So...one of the aged old questions in the argument over the logic behind God is rather or not he could have always been.

I was talking to a co-worker last night who claims to be completely athiest - so I was intrigued at what he had to say about this issue. I was surprised to find that this was one of the areas he said he could actually buy into.

I was flabbergasted. I asked, "How can you accept that a God could have had no start but dont believe in him?"

I found his answer most interesting. He says he believes that everything has "always been." He says just as the planets came together through the bonding of materials after the "big bang" - we, as humans as well as other creatures, went through similar origins. He believes that the energy that is our existence continues going forward long after our death. Energy can not be created or destroyed...therefore, it has always been. The energy within us now, has took the form of a human and it will escape into the ground when we are burried...and it will change into something more. Over millions or perhaps billions of years this energy will create new things.

I thought this was such an interesting and convincing argument. It helps me get a better grasp on the possibility of evolution and the move from a Dinosaur ruled planet to a human one. The energy kept moving; kept changing.

I thought I would bring this up, and see what you all have to say about the theory.

I found his answer most interesting. He says he believes that everything has "always been."
That's been my stance as well for a while now.

Why do you say ‘he’?

it's not really a theory it is a fact. Matter is nothing but energy. The O2 we breathe in is nothing more than energy in the form of O2, the energy becomes part of us, the energy moves out of us. The boundary between us and everything else is truly artificial - something we perceive.

Now, as to how that ties into God, a soul and so on - all that is speculation and open to theories.

The world we live in is mostly an illusion because we make the world out of what we percieve and we get wrapped up in it - it becomes a story we create each and every day. Cleaning your windows from time to time is very interesting but you have to go looking in some cow dung to make any progress.

Why do you say ‘he’?

Because he was talking to a guy?

Well, matter is just another form of energy. We've all seen the equation E=MCsquared. Explorations into quantum physics suggest that all matter is just bits of energy resonating in the correct phase. This would confirm your friend's thinking that what was, is, and will be.

Because he was talking to a guy?


Interesting dilemma, and what is that old adage, large nuggets of wisdom, often come in small packages. But it does point out the problems with words such as you, and he, and things that we assume.

ShadowWalker seems to have a pet peeve of people referring to the Judeo-Christian deity as he. I'm still trying to determine what his damage is.

He says he believes that everything has "always been."

But what happened the day before "always been?"

That's the part I don't get.

But what happened the day before "always been?"

That's the part I don't get.

My thoughts exactly.

Steven Hawking explains this by asking the audience "What lies north of the north pole?"

The answer is of course nothing, since moving from the north pole in any direction you would be moving away from the point of reference. Similarly, the concept of "before" relies on a reference point in time. With the "always have been" theory, therefore, it is unnecessary and indeed impossible to speculate what there is before "always has been". The concept of time is contingent and only meaningful within everything that "always has been".

That makes sense, dio.

Another question--this energy we're discussing---where did it come from?

And Ren... your pic reminds me of yet another question. Did the Egyptians just wake up one morning and decide to build the pyramids? Was it blind hope that made them bury their kings in tombs with all their worldly goods?

I think the "where did x come from" kind of question is basically the same as the "what is there before x" kind of questions. So in the EHAB line of thought, this is again not going to be possible to answer or even ask. Because we experience the concept of time from birth, we naturally see events as temporally and spacially referencial to every other events. It is difficult to imagine, but in EHAB thinking, since there is not even "nothing" outside of EHAB, really no discussion is possible about it. In fact I don't think it would make sense to use "outside of" to reference any imaginary thing relative to EHAB.

To put it rhetorically. The space-time boundary of EHAB is not so much a physical one as an...ontological, epistemological one.

The ex nihilo alternative (like Judeo-Christian tradition) is pretty much equally arbitrary and renders such questions as "what comes before that which created everything" (most often referred as god) meaningless.

I think the "where did x come from" kind of question is basically the same as the "what is there before x" kind of questions. So in the EHAB line of thought, this is again not going to be possible to answer or even ask. Because we experience the concept of time from birth, we naturally see events as temporally and spacially referencial to every other events. It is difficult to imagine, but in EHAB thinking, since there is not even "nothing" outside of EHAB, really no discussion is possible about it. In fact I don't think it would make sense to use "outside of" to reference any imaginary thing relative to EHAB.

To put it rhetorically. The space-time boundary of EHAB is not so much a physical one as an...ontological, epistemological one.

The ex nihilo alternative (like Judeo-Christian tradition) is pretty much equally arbitrary and renders such questions as "what comes before that which created everything" (most often referred as god) meaningless.

I think UNKNOWABLE is a better word.

Too much thinking on this topic will drive a person to the funny farm!

Did God ( energy) just create Himself?
Or, by us mortals naming him, did we all call him into being (like the old legends of deities say?)

A fascinating subject, but in the end, unknowable to us mortals.
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And Ren... your pic reminds me of yet another question. Did the Egyptians just wake up one morning and decide to build the pyramids? Was it blind hope that made them bury their kings in tombs with all their worldly goods
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I'm no Egyptologist, SMW, but I think I remember reading somewhere that their ( the Egyptians) entire earthly lives where spent in preparation for the Afterlife. And if you didn't have a proper burial, that was it for you!!

(They even mummified insects! Now, how in the world did they do THAT???....)

I agree. Unknowable is the best word.

[QUOTE=rendova]Too much thinking on this topic will drive a person to the funny farm!QUOTE]

You got that right! Although I don't expect any of us mortal beings to come up with answers, it is kinda fun to explore. And I'm always amused that we think we can intelligently discuss an issue that 80% of the world agrees is 'unknowable' and can only be understood via blind faith in a supreme being.

Cocky bunch of people, ain't we?

:)
SMW

The answer would seem to be, that there was never "nothing."

Time could curve to the point that something was taken from a future point,
creating an invisible, or indivisible, line between the beginning and the end.
The acting force could have been that which occurs at the end of a cycle.

It could be as simple as what we view as the beginning of a sun is the reverse side of blackhole.

I'm no Egyptologist, SMW, but I think I remember reading somewhere that their ( the Egyptians) entire earthly lives where spent in preparation for the Afterlife. And if you didn't have a proper burial, that was it for you!!



LOL, if I were a god, I'd prob be able to spell....

LOL, Ren... don't sweat it. Let's just say the devil made ya do it!

But what happened the day before "always been?"

That's the part I don't get.
You just drained the collective intelligence of this thread with that comment.

"Always been" means just that, always been. That means nothing came before.

ShadowWalker seems to have a pet peeve of people referring to the Judeo-Christian deity as he. I'm still trying to determine what his damage is.


Pet peeve, I hate the word, as I hate hell, all gripes...

No, not really in the framing, more in, as the old adage says : say what you mean, and mean what you say.

Or the more current one: listen cautiously, because I choose my words carefully and I do not repeat myself.

Not to much in the vain as that of the grammar police, kudos to the admin and mods for keeping their ilk at bay, ‘tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and outburst of syntactical atrocities, than to sleep in comfort of utterly linguistical elation. Not to mention if you’re a Ghost in the Shell fan, you might consider your auto-correct features, as communications from beyond.

But seriously, back to the point, it is generally ‘believed’ that the concept of ‘God’ revolves around the masculine, indifferent to religion. And if not the masculine, then some form of the feminine. Yet, doesn’t every single concept of ‘God’ involve a trait exterior to that of humanity? I was at a convention years ago, and heard a ‘yes there is’, ‘not there is not’ conversation, and they both keep saying ‘he’. While the status of ‘fiction’ and ‘non-fiction’ was in contention, the ‘he’ was agreed upon. Isn’t that just, well, bizarre?

As to the concept of where did all the energy in the universe come from yada yada - it's probably unlikely that we could even comprehend it, so I think its best to leave it as a mystery. If people want to assign it to God and use examples of how the universe works as proof then that's fine.

As to the concept of where did all the energy in the universe come from yada yada - it's probably unlikely that we could even comprehend it, so I think its best to leave it as a mystery. If people want to assign it to God and use examples of how the universe works as proof then that's fine.


Yes, how the universe works is proof of God to many people; one would also have to consider that many things did not work and are no where to be found now. There is a lot of space debris floating around out there, I wonder what this is proof of?