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Socialist
11-03-2006, 11:58 AM
The Strange Death Of Liberal America

This should be read by all:

Why have American liberals acquiesced in President Bush’s catastrophic foreign policy? Why have they so little to say about Iraq, about Lebanon, or about reports of a planned attack on Iran? Why has the administration’s sustained attack on civil liberties and international law aroused so little opposition or anger from those who used to care most about these things? Why, in short, has the liberal intelligentsia of the United States in recent years kept its head safely below the parapet?
It wasn’t always so. On 26 October 1988, the New York Times carried a full-page advertisement for liberalism. Headed ‘A Reaffirmation of Principle’, it openly rebuked Ronald Reagan for deriding ‘the dreaded L-word’ and treating ‘liberals’ and ‘liberalism’ as terms of opprobrium. Liberal principles, the text affirmed, are ‘timeless. Extremists of the right and of the left have long attacked liberalism as their greatest enemy. In our own time liberal democracies have been crushed by such extremists. Against any encouragement of this tendency in our own country, intentional or not, we feel obliged to speak out.’
The advertisement was signed by 63 prominent intellectuals, writers and businessmen: among them Daniel Bell, J.K. Galbraith, Felix Rohatyn, Arthur Schlesinger Jr, Irving Howe and Eudora Welty. These and other signatories – the economist Kenneth Arrow, the poet Robert Penn Warren – were the critical intellectual core, the steady moral centre of American public life. But who, now, would sign such a protest? Liberalism in the United States today is the politics that dares not speak its name. And those who style themselves ‘liberal intellectuals’ are otherwise engaged. As befits the new Gilded Age, in which the pay ratio of an American CEO to that of a skilled worker is 412:1 and a corrupted Congress is awash in lobbies and favours, the place of the liberal intellectual has been largely taken over by an admirable cohort of ‘muck-raking’ investigative journalists – Seymour Hersh, Michael Massing and Mark Danner, writing in the New Yorker and the New York Review of Books.
The collapse of liberal self-confidence in the contemporary US can be variously explained. In part it is a backwash from the lost illusions of the 1960s generation, a retreat from the radical nostrums of youth into the all-consuming business of material accumulation and personal security. The signatories of the New York Times advertisement were born in most cases many years earlier, their political opinions shaped by the 1930s above all. Their commitments were the product of experience and adversity and made of sterner stuff. The disappearance of the liberal centre in American politics is also a direct outcome of the deliquescence of the Democratic Party. In domestic politics liberals once believed in the provision of welfare, good government and social justice. In foreign affairs they had a longstanding commitment to international law, negotiation, and the importance of moral example. Today, a spreading me-first consensus has replaced vigorous public debate in both arenas. And like their political counterparts, the critical intelligentsia once so prominent in American cultural life has fallen silent.
This process was well underway before 11 September 2001, and in domestic affairs at least, Bill Clinton and his calculated policy ‘triangulations’ must carry some responsibility for the evisceration of liberal politics. But since then the moral and intellectual arteries of the American body politic have hardened further. Magazines and newspapers of the traditional liberal centre – the New Yorker, the New Republic, the Washington Post and the New York Times itself – fell over themselves in the hurry to align their editorial stance with that of a Republican president bent on exemplary war. A fearful conformism gripped the mainstream media. And America’s liberal intellectuals found at last a new cause.
Or, rather, an old cause in a new guise. For what distinguishes the worldview of Bush’s liberal supporters from that of his neo-conservative allies is that they don’t look on the ‘War on Terror’, or the war in Iraq, or the war in Lebanon and eventually Iran, as mere serial exercises in the re-establishment of American martial dominance. They see them as skirmishes in a new global confrontation: a Good Fight, reassuringly comparable to their grandparents’ war against Fascism and their Cold War liberal parents’ stance against international Communism. Once again, they assert, things are clear. The world is ideologically divided; and – as before – we must take our stand on the issue of the age. Long nostalgic for the comforting verities of a simpler time, today’s liberal intellectuals have at last discovered a sense of purpose: they are at war with ‘Islamo-fascism’.
Thus Paul Berman, a frequent contributor to Dissent, the New Yorker and other liberal journals, and until now better known as a commentator on American cultural affairs, recycled himself as an expert on Islamic fascism (itself a new term of art), publishing Terror and Liberalism just in time for the Iraq war. Peter Beinart, a former editor of the New Republic, followed in his wake this year with The Good Fight: Why Liberals – and Only Liberals – Can Win the War on Terror and Make America Great Again, where he sketches at some length the resemblance between the War on Terror and the early Cold War.[1] Neither author had previously shown any familiarity with the Middle East, much less with the Wahhabi and Sufi traditions on which they pronounce with such confidence.
But like Christopher Hitchens and other former left-liberal pundits now expert in ‘Islamo-fascism’, Beinart and Berman and their kind really are conversant – and comfortable – with a binary division of the world along ideological lines. In some cases they can even look back to their own youthful Trotskyism when seeking a template and thesaurus for world-historical antagonisms. In order for today’s ‘fight’ (note the recycled Leninist lexicon of conflicts, clashes, struggles and wars) to make political sense, it too must have a single universal enemy whose ideas we can study, theorise and combat; and the new confrontation must be reducible, like its 20th-century predecessor, to a familiar juxtaposition that eliminates exotic complexity and confusion: Democracy v. Totalitarianism, Freedom v. Fascism, Them v. Us.
To be sure, Bush’s liberal supporters have been disappointed by his efforts. Every newspaper I have listed and many others besides have carried editorials criticising Bush’s policy on imprisonment, his use of torture and above all the sheer ineptitude of the president’s war. But here, too, the Cold War offers a revealing analogy. Like Stalin’s Western admirers who, in the wake of Khrushchev’s revelations, resented the Soviet dictator not so much for his crimes as for discrediting their Marxism, so intellectual supporters of the Iraq War – among them Michael Ignatieff, Leon Wieseltier, David Remnick and other prominent figures in the North American liberal establishment – have focused their regrets not on the catastrophic invasion itself (which they all supported) but on its incompetent execution. They are irritated with Bush for giving ‘preventive war’ a bad name.
In a similar vein, those centrist voices that bayed most insistently for blood in the prelude to the Iraq War – the New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman demanded that France be voted ‘Off the Island’ (i.e. out of the Security Council) for its presumption in opposing America’s drive to war – are today the most confident when asserting their monopoly of insight into world affairs. The same Friedman now sneers at ‘anti-war activists who haven’t thought a whit about the larger struggle we’re in’ (New York Times, 16 August). To be sure, Friedman’s Pulitzer-winning pieties are always road-tested for middlebrow political acceptability. But for just that reason they are a sure guide to the mood of the American intellectual mainstream.
Friedman is seconded by Beinart, who concedes that he ‘didn’t realise’(!) how detrimental American actions would be to ‘the struggle’ but insists even so that anyone who won’t stand up to ‘Global Jihad’ just isn’t a consistent defender of liberal values. Jacob Weisberg, the editor of Slate, writing in the Financial Times, accuses Democratic critics of the Iraq War of failing ‘to take the wider, global battle against Islamic fanaticism seriously’. The only people qualified to speak on this matter, it would seem, are those who got it wrong initially. Such insouciance in spite of – indeed because of – your past misjudgments recalls a remark by the French ex-Stalinist Pierre Courtade to Edgar Morin, a dissenting Communist vindicated by events: ‘You and your kind were wrong to be right; we were right to be wrong.’
It is particularly ironic that the ‘Clinton generation’ of American liberal intellectuals take special pride in their ‘tough-mindedness’, in their success in casting aside the illusions and myths of the old left, for these same ‘tough’ new liberals reproduce some of that old left’s worst characteristics. They may see themselves as having migrated to the opposite shore; but they display precisely the same mixture of dogmatic faith and cultural provincialism, not to mention the exuberant enthusiasm for violent political transformation at other people’s expense, that marked their fellow-travelling predecessors across the Cold War ideological divide. The use value of such persons to ambitious, radical regimes is an old story. Indeed, intellectual camp followers of this kind were first identified by Lenin himself, who coined the term that still describes them best. Today, America’s liberal armchair warriors are the ‘useful idiots’ of the War on Terror.
In fairness, America’s bellicose intellectuals are not alone. In Europe, Adam Michnik, the hero of the Polish intellectual resistance to Communism, has become an outspoken admirer of the embarrassingly Islamophobic Oriana Fallaci; Václav Havel has joined the DC-based Committee on the Present Danger (a recycled Cold War-era organisation dedicated to rooting out Communists, now pledged to fighting ‘the threat posed by global radical Islamist and fascist terrorist movements’); André Glucksmann in Paris contributes agitated essays to Le Figaro (most recently on 8 August) lambasting ‘universal Jihad’, Iranian ‘lust for power’ and radical Islam’s strategy of ‘green subversion’. All three enthusiastically supported the invasion of Iraq.
In the European case this trend is an unfortunate by-product of the intellectual revolution of the 1980s, especially in the former Communist East, when ‘human rights’ displaced conventional political allegiances as the basis for collective action. The gains wrought by this transformation in the rhetoric of oppositional politics were considerable. But a price was paid all the same. A commitment to the abstract universalism of ‘rights’ – and uncompromising ethical stands taken against malign regimes in their name – can lead all too readily to the habit of casting every political choice in binary moral terms. In this light Bush’s War against Terror, Evil and Islamo-fascism appears seductive and even familiar: self-deluding foreigners readily mistake the US president’s myopic rigidity for their own moral rectitude.
But back home, America’s liberal intellectuals are fast becoming a service class, their opinions determined by their allegiance and calibrated to justify a political end. In itself this is hardly a new departure: we are all familiar with intellectuals who speak only on behalf of their country, class, religion, race, gender or sexual orientation, and who shape their opinions according to what they take to be the interest of their affinity of birth or predilection. But the distinctive feature of the liberal intellectual in past times was precisely the striving for universality; not the unworldly or disingenuous denial of sectional interest but the sustained effort to transcend that interest.
It is thus depressing to read some of the better known and more avowedly ‘liberal’ intellectuals in the contemporary USA exploiting their professional credibility to advance a partisan case. Jean Bethke Elshtain and Michael Walzer, two senior figures in the country’s philosophical establishment (she at the University of Chicago Divinity School, he at the Princeton Institute), both wrote portentous essays purporting to demonstrate the justness of necessary wars – she in Just War against Terror: The Burden of American Power in a Violent World, a pre-emptive defence of the Iraq War; he only a few weeks ago in a shameless justification of Israel’s bombardments of Lebanese civilians (‘War Fair’, New Republic, 31 July). In today’s America, neo-conservatives generate brutish policies for which liberals provide the ethical fig-leaf. There really is no other difference between them.
One of the particularly depressing ways in which liberal intellectuals have abdicated personal and ethical responsibility for the actions they now endorse can be seen in their failure to think independently about the Middle East. Not every liberal cheerleader for the Global War against Islamo-fascism, or against Terror, or against Global Jihad, is an unreconstructed supporter of Likud: Christopher Hitchens, for one, is critical of Israel. But the willingness of so many American pundits and commentators and essayists to roll over for Bush’s doctrine of preventive war; to abstain from criticising the disproportionate use of air power on civilian targets in both Iraq and Lebanon; and to stay coyly silent in the face of Condoleezza Rice’s enthusiasm for the bloody ‘birth pangs of a new Middle East’, makes more sense when one recalls their backing for Israel: a country which for fifty years has rested its entire national strategy on preventive wars, disproportionate retaliation, and efforts to redesign the map of the whole Middle East.
Since its inception the state of Israel has fought a number of wars of choice (the only exception was the Yom Kippur War of 1973). To be sure, these have been presented to the world as wars of necessity or self-defence; but Israel’s statesmen and generals have never been under any such illusion. Whether this approach has done Israel much good is debatable (for a clear-headed recent account that describes as a resounding failure his country’s strategy of using wars of choice to ‘redraw’ the map of its neighbourhood, see Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli-Arab Tragedy by Shlomo Ben-Ami,[2] a historian and former Israeli foreign minister). But the idea of a super-power behaving in a similar way – responding to terrorist threats or guerrilla incursions by flattening another country just to preserve its own deterrent credibility – is odd in the extreme. It is one thing for the US unconditionally to underwrite Israel’s behaviour (though in neither country’s interest, as some Israeli commentators at least have remarked). But for the US to imitate Israel wholesale, to import that tiny country’s self-destructive, intemperate response to any hostility or opposition and to make it the leitmotif of American foreign policy: that is simply bizarre.
Bush’s Middle Eastern policy now tracks so closely to the Israeli precedent that it is very difficult to see daylight between the two. It is this surreal turn of events that helps explain the confusion and silence of American liberal thinking on the subject (as well, perhaps, as Tony Blair’s syntactically sympathetic me-tooism). Historically, liberals have been unsympathetic to ‘wars of choice’ when undertaken or proposed by their own government. War, in the liberal imagination (and not only the liberal one), is a last resort, not a first option. But the United States now has an Israeli-style foreign policy and America’s liberal intellectuals overwhelmingly support it.
The contradictions to which this can lead are striking. There is, for example, a blatant discrepancy between Bush’s proclaimed desire to bring democracy to the Muslim world and his refusal to intervene when the only working instances of fragile democracy in action in the whole Muslim world – in Palestine and Lebanon – were systematically ignored and then shattered by America’s Israeli ally. This discrepancy, and the bad faith and hypocrisy which it seems to suggest, have become a staple of editorial pages and internet blogs the world over, to America’s lasting discredit. But America’s leading liberal intellectuals have kept silent. To speak would be to choose between the tactical logic of America’s new ‘war of movement’ against Islamic fascism – democracy as the sweetener for American involvement – and the strategic tradition of Israeli statecraft, for which democratic neighbours are no better and most likely worse than authoritarian ones. This is not a choice that most American liberal commentators are even willing to acknowledge, much less make. And so they say nothing.
This blind spot obscures and risks polluting and obliterating every traditional liberal concern and inhibition. How else can one explain the appalling illustration on the cover of the New Republic of 7 August: a lurid depiction of Hizbullah’s Hassan Nasrallah in the style of Der Stürmer crossed with more than a touch of the ‘Dirty Jap’ cartoons of World War Two? How else is one to account for the convoluted, sophistic defence by Leon Wieseltier in the same journal of the killing of Arab children in Qana (‘These are not tender times’)? But the blind spot is not just ethical, it is also political: if American liberals ‘didn’t realise’ why their war in Iraq would have the predictable effect of promoting terrorism, benefiting the Iranian ayatollahs and turning Iraq into Lebanon, then we should not expect them to understand (or care) that Israel’s brutal over-reaction risks turning Lebanon into Iraq.
In Five Germanys I Have Known, Fritz Stern – a coauthor of the 1988 New York Times text defending liberalism – writes of his concern about the condition of the liberal spirit in America today.[3] It is with the extinction of that spirit, he notes, that the death of a republic begins. Stern, a historian and a refugee from Nazi Germany, speaks with authority on this matter. And he is surely correct. We don’t expect right-wingers to care very much about the health of a republic, particularly when they are assiduously engaged in the unilateral promotion of empire. And the ideological left, while occasionally adept at analysing the shortcomings of a liberal republic, is typically not much interested in defending it.
It is the liberals, then, who count. They are, as it might be, the canaries in the sulphurous mineshaft of modern democracy. The alacrity with which many of America’s most prominent liberals have censored themselves in the name of the War on Terror, the enthusiasm with which they have invented ideological and moral cover for war and war crimes and proffered that cover to their political enemies: all this is a bad sign. Liberal intellectuals used to be distinguished precisely by their efforts to think for themselves, rather than in the service of others. Intellectuals should not be smugly theorising endless war, much less confidently promoting and excusing it. They should be engaged in disturbing the peace – their own above all.

http://the-osterley-times.blogspot.com/2006/10/tony-judt-on-strange-death-of-liberal.html

Travh20
11-03-2006, 12:50 PM
RIP liberal america, it's been fun.

Decka
11-03-2006, 12:51 PM
Saying Liberalism is gone from America is like saying good football is gone from the Indianapolis Colts...

just doesnt add up

Travh20
11-03-2006, 12:59 PM
or like saying the 49ers have a good defense

Decka
11-03-2006, 03:54 PM
or like saying the 49ers have a good defense

don't believe him? ask LaDanian Tomlinson:lolhit:

Brooks
11-03-2006, 11:12 PM
Liberalism: "showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition"

I don't think liberalism is dead, I just don't think it exists within our major political parties.

DanF
11-04-2006, 10:45 AM
Liberalism: "showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition"

I don't think liberalism is dead, I just don't think it exists within our major political parties.

But, not dead among many of the politicians. A liberal attitude would be considered, by conservatives, those which would encourage: rights for illegals, abortion, gay rights, tampering with the pleged of allegiance, no prayer in schools, the ACLU, taking in god we trust off the currency, seeking to make deals with terrorists, allow women of the Islamic faith to cover their face when having drivers license pictures made, allow a language other than English to be used in the U.S., make hand guns illegal, to name a few things.

Brooks
11-04-2006, 01:04 PM
I agree with you, but you're talking about Liberalism, not liberalism.
If liberalism really means open minded and anti-conventional, then both political philosophies could be liberal. But both sides just cherry-pick the definition.

Take "freedom of choice" for example. One side thinks it should always mean guns and never mean abortion and the other side thinks it should always mean abortion and never mean guns.
Neither actually believes in choice.
Neither is very liberal.

Evakian
11-04-2006, 01:11 PM
Take "freedom of choice" for example. One side thinks it should always mean guns and never mean abortion and the other side thinks it should always mean abortion and never mean guns.
Neither actually believes in choice.
Neither is very liberal.
Find me 10 liberals that "never mean guns" in regards to personal freedom of choice.
But, not dead among many of the politicians. A liberal attitude would be considered, by conservatives, those which would encourage: rights for illegals, abortion, gay rights, tampering with the pleged of allegiance, no prayer in schools, the ACLU, taking in god we trust off the currency, seeking to make deals with terrorists, allow women of the Islamic faith to cover their face when having drivers license pictures made, allow a language other than English to be used in the U.S., make hand guns illegal, to name a few things.
Some of those things are liberal in principle, but most are just conservative issues opposite of the republicans views.

DanF
11-04-2006, 04:19 PM
Some of those things are liberal in principle, but most are just conservative issues opposite of the republicans views.

Then by that same standard, they would be liberal issues opposite of the democrats views wouldn't they?

Evakian
11-04-2006, 08:49 PM
Then by that same standard, they would be liberal issues opposite of the democrats views wouldn't they?
No, those positions are supported by democrats, yet some of them do not live up to the expectation of: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition.

...such as banning handguns, as that does not fit that mold.

Show me a democrat politician who wants handguns made illegal and I'll show you a republican politician who wants to legalize prostitution and narcotics.

waldo
11-06-2006, 02:54 PM
liberalism is moribund at the moment because they have few/no rational policies to deal with the issues. Furthermore, on the international front liberalism is reflexively anti-american as well as contradictory. A simple example from the article itself. Orianna Fallaci has been a life long feminist and supporter of leftist causes. Yet because she refuese to be treated like a second-class citizen her objection to militant islam her rejection is called 'embarrassingly Islamophobic'.

Freethinker
11-06-2006, 03:17 PM
Why have American liberals acquiesced in President Bush’s catastrophic foreign policy?

Because they have zero political say in this country. What point is there left in voicing one's opposition, when you're outnumbered 10,000 to 1 by the ignorant *Gawd-Guns-and-Guts* types in the electorate that get to choose what direction the country takes......??

Why have (American liberals) so little to say about Iraq, about Lebanon, or about reports of a planned attack on Iran? Why has the administration’s sustained attack on civil liberties and international law aroused so little opposition or anger from those who used to care most about these things?

Because they wield virtually zero political influence in this country.

Why, in short, has the liberal intelligentsia of the United States in recent years kept its head safely below the parapet?

Because they wield virtually zero political influence in this country.

They speak out. They have never stopped speaking out. Chomsky still writes about the issues of the day. Zinn still voices his opinions. Vidal still writes (brilliant) political critiques. Parenti still weighs in with his thougths.

It's just that they are either totally ignored and ridiculed, or.....

........if SOME small shred of what they are saying should ever chance to penetrate Corporate mainstream Media's force-field and get noticed by the Public, it will be completely villified by the uber-Conservative faction that holds the reins of power.

Evakian
11-06-2006, 03:27 PM
Because they have zero political say in this country.
Everyone at these forums seems to have different definitions of what constitutes a "liberal-minded" person. I see it more fit to look at the state of secular progressive issues in our nation.

If conservatives wielded all the power: would abortion be legal? How about gay marriage in Massachusetts? Kiss social service programs goodbye, screw the poor and the old. Would we lack a military draft? Would religion be mandated to be kept from public schools? One can forget about labor unions being around. Hell, even minorities and women getting the vote?

Those are just some of the issues touched on that illustrate the point that you are wrong; liberals and liberal ideas are alive in America, and are in our legislation. Any attempt to paint it otherwise seems silly.

Freethinker
11-06-2006, 06:04 PM
If conservatives wielded all the power: would abortion be legal?

I'll admit you have a point there. That is the one anomaly in American politics that i cannot figure out; it is THE one issue where the conservatives who run things have seemingly bowed to popular sentiment over the faux "morality" and "family valyews" horseshit that they constantly trumpet.

How about gay marriage in Massachusetts?

ONE state having one clear-cut **liberalism-versus-conservatism** issue go to the liberals does not negate the fact that overall the country is extremely "family values"/anti-gay oriented and that the rest of the nation reviles the evil [but very small] contingent of *liberals* in Massachusetts.

Kiss social service programs goodbye, screw the poor and the old.

Which is exactly what IS currently happening under the ConservFascists.

Less and less for the poor, old and disadvantaged; Ever more and more for the military/Industrial complex has been and remains the aim (and current direction) of the rightwing Washington crowd.

Would we lack a military draft?

The reason we don't have a draft is that the conservatives don't want a draft.


Would religion be mandated to be kept from public schools?

?!?!?

Religion is not and has never been *mandated to be kept from the public schools*. Any student in america who wants to pray to their invisible friend can do so at any time they please. Deference to and respect for religion is very much in evidence in the U.S. public schools.

One can forget about labor unions being around.

Yes....another thing that is happening under the ConservaFascists.....unions ARE being quickly forgotten. Over the past 26 years, the Rightwingers have decimated the power of the unions, and are busily working to undermine that power and minimize it.

Evakian
11-06-2006, 06:26 PM
Less and less for the poor, old and disadvantaged; Ever more and more for the military/Industrial complex has been and remains the aim (and current direction) of the rightwing Washington crowd.
In the interests of this thread, would you mind posting the figures from a reputable source of the amount spent on social welfare programs? And I don't want comparisons with the amount of spending on the monolithic "military industrial" complex, I want trends in social service spending.
The reason we don't have a draft is that the conservatives don't want a draft.
A position that does not go well in tandem with your "E-ville Republican conservative swine that need to eat my s***!!!!?!" rhetoric.
Religion is not and has never been *mandated to be kept from the public schools*.
There is no public school mandated prayer, references to religion at all are kept at a bare minimum, and religion as a whole is kept from the public school's daily life.
Yes....another thing that is happening under the ConservaFascists.....unions ARE being quickly forgotten. Over the past 26 years, the Rightwingers have decimated the power of the unions, and are busily working to undermine that power and minimize it.
Since you have so much fun demonizing "Rightwingers" with your most wretched form of hatred, I'm sure you'll have fun backing this claim up with evidence. Not to mention the fact that the unions are still here, and will likely remain here as long as this nation is around.

Freethinker
11-06-2006, 06:51 PM
There is no public school mandated prayer,........

That is FAR diferent than your previous implication that religion is being mandated to be kept from public schools.

.....references to religion at all are kept at a bare minimum,......

I have never read or heard anything that would bear out that claim. See below for numerous refutations of that claim.

...and religion as a whole is kept from the public school's daily life.

Oh puuuhleeeeze. Even you are not clueless enough to think that is the case.

I do not sit on any school board, but i DO know that schoolkids bring home artwork where they depict religious icons and references, they say a pledge in the mornings with **God** prominently mentioned, schools are allowed to have religious study groups in school, public schools in some states offer Bible courses, the students are given vacations to celebrate religious holidays.....the examples are numerous.

Evakian
11-06-2006, 07:12 PM
That is FAR diferent than your previous implication that religion is being mandated to be kept from public schools.
Way to chop up my sentence in an attempt to make a rebuttal.
Oh puuuhleeeeze. Even you are not clueless enough to think that is the case.
I am in school, I experience these things firsthand, and being that I live in red-state Texas and we are non-religious at school, that certainly says something for the state of religion in public schools in this country.
I do not sit on any school board, but i DO know that schoolkids bring home artwork where they depict religious icons and references, they say a pledge in the mornings with **God** prominently mentioned, schools are allowed to have religious study groups in school, public schools in some states offer Bible courses, the students are given vacations to celebrate religious holidays.....the examples are numerous.
-You would consider Santa Claus a religious icon, so that 'art' argument is moot.
-The pledge is not mandatory
-Clubs are formed by student bodies, or sometimes with faculty members to organize and direct. Clubs are not a daily part of school life because they are extra-curricular. (Read: such religious themes are not foisted upon the student body, as joining these clubs is voluntary). If you can provide evidence of states or even school districts forcing the students into religious clubs or prayer groups, I'd love to see it.
-The Bible courses train one to become culturally literate, as knowing about the most prominent religion in the world and this country is important. Also note that such a class would be an elective.
-Vacations are offered for cultural reasons. Surely you can't be so clueless as to think, "Well, garwsh! Since theys be letting people off for Christmas and Easter (since this is a majority Christian nation where such holidays would be requested), that must be religious infecshunz in our skoolz!!!11!!"

If the examples are so numerous, keep naming them. And while you're at it you can provide the statistics and data I requested on the state of social welfare and labor unions in this country.

And I forgot to address this in one of your previous postings:
ONE state having one clear-cut **liberalism-versus-conservatism** issue go to the liberals does not negate the fact that overall the country is extremely "family values"/anti-gay oriented and that the rest of the nation reviles the evil [but very small] contingent of *liberals* in Massachusetts.
The crux of my argument is not about "negating" that this nation is extremely family values/anti-gay oriented. It's about disproving your nonsense claim that liberals: "have zero political say in this country."

That is false. Demonstrably false. And the existence of the Democratic Party is evidence of the fact that liberals have ideals in legislation and in office across the nation. I can hear you bang your head and proclaim, "The Democrats are simply 95% Conservafascist!!!!!!!!!...!!!!" but you and I both know that is just venting your anger by saying mistruths and exaggerations. Your claim still remains false.

Freethinker
11-06-2006, 08:07 PM
Way to chop up my sentence in an attempt to make a rebuttal.

I did not mean to *chop it* up. You seemed to me to be implying that religion is being mandated to be kept from public schools. You are quickly overtaking another one here as the most intellectually dishonest poster.

I am in school, I experience these things firsthand, and being that I live in red-state Texas and we are non-religious at school, that certainly says something for the state of religion in public schools in this country.

No, you intellctually dishonest putz.

It says says something for the state of religion in ONE public school in this country.

-You would consider Santa Claus a religious icon, so that 'art' argument is moot.

The word *Santa* is a euphemism for *Saint*. Now tell me again how that is NOT related to religion.


-The pledge is not mandatory.

The fact of whether or not it is *mandatory* does nothing to negate the fact that millions of schoolchildren ARE invoking **God** every morning --which directy contradicts and refutes YOUR claim that --""religion as a whole is kept from the public school's daily life"".



-Clubs are formed by student bodies, or sometimes with faculty members to organize and direct.

And some of those clubs are IN the Public schools and ARE religious clubs.

If you can provide evidence of states or even school districts forcing the students into religious clubs or prayer groups, I'd love to see it.

More intellectually dishonest than THAT, you cannot be.

This has NOTHING to do with anyone being **forced** to do anything religious. It has to do with your assertion that -- ""religion as a whole is kept from the public school's daily life"".



-The Bible courses train one to become culturally literate, as knowing about the most prominent religion in the world and this country is important.

This is NOT about whether or not Bible courses train one to become culturally literate....it is NOT about what is or is not the most prominent religion in the country....it is about your assertion that -- ""religion as a whole is kept from the public school's daily life"".

The fact that these Bible courses DO exist directy contradicts and refutes YOUR claim that --""religion as a whole is kept from the public school's daily life"".

-Vacations are offered for cultural reasons.

Yeah....right. :rolleyes:

...the existence of the Democratic Party is evidence of the fact that liberals have ideals in legislation and in office across the nation.

The Democratic Party has little to nothing to do with liberalism.

Surely you can't be so clueless as to think, "Well, garwsh! Since theys be letting people off for Christmas and Easter (since this is a majority Christian nation where such holidays would be requested), that must be religious infecshunz in our skoolz!!!11!!"

No, letting people off for Christmas and Easter does not indicate that there must be a religious *infection* in our schools.

But letting the entire student body off for Christmas and Easter DOES refute your nonsensical claim that -- ""religion as a whole is kept from the public school's daily life"".

But then, an intellectually dishonest little worm like you will probably argue that Christmas and Easter really don't have anything to do with religion. And with THAT, I bid you and your idiocy adieu.

Evakian
11-06-2006, 08:10 PM
The Democratic Party has little to nothing to do with liberalism.
You're right, we are done here.