking of totally different work environments but hey, continue on.
No, we're really not. You think the professional world is any different from the production world, or the service world? It isn't. It's still far more about taking shit than doing anything real. All work environments are basically the same, the only difference is what kind of boat you're rowing. You could get lucky, and get into something truly kick-ass. But it's by no means guaranteed, and no career field is likelier to yield kick-ass jobs than any other. It's all luck, and how bold you are. The bold can make their own luck. But college destroys the bold in people. It whittles it away under the pressure of endless tests, study, and projects. You get used to taking all that shit, and you just expect it when you get to your next job.

With a degree, a relatively low wage will be faaaaaar higher than what you would expect without the degree.
Who cares? Your prison can be one of squalor or one of luxury. But the bars are just as hard. Fight hard to earn your slavery, then fight hard to keep it.

We're not talking about working on a factory line here Nappy. It is not union regulated where they control production. Once one gets to this level of work most pride themselves on their ability to produce and admire others that do.
Who cares about a factory line? I've never worked a factory in my life! All those jobs are getting outsourced anyway! I'm talking about every job that exists! You either luck into a good one or fall into a shitty one. Your only bargaining chip is your feet. If you think a degree is going to help you get a good job, think again. It might get you a higher paying one, but it's just as likely to be a bad job.

Happiness is merely a byproduct of a multitude of things present in a person's life.
Another load of crap. A persons brain manufactures it's own happiness. You can do this consciously or unconsciously. A bold person, one willing to take risks, can be happy no matter what he does. He is never afraid to reach out and grab happiness. Sure he might lose jobs because of it. Sure he might have to work harder. But being bold, having balls, and taking initiative, they are their own rewards. And going to college is the worst thing you can do to find them.

I'm talking about every job that exists! You either luck into a good one or fall into a shitty one. Your only bargaining chip is your feet. If you think a degree is going to help you get a good job, think again. It might get you a higher paying one, but it's just as likely to be a bad job.

It's true that there is a massive amount of luck involved in getting a good job. But a degree does increase the odds. If I studied photoshop, indesign, illustrator, etc in my own time and went to apply for a graphic design position I'd have only my word to back up my "education". But a college degree is proof that x-number of years were spent on a concentrated study. Then again, a student could party all through college and barely graduate. BUT, regardless, a degree does matter to an employer. It's not always fair, but that's currently how the system works and there's just no denying that.

But a degree does increase the odds.
It all depends on what you consider a good job. Working for EA as a programmer may make you a lot of money, but I wouldn't consider it a good job, as they have a bad reputation for being horrible to their programmers. It doesn't matter what kind of boat you're rowing if you never get to enjoy it.

It's always the failures that are the most vocal about what should be done. The successes are the ones other's write about, because they're too busy enjoying success to bother with an opinion.

You finally got something RIGHT. It's kinda like this:

Nappy: I don't need an education -- I already know enough to get a job and I'm smart enough to get by on my wits!

SMW: I felt the same way when I was your age. And took the same path. You might oughta watch out, because there's a huge firepit ahead on this path and if you keep going in the same direction I did, you'll have to walk thru fire for, oh, say 40 years. You'll survive, but the pain will be horrific at times.

Nappy: HA! What do you know? You're just an old dumb woman who failed at your 'uneducated' career! I ain't scared of no firepit -- I' ve got huge gahonies!!

SMW: Whatever, sonny. If been there, done that, got the tattered teeshirt isn't qualification to give advice, not sure what is. Trudge on.

Just let me say this... you are at the age where 'society' gives you a chance to prepare to support yourself for the rest of your life. 'We' offer you student loans, scholarships, tax deductions, exemption from military service (when/if there's a draft in effect) and lots of other perks to encourage and support you thru your education. If you choose not to take advantage of it now, you can always do it later... when it's 10 times harder. Or you can spend the next 40-45 years of your life competing for wages against people with degrees, like I did. Yeah, you might be able to find a job, but I can nearly guarantee you that you'll always be working FOR someone who has that silly little piece of paper... regardless of how smart you THINK you are.

And that's the truth.

Pftttttttttttttttttt
SMW

Ladies, I'm not trying to be a hardass here. Sal, I know DF's had/having a hard time growing up and you're only trying to help her by tiptoeing around her, but that's not my style. Sorry if I stepped on your toes about the 'goals' thing, but I stand by what I said. If there's anyone here who NEEDS a few good goals, it's DF.

The way I see it (and I'm sure my opinion won't be that popular) -- Ms. DF is still a CHILD. If she lived in my state, she wouldn't be old enough to quit high school and get her GED, much less be 'legally' sexual active, drinking and doing drugs. She also couldn't attend even a community college until she was over 21 (a deterrent to children skipping high school and going straight on to college). She would in all likelihood be a ward of Child Protective Services until she reached the age of consent... 17. And there's a good possibility her heroin-addicted father and pot-smoking mother would be in custody for child endangerment, as well, for not making her stay in school.

Now if you want to try to be her g/f, that's your choice. But I think she needs some ADULT input into her problems, not the least of which is that she's trying to make ADULT decisions about the rest of her life with her 16-yr old brain.. and you're trying to help her. It's not my business why she dropped out of high school, but I will say there's alot more to be learned by completing one's HIGH SCHOOL education than a diploma. Like maturity, for one.

It's worth repeating that I think DF sounds like a very intelligent, but VERY immature young woman. Which is perfectly normal, considering her age. If everybody wants to tiptoe around that fact to avoid hurting her feelings, that's your business. My opinion is... she ought to go back to high school and stop trying to play grown-up. She's got the rest of her life to be grown up, but only one chance to be 16.

Hope we can agree to disagree on this one. There's always room for at least two sides of every issue, eh?

:)
SMW

Ladies, I'm not trying to be a hardass here. Sal, I know DF's had/having a hard time growing up and you're only trying to help her by tiptoeing around her, but that's not my style. Sorry if I stepped on your toes about the 'goals' thing, but I stand by what I said. If there's anyone here who NEEDS a few good goals, it's DF.
Actually you didn't step on my toes I still don't think you get the concept but that's okay too.

Also tiptoeing isn't my style either. But neither is a sledge hammer. ;)


The way I see it (and I'm sure my opinion won't be that popular) Doesn't matter if your opinion is popular. If we all thought the same way there wouldn't be a board. On a board such as this I think generally, we learn from those we disagree with. We band with, and take comfort from those who see things our way.


Now if you want to try to be her g/f, that's your choice. I am not her girlfirend but yeah, I really would rather support her and hear where she's coming from. The few adults that did that for me are the ones that made me see eventually things would get better. They treated me like an adult long enough for me to realize that I should adopt the behaviour.

But I think she needs some ADULT input into her problems. Yeah I know you do... Lots of people do. Everyone talks but no one hears because everyone thinks they know what is best for another. On the Myers Brigg personality type indicator I would wager you are an extremely high "J". Once you make a decision you are hell bent and nothing deters you. :) Works for you.

Hope we can agree to disagree on this one. There's always room for at least two sides of every issue, eh?

:)
SMW Girl there is always room for a multitude of opinions. It makes the world spin. Take ya down in another thread. ;) Cheers.

ENTP on Myers Brigg, but yeah, once I have an opinion, it's pretty hard to sway me on it.

Especially since I feel so strongly about this situation because I've not only been in Nappy's shoes (by deciding not to do the college thing), but I've also been in DF's (by deciding I was mature enough to play adult and get married at 17).

Looking back, I wish to hell someone would have had the guts to convince me what a HUGE mistake I was making in trying to grow up too fast. Yeah, it might not have done any good, because we all know 16-yr olds don't listen much... but I wish they would have least TRIED. My older brother was the only one who ever stood up to me and said, WHOA! Which made the difference between me getting married at 16... or waiting until I was 17 and graduated HS before making my own stupid decision.

Guess it's just a matter of wanting them both to 'do what I say, not what I do' -- but of course, we both know that rarely works, does it? If kids could learn from OUR mistakes, pretty soon, it'd be a perfect world!

:)
SMW

ENTP.......holy wow....THAT is funny. A "T" is not all that usual in a female. So we are cousins as I am an ENFP...very, very similar. See now I could have sworn you would be a really high J. But yeah we are both looking at this thing from our own personal past thing.

17 sure is young to marry. Oh well, live and learn. :D

The way I see it (and I'm sure my opinion won't be that popular) -- Ms. DF is still a CHILD. If she lived in my state, she wouldn't be old enough to quit high school and get her GED, much less be 'legally' sexual active, drinking and doing drugs. She also couldn't attend even a community college until she was over 21 (a deterrent to children skipping high school and going straight on to college). She would in all likelihood be a ward of Child Protective Services until she reached the age of consent... 17. And there's a good possibility her heroin-addicted father and pot-smoking mother would be in custody for child endangerment, as well, for not making her stay in school.
Honestly, in my eyes, that would all be lovely. I would be all for DF to have gotten a diploma instead of a GED, attending a university at 18, and I want to see her mom in jail right now (and her dad in jail previously; the guy's clean presently, and seems decent enough). I would also like a flying unicorn. It didn't happen, it can't happen. DF's circumstances threw her into this situation, and honestly, I can't think of anything better to be doing with that shitty situation right now. She can turn 18 and have a diploma, or do one better and turn 18 and have an AA. Which will be more useful to her? The AA, obviously.
Now if you want to try to be her g/f, that's your choice. But I think she needs some ADULT input into her problems, not the least of which is that she's trying to make ADULT decisions about the rest of her life with her 16-yr old brain.. and you're trying to help her. It's not my business why she dropped out of high school, but I will say there's alot more to be learned by completing one's HIGH SCHOOL education than a diploma. Like maturity, for one.
One of the problems I constantly had with my mom's partner of five years, Kelly, was that she would constantly treat me like a child. She would afford me no freedom, and make constant decisions for me. Keep in mind I lived with this woman until I was nearly 15. Looking back on that, Kelly taught me nothing about being an adult, and only engendered contempt with me. My mom gave me far more freedom, and so did my dad. I learned more being allowed to make my own decisions than I did merely being told what to do. And if I was about to make a mistake, they didn't call me a child and attempt to limit my freedom; rather, they reasoned with me and offered me alternatives. You're offering alternatives to DF, but as one very familiar with the situation, they're unreasonable and not the right things to do. You can't magically undo what she did while she was in Costa Rica. I can't either, and lord knows I'd like to. You do the best with what you have to work with, and community college is the best choice right now.
It's worth repeating that I think DF sounds like a very intelligent, but VERY immature young woman. Which is perfectly normal, considering her age. If everybody wants to tiptoe around that fact to avoid hurting her feelings, that's your business. My opinion is... she ought to go back to high school and stop trying to play grown-up. She's got the rest of her life to be grown up, but only one chance to be 16.
Community college will be similar in experience to high school for her, and she'll leave it with a degree and two years credit that can be transferred to a university. What's wrong with that?

While we're on about the Myers-Brigg, I'm an INTJ. ;)

I honestly don't see how having my AA at 18 is worse than having my high school diploma at 18. That just makes no sense to me.

Honestly, I don't think that college will be much different than high school, other than the fact that the academics will actually be at my level. (I am not bragging here, so don't tell me I'm "trying to play adult" with this, because I've been in gifted classes all my life, and academics come easy to me, even if they are the only thing that does.) I also hope that college will have less drama and immaturity than high school. And yes, I know I haven't been to high school, but I've had high school friends since I was in elementary school and I know what it's like.

You're right, Borg, I don't know all the facts about DF's circumstances. Whatever road you both feel she's 'destined' to be on right now, I wish her well.

It's interesting what you said about people treating you 'like a child' before you turned 15. I just heard on the news this morning that the results of a new study are in and it appears humans in their teens are HARDWIRED to have problems getting along with adults. Something about certain areas of the brain transforming from child-like thinking to adult-like reasoning abilities. In a perfect world, we'd be able to 'protect' young people from having to make decisions their brains aren't ready for. But usually our only power is to try and point them in the right direction and hope for the best.

And I really do wish the best for both of you.

:)
SMW

You finally got something RIGHT. It's kinda like this:

Nappy: I don't need an education -- I already know enough to get a job and I'm smart enough to get by on my wits!

SMW: I felt the same way when I was your age. And took the same path. You might oughta watch out, because there's a huge firepit ahead on this path and if you keep going in the same direction I did, you'll have to walk thru fire for, oh, say 40 years. You'll survive, but the pain will be horrific at times.

Nappy: HA! What do you know? You're just an old dumb woman who failed at your 'uneducated' career! I ain't scared of no firepit -- I' ve got huge gahonies!!

SMW: Whatever, sonny. If been there, done that, got the tattered teeshirt isn't qualification to give advice, not sure what is. Trudge on.

Just let me say this... you are at the age where 'society' gives you a chance to prepare to support yourself for the rest of your life. 'We' offer you student loans, scholarships, tax deductions, exemption from military service (when/if there's a draft in effect) and lots of other perks to encourage and support you thru your education. If you choose not to take advantage of it now, you can always do it later... when it's 10 times harder. Or you can spend the next 40-45 years of your life competing for wages against people with degrees, like I did. Yeah, you might be able to find a job, but I can nearly guarantee you that you'll always be working FOR someone who has that silly little piece of paper... regardless of how smart you THINK you are.

And that's the truth.

Pftttttttttttttttttt
SMW
I get this kind of shit all the time. Failures telling me I'm going to fail too. All the fucking time. So many goddamn failures whining and bitching and nagging, because I won't accept their opinion. Nag all you want cutie pie. On and on and fucking on.

Look, nothing we say here is going to magically change anyone's life. Nobody's going to read our discussion here and think, "Holy shit, Nappy said I'm not in the right place, let me drop out of college and get in the real world. I don't need that degree! It just isn't going to happen. So lay off your bullshit, okay?

I don't have the answers. Nobody has the answers. Just get real comfy with the questions, okay. There's six billion ways on this planet to live life, and more are getting born every second. All I care to do, all I ever care to do, is describe what people are doing to each other, day in and day out. I use personal experience, philosophy, and cognitive science to glean this information. I do not want to be one of the thousands of gurus out handing out advice to people. Advice is suspect, no matter who it comes from.

All of your stupid, "arguments," are born from the idea that you think I am giving DF an "answer" to live life by. I am in no such business. I am just saying shit that needs to be said. College is fucking worthless. I understand that society places an enormous fucking deal about college and all it's purported benefits, and it's willing to even give you the money to go. I don't give a rat's ass. Religion's free too. If you want to choose society's answer, I am all for it. If you don't have any passion in your life, someone else will tell you what to care about. If you do, then you don't give a fuck.

That's where I'm at right now, seriously not giving a fuck.

In a perfect world, we'd be able to 'protect' young people from having to make decisions their brains aren't ready for. But usually our only power is to try and point them in the right direction and hope for the best.
True enough.

In this case, SMW, I would argue that the mistakes have already been made, and all that's left is to strike out on the path to adulthood. As much as you and I both would like to give DF her innocence back and let her be "normal", I'm afraid it isn't going to happen. It's a nice thought, but entirely unrealistic; innocence, once lost, is not reattainable. I suspect that's what you have in mind, but that sounds like a futile effort to me. Just my opinion. Thank you for the well wishes, by the way.

I hate to say that I don't have any passion in life, Napster... My passion is for the little things, and just for living life one day at a time and crossing each bridge as I come to it. I don't have a huge goal in life or something that I really like to do above all other things. I'm not going to college so I can get a better job or whatever (although I know that it will help and that's a good secondary reason), because if that was my only reason I'd probably not go. I'm going so that I can learn. I don't like just sitting around the house all day, and I probably won't learn anything from being someone's slave at a job full time. I want to learn things, I love being in a classroom. I know that college won't teach me much about "real life", but I've been exposed quite enough to the realities of life for now, and I'd like to escape from that while I'm in class.

Nappy: "Look, nothing we say here is going to magically change anyone's life. Nobody's going to read our discussion here and think, "Holy shit, Nappy said I'm not in the right place, let me drop out of college and get in the real world. I don't need that degree! It just isn't going to happen. So lay off your bullshit, okay?"

I have no doubt my words to you are falling on deaf ears and really don't expect you to listen. However, what I do expect is sometime down the road... say 20 years from now, you'll stop and think, "Man, wish I'd listened to that crazy ole biotch."

Just knowing that WILL happen is reward enough for me, thank you.

And in fact... after reading your thoughts on higher education, I've totally changed my mind about what you OUGHTA do.

I think you need to enlist in the military so you can actually GROW UP. Can't get by on your boyish charms all your life, ya know?

And BTW, good luck in the courier biz. Hear there's a fortune to be made out there.

SMW, I think Napster just wants to cause a stir here. He probably is exaggerating his points a bit so he can disagree with everyone else.

I think you need to enlist in the military so you can actually GROW UP.
Ahahahhahahaa! Been there, done that.

ROFL!

Ahahahhahahaa! Been there, done that.

ROFL!
Oooh, now that's a really scary statement!

Excuse me if I don't believe you ever got past bootcamp, please.

SMW, I think Napster just wants to cause a stir here. He probably is exaggerating his points a bit so he can disagree with everyone else.
I'm sure you're right, DF. Nobody could be that dense.

;)
SMW

I hate to say that I don't have any passion in life, Napster... My passion is for the little things, and just for living life one day at a time and crossing each bridge as I come to it. I don't have a huge goal in life or something that I really like to do above all other things. I'm not going to college so I can get a better job or whatever (although I know that it will help and that's a good secondary reason), because if that was my only reason I'd probably not go. I'm going so that I can learn. I don't like just sitting around the house all day, and I probably won't learn anything from being someone's slave at a job full time. I want to learn things, I love being in a classroom. I know that college won't teach me much about "real life", but I've been exposed quite enough to the realities of life for now, and I'd like to escape from that while I'm in class.
That's fiiiiiiiine, sweetie! Enjoy your stay! I know I enjoyed my little stint in college. So many women, so little time! If I hadn't been a shy sad sack when I was there, I'd probably have my degree. Joined the military because I wanted something real in my life.

Oooh, now that's a really scary statement!

Excuse me if I don't believe you ever got past bootcamp, please.
I did. Even got to my first duty station. Got about a year into it before I couldn't take it anymore and got my ass out.

Hah... I thought about the army. I'd never make it through boot camp though, just for physical reasons. I'm weak and clumsy with horrible eyesight. :D

SMW, I think Napster just wants to cause a stir here. He probably is exaggerating his points a bit so he can disagree with everyone else.
Oh, I'm not exaggerating, I'm just using my own psychology to be able to have these arguments. I fully believe in everything I say. I just say my thoughts in words that fill up the entire page, that you cannot ignore. That you're forced to disagree with, because you can't imagine that someone could believe it. But if you read the words carefully, and use semantics to figure out what I mean, you'll find that I'm saying a lot less than I seem to be.

You're saying that college is worthless, which is not true at all.

Maybe you can make it and be successful without an education, I know there are many people like that, including my father. But it involves having natural talents and being very dedicated and hardworking. My only natural talents are for learning, so I think college is the way to go for me. Dedication is not my strong suit, as I'm very flighty and impatient and tend to change my mind a lot. Hard work is not my strong suit either. I couldn't do what my father has done, which is rise up the ranks of construction work as a talented and dedicated worker and good supervisor, so he is now a general superintendent with a large international company. They do a lot of government work.

You're saying that college is worthless, which is not true at all.
We're talking semantics here. A statement of worth is completely subjective. I can say college is worthless, and you can say college is invaluable, and both would be true statements.

Well it's like I said, different things are worth more to different people.

That's fine, but you should know that my statement is subjective, and not bother trying to sway my wholly subjective opinion. You can argue with any objective things I say, but it's a futile pursuit to argue with someone's opinion.

Well, it's been fun, but I really have to get going.

I don't think I'm "arguing" with you... You're saying your subjective opinion and I'm giving you mine. Neither of us is going to change our mind, but it's nice to see someone else's point of view sometimes.

That's fine, but you should know that my statement is subjective, and not bother trying to sway my wholly subjective opinion. You can argue with any objective things I say, but it's a futile pursuit to argue with someone's opinion.

Sometimes we do change people's opinions though. Sometimes people change mine which is why I bother to read and post. Bottom line is, it's "more information" be it correct or incorrect it makes one think. Even just typing exercises the brain cells and that is a good thing.

It really matters not whether people agree or disagree, it's still an exchange.

Well it's like I said, different things are worth more to different people.

I like that line...a good reminder.

I look at posting here like I was playing chess. I play to win. These discussions, life in general, and work and play, are all social activities. We do it to impress each other and get things from them, whether it's recognition, love, money, or even a good friend. That's what being social means, doing stuff with others in mind. We can act like it's all a non-zero sum game, and that everybody can win, but in reality, when the cognitive science chips are down, we're all essentially in it for ourselves, and everyone plays to win. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just being social. The same give and take that exists everywhere.

So I say, fuck it. If you have to be abrasive, if you need to be confrontational, so be it. You're not doing anything bad, and instead, you're giving other people a chance to look at something new and interesting. You're giving them an experience they can remember. That they can think about later on down the road and glean new insights from. I loved college. I'm sure Borgie and DF will love it too. But I hope, and my aim is, not to convince them otherwise, but that they'll remember what I said whenever they get out of college and it comes time to buckle down and look for a real life. That they can be bold and not expect life to be the same way as it is in college. That they can remember high school and learn from it, as they have to deal with politics and ugliness. It's mere foolishness to expect otherwise, that they won't have to deal with it. I'm giving them a paradigm they can use to put these things in five years down the road.

SMW and Sal, you guys would only give them college, and expect it to serve them well. I wish to give them psychology and useful ways to think about things. College itself will not make them succeed. Too many other motherfuckers doing exactly the same thing. Yes, both are particularly intelligent, but that is of little consequence. Intelligence is not the be all and end all of happiness. For that, you have to be bold. Any idiot can destroy intelligence, particularly the idiot hiding in your own mind. Boldness is telling that inner idiot that he won't run your life.

It's kind of funny how you act like I have no idea how to survive in "real life".

College itself will not make them succeed.
I don't think anyone has said college "itself" will make people succeed. But it gives people a higher chance at succeeding in life, both socially and financially. The parties, living with a roommate and the different kinds of people you meet all help you socially. And this typically helps you later in life socially. And obviously you will most likely make more money and or get better jobs if you go to college. Which makes college important IMO just because it gives you a greater shot at making the best out of life.

It's kind of funny how you act like I have no idea how to survive in "real life".
Not at all. I'm sure you know quite a bit of what goes on. But, as I said earlier, my target isn't so obvious. It's the subconscious mind. That little fucker is responsible for so much failure in society that it can be considered the worst enemy a person can ever encounter. It dictates your focus, your drive, it's responsible for your lack of passion, for all the negative emotions you feel. You wouldn't feel them if it were all conscious.

Boldness is the only answer. Boldness is the only way. Having the balls to reach out and grab your happiness.

I think I'm gonna need some kind of drugs (mind you, I'm talking about legal ones here) to "reach out and grab my happiness". I know, I know, call me a pussy for not being able to overcome my mental problems. Not that I've given up, but objectively I don't think it's likely for me to get through everything on my own, at least not any time in the next year or so.

Boldness is not doing everything on your own. Boldness is having the balls to ask other people to help you achieve your dreams. If you need drugs, you need drugs. This is a social game, and you have to be social to succeed. You have me, you have Borg, you have everyone here, you have your teachers, you have strangers you meet on the street. Any one of them can further you towards your dream. You just have to be bold enough to talk to them, to ask them questions. My psychology may be able to help you quell your inner demons, or not. You have to figure that out on your own. But I will be behind you, prodding you, demanding more of you, as long as you choose to associate with me. That is my way of being social. I would give you something real, not useless platitudes. You can take it or leave it, I could care less. But you'll never get me to stop. I demand nothing less.

Aw, that was completely nice Napster.

See what you have to do to get something nice out of me? Was it worth it?