At least 18 Palestinians have been killed and 40 wounded by Israeli tank fire in the Northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6127250.stm

It always makes me sad to hear or read stories like this one.

Why aren't you posting any articles about palestinian rocket attacks on israel?

at least they didnt use cluster bombs!

Why aren't you posting any articles about palestinian rocket attacks on israel?

Those don't count - remember? The Palestinians are always in a defense mode toward the attacking Israelies. There are so many more Jews than there are Muslims. Israel runs rampant through the mid-east whenever it cares to, killing indiscriminately ... not at all like the peace loving and humble Muslims. Oh no.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Waldo- if your so concerned feel free to post it here or start a new thread. Right now you're just trying to be an annoying prick.

Both sides are guilty of killing innocent people. Israel has just killed many, many more people in a systematic manner. Its easy to hold Israelis accountable for their mass murder, The US just doesn't want it to happen. Its a bit harder to hold Palestinian terrorists accountable, but Israel is satisfied murdering innocent ones.

How Israel put Gaza civilians in firing line

Military chiefs were warned that change of safety margin for gunners risked killing the innocent

Peter Beaumont, foreign affairs editor
Sunday November 12, 2006
The Observer


Israeli military commanders drastically reduced the 'safety' margins that separate artillery targets from the built-up civilian areas of Gaza earlier this year, despite being warned that the new policy risked increasing Palestinian civilian deaths and injuries, The Observer can reveal.

The warning, delivered in Israel's high court by six human rights groups, came after the Israeli Defence Force reduced the so-called 'safety range' in Gaza from a 300-metre separation from built-up areas to just 100 metres - within the kill radius of its 155mm high-explosive shells, generally regarded as being between 50 and 150 metres.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1945798,00.html

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Waldo- if your so concerned feel free to post it here or start a new thread. Right now you're just trying to be an annoying prick.

Both sides are guilty of killing innocent people. Israel has just killed many, many more people in a systematic manner. Its easy to hold Israelis accountable for their mass murder, The US just doesn't want it to happen. Its a bit harder to hold Palestinian terrorists accountable, but Israel is satisfied murdering innocent ones.

i'm a prick because i point out that he's only telling us one side of the story? :rolleyes: Your capacity to amaze seems endless.

Why exactly does israel want to gratuitously kill palestinians? Do you think they get their jollies from that? It gives them some type of moral satisfaction? Some type of sadistic satisfaction? To what end would they wish to perpetuate the current situation? In what way is it to their benefit?

We should just nuke them all so they stop killing each other.

Why exactly does israel want to gratuitously kill palestinians?

It is their mission in life. They hate the Palestinians, they want them gone so they can have all of Israel to themselves, hence they carry out a campaign of genocide against them.

Do you think they get their jollies from that?

Yes.

It gives them some type of moral satisfaction?

YES.

Some type of sadistic satisfaction?

For some of them, ...yes. I would certainly say that it does.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. — Blaise Pascal

To what end would they wish to perpetuate the current situation? In what way is it to their benefit?

Do you mean the 'situation' of their current campaign to eliminate the Palestinian people from the face of the earth?

If so, the answer is ----- 100% habitation of and control of Israel.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. — Blaise Pascal
Boy, I guess it's a good thing the Palestinians (much less, the entire fucking region) aren't/isn't motivated by their religious convictions, ay?

Actually, come to think about it - I bet you'd get along with Borat quite well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGrmN3MsJPQ

There are religous psychos in both camps.... I saw a gay parade from Jerusalem in the news, where the homosexuals had to stop the parade because of orthodox jews mounting a violent counter-demonstration against them and there was a $25.000 ransom for anyone who killed a homosexual. Same tune from some pakistani muslims a month or so ago. Same shit, different religion.

Boy, I guess it's a good thing the Palestinians (much less, the entire fucking region) aren't/isn't motivated by their religious convictions, ay?

I am well aware --you nattering twit -- that both sides are motivated by their religious convictions. It's just that the Israelis are so much more efficient in their killing.

waldo asked questions about the Israelis and their wants and motivations....I was simply answering him.

We should just nuke them all so they stop killing each other.
haha you might be on to something.

hold that thought.

I am well aware --you nattering twit -- that both sides are motivated by their religious convictions. It's just that the Israelis are so much more efficient in their killing.
So if the shoe were on the other foot, you'd have a problem with the Palestinians and not the Israelis....?

Interesting.

Well, at least you're consistent....

i'm a prick because i point out that he's only telling us one side of the story? ...perhaps prick was the wrong word, how about whiney bitch? Accurate enough for you?

Everyone knows both sides are killing innocent people. If you are upset about this one post an opposing one, don't just whine about it.

It is their mission in life. They hate the Palestinians, they want them gone so they can have all of Israel to themselves, hence they carry out a campaign of genocide against them.



Yes.



YES.



For some of them, ...yes. I would certainly say that it does.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. — Blaise Pascal



Do you mean the 'situation' of their current campaign to eliminate the Palestinian people from the face of the earth?

If so, the answer is ----- 100% habitation of and control of Israel.


Wow about sums it up. You are a piece of work aren't you.

Why not tell us what you really want to say. Do you have the stones to do it?

...perhaps prick was the wrong word, how about whiney bitch? Accurate enough for you?

Everyone knows both sides are killing innocent people. If you are upset about this one post an opposing one, don't just whine about it.

Posting something on the opposite doesn't really do much. It just perpetuates the type of nonsense that's going already going on when paul posts his crap.

Wow about sums it up.

Thank you. I'm glad you appreciate hearing the truth.



Why not tell us what you really want to say. Do you have the stones to do it?

In the post of mine that you just referenced, I did exactly that.

Posting something on the opposite doesn't really do much. It just perpetuates the type of nonsense that's going already going on when paul posts his crap.What did paul post that was crap?

What did paul post that was crap?

Some uncomfortable truth about Israel, no doubt.

I dont understand why people like freethinker dont understand that if israel really did want all of the palestininians dead they would all be dead by now. Its not through Palestininian pride and bravery that they still exist.
anyway, I remember seeing this story on the news the other day, the anchor said "18 palestininians were killed by israeli sheling in Unpronouncable today". I kept waiting for the rest of the story but that was it. I remember thinking how that was the kind of shit the Frethinkers of the world thrive on. Stories of Israelies killing Jews for no apparent reason. I am sure Freethinker would like me to beiev Israel just started shelling some random palesinian town for no reason, bu tI know they dont operate like that. In fact, its the palestinians and their hamas brothers who are the ones who target indisciminatly yet somehow that seems to get overlooked. it is very frustrating how 2 sides fighting the same war against each other are expected to play by different rules, and how people like freethinker can sit there with a straight face and denounce israel but not the palesininians

Ah Trav...We can always count on you to announce your worthless opinion based on less then half the story...Your advertized ignorence is astounding.

In fact, its the palestinians and their hamas brothers who are the ones who target indisciminatly yet somehow that seems to get overlooked. So then you admit that Israel intentionally targets civilians, thanks.

I think everyone on the forum agrees that both groups are in the wrong regardless of how the conflict started. Israel has committed atrocities as did the Palestinians. As Kofi Annan states "As long as the Palestinians live under occupation, exposed to daily frustration and humiliation, and as long as Israelis are blown up in buses and in dance halls, so long will passions everywhere be inflamed." We should really stop playing the blame game and find a solution to the conflict instead.

That's a very good post, Googs, but I have a feeling that the only solution lies with the state of Israel being "wiped off the map". The whole region hates them, and why....because (let's face it) they're not a Muslim nation, period.

Well thats just the thing...

the Palestinians as a whole have had numerous cease-fires they respected. Isreal has never done such. They always call it a 'cease fire' while still killing, detaining and harrassing Palestinians.

Now blame has nothing to do with creating peace. I think many people are willing to put such things behind in the name of a better future. However it is Israel that has most of the power in this situtation and they seem to not want peace.

That's a very good post, Googs, but I have a feeling that the only solution lies with the state of Israel being "wiped off the map". The whole region hates them, and why....because (let's face it) they're not a Muslim nation, period.

I disagree.

First, the Iranian president said the Zionist regime should be wiped of the map and not the country, Israel.

Second, to generalize the whole muslim population and tie their views to that of extreme Muslims is wrong and ignorant. I don't share the same views as those extreme Muslims. Most Muslims don't share the same views of Muslim extremists.

Third, Palestinian Muslims aren't the only ones being occupied by Israel. There are Palestinians that are Christian too.

Lastly, this is the kind of attitude that keeps people from coming up with a solutions to this everlasting conflict. To put the blame on one group and free the other of any responsibility isn't going to solve anything. It's a continuing cycle. Israel occupies the Palestinian territories. They set up roadblocks at every corner. They continually live in frustration. Palestinians dread everyday of their lives. Israeli's live with a fear of being targetted by Palestinian militants. Either by sucide bombers or rocket attacks. Choosing one side isn't going to solve this problem. All I see are accusations coming from both sides and their supporters. But I'm not going to sit here and lie to you. I do believe Israel bears most of the responsibility of the conflict. And I also believe America has a large part in fueling this conflict.

BTW should I mention that Israel funded Hamas into being. They were worried of a unified secular Arab movement. Israel is responsible for the religious fanaticism in some Palestinian independance groups.

Ah Trav...We can always count on you to announce your worthless opinion based on less then half the story...Your advertized ignorence is astounding.

oh sorry, I guess I better follow your lead, "Israel is mean!" STFU dumbass. At least I have an opinion, all you are is a broken record of regurgitated internet "facts". "I beter copy and paste another article form jewsareevil.com!"

IDF admits targeting civilian areas in Lebanon with cluster bombs
from:Jewsareevil.com

Oh wait did I say Jewsareevil I meant Ha'aretz - Israels #1 newspaper.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/789876.html

I bet if theat same newspaper denied it happened you wouldnt believe them. Another example of left wing selective belief.

I bet no matter what I posted you would act like that stick up your ass couldn't possibly be shoved up any further.

I bet if theat same newspaper denied it happened you wouldnt believe them. Another example of left wing selective belief.


You sir, are the epitome of conservative ideology;

Whenever confronted by well documented, factual information (for instance, the link to the Ha'aretz article in 500lb's last post) that you have no refutation for whatsoever, but that you do not like, it causes you extreme discomfort.

Was off awhile there. Sorry guys, especially you waldo, for not being a blind right wing bigot, was thinking of trying it, but I just couldnt sleep at nite. Just for you I will post somethinf on how bad things are for the Israelis compared to the Pals.
PS. Do you have a link for the IDF in Jerusalem by any chance.

What would be more useful would be posting any signs that that the palestinians have the capability of acting rationally. When they begin to show signs of that particular character trait on a national basis then their situation might improve. As long as they continue to act irrationally their situation will only deteriorate.

Theres too many conflicting influences in the Palestinian people for them to act rationally as one voice, that shows what a good job the Israeli war machine has done on them. This also shows that it is the duty of the International community to resolve their plight on their behalf. The main benefactor of doing that would be the US, who unfortunatly has sided squarely on the side of Israel.

Translation. The palestinians don't know what they want nor how to get it so somebody, anybody, please, come save them from themselves.

You sir, are the epitome of conservative ideology;

Whenever confronted by well documented, factual information (for instance, the link to the Ha'aretz article in 500lb's last post) that you have no refutation for whatsoever, but that you do not like, it causes you extreme discomfort.

Its just strange that someone can both believe and not believe the right wing media based on what they are saying, thats all. It doesnt take big brains from cyberland like freethinker and 500lbguerilla to see your hypocrisy. You believe what you want to believe. Well documented things that you dont believe are crap concocted by reichwing amerikkkuh, well documented things you want to believe are the cold hard truth right wing amerikkkuh is afraid of.

Translation. The palestinians don't know what they want nor how to get it so somebody, anybody, please, come save them from themselves.
I think youll find that the Palestinians want their home back and for the Israelis to either make a fair deal with them or fuck off.
As they havnt got a single voice to speak with, its kinda difficult for them to speak,its also very handy if you have the worlds most powerful nation throwing money and weapons technology at you for free.

what is a fair deal? all the jews jump off a cliff and leave all they have for them to plunder?

no. a fair deal is giving the Pals a bit of ground to live decent lives on,insteaded of being herded like sheep as they are now.

Don't you understand that the "Pals" won't be happy until all the Jews are dead and buried? NOBODY IN THE ENTIRE REGION WANTS THEM THERE, and it has nothing to do with the Israelis being "unfair" to them. There is no peaceful coexistence with a group of people who'd lop your head off in a nanosecond if they thought you believed in a different god. This "conflict" (for lack of a better word) isn't over the Jews being unjust - it's over a fundamental religious belief that states unequivocally if anyone of a different creed lives on "holy land", then they’re to be converted by scimitar if necessary.

If thats your opinion, who was the damn fool who gave the green light to the creation of Israel in the first place.

That would be your enemy - the Brits circa 1948.

Don't you understand that the "Pals" won't be happy until all the Jews are dead and buried? NOBODY IN THE ENTIRE REGION WANTS THEM THERE, and it has nothing to do with the Israelis being "unfair" to them. There is no peaceful coexistence with a group of people who'd lop your head off in a nanosecond if they thought you believed in a different god. This "conflict" (for lack of a better word) isn't over the Jews being unjust - it's over a fundamental religious belief that states unequivocally if anyone of a different creed lives on "holy land", then they’re to be converted by scimitar if necessary.


Personally, I don't think you understand the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict. I don't think anyone person that hasn't lived in or been to Israel or the Palestinian territories has any idea or understanding of the conflict and the toll it has on the people involved. Furthermore, Prae, you continue to confuse Palestinians as Muslims only. When in reality, there are Palestinian Christians. Also, its not Jews being unjust, it's the Israeli government.

Personally, I don't think you understand the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict. I don't think anyone person that hasn't lived in or been to Israel or the Palestinian territories has any idea or understanding of the conflict and the toll it has on the people involved.
Perhaps. I just know what I've seen, albeit my knowledge on the subject is minimal.
Furthermore, Prae, you continue to confuse Palestinians as Muslims only. When in reality, there are Palestinian Christians. Also, its not Jews being unjust, it's the Israeli government.
Would you say Christian Palestinians represent the majority in Lebanon, and if not, then what are we talking about here?

That aside, I fail to see the difference between "the Israeli government" and the Jewish people living in Israel. Aren't they one in the same? If not, then maybe you can tell me who runs the Israeli government, because I'm at a loss.

That would be your enemy - the Brits circa 1948.
Damn right.
Fucked everything up.
Palestine, Iraq, Sunny Ireland, Cyprus..............to name but a few.

Perhaps. I just know what I've seen, albeit my knowledge on the subject is minimal.

I think everyone in American can agree that there is a bias in the media, whether it's left or right bias. It just matters what you're viewing.

Would you say Christian Palestinians represent the majority in Lebanon?

No, but I'm saying they get the same treatment as Palestinian Muslims. It's not only Muslims living under the occupation, there are Christians too. Christians in Palestine always seem to have no voice in the conflict. It's made to seem as if it is Jews v. Muslims.

That aside, I fail to see the difference between "the Israeli government" and the Jewish people living in Israel. Aren't they one in the same? If not, then maybe you can tell me who runs the Israeli government, because I'm at a loss for understanding your point.

Israel doesn't mean Jew. As I stated before, the government of a country doesn't neccesarliy reflect the opinions of their own citizens. There are many Jews that have protested the Israeli government and their policies in Gaza and the West Bank. Also, there are some Arabs in the Israeli government.

Damn right.
Fucked everything up.
Palestine, Iraq, Sunny Ireland, Cyprus..............to name but a few.
Oh, the Brits aren't that bad, Paul. Hell, I kind of like 'em (even though they look at America like the fat red-headed stepchild of England, but whatever - they're a bunch of ballsy motherfuckers - which isn't exactly a bad thing in my book ;)).

I know, I know, they fucked over Ireland and Scotland pretty good, but I don't think their intentions were all that bad. Besides, it's 2006 - isn't it time to let it go???

Oddly enough, I dont mind them either,I lived in London for a couple of tears, and had a great time. My brother in law is a Brit,from the same place as our very own Brit Drew. Their so easy to wind up, ya know.
Also, its a gip with a jag, its my duty to remind them of their past.

Damn right.
Fucked everything up.
Palestine, Iraq, Sunny Ireland, Cyprus..............to name but a few.

US, Australia, NZ, India have turned out quite nicely. Rhodiesia and SA, apart from the apartheid did well for awhile as well.

US, Australia, NZ, India have turned out quite nicely. Rhodiesia and SA, apart from the apartheid did well for awhile as well.
You forgot Hong Kong - and look where they are; that's BIG cash.

US, Australia, NZ, India have turned out quite nicely. Rhodiesia and SA, apart from the apartheid did well for awhile as well.

And Canada. Oh wait, nevermind. ;)

You forgot Hong Kong - and look where they are; that's BIG cash.
Behold the flat tax!

US, Australia, NZ, India have turned out quite nicely. Rhodiesia and SA, apart from the apartheid did well for awhile as well.
whats your point waldo,the US was built by immigrants and their desendants after independance.
The 600 million Indians who live in poverty would laugh at your statement.
Rhodesia was built on the same system the good old boys of the South used, cheap black labour.
South Africa done the same,only,lucky them,sat on the biggest gold deposit ever found,so they could finance themselves while the majority of their people lived in poverty.
New Zealand has a slightly below average economy for its size.
Australia has got itself into tourism,business and yet another one whos money was from its mineral deposits.
All these countrys wealths would have been sucked out of them if they had remained under British control,some, Australia,NZ,and lately SA are members of the British Commonwealth,but that only an old boys club with illusions of a bygone age.

whats your point waldo,the US was built by immigrants and their desendants after independance.
Yeah, with a blueprint neatly furnished for us BY the British.
The 600 million Indians who live in poverty would laugh at your statement.
600 MILLION!?! Holy shit, we really did wipe 'em out, didn't we? :eek:
South Africa done the same,only,lucky them,sat on the biggest gold deposit ever found,so they could finance themselves while the majority of their people lived in poverty.
You forgot rubber trees. Oh, and what area outside south Africa DOESN'T live in poverty (that's IN Africa, of course)?
New Zealand has a slightly below average economy for its size.
And it's growing every year - check out their electronics and appliances industry.
Australia has got itself into tourism,business and yet another one whos money was from its mineral deposits.
Not entirely true - they're a banking and finance powerhouse.
All these countrys wealths would have been sucked out of them if they had remained under British control
Undoubtedly true. I mean, after all, that's what the Brits do well.

600 MILLION!?! Holy shit, we really did wipe 'em out, didn't we? :eek:I don't think he meant those Indians.

Ooooooh, he meant the dot-headed kind! - yeah, I guess that makes more sense, doesn't it? :)

That aside, they haven't done all that much since the English left, have they? They're just coming on line now, and due to their trade with countries like the US and Britain, they'll be an economic powerhouse in probably less than 50 years. All in all, I'd say they're doing pretty well BECAUSE of us.

You wont be saying that when they start nicking all the IT jobs from europe and america.

You wont be saying that when they start nicking all the IT jobs from europe and america.
True, but IT jobs are only one portion of the equation. There are many ways to skin a cat, my friend.

Thats true.I will tell you the few good things Britain left Ireland:
Civil Service,the British one is still used to this day.
The English language.
Unfortunatly neither was introduced to benefit the Irish, just control them,until the early 19th centurey,speaking irish was a hanging offence.

You wont be saying that when they start nicking all the IT jobs from europe and america.

Start?? It's already going on.

until the early 19th centurey,speaking irish was a hanging offence.
:eek:

Come to think of it, it's too bad we can't make speaking Spanish a hanging offense in the early 21st century.

Come to think of it, it's too bad we can't make speaking Spanish a hanging offense in the early 21st century.

Or having an Archie Bunker-ish worldview.

This neatly encapsulates the arab mind.
It's an inteview with the editor of al-jazeera. The previous questions were about the future of the ME which the editor described as bleak. Asked who he blamed for that he says.


Who is responsible for the situation?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer. The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems. The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

I think so.

Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with these problems?

The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.

In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

Exactly. It's because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West's problem is that it does not understand this.

Clearly the arab problem is not israel's fault, its with their own perspective of the world and their place in it. With a mindset like that he's right, arabs are doomed.

Here's the entire interview. http://www.worldpoliticswatch.com/article.aspx?id=395

Yea the Arab problem is not the Israelis fault,just the Palestinian one.

Or having an Archie Bunker-ish worldview.
What's this? Bleeding heart liberal FT reveals his true desires!

Ooooooh, he meant the dot-headed kind! - yeah, I guess that makes more sense, doesn't it? :)
Dear god Prae, I can't believe you actually thought he meant Native Americans.
That aside, they haven't done all that much since the English left, have they? They're just coming on line now, and due to their trade with countries like the US and Britain, they'll be an economic powerhouse in probably less than 50 years. All in all, I'd say they're doing pretty well BECAUSE of us.
They already are an economic powerhouse, and will overtake Japan and America soon, fighting with China in a matter of a few decades.
You wont be saying that when they start nicking all the IT jobs from europe and america.
No, I'll still say that, because in 30 years I'll still be saying that India is doing well because of it's trading power in the world market, which includes the USA and EU.

Yea the Arab problem is not the Israelis fault,just the Palestinian one.
Last time i checked palestinians are arabs. As such they are equally infected with the same mindset. When the palestinians are more concerned about their feelings on an issue as opposed to any rational thought process about what is good for them there seems little hope of making progress.

Cmon waldo, are you telling me the Palestinians are better off under the Israelis than they would be ruling themselves,I find that hard to believe, even tho they do seem to fight each other a lot.

Dear god Prae, I can't believe you actually thought he meant Native Americans.
Yeah, unfortunately I was stoned when I responded, but Paul's lack of punctuation sometimes makes it difficult to determine what he's talking about if you don't actually take the time to make sense of it yourself. That said, it was a pretty stupid mistake (mea culpa), but where would the Allforums community be without a sniveling little grammar fag who voluntarily takes the minutes of the meeting with a righteous hard-on for slip-ups?

Gee, I guess all I'm trying to say is I just appreciate the fuck outta you, Evak.

Cheers, little man.

:eek:
Come to think of it, it's too bad we can't make speaking Spanish a hanging offense in the early 21st century.

I still wonder if my theory of what happened to you long time ago is a true fact.

but where would the Allforums community be without a sniveling little grammar fag who voluntarily takes the minutes of the meeting with a righteous hard-on for slip-ups?

Gee, I guess all I'm trying to say is I just appreciate the fuck outta you, Evak.

Cheers, little man.
Why do you do this?

Why do you do this?
Why do you feel the need to correct people? Or point out their errors, for that matter?

I still wonder if my theory of what happened to you long time ago is a true fact.
Refresh my memory.

Why do you feel the need to correct people? Or point out their errors, for that matter?
My habit of doing that is constructive, your habit of being purposely offensive is destructive.

Besides, I neither corrected you, nor was my issue with your grammar.

Prae, the phrase you were looking for is "grammar nazi", and the term you substituted is not appreciated.

Cmon waldo, are you telling me the Palestinians are better off under the Israelis than they would be ruling themselves,I find that hard to believe, even tho they do seem to fight each other a lot.

No. I'm saying that they are irrational. Everyone and their grandmother wants to give them a state. That it's not what they want or need for their self-image leads them into self-destructive behaviour which they turn around and blame on the israelis and the west.

I think anyone looking at the conditions the Palestinian people live in would feel outraged.It is the responsibility of the Israelis to provide some sort of 'hope' for these people,not brick them in,and isolate them.Unfortunatly,it looks like history repeating itself,the Israelis above all,should know that you dont do that.I think the Palestinians do want freedom,but are unable to work as one to achieve it,too many outside interests from other Muslim countrys,to allow that to happen.

Prae, the phrase you were looking for is "grammar nazi", and the term you substituted is not appreciated.
I didn't mean it like that, Vile (even though I poke fun at him for being a touch androgynous, I know he's not gay (Come to find out, I took his PM's out of context awhile back – once again, mea culpa…)).

When I was growing up, everyone called everyone else a "fag". Now, I realize that's obviously not very endearing, but by the same token, I hope you realize that it's not meant to be literal (nor is it meant to single out gay people, for that matter). I'm sorry you find it offensive, and I'll refrain from using it in the future. Please accept my sincerest apology -

J

bythewaywhatswrongwithmypunctutionmac

Nothing.

It's flawless.

I think anyone looking at the conditions the Palestinian people live in would feel outraged.It is the responsibility of the Israelis to provide some sort of 'hope' for these people,not brick them in,and isolate them.Unfortunatly,it looks like history repeating itself,the Israelis above all,should know that you dont do that.I think the Palestinians do want freedom,but are unable to work as one to achieve it,too many outside interests from other Muslim countrys,to allow that to happen.

What is the paallies responsibility in all this? You keep blaming the israelis but it takes two to tango. The pallies have responsibilities too. What are they?

The pallies are the ones in need, you'd think they'd get organized and agree on a program before approaching the israelis. Exactly who are the israelis supposed to deal with given the multitude of factions and objectives?

I dont see how you can pin the Pals down to any responsibility at the minute,their community is in total disarray.The Pal Authority are trying to form some sense of unifying voice,but like I said earlier,too many outsiders have split the Pal camp into numerous factions.
Israeli aggression hinders rather than helps the Pal Authority.
You would think their using the 'divide and doninate' theory.

You can't absolve the palestinians of responsibility. They are also authors of their own situation.
They've been in disarray for the last 15 years. From the moment the Oslo peace accords were signed and the Palestinian Authority was created and arafat returned there has been a steady and consistent rise in violence in the west bank and gaza. Do you think there is some type of correlation there?Has israel played apart, for sure, but the larger part has been played by the palesitinians themselves.
Do you think Israel signed the Oslo accords so they could further oppress the palestinians? To what end? Israel won the wars. They are in a position to take whatever they want. Do you honestly think its in their own interest to be under constant attack? You'd have to believe that the israelis are different from every other human on the face of the planet.
The Palestinians need to accept responsibility for their situation. They need to grow up and get on with it.

I agree in part to what you say,the Pals arent being very constructive,they would achieve more as one voice,but at the same time,Israel has built its security at the expense of Pal living conditions.