For a long time, I've questioned the existence of free will, especially in the wake of revelations about the power of the human brain and the effect of our enviroment on who we are. As I travel through life, I'm making the realization that my choices and beliefs are outside of my control, and are the result of biological, or natural stimulus and my body and mind.

So my question to you is, do you believe in free will? Are you a proponent of determinism? How do you see yourself functioning in relation to your decisions?

If so, why do you believe this? I look forward to the responses.

For a long time, I've questioned the existence of free will, especially in the wake of revelations about the power of the human brain and the effect of our enviroment on who we are. As I travel through life, I'm making the realization that my choices and beliefs are outside of my control, and are the result of biological, or natural stimulus and my body and mind.

So my question to you is, do you believe in free will? Are you a proponent of determinism? How do you see yourself functioning in relation to your decisions?

If so, why do you believe this? I look forward to the responses.Personally I have decided to concede agnosticism on this issue - I do not know if we have free will or not and what's more I increasingly suspect it is entirely unknowable. We can't, after all, turn the clock back and live our lives again to see if things turn out any differently or perform any other test.

On the one hand I do think arguments against free will are stronger than arguments against determinism. The main one is that free will implies a break in cause and effect - that we can act in such a way that is entirely original and non-derivable from existing circumstances. A consequence of this is that free will becomes synonymous with total randomness and counters the sense of continuity, order and reasons we experience as human beings.

On the other hand I live, act and talk as though I do have free will. To think that it does not exist seems to make a mockery of the very essence of being a sentient creature. Mind you, I also act and talk as though the world is flat when I am navigating in my car using a map so how things intuitively feel does not necessarily reflect reality.

Overall I'm with Homer Simpson when he mutters: I dunno.

I believe strongly in the concept of free will.

Our genes and our environment strongly influence the number of options we have, but in the long run it is (the certainty of) our ability to choose our own destiny that gives us hope. More so even more so perhaps than faith in God. (Or FT's invisible sky-faerie. Or Santa Claus. Or the Lottery.)

My current boss is a good example;
As a child, Mike was dyslexic and profoundly Attention Deficit (of course they didn't call it that back then). He would have had every excuse in the world to be a failure and a misfit, but he chose his own path. He is now instead a successful wage earner and respected manager. (He writes and speaks a little off-kilter, but hey that's just the dyslexia.) Mike chose not to be hampered by his condition.

I myself (and my siblings, when we were kids) were all 'abused' in one way or another by a trusted adult family member. (Please don't press me for details, I don't care to go into it.) We all would have had every excuse to grow up confused, angry, and disfunctional, but each in our own way we chose our own path. We all turned out to be pretty well-adjusted instead, and we've raised our kids without passing on any of the influences of our childhood experiences.

So, are my choices and beliefs are outside of my control, and are they locked in concrete from birth?
I think not.

In my observation, the only sure things in life are death and taxes.
:flowers:

I wasn't going to respond to Evakian but I just couldn't help myself. I guess I don't have free will.:lolhit:

So, are my choices and beliefs are outside of my control, and are they locked in concrete from birth?
Yes.

You have overcome your stuggles in life due to how you have reacted to outside stimulus, whether you are successful, or a failure, it was due to forces outside of your own volition.

I wasn't going to respond to Evakian but I just couldn't help myself. I guess I don't have free will.:lolhit:heheh :)

I realize that my environment, my upbringing, my current circumstances, and my body can and do affect my decisions. However, I still strongly believe in free will. I am freely able to choose all the options available to me at any given time. However, due to all the factors I noted above, that huge list of possible actions narrows to a smaller list of likely actions.
When I say I have free-will I am more or less saying that a cosmic force(fate, destiny) or being(God, etc) has not determined my actions in advance. The future is not known. Although I am likely to take a certian course of action, there is still the possibility that I will do something unexpected.

I realize that my environment, my upbringing, my current circumstances, and my body can and do affect my decisions. However, I still strongly believe in free will. I am freely able to choose all the options available to me at any given time. However, due to all the factors I noted above, that huge list of possible actions narrows to a smaller list of likely actions.

You have all those options, yet in a certain situation, you will pick just one choice. Those options are seen as free-will, yet before you are even given those options, it is already determined that you will make that one choice. In that exact scenario, you will always make the same choice.

There is only one way that the future will unfold. There are not several different possible futures.

I ate cereal for breakfast this morning, now I could have made eggs or toast and I often do, yet my mind reacted to the scenario that I was in and I made a choice to eat cereal. In the same situation (keep in mind that to be given a choice a second time is a different situation) I would always choose cereal. Essentially we have 'free-will' in that we can make choices, yet truthfully free-will is non-existent.

It would seem to depend on whether we are thinking of free will as a sensation or free will period. Like Blob said, I think it is unlikely to actually know whether there is free will because really how would you test it. On the other hand, it seems that almost everyone who believe in free will actually reach that conclusion through the ability to feel like decision-making is random. Basically it states that per pragmatism, if one is able to feel they are able to exercise free will it does not matter whether free will actually exists.

I refuse to accept the proposition that a new-born child's life is laid out the moment the birth occurs.
I refuse to believe to believe that we should not punish criminals because that is how they are somehow born or made by society. No, criminals are criminals by choice, not because it was pre-determined.
I refuse to attribute my success, or lack of, to my colour, race, creed, etc. It wasn't pre-determined, it was because of how determined I was.
I refuse to believe that we are pre-determined to be ruled by incompetent, or worse, politicians. We choose to be ruled that way.We can change it.
Of course our free will is continually constrained by the choices we make. Each choice adds more constraints; but they are OUR choices. If you decide to "not rock the boat", "go with the flow", "not make waves", etc., then that is YOUR choice. Sure there may be problems in your way, so what? Deal with them and move on. Don't blame society or other circumstances.

Guess what, I believe in free will rather than determinism.

I refuse to accept the proposition that a new-born child's life is laid out the moment the birth occurs.
I refuse to believe to believe that we should not punish criminals because that is how they are somehow born or made by society. No, criminals are criminals by choice, not because it was pre-determined.
I refuse to attribute my success, or lack of, to my colour, race, creed, etc. It wasn't pre-determined, it was because of how determined I was.
I refuse to believe that we are pre-determined to be ruled by incompetent, or worse, politicians. We choose to be ruled that way.We can change it.
Of course our free will is continually constrained by the choices we make. Each choice adds more constraints; but they are OUR choices. If you decide to "not rock the boat", "go with the flow", "not make waves", etc., then that is YOUR choice. Sure there may be problems in your way, so what? Deal with them and move on. Don't blame society or other circumstances.

Guess what, I believe in free will rather than determinism.
Great post :thumbs: If this board had a rep system, I'd +rep you.
Exactly what I was trying to say earlier. Even if you would always choose the same action in a specific situation, it is still you making the decision. No one is mapping out your life. You are not being mentally controlled by God or Fate or what have you. No matter how predictable you are, you still have free-choice.

I refuse to believe to believe that we should not punish criminals because that is how they are somehow born or made by society.
No one is saying that criminals don't deserve punishment.
No, criminals are criminals by choice, not because it was pre-determined.
Surely you have evidence to show that criminals are purely made by their own volition to do bad things?
We choose to be ruled that way.We can change it.
We can change it, but we can't change past decisions. As Wind said, you made the one decision, perhaps because you were supposed to, and not another. To me, this illustrates a degree of control over our lives we don't have.
Sure there may be problems in your way, so what? Deal with them and move on. Don't blame society or other circumstances.
What if society or other circumstances are to blame?

Case in point, say I were in a tribe, and could not feed my family because my region has few crops and fewer animals on which to feast, and we are going through a drought. If there was more food, I would go after it without a second thought, but it is not there and so I am left to deal with life as is. Or, say I was raised in a war-like tribe that practiced ritual sacrifice as well, and I leave the village one day, escaping the violent ways of my clan, to find a new tribe. That new tribe teaches me my past practices were abhorrent, but I was clearly made to think otherwise by my past society.

Basically it states that per pragmatism, if one is able to feel they are able to exercise free will it does not matter whether free will actually exists.Very well said - wish I'd thought of putting it like that!

What on earth have your points to do with free-will versus determinism?
They are more to do with good compared with bad choices and opportunity compared with disasters.
I obviously do not believe that we are pre-determined to make bad choices, nor that deaths due to disasters were predetermined at birth.
Of course our upbringing and environment will condition how we behave and react. The friends we choose, the clubs and associations we choose to join, even the forums we participate in, will further condition how we behave and react. Note that I say choose, there is nothing pre-determined here.

If your choices were being influenced by some force you would have no idea it was occurring. That sudden idea would seem like yours.
You my be very positive that you do or do not have free-will; ultimately the statement is only your opinion.

An influence on your will would not have to be the same as predetermined destiny. Occasional influences could occur with each situation that demands a particular type of choice.
Influence may only occur occasionally, in these situations, to keep you headed in a specific general direction of learning.
If this were true, the source of the occasional influence would remain hidden to prevent total dependence on it for decisions;a partial free-will would occur as a result.

Each decision, we call good or bad, carries us on a path of learning. A bad decision could be influenced to carry us down a path that we would not have normally gone down, yet it had information that we needed to be exposed to.

As I said on another post, it is against human nature to think that our will is influenced by any other than ourselves. This inherent aberration we have for giving up our will leads me to think that this would be the perfect cover for the source of influence, if it exists.

That's a good reminder that free-will vs. determinism is probably a meaningless dichotomy anyway, Dan.This inherent aberration we have for giving up our will leads me to think that this would be the perfect cover for the source of influence, if it exists.It's true that opinions on this issue tend to be based on indignation: "but... but... but... we simply must have free-will or I couldn't tolerate it!"

Case in point, say I were in a tribe, and could not feed my family because my region has few crops and fewer animals on which to feast, and we are going through a drought. If there was more food, I would go after it without a second thought, but it is not there and so I am left to deal with life as is. Or, say I was raised in a war-like tribe that practiced ritual sacrifice as well, and I leave the village one day, escaping the violent ways of my clan, to find a new tribe. That new tribe teaches me my past practices were abhorrent, but I was clearly made to think otherwise by my past society.
I said you have the freedom to choose from all avialable option. Just becuase your options are limited does not mean you lack free-will.

If your choices were being influenced by some force you would have no idea it was occurring. That sudden idea would seem like yours.
You my be very positive that you do or do not have free-will; ultimately the statement is only your opinion.

An influence on your will would not have to be the same as predetermined destiny. Occasional influences could occur with each situation that demands a particular type of choice.
Influence may only occur occasionally, in these situations, to keep you headed in a specific general direction of learning.
If this were true, the source of the occasional influence would remain hidden to prevent total dependence on it for decisions;a partial free-will would occur as a result.

Each decision, we call good or bad, carries us on a path of learning. A bad decision could be influenced to carry us down a path that we would not have normally gone down, yet it had information that we needed to be exposed to.

As I said on another post, it is against human nature to think that our will is influenced by any other than ourselves. This inherent aberration we have for giving up our will leads me to think that this would be the perfect cover for the source of influence, if it exists.

Fascinating.You have introduced another concept; one in which some, presumably unknown, intelligence is trying to guide us onto some specific path. obviously you may be correct.
Equally obviously you raise many other questions. What is the end purpose of this guidance? Are there more than one such intelligence guiding us? How does it function?

I had a similar discussion many years ago with a software engineer. His premise was that we nothing more than computer generated players in some super sophisticated "Sims Family" game played by aliens. He may be correct.