HAMTRAMCK, Mich. -- A judge dismissed a small-claims court case filed by a Muslim woman after she refused to remove her veil when she testified.
Ginnnah Muhammad, 42, wore a niqab - a scarf and veil that cover her head and face, leaving only the eyes visible - during a court hearing this month in Hamtramck, a city surrounded by Detroit. She was contesting a $2,750 charge from a rental-car company.
District Judge Paul Paruk told her he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness and gave her a choice: take off the veil while testifying or have the case dismissed. She kept it on.

She made her choice (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Court_Defendant_Veil.html)

HAMTRAMCK, Mich. -- A judge dismissed a small-claims court case filed by a Muslim woman after she refused to remove her veil when she testified.
Ginnnah Muhammad, 42, wore a niqab - a scarf and veil that cover her head and face, leaving only the eyes visible - during a court hearing this month in Hamtramck, a city surrounded by Detroit. She was contesting a $2,750 charge from a rental-car company.
District Judge Paul Paruk told her he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness and gave her a choice: take off the veil while testifying or have the case dismissed. She kept it on.

She made her choice (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Court_Defendant_Veil.html)

That's not a surprising decision. The reason people have to testify in person, rather than over the phone or something like that, is so that their testimony may be evaluated by their expressions/behavior as well as their verbage. That purpose would be largely defeated if a person was allowed to testyify behind a veil.

I think the ruling is fair. Otherwise, she could literally be anybody under there. Her choice. Let's see now if people start screaming about human rights and religious freedom.

Honestly - fuck her. The ruling was totally fair. What does she say to the person taking pictures at the DMV - "sorry, but I refuse to take the niqab off. Screw your dirty American laws; now you're messing with my religion..."

Assimilate or get out.

Sounds fair to me.

Of course this should cut both ways and apply to goverment agents as well.

And Prea is still an idiot with his "assimilate or get out" bit.

Freedom of religion...But then again that would imply you care about the constitution in the first place...

Honestly - fuck her. The ruling was totally fair. What does she say to the person taking pictures at the DMV - "sorry, but I refuse to take the niqab off. Screw your dirty American laws; now you're messing with my religion..."

I agree completely.

People exhibiting signs of deep-seated mental imbalance (such as thinking that a piece of cloth in front of your face is absolutely necessary in order to please some invisible deity) will continually come into conflict with the more rational elements of society.

And Prea is still an idiot with his "assimilate or get out" bit...
You're entitled to your opinion. Many patriots in the past have felt differently, but don't let that stop you; I suppose they're idiots too.

Originally Posted by 500lbguerilla
And Prea is still an idiot with his "assimilate or get out" bit...

Many patriots in the past have felt differently........

A) Like who, for instance?

b) Respectfully Prae, if they possessed an unbending ---*assimilate or get out*--- attitude, then I'm not sure they fit the definition of "patriot".

Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Honestly - fuck her. The ruling was totally fair. What does she say to the person taking pictures at the DMV - "sorry, but I refuse to take the niqab off. Screw your dirty American laws; now you're messing with my religion..."

Assimilate or get out.
===========================================

Spoken like a true American!

Spoken like a true American!
Spoken like many Americans in the past? Yes.

Spoken like a "true" American? Hardly.

Then what's a "true" American to you, Evak?

Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

That statement is as applicable today as it was 99 years ago. We should demand no less from anyone wishing to reside in this country.

Exactly.

Who decides the ideal american image?

Who decides the ideal american image?
Why you do...American.

Who decides the ideal american image?
==========================================

Ideal Americans!

Then what's a "true" American to you, Evak?
I see Americans as a people of diversity. Often closed minds counter that image I have, but it still stands due to the variety of life in our nation.

This woman is practicing her religion and culture, and unless you can prove it is a danger on the road, there is no reason for her to take off her veil especially when it doesn't cover her eyes.

Who decides the ideal american image?
WASPs for the most part, as it has been since the beginning.

This woman is practicing her religion and culture, and unless you can prove it is a danger on the road, there is no reason for her to take off her veil especially when it doesn't cover her eyes.

If nothing else, it obstructs her peripheral vision, creating a potential safety hazard both to herself and others using the same roadways. There are times and places for everything and not everything is suitable at any given moment.

If nothing else, it obstructs her peripheral vision, creating a potential safety hazard both to herself and others using the same roadways. There are times and places for everything and not everything is suitable at any given moment.
That depends on the amount of space given to her eyes. Since we have no picture or evidence that it is a hazard on the road, my argument still stands.

Try wearing blinders ... similar to the ones used on horses ... and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about. Were I a kop (there's a scary image) I'd write her (or anyone in a similar situation) a ticket for unsafe operation of a vehicle at the very least.

Try wearing blinders...
Blinders are not a hijab.

Prove to me that there is imminent danger in wearing a religious/cultural garb while driving. Show me a statistic that shows American Muslim women are more prone to accidents than other demographics.

I don't have access to those kinds of stats. Doesn't change my stance one bit. I've been driving nearly 40 years, with 1 accident roughly 30 years ago. As I said above .. There are times and places for everything and not everything is suitable at any given moment.

ummm... Assimilate or get out...

Since America was founded by some Brits does that mean that everyone should have to act like brits? Like those who orginally started the country? Is so they why do we have the First amendment? Why evenencourage immigration? Why not interrogate and indoctrinate potential immigrants, maybe force them to sign some agreement saying they'll eat hotdogs, watch baseball and drink shitty beer?

Forgive me if I don't take the "wisdom" of those who think hating the president = hating the country.

BTW nice WC quote ES.

Just a question. Do muslim women wear the niqab when having a passport photo taken?

I see Americans as a people of diversity. Often closed minds counter that image I have, but it still stands due to the variety of life in our nation.
Even though I happen to agree with you, it was a nice attempt at a subtle jab anyway.
This woman is practicing her religion and culture, and unless you can prove it is a danger on the road, there is no reason for her to take off her veil especially when it doesn't cover her eyes.
That's not the point, brainiac. The question about a passport above is just as applicable. They're forms of IDENTIFICATION.

Wearing a veil has nothing to do with a person not being American or not assimilating. It is simply a religious practice and in itself shows no indication of the person's national loyalty or allegience. Notice that Theodore Roosevelt said nothing about a person's religion when speaking about being an American.

There's also this little bit:
"for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin."
Too bad that people don't laud that sentence as they do the rest of the paragraph.

Blinders are not a hijab.

Prove to me that there is imminent danger in wearing a religious/cultural garb while driving. Show me a statistic that shows American Muslim women are more prone to accidents than other demographics.

I don't have stats, but a local muslin lady taking her driving test started the car, backed up, then lurched forward through a guardrail and into the river.

The Sheik Halali, Australia's LEADING cleric agrees with some of you guys.

He says that women that go in public uncovered are "uncovered meat" and being raped is THEIR fault.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20653653-601,00.html

I read in another article that they cannot do anything with him because he has such a large powerbase.

Keep defending these people if you want all gays dead, and all women stuck at home.

You got ahead of me in posting that link, Dan. Isn't that guy special?

yeah that guys a fucking nutter. Hopefully he gets raped by some gay guy for exposing his flesh.

I also read that women in Iraq, Afganistan, and Somalia are being attacked and raped for speaking out, in public, for womens' rights.

You got ahead of me in posting that link, Dan. Isn't that guy special?
=============================

Yes, and one of the problems is that these type clerics are the power brokers of the religion.
One can speak of how peaceful the religion is all they want, but these clerics appear to set the rules for the masses to follow.

=============================

Yes, and one of the problems is that these type clerics are the power brokers of the religion.
One can speak of how peaceful the religion is all they want, but these clerics appear to set the rules for the masses to follow.

Exactly

Headlines- IRAN MEN CAN HIT THEIR WIVES, CLERIC SAYS.

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Religion&loid=8.0.353798383&par=0

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20653653-601,00.html

I read in another article that they cannot do anything with him because he has such a large powerbase.

Keep defending these people if you want all gays dead, and all women stuck at home.


http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2006-10/27/01.shtml

The sermons of Australia's top Islamic scholar Sheikh Taj Aldin Al-Hilali were suspended Friday, October 27, for up to three months after sparking a firestorm by comparing immodestly-clad women to "uncovered meat."

"We feel at this stage that is only fair that he be stood down for the next couple of months," said Abdul El Ayoubi, of the Lebanese Muslim Association (LMA), which administers the Sydney mosque where the scholar is based, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).

"He has got the hajj trip that's coming up in a month-and-a-half so he will be away. And it will only add fuel to the fire if he continues in the interim to give sermons," he said.

Headlines- IRAN MEN CAN HIT THEIR WIVES, CLERIC SAYS.


Don't you find it frightening that even headline writers misuse the English language?
The question is not whether can men hit women, of course they can. The question is whether they may or should be allowed to do so.

The question is not whether can men hit women, of course they can. The question is whether they may or should be allowed to do so.Looking at the article, it seems that they're not allowed to do so by Iranian law. From the article:
"If we learn that someone hits their wife on the basis of these statements we will report them along with Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi to the judicial authority of the Islamic Republic."

Don't you find it frightening that even headline writers misuse the English language?
The question is not whether can men hit women, of course they can. The question is whether they may or should be allowed to do so.
Not as frightening as the fact that I read the sentence over four times before I could figure out what you meant.

AND you had the answer right there for me before I realized that too. Ah well... I am only now having my coffee. That will help. That's my story and I am trying hard to believe it. *sniff*

Looking at the article, it seems that they're not allowed to do so by Iranian law. From the article:
"If we learn that someone hits their wife on the basis of these statements we will report them along with Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi to the judicial authority of the Islamic Republic."
As a woman, this is where I get bogged down with their religion and the whole eastern mentality. They are not supposed to have to cover their heads nor are they supposed to be treated like cattle. Yet somehow factions of their society manage to condone both depending upon who is speaking.

And therein lies my whole dilemma with hijab/berka issue. I used to view it as rather mysterious and sort of a cool expression of their religious belief. Now I just view it as a sign of slavery. It certainly has shortened my tolerance for things "different" and that too irritates me.

Looking at the article, it seems that they're not allowed to do so by Iranian law. From the article:
"If we learn that someone hits their wife on the basis of these statements we will report them along with Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi to the judicial authority of the Islamic Republic."
================================================== =

Any countries laws are obviously meaningless to radical Islamists.

Many people do not realize that Iran has 3 ruling factions.
The Judiciary, mentioned above, is headed by President Ahmadinejab, considered a radical hard-liner. Very little would be done to anyone following the orders of a cleric like Shirazi.

The other 2 ruling factors are the mainstream conservatives, headed by Supreme leader Khamanei(first among equals), and the pragmatists, headed by former President Rafsanjani.

Covered Heads Meet Unveiled Bigotry

I am a Muslim woman from Iran and I try to represent myself as an example of modesty and as a sanctuary to female independence by wearing hijab (Islamic head cover). I also serve as coordinator of the Marriage and Family Therapy program at St. Cloud State University, teach graduate courses, provide supervision for Marriage and Family Therapy students and see clients in my private practice to keep my stories and skills fresh.

It has become second nature to get very curious looks from students, clients and professionals when I walk into a classroom for the first time, when I come to the lobby to greet a client or when I go to the podium to present at a conference. So, to put people at ease, I usually talk about my faith and hijab, and only then do I talk about my professional training and my experiences in marriage and family therapy.

I always welcome questions and try to get people to stay away from culturally sensitive politeness; otherwise, they would inevitably walk away with more stereotypes than those they held before. I have worked very hard to be at the place I am today.

During my years of training, I always needed to start with a provocative, almost shocking conversation to let my professors, supervisors and mentors know about who I am and what some of my beliefs are, including the idea that my hijab represents my hard-core feminist ideology that women should be respected for the intelligence and skills they possess, not for their body image.

I tried hard to convince these concerned professionals that maybe my people skills could go beyond my Middle East accent and my appearance, and that maybe it was possible for a walking, talking stereotype to be more than just that. In fact, I might just be a very capable professional, even if some people thought I looked like a slave of Ali Baba.

I had become comfortable using my people skills, and had come to think that I might just have gotten through to a few people who otherwise would have seen me for what they wanted me to be, when Sept. 11 happened.

The very next day, a struggling contract worker for my in-laws left me a message about her discovery that I was the terrorist involved. She very kindly informed me that her next phone call would be to the FBI.

It seemed she wanted to take advantage of a horrific and mind-boggling tragedy to somehow squeeze some extra bucks out of us. "You should be detained and questioned by the FBI," a 56-year-old client shouted at me two days later.

He was among my many clients who knew that I am from Iran and that I got back from a visit to Iran two weeks before the events of Sept. 11. He honestly believed that all Muslims should be questioned, including his supposedly friendly and effective therapist, who just happened to be helping him get over his fear of everything and his constant and chronic anxiety! He went on to say that since I had just visited Iran, it must have been related to the attack. This democracy-loving patriot found it fishy that I happen to go on vacations.

A week later, another client arrived wearing a T-shirt with Osama bin Laden's picture on it. Underneath it said, "Wanted: Dead not Alive." I couldn't help glancing at her T-shirt as I was bringing her to my office. So she pulled her jacket over her shirt and said: "Oops, I am sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.

You might actually admire the guy!" I was tempted to ask her if Timothy McVeigh was on her Christmas list, to get the message through to her humorously. But I have learned that saying nothing at all sometimes can be better than any combinations of words in the English language.

These harsh or insensitive comments actually led us to have interesting but painful conversations, and I tried not to take these remarks personally. In fact, in their shoes I might just do the same. I had become a symbol for everything that they wanted to hate and blame.

Somehow I was the representative of the enemy, and maybe it gave them comfort to have identified the cause instead of being oblivious of the perpetrator's identity.

Right there in front of them is this Muslim woman who wears hijab and explains her Islamic orientation at the beginning of the evaluation session. So, how is it possible for her to be anything but a fundamentalist and a terrorist? She must be an enemy of freedom and democracy, probably as a result of her constant oppression and violation of her rights by Muslim men.

Years after becoming proud of my flexibility in having face-to-face and heart-to-heart conversations, I suddenly feel agitated, exhausted and overwhelmed. Despite countless efforts to enlighten people about their misconceptions and stereotypes, I will always be a democracy-hating, bomb-carrying, Muslim terrorist who just happened to educate herself along the way.

Reminders of war when I came to the United States 17 years ago, Iran was involved in an imposed war with neighboring Iraq. The war started in 1980, a year after the Islamic revolution, and continued until 1988. One million people died, 2 million were disabled and three major cities were destroyed. I still have vivid memories.

I can almost smell the burning flesh and hear the roar of airplanes as they came to drop bombs on us while we prayed, frantically and helplessly. I remember what it felt like to think I would be next, what it was like to feel shut out of daylight with the windows painted black and to hide in the basement. And I remember the snippets of film on TV of people screaming as they look at their hanging limb or their dead child on the ground.

I can still hear the numbers of the body count called on the television, and I remember praying that I wouldn't be next. So, on Sept. 11, watching people running and screaming was not just horrifying but also a reminder that life is precious but taken away so easily and, worst of all, unfairly.

That I had been in an airplane just two weeks before made my stomach churn; every time I closed my eyes I saw myself and my two daughters as passengers in the ill-fated flights of Sept. 11. I could actually quite identify with what many in New York were feeling. Nevertheless, I was immediately put on the other end of the continuum by the media and government officials.

President Bush calls this a war between good and evil, but I know that 5,000 children die every month in Iraq because of the U.S. economic embargo; I cannot see those children as evil, nor can I see the American government's enforced embargoes as good.

Hatred for U.S. policy

So I don't mind making the extra effort to have conversations about differences. I don't even mind discussing the same issues over and over again. But I get discouraged when I am always the one on the defense. It will be so refreshing to see people actually seek out sources of information other than CNN, ABC and NBC to see what is really happening out there, both politically and culturally.

There may have been a "20/20" program about an oppressed woman in Lebanon, but that does not mean that people will know everything about all of us Muslim women who wear hijab. Sally Field's film portrayal of a woman who would not leave a Muslim country without her daughter does not mean that all Muslim women deal with such situations, nor does it mean non-Muslims do not.

With American society so overpowered by the media, it's no wonder that so many teenage girls become vulnerable to anorexia, bulimia and other eating disorders. Think of the cultural and political equivalent. We starve our minds from understanding political issues and cultural stereotypes just as girls starve themselves of much-needed carbohydrates.

I have heard many Americans say, "I just don't understand what we have done that these people hate us so much." I can tell you for a fact it isn't you they hate, it is these oppressive and life-threatening foreign policies of the government they cannot endure.

And when you stand up so proudly and claim to the whole world that you are No. 1 because the government is in your hands and does what you want it to do, it is only inevitable that the mother in Iraq who has just watched her child starve, the father who has just been beaten crazy after trying to protect his home and family in Palestine, and the grandmother who lost her family in the war in Iran, aren't going to like you so much for having such great control over your government and making such peace-loving decisions.

So what is the message in all of this that I, the crazy, Middle Eastern, Osama-loving, bomb-carrying, freedom-and democracy-hating Muslim woman might relay here? Well, most of the time, refraining from being narrow-minded is just what the doctor ordered for a bad case of chronic belief in stereotypes, and proving a stereotype wrong a day keeps the ignorance and misunderstandings away.

Understanding each other through our ability to open our minds a bit is just like taking our much-needed vitamins: It gives you that extra boost you need every day to hit the world head-on with all its oppression, unfairness and chaos. Inevitably, some of us just stop taking our vitamins and ignore the fact that we need them.

Do we not grow complacent about stereotypes in much the same manner? Are we weary of struggling to purge our misconceptions?

Maybe we can use our cultural sensitivity to push us one step further, to a world where open-mindedness is just another term for honesty, just another way to make us understand each other in depths that we never imagined we could. I believe when coming into contact with people from diverse backgrounds we cannot afford to cling to our stereotypes.

So do we have the capacity to use cultural sensitivity as the ultimate tool to make this world a diversity-loving, stereotype-free place? Or are we just pretending to be open-minded?

* Manijeh Daneshpour is a licensed therapist and coordinator of the Marriage and Family Therapy Post-Master Program at St. Cloud State University. She also sees clients at Associated Psychological Consultants in Bloomington, Illinois, USA.

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=33397

...

* Manijeh Daneshpour is a licensed therapist and coordinator of the Marriage and Family Therapy Post-Master Program at St. Cloud State University. She also sees clients at Associated Psychological Consultants in Bloomington, Illinois, USA.
================================================

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
If she does not like it, a plane leaves Ohara every few minutes.

I wonder how often she travels from Minnesota to Illinois. :)

So do we have the capacity to use cultural sensitivity as the ultimate tool to make this world a diversity-loving, stereotype-free place? Or are we just pretending to be open-minded? Manijeh Daneshpour
============================================

Just pretending I would guess:
MUSLIM CLERIC "Backs" EXECUTION OF GAYS.
http://manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/226/226549_muslim_cleric_backs_execution_of_gays.html

Now thats cultural sensitivity.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
If she does not like it, a plane leaves Ohara every few minutes.Immigrants to America have never "done as the Romans do" when it comes to religious practices. Many Jews still wear the kippah and many Catholics still parade statues of their saints. Yet for some reason, Muslim women shouldn't wear a veil. As ridiculous a practice as it is, it's even more ridiculous to ask someone to leave the country because of it.

Immigrants to America have never "done as the Romans do" when it comes to religious practices. Many Jews still wear the kippah and many Catholics still parade statues of their saints. Yet for some reason, Muslim women shouldn't wear a veil. As ridiculous a practice as it is, it's even more ridiculous to ask someone to leave the country because of it.

Ah, the seeds are planted. Soon the plant shall grow.
You would think me equally ridiculous to say that the only thing that will save America, as we know it, is the very Christian religion that most of us have spoken against.
One must have the capability to be far-sighted to see the end result of a mass influx of Muslims in this country.
It is not their presence here that will be the problem; it will be the changes they will bring.

Look at the most radical Islam in the Middle East and see the future of the West.
I will not live to see the effects of todays American liberalism, but your grandchildren will. Will they thank you? I think not.

You should heed the words of your own signature.

You should heed the words of your own signature. You too...

OMFWTF Teh Muslims and Mexicans are invading!!!!!!1!!!

long ago, when people came to america, they saw how it important to learn english, and adopt american ways OUTSIDE of the home. the veil and such shit is not really required by islam. just certain sects require it. come to america, be ready to live american outside of your door. but i'll be really satisfied with america when it lives up to and honors the constitution, the first nations of america, and also learns to be respectful of others ways too.