Which is trump: Truth or success?

Without a question, there is no doubt.

Truth is what is, no matter what humans may desire. Truth will, in the end, win out.

When we are dealing with humans, short term success is often divorced from truth. Human will, can be easily manipulated; politicians and business managers have become expert at manipulating human will.

A current glaring example is the Iraq war. If the war was a success, in American terms, few Americans would care about the truth of the matter. Whether the war caused 600,000 or 30,000 dead Iraqis is of little concern. Only when success is not achieved is the truth of the matter in question.

I think that we are always better off, in the long run, if we value truth more than success. Preparing our self to recognize truth is a long, arduous, and many splendored task; it is well worth the effort. Do you agree?

It's a philosophical question to be sure, and the way you pose the question it would appear that you have to make a choice of some sort.

We value truth (most of us anyway), and we need success in order to pay the bills and put groceries on the table.

I hold the belief that truth (and integrity) is paramount, and that success will surely follow those who live their lives with integrity. In other words, truth and success are not mutually exclusive.
(Except in politics, of course.)
:cool:

People with success dictate truth. Other people listen to success. They do not listen to truth. Truth dictates what is successful or not. So those with success, have truth, as the collective unconscious would say. It would seem at first glance that truth is more powerful than success, but that is a wrong categorization. Truth is only as powerful as people's ability to see it is. Most people cannot see truth.

People with success dictate truth. Other people listen to success. They do not listen to truth. Truth dictates what is successful or not. So those with success, have truth, as the collective unconscious would say. It would seem at first glance that truth is more powerful than success, but that is a wrong categorization. Truth is only as powerful as people's ability to see it is. Most people cannot see truth.

Truth itself will make the judgment. For example, if it is true what science says about global warming, then in 100 years truth will provide the answer? If we should ignore that truth then we and the whole planet will be forced to deal with truth, with reality. We may be successful for a while by ignoring what is true but eventually reality will prevail. But truth is not an easy thing to apprehend. The question is will we make the effort to prepare our self for the arduous task of recognizing truth before it kicks out our teeth.

Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as ‘truth’, merely perception with a certain degree of clarity. I would equally imagine that ‘success’ falls within the same category. For example, was the Greek civilization successful? On one hand, it collapsed, and was replaced by the Roman Empire, an obvious strike against. Yet, large portions of the Roman civilization were based upon Greek ideas, an obvious strike for. So sadly, I imagine, we will have to ask the civilizations that replace the current ones, if they were a ‘success’ or not.

Which is trump: Truth or success?
Depends upon whether or not success is seen through personal definition or wordly definition. Either way there are many ways to be successful. Truth may have an ultimate in certain situations but not in others.

It must then come down to one's values and given situations.

There are two types of 'truth', factually derived truth and opinion based truth. Many people mistake the second for the first. Factual truth resides in logic, opinion truth is emotionally arisen. Ideas such as values, morals, ethics, beliefs, and religions are clear examples of opinion based truth. Ideas such as statistics, scientific findings, descriptions of events, methods of achievement are all factually derived truths. The difference is that factually derived truths have a trait called veracity, they can be proven to be more or less descriptive of their subjects. The analogous trait to veracity in opinion-based truths is power, their capability to influence and move people.

Pure logic does not have the capacity to move people, no matter how 'true' it is. Pure emotion can move people, but it lacks direction. Opinion-based truth has a tendancy to corrupt the minds of those wielding it, as goes the saying, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Neither type of truth has any greater claim to being more 'true' than the other. God is not more true than Science nor is the converse accurate. They are simply different ways of looking at ideas, that have different pitfalls and strengths.

"Which is trump: Truth or success?"

Let's say you are taking a girl out and hope to get lucky. She asks you if you like her dress. You don't! Do you tell the truth? Whoops that a real world question, so let's revert to philosophy.

I have to answer the question by first asking a question. How are we to define truth and how are we to define success? (OK I cheated, that's really two questions.)

There is truth as I perceive it, truth as you perceive it and then there is probably the real truth. It really is like a couple of blind people trying to establish the mating habits of an elephant by feeling the trunk. :)

Defining success is equally difficult. For a person in isolation, playing a game or trying to accomplish a task, the definition is easy. You either win or lose, complete the task or not. You cannot lie to yourself.
If others are involved, the situation is quite different. You may complete the task to your satisfaction, i.e. success, yet failed to meet their requirements, thus failure. Obviously one needs a prior definition of satisfactory completion. As the tasks get more complicated, so does trying to define the criteria for success. Ultimately the definition gets so complicated that lawyers are necessary to decipher what the definitions actually mean. It becomes bad enough when we are dealing with physical examples that can be measures and tested against defined criteria.

If it is a nebulous task, say establishing Medicare or Unemployment, how does one define success in such cases? To start with there is the always the problem of unintended consequences. Even if you win (succeed), you may lose eventually. Similarly, you may not completely succeed, yet many may benefit. Is that failure?

Let's say you are taking a girl out and hope to get lucky. She asks you if you like her dress. You don't! Do you tell the truth?

"Sweetie, if that dress made you look any fatter, we'd need a panoramic camera to take the pictures with."

"Babe, you should probably stop getting your dresses from the pawn shop. There's a reason those grease traps are so cheap."

"Honey, that shower curtain you have on looks wonderful. Is it flame retardant too?"

Guaranteed to get you laid.

LOL, now, what do you say when she asks, "Honey, do these jeans make my butt look fat?"

A wise person will avoid the truth at all costs if he wishes to be successful in this matter..........

"Babe, why do you have to mess with me like that? Take all the cottage cheese out of there."

"I'm really surprised that you could cram your elephant ass in there. Oh, did you have a question?"

"I'm really surprised that you could cram your elephant ass in there. Oh, did you have a question?"
Gold.

Thank you guys, I'll be here all week.