Yes Freethinker we all know this is you favorite petname for Bush, but that's not what I am talking about.

For those that do believe in God/Devil the bible and such. What are your thoughts?

I saw this show on the History Channel and it go me thinking. Being kind of theologically stuck in middle I am stuck now trying to decide what I think about this. So a quick recap into my dilema. Only two books in the Bible deal with the Apocolypse. The Book of Daniel in the old testament and Revelations in the new testament.

At the time that the Book of Daniel was written the Jews were controlled by an emperor who eventually demanded he be worshipped as a god. Many historians therefore believe the whole end times scenario is related to the Jewish struggle under this man. Therefore he would be the antichrist.

New Testament; Revelations - at this time Christians were being persecuted in grand style by Rome and the Emperor Nero. Again the historians claim a lot of the writings there in the book can be attributed to all lf this and Nero would then be the antichrist.

While a lot of that makes sense, something in my gut tells me it's too simple. Often times the simplest and easiest answer isn't always correct.

I believe there is a cosmic something out there concerned about us, however I also believe ther is another something out there trying to destroy us. So if you will God and the Devil. Now following the Judao-christian model if Christ was indeed the physical incarnation of God, trying to save us. Then it follows that the Devil would eventually do the same to try and destroy us.

The fantastical side of me wants to believe, it's the logical side that has a problem. So actually when it comes down to it, is the bible itself the divine word of God given to man and to be used so we can become godlike ourselves upon our deaths? Or is it simply an attempt by ancient peoples to try and explain the mysteries of life at a time when they seemed unexplainable?

Yes Freethinker we all know this is you favorite petname for Bush...

Now, that just isn't true.

My favorite pet name for GWBush is - *Despicable-Scum-Who-Lied-This-Nation-Into-War-And-Sent-2800-Soldiers-To-Their-Deaths-For-Nothing*

(I'll comment on the "AntiChrist" delusion later.)

Only two books in the Bible deal with the Apocolypse. The Book of Daniel in the old testament and Revelations in the new testament.



Read the books of Habakkuk and Haggai at the end of the OT.

There are more books mixed in with them but those two books are talking about something you might find familar. They'er short books, would only take 10 minutes or so to read them.

NIT version.
Habakkuk
2:17
The violence you have done to Lebanon will overwhelm you, and your destruction of animals will terrify you. For you have shed man's blood; you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them.

I am willing to bet bin Laden will be brought down by his own people because of what those two books say.

If those two books interest you at all, then you should read the book of Zephahiah. After reading it watch what happens to the world over the course of the next two years. For now just pay attention to Korea.

Inviolable, that link you provided about end times is really funny!!!

The fantastical side of me wants to believe, it's the logical side that has a problem. So actually when it comes down to it, is the bible itself the divine word of God given to man and to be used so we can become godlike ourselves upon our deaths? Or is it simply an attempt by ancient peoples to try and explain the mysteries of life at a time when they seemed unexplainable?
I'd answer "Both" but I lean toward the idea that the Bible is just another work of mythology. Still, I have a certian amount of respect for most of the NT, as it seems much more historically possible (whereas the OT has been proven to be non-literal).
I believe there is a cosmic something out there concerned about us, however I also believe ther is another something out there trying to destroy us. So if you will God and the Devil. Now following the Judao-christian model if Christ was indeed the physical incarnation of God, trying to save us. Then it follows that the Devil would eventually do the same to try and destroy us.
I believe in an ultimate good force but I do not believe in a equal, opposing evil force. I believe true evil is the result of free-will and is not supernatural in origin. I do subscribe to the idea of demons/oni, but I do not believe they affect us in the Christian fashion. So to answer your question, I do not currently believe that any evil force will manifest itself on Earth in an Anti-Christ-like fashion.

ps. Do you consider yourself Agnostic? I myself am a pagan.

I believe true evil is the result of free-will and is not supernatural in origin. I do subscribe to the idea of demons/oni, but I do not believe they affect us in the Christian fashion. So to answer your question, I do not currently believe that any evil force will manifest itself on Earth in an Anti-Christ-like fashion.
I like your explanation of that. I would agree.

. I believe true evil is the result of free-will and is not supernatural in origin.


I know of a lot of theist who say the Anti Christ is the result of free will, it puts the Anti Christ everwhere.

Personaly I think if you take a little bit of everything from everyone and gel it together you can see what is false and what isn't.

Inviolable, that link you provided about end times is really funny!!!

Thank you, I put it in my sig hoping to get some laughs from it and to get a small message across of how I feel we are progressing as people.
Replace China with Korea :lolhit:
Ultimately, it's a warning by myself about Jesus return.

Pendragon, I believe that which we call god is on the level of sub-atomic particles. People tend to think big, like if you had a soul would it be the same size as you?
No, I think, that if we have a soul it is small enough to join the egg at conception it must be sub-atomic.

Sub-atomic particles could very well enforce the statement that god is in all things.

God is within us.

God is in all places;quantum physics deals with particles that are not in one location. They are here and there, I think without the same restrictions of time distance, as we know it.

I believe that an awareness may exist on this level;a combined intelligence.

Some aware people seem to have used religions to explain, in limited terminologies that we can comprehend, a world that co-exists with ours. A vast universe of smallness that is intertwined in our perceptive world and effects it in a manner that we can only imagine.

When you dream, how small is the screen, how big is the reality?

Real Sorcerer, I honestly don't know. I know the contemporary christian experience just leaves me questioning instead of leading me to actually believe in anything. While I do believe in something greater than myself is out there, I have no real framework that I claim summarizes my beliefs.

I knew a Pagan at my last job. At least he claimed to be. At times I think he was just trying real hard to piss off his catholic parents. Still he was well read and seemed to know quite a bit. I do have a question, that he never really answered. Paganism: most of my life I grew up with the idea of it being a word for any non or pre-christian beliefs system. i.e. the Celts were Pagans, that kind of thing. My friend obviously tried to explain the difference in what a true pagan is. But he ofter would get off the point. Is the religion truly worshipping the lifeforce of the planet, or is there more going on? Just curious.

THe free will concept intrigues me. I've decided I will have to do a little research.

Invioble thanks for the hint. I don't have a bilble right now, since the move all of the books in the old house are in storage. So I will have to check out the references on line but it does give me someplace to start.

While I do belive in the existence of an Almighty, I put zero faith into the bible. Yeah, it may be the oldest book written, but for me, at best, it's a fairly well written story book of somebody's version of history. As such, I don't buy the possibility of an anti-christ for I tend to believe the existence of such was created by someone else when they directed the tome to be re-written to their way of thinking. Organized religion is complete bullshit, as described by one of my favorite philosophers, G. Carlin. WhileI was sent to parochial schools during my formatve years, I shed those teachings long ago.

Real Sorcerer, I honestly don't know. I know the contemporary christian experience just leaves me questioning instead of leading me to actually believe in anything. While I do believe in something greater than myself is out there, I have no real framework that I claim summarizes my beliefs.
Are you familiar with the term "Agnostic"? I know quite a few. They are sort of a combo of weak theism and weak atheism. Agnostics favor the search for truth and knowledge, but they are not really a religion per say.
I knew a Pagan at my last job. At least he claimed to be. At times I think he was just trying real hard to piss off his catholic parents. Still he was well read and seemed to know quite a bit. I do have a question, that he never really answered. Paganism: most of my life I grew up with the idea of it being a word for any non or pre-christian beliefs system. i.e. the Celts were Pagans, that kind of thing. My friend obviously tried to explain the difference in what a true pagan is. But he ofter would get off the point. Is the religion truly worshipping the lifeforce of the planet, or is there more going on? Just curious.
Pagan is a very generic, catch-all term. It groups together a lot of smaller religions (Asatru, Wicca, Druidism, etc) and personal religions (like mine). Its not really a single organised faith. Most pagans revere nature, and many worship/respect a god(ess) of some kind. Often such gods are older dieties from ancient pantheons (Zues, Artemis, Isis, Ra, Odin, etc). Paganism is also associated with magic and rituals and such, though not all pagans actually practice these. Sometimes people will wrongly say all non-Christian religions are pagan. Buddhism, Hinduism, and other religions are not really defined as pagan.
THe free will concept intrigues me. I've decided I will have to do a little research.
I see free-will as a sort of "gift" from the divine. Free-will includes the ability to make any decision, and unfortunately evil is a natural consequence of this.

I see free-will as a sort of "gift" from the divine. Free-will includes the ability to make any decision, and unfortunately evil is a natural consequence of this.
==============================================

Do we really know for sure that we have complete free-will.
We really do not know if an idea is ours or a subconscious plant. It would seem to be our idea, but would not be.

The other day I started out of the house, closed the front door, and found myself just standing on the porch for several seconds. I could not figure why.
I got into my car and headed toward town. When I reached the first red light a Jeep Cherokee ran the red light at the intersection just seconds ahead of me. I immediately thought of the seconds that I hesitated on the front porch that kept me out of the path of the Cherokee.

a friend of mine is married to the antichrist

a friend of mine is married to the antichrist
===========================================

Anyone against christ is antichrist.

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Do we really know for sure that we have complete free-will.
We really do not know if an idea is ours or a subconscious plant. It would seem to be our idea, but would not be.
Well, I don't know that I have free-will. The only real way to find that out is to prove or disprove that someone is controling your actions. Obviously, if someone is controlling your actions, they would have to want to be discovered.
The other day I started out of the house, closed the front door, and found myself just standing on the porch for several seconds. I could not figure why.
I got into my car and headed toward town. When I reached the first red light a Jeep Cherokee ran the red light at the intersection just seconds ahead of me. I immediately thought of the seconds that I hesitated on the front porch that kept me out of the path of the Cherokee.
I've had similiar experiences. Perhaps its random chance. Perhaps its fate. Perhaps it was a psychic preminition of the future. If an outside force really did will you to wait, is it controlling everything you do? Or did it just feel the need to interupt your free-will in order to help you?

These questions at more at 11:00.:@@:

a friend of mine is married to the antichristbaaahahaha!

==============================================

Do we really know for sure that we have complete free-will.
We really do not know if an idea is ours or a subconscious plant. It would seem to be our idea, but would not be.

The other day I started out of the house, closed the front door, and found myself just standing on the porch for several seconds. I could not figure why.
I got into my car and headed toward town. When I reached the first red light a Jeep Cherokee ran the red light at the intersection just seconds ahead of me. I immediately thought of the seconds that I hesitated on the front porch that kept me out of the path of the Cherokee.
Wow, that's cool Dan, I looooooooooooove when that stuff happens. Now when I forget something and have to return to the house or when I am delayed for whatever reason it never irritates me. I just take it that I am where I am when I am supposed to be there and let it rest. Everything works together when we allow it to.
As for free will, I would like to think that we have it to a degree. Our genetic components certainly influence us as do our personal life circumstances but within that we make choices I think.

This is kinda off-topic, but maybe not.

We were discussing plane wrecks and casualties involved in such--hundreds of people all dying at once.

A friend noted that it was everyone's fate to die that day; that if they had not been on that plane, they would have died that day in another manner.

It got me to thinking.......
I've never looked at plane wrecks quite the same way since.

Thanks for the clarification Sorcerer. That is more of what I thought, and it makes sense.

I believe we have free will, but every now and then we do get a nudge to try and do the right thing.

Rednova, thanks for the thought. Everyone has stories like that, or knows someone that has such experiences, I never thought about fate too much hmmmm?

This is kinda off-topic, but maybe not.

We were discussing plane wrecks and casualties involved in such--hundreds of people all dying at once.

A friend noted that it was everyone's fate to die that day; that if they had not been on that plane, they would have died that day in another manner.

It got me to thinking.......
I've never looked at plane wrecks quite the same way since.
It's a debatable concept. My partner uses it to justify everything he does that I do not want him to do. :) The last marathon he did, a guy dropped dead at 41 years old. When I tell him he is old (57) to push himself so hard, it is an extreme sport and men younger than him die at these things, he says "yeah but you believe our days are precisely numbered. Therefore I would die regardless of what I was doing". I have no argument since that is exactly what I believe.

Have you seen those bizarre tales where people should have died and against all odds lived. I think they lived because it was not yet their time.

I do believe however, that one should look after one's health and choose to exercise and eat well because you may not die till the year 2040 but you may still have to be attached to oxygen or have clogged arteries and a limited life style for many, many years.

==============================================

Do we really know for sure that we have complete free-will.
We really do not know if an idea is ours or a subconscious plant. It would seem to be our idea, but would not be.

I'm also not sure that there is any meaningful difference between the two.


The other day I started out of the house, closed the front door, and found myself just standing on the porch for several seconds. I could not figure why.
I got into my car and headed toward town. When I reached the first red light a Jeep Cherokee ran the red light at the intersection just seconds ahead of me. I immediately thought of the seconds that I hesitated on the front porch that kept me out of the path of the Cherokee.

I think it's natural to wonder about those seconds that you hesitated on your porch, but what would you have thought if you had been involved in an accident? (assuming of course it didn't involve your unfortunate demise) :)

I can't accept the idea of a "subconcious plant" because that implies a planter, and that planter would be motivated by something other than randomness I would presume. The problem with that idea is that such things happen in such an obviously random fashion as to defy analysis and any attempts to divine the planter's motives.

Why didn't you get T-boned by the Cherokee? Random chance. You weren't "in the wrong place at the wrong time". Why did you hesitate on the porch? Who knows, but there are a hundred benign and plausible explanations that don't involve the supernatural or mystical.

[QUOTE=Real Sorceror
I've had similiar experiences. Perhaps its random chance. Perhaps its fate. Perhaps it was a psychic preminition of the future. If an outside force really did will you to wait, is it controlling everything you do? Or did it just feel the need to interupt your free-will in order to help you?[/QUOTE]
==================================================
Could be either I suppose.
I do not think that it is true to human nature to believe that we do not have total free-will.

I think it's natural to wonder about those seconds that you hesitated on your porch, but what would you have thought if you had been involved in an accident? (assuming of course it didn't involve your unfortunate demise) :)
================
I probably would have thought"damn I wish I had not hesitated on the porch."



I can't accept the idea of a "subconscious plant" because that implies a planter, and that planter would be motivated by something other than randomness I would presume. The problem with that idea is that such things happen in such an obviously random fashion as to defy analysis and any attempts to divine the planter's motives.QUOTE.
=================
That is fine with me, I merely share and do not attempt to change anyone's thinking along such lines.

Could be that what we call at random is actually a selective process. I know, that would require a selector. I hope one day we fully understand the subconscious and its limits.


Why didn't you get T-boned by the Cherokee? Random chance. You weren't "in the wrong place at the wrong time". Why did you hesitate on the porch? Who knows, but there are a hundred benign and plausible explanations that don't involve the supernatural or mystical.
===========================

I was in the right place at the right time. What happened could be completely natural; supernatural or mystical would only be discriptive of our not knowing.

Why even think about the seconds you waited on the porch at all if youre just going to disclude it?

I do not think that it is true to human nature to believe that we do not have total free-will.
Unless you're a damn, dirty Calvinist. :p

Yes, your days may be precisely numbered, but there is no statement (I know of) regarding the quality of life you will have during those days.

Why even think about the seconds you waited on the porch at all if youre just going to disclude it?
===============================

My intention was not to disclude the occurance. Merely to say that the things we call supernatural or mystical may simply be influences from a source that is perfectly natural.

===============================

My intention was not to disclude the occurance. Merely to say that the things we call supernatural or mystical may simply be influences from a source that is perfectly natural.


So youre looking for a higher power or there is no higher power, its just how physics work?

===============================

My intention was not to disclude the occurance. Merely to say that the things we call supernatural or mystical may simply be influences from a source that is perfectly natural.
Some people actually define the supernatural as an unexplained natural occurance.

So youre looking for a higher power or there is no higher power, its just how physics work?
================================================== ======
Hmmm, how to answer this. I am actually having a little trouble putting it into words, OK, I'll try.

I do not feel that I am looking for a higher power. I would not have to seek the source of any influences in my life; the source would already be there.
I would just try to gain sensitivity to those times that it is intervening. Give more thought to those "gut feelings" we get, before making a decision.

I do believe there is influence in our lives;the words "higher power" seem to be more of a religious phrase than what I am trying to describe.

My references to certain branches of physics are because I believe this is the method by which certain discoveries will be made to give concrete proof that there are external forces at work which control the order or disorder of events, and that this force is the basic make up of all that is. Including us. That events are not always random.

I do believe that we have a direct link to this force, that is not a force. It just is. I use the term "natural" because, to me, it describes the everyday occurrences without the mystical overtures that man tends to place on those occurrences that he does not fully understand. In describing this influence some might say he, I might say it. This is an interesting concept to me, in the English language, when gender is unknown, "she" or "her" is usually applied.

If the bottom line question is: do I believe "god" exists, the answer would be yes. Yet, the definition of god does not fit into the description of what I believe exists. To me, the word is too confining to one central figure. Although, mentally having one central figure does offer convince in attempting to influence, through prayer or meditation, these natural forces, for a particular outcome. I would suppose that this is the main reason prophets that were attune with this natural occurrence would describe it as god. Use of the word god gives instructions a certain acceptance and removes the need for much unnecessary explanation; the word more or less "cuts-the-chase" and allows one to get directly to the meat of the matter.

In general,when speaking to people, a good orator that begins his statements with the words "god says" or "god said" increases the credibility of his words that follow the statement.

To me, this increased credibility is the main reason that I feel that the good parts of mans' religions is a necessity. It allows a teaching of positive facts to an audience that normally would not listen.
Unfortunately, it also gives a certain credence to those that would teach their own negative ideas to their receptive audience. This aspect is what I often speak against.

I hope, that my somewhat long-winded-purely-personal-rant, has answered your question as to my views.

Yes, your days may be precisely numbered, but there is no statement (I know of) regarding the quality of life you will have during those days.
That's why you have to take care of yourself physically, mentally and emotionally.

While I do belive in the existence of an Almighty, I put zero faith into the bible. Yeah, it may be the oldest book written......

Not by a long shot is it the oldest.

Ptah-Hotep was a philosopher in Egypt in 2400 BC, and wrote a book that predated the Bible by around 2600 years.

The anti-christ and the false prophet are jews, one comming in the likness
of Elisha, making fire come down from heaven and the false messiah or christ
who will bow down to Satan and recieve the kingdoms of the earth.
The Jews would never accept a non Jew as their messiah. They will imitate
the truth with a lie and the world will fall for it.

The anti-christ and the false prophet are jews, one comming in the likness
of Elisha, making fire come down from heaven and the false messiah or christ
who will bow down to Satan and recieve the kingdoms of the earth.
The Jews would never accept a non Jew as their messiah. They will imitate
the truth with a lie and the world will fall for it.

I must be having a "Senior" moment, because I have no idea what you are to communicate.

The anti-christ and the false prophet are jews, one comming in the likness
of Elisha, making fire come down from heaven and the false messiah or christ
who will bow down to Satan and recieve the kingdoms of the earth.
The Jews would never accept a non Jew as their messiah. They will imitate
the truth with a lie and the world will fall for it.
=======================================

Speaking of wana-be prophets.....What the hell are you, going from post to post with your drunken ravings.

Many years ago I found two kittens. I don't know where they came from but I decided to bring them into my house. One male and one female. My house was warm and comfortable and I provided them with everything they needed...balls of yarn, soft pillows to lie on, clean litter, wind up toys, bowls of milk, catnip and so on. They were amused, curious, entertained and comforted. I also provided them with all of the food (even fresh salmon) they desired and they showed me much love. I was their world. I gave them free run of the house and they were happy. They even began to act like me and mimic a few of my behaviors and that gave me much enjoyment. All was good in my house.

My only rule was that they were not to eat from the bowl labeled "Friskies" even though I always laid it out for them and it smelled and looked good. It glistened with moist gravy. I told them, as I pointed to the bowl, that this processed meal was evil and was never to be consumed. Like children, they looked at me, not knowing of the concept of processed food or evil, and merrily went about their way.

One day, while checking on my kittens, I noticed that the bowl of Friskies had had a visitor. Someone had eaten some of the forbidden food. I stood up and raised my voice screaming "Who ate the f@^ing Friskies"? Both small kittens ran away in shame and fear. In a demonstration of my power over them I picked them both up by the scrubs of their necks and cast them outside into the snow to suffer and that all of their children and their children's children would suffer for lo, the eating of Friskies was forbidden and these small, curious beasts defied my will and I considered that evil.

Some of the kitten children developed rabies while some got distemper and all had to fight the cold and hunt for their food and remove the knots from their fur. Some starved, some were flattened by cars, some were set on fire by neglected human children and some were ripped to shreds by packs of wandering dogs.

Some even fought their own kind for better hunting grounds, bless their furry little heads, While others began to fight their own kind for sport. I did not like those type of cats though they still had faith in me. Some even said that I had told them to do these things (These children's children had never seen me but claimed that I communicated to them through secret messages that they were chosen to receive).

Amazing creatures, these generations of cats, that for all of their hardships in the outside world (over time they began to believe that I created the whole outdoors for them as a test of some kind), many still loved me unconditionally and wanted to return to my house and live in comfort forever and ever. They told stories to their kittens about someday returning to comfort and eternal pampering and those who rejected this notion were set aside and not to be trusted. After all, what kind of crazy beast doesn't want to be pampered? Especially the one who had the most hardship and the ones who were already accustomed to pampering).

Actually, the retuning part was not surprising as their lives were very difficult and full of danger, it was the loving part that I found most peculiar. Maybe it was just instinct afterall. They called it faith.

Some claimed to see my image in heaps of yummy garbage and it was good. They just knew that I was sending messages to them and it reinforced their love, for they considered me all loving and good and called my house "EDEN". It seems that they needed something to believe in and hope for something other than their daily hardships.

(my house, made of brick and wood and glass, was demolished years ago by the city but don't tell the cats...they wouldn't know what to do)

Tapeworm...first of all...hello, haven't seen you in ages...
Second...I enjoyed the kitten analogy...nicely done!

Tapeworm...first of all...hello, haven't seen you in ages...
Second...I enjoyed the kitten analogy...nicely done!


Thanks Sal. It could have been better, but it's Friday night and it's time to go party.
Hey, not to hijack this thread but, do you live anywhere near Toronto? I was just up there about 2 weeks ago (I used to go every summer when I was a kid because my mother's side of the family is from there. My parents thought it would be good for me, especially my dad who came from the US south....looking back, they were right) for a few days and my wife and I actually started looking at a few houses (not that we can afford one but dreaming is free). I found the people there wonderful and would love to move up there pemanently some day. Now that I'm older, I can really appreciate that city and her inhabitants.

I am quite sure America would be more than happy to be rid of me.

Thanks Sal. It could have been better, but it's Friday night and it's time to go party.
Hey, not to hijack this thread but, do you live anywhere near Toronto? I was just up there about 2 weeks ago (I used to go every summer when I was a kid because my mother's side of the family is from there. My parents thought it would be good for me, especially my dad who came from the US south....looking back, they were right) for a few days and my wife and I actually started looking at a few houses (not that we can afford one but dreaming is free). I found the people there wonderful and would love to move up there pemanently some day. Now that I'm older, I can really appreciate that city and her inhabitants.

I am quite sure America would be more than happy to be rid of me.
I live fairly close to Toronto ... about an hour's drive... many people in my city commute into Toronto to work... Have you heard of Octoberfest? That's my city...the Kitchener, Waterloo area. Much smaller than TO... it's a good compromise if you don't have the money to buy a house in Toronto... Also you should consider the city of Guelph. Much cheaper to buy homes in. We're pretty laid back here if you can stand the winters... :)

a friend of mine is married to the antichrist


LMAO!!!

Recently I bought a large fish tank with a very nice stand, filter, lid and lights. The lights were timed to dim for evening and eventualy fade into an off position to simulate the evening turning into night time. The filter was an undergravel filter with a wave adjuster to simulate waves across the surface of the water. I filled it with sand, gravel and rocks. I made hiding places and added seaweed and a nice bubble machine to keep the water fresh.
All I needed now was fish.

I wasn't sure what kind of fish to get because I wanted to make sure there was harmony in my tank. So I slowly bought fish to fill up the tank so I could see how they would all get along.

My first fish was the friendliest fish I could think of to buy, a gold fish. A few guppies followed and then some very shy bottom feeders. On my trips to the pet store I seen many different kinds of critters to put in my tank. Snails, small eels of sorts and some interesting fish that you could see through. I purchased them all.

Soon harmony ran supreme in my tank and the fish, critters and eels all seemed to thrive.
Until one day the first fish I got, the gold fish got it in his head he didn't need me any more. He had seaweed to eat and thats all he really needed. So I continued to clean the tank and feed the rest of the fish their treats and fish flakes and leave the gold fish to do as it would with out me.

Days went on and the fish all happy in their world began to notice the gold fish wasnt eating the treats or flakes of food I dropped in the tank. One after another the gold fish explained to them how they really didnt need me and one after the other all the fish and critters with in my tank recoiled from the treats and fish flakes I put in the tank.

Soon they began to rebel when I cleaned the tank.

So to keep the harmony in the tank I left them alone all together.

Feeling justified in leaving the fish to their own accord as it was their wishes, I stopped paying attention to them completely.
A few months went by and I began to wonder how the fish were doing, so I made my way to the big fish tank.

Has I got closer to the tank I noticed the glass had built up a green fungis. The filters had gotten so clogged that they stopped working altogether. I grabbed my fish net to move the thick green moss on the surface of the water aside to make an attempt to look in the water. While I pushed the bile aside with the net I noticed the gold fish dead and caught up in the mess of green slime. I fished through the soupy mix only to find more critters and fish floating dead in the mix.

I began to clean out the tank, looking for servivers until I came across the bottom feeder. The bottom feeder seemed shocked to see me. I asked if he was all right and he replied, "just fine" He then asked me why I didn't reply to any of the others cry for help. I told him I left them alone as they wished.

The bottom feeder thought for a minute and then told me, Now that I know what will happen when youre not around will you stay and look after me?

I said yes and apologised for his friends fate.
I then made him a promise that even if I got more fish I would never leave him alone.

Moral of stories: When you get Goldfish, immediately feed them to your cats!

:thumbs:

We're pretty laid back here if you can stand the winters... :)


I'm in Buffalo...my city was literaly flattened by snow this weekend. 320,000 still without power or heat.

Who the hell's turn was it to clean the fishbowl!!!
:D

I'm in Buffalo...my city was literaly flattened by snow this weekend. 320,000 still without power or heat.

Who the hell's turn was it to clean the fishbowl!!!
:D
Come north...AFTER you clean the fish bowl.. :D

Recently I bought a large fish tank with a very nice stand, filter, lid and lights. .........
All I needed now was fish.............. harmony ran supreme in my tank .........the gold fish got it in his head he didn't need me any more...........to keep the harmony in the tank I left them alone all together....yadda yadda yadda......The bottom feeder seemed shocked to see me.,and then told me, Now that I know what will happen when youre not around will you stay and look after me?


What a goofy parable attempting to counter Tapeworm's story of the kittens.

You are ignorant of one thing; neither I nor any other human on Earth need any imaginary fucking friend-up-above to "feed" us or take care of us

What a goofy parable attempting to counter Tapeworm's story of the kittens.

You are ignorant of one thing; neither I nor any other human on Earth need any imaginary fucking friend-up-above to "feed" us or take care of us
True, nobody needs God to survive, but that doesn't mean He isn't there.

ps. watch your language.

True, nobody needs God to survive, but that doesn't mean He isn't there.


More importantly, it does absolutely nothing to prove that he IS there.

But then, in 120,000 years of homo sapiens having been on this planet, the entire body of *proof* of the existence of some supernatural being watching over us is............

.........NOTHING.

Zero. Nada. Zip.

Not one shred. Nothing.

To those capable of rational thought, the fact that ZERO evidence exists or has ever existed leads toward a certain reasoned conclusion.........

More importantly, it does absolutely nothing to prove that he IS there.
Yes, I know. We've been over that.
But then, in 120,000 years of homo sapiens having been on this planet, the entire body of *proof* of the existence of some supernatural being watching over us is............

.........NOTHING.
Have you considered that maybe God can only be experienced on a personal level?
To those capable of rational thought, the fact that ZERO evidence exists or has ever existed leads toward a certain reasoned conclusion.........
Thats fine. I understand why you are an athiest. I don't hold it against you, nor do I see myself as superior.

I go with the mass consensus that it was Emperor Nero.

[QUOTE=Real Sorceror
Have you considered that maybe God can only be experienced on a personal level?
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An interesting thought Sorceror; a non-believer would never see evidence of a god.

Sorry I can’t be too brief, but your question was kind of long too. Still, I will be as brief as possible. What you read in the Books of Daniel and Revelations are acutely similar, which means one confirms the other. Also, please be advised that this world is under the 'allocated' monarchal rule of satan, which was his intent by getting Adam and Eve to eat from the tree God had told them not to.

Before I explain the above, it is important that you, first, understand what God is. Jesus said that “God is a Spirit.” He also said God gives no consideration to the flesh. This means that His relationship with Adam was not with his outer man but rather the real man, meaning Adam's spiritual man. Now Adam had authority over all on this earth, but when he obeyed Satan over God he handed over that authority to the one he obeyed over God. (As you noted, there are rules and conditions in God's realm that we are not privy to. Of course, Satan was privy to this one, which is why he initiated his move on Eve to eat the fruit).

Adam now fell under the dominion of Satan, which caused sin to be released into the world (see Romans 5:12). God had told Adam that he would die if he ate from that tree and he did die… spiritually. That same dubious birthright befalls all who are born after him. That is why we must be "born again," otherwise we are in danger of living and dying under the authority of the prince of this world, who happens to be the devil (see John 12:30-32). Knowing this explains a lot when we consider all that is going on in the world. Also consider that if we’re born spiritually dead and we die spiritually dead (meaning we avoid connecting with God while in life) then where do we end up?

Now, the following events are to come. The Rapture, which will remove the church (God's people) from the world. This will leave behind an acutely immoral and callous-minded imbalance complete with all the corruptions and evils that go along with it. So, at some point, people will want order, which opens the door for one charismatic man to step in as world leader. We have accounts throughout history, and even now, how absolute power corrupts absolutely. Well he will declare himself as god and demand to be worshipped. Three and a half years of this and Jesus returns to destroy the antichrist, imprison the spirit that possessed him (who is satan), and lock satan away for 1,000 years.

Now those who become Christians and (it appears) those who did not take the mark of "the beast" nor worship him are the ones who will transition into this 1,000 year season with Jesus as ruler. It appears to me that this 1,000-year period is likened to a test, because, at its close, the Bible tells us that satan will be released and will tempt many to wage battle against the Lord. Not only will he lose, this event will take care of all the remaining weak leaks who will be banished into the lake of fire along with him. The rest will transition into eternity on the new heaven and new earth that is still to come.

I highly recommend that you buy "The 1,000 Year Survival Guide" that's available everywhere books are sold (it's normally $21, but on Amazon.com it’s only $13). There is a website with excerpts from the book @ http://www.survivalguide1000.com.

Sorry I can’t bee too brief, but your question was kind of long too. etc etc etc....
Everybody can give explanations, of whatever kind and color in the field of "subjective" matters.. When humans enter the field of the subjective world give answers according to believes, not about proven facts, since there is no way to prove that these explanations are the "truth", or "the holy truth". The Christians, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddists, and everyone else have answers.
Don't look anywhere else if you believe in the "AntiChrist" for he is out there, almost everyday on TV. The Politicians, the Corporations, the Lawyers, and the despicable (happy now!) Pat Robertson ...

Don't look anywhere else if you believe in the "AntiChrist" for he is out there, almost everyday on TV. The Politicians, the Corporations, the Lawyers, and fuckin' Pat Robertson ...
We can say "fuck"? Kick ass!

We can say "fuck"? Kick ass!
===========================================

Yes, but you will find that most here have a very good mental library of words and do not have to resort to an extreme amount of slang to fill in the gaps.

I use to be Wiccan and then I got over my "different" phase. :)

We can say "fuck"? Kick ass!
:lolhit: People have said far worse on this forum. I hope you were being sarcastic about not thinking you could cuss.