A Canadian man was recently released form prison in Syria after it was determined he had no ties to Al-Quaida after all.

Interesting article which addresses the notion that we don't use methods that amount to "torture", and the notion that the only people who are subjected to this kind of treatment are "terrorists".

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/world/americas/19canada.html?ex=1316318400&en=f1496d535bec4121&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss

A Canadian man was recently released form prison in Syria after it was determined he had no ties to Al-Quaida after all.

Interesting article which addresses the notion that we don't use methods that amount to "torture", and the notion that the only people who are subjected to this kind of treatment are "terrorists".

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/world/americas/19canada.html?ex=1316318400&en=f1496d535bec4121&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss
Yes, I like the use of the label "out sourcing terror". Pretty much one's worst nightmare realized because the RCMP jumped the gun and the US lied about what would happen to him.

Its a good thing we have people like pagan around stopping all our efforts to get data from the terrorists or we would have become just like them by now. Becasue we all know if we torture a terrorist, then they have already won.

Its a good thing we have people like pagan around stopping all our efforts to get data from the terrorists or we would have become just like them by now. Becasue we all know if we torture a terrorist, then they have already won.

Yeah but Trav this guy wasn't a terrorist that was the point. He was just a regular guy who got caught in the system. Misinformation when acted upon can bring grief to anybody. That's why there must always be checks and balances or the terrorists win because they manipulate us into limiting our own freedom.
What are the chances of such misinformation affecting us...really, really small...except if it happened to you, it would feel, really, really, big.

Its a good thing we have people like pagan around stopping all our efforts to get data from the terrorists or we would have become just like them by now.

What the hell are you talking about?


Becasue we all know if we torture a terrorist, then they have already won.


Obviously you posted this in the wrong thread because it has no relevancy to the topic of this one.

Its a good thing we have people like pagan around stopping all our efforts to get data from the terrorists or we would have become just like them by now. Becasue we all know if we torture a terrorist, then they have already won.


HELLO...he's not a terrorist.

It's one of those things. Doing our best to combat terrorism, trying to keep our countries safe, from time to time, the innocent are going to get caught up as the U.S. and Canada tries to find out who's a terrorist and who's not.

I'll lay the blame for this entire incident directly at the feet of the Islamists. If they hadn't started up this ruckus, that man would've never been suspected, dammit.

It's one of those things. Doing our best to combat terrorism, trying to keep our countries safe, from time to time, the innocent are going to get caught up as the U.S. and Canada tries to find out who's a terrorist and who's not.

While I agree to some extent - things like this are inevitable in war no matter how hard you try - I don't think we're trying very hard.

I'll lay the blame for this entire incident directly at the feet of the Islamists. If they hadn't started up this ruckus, that man would've never been suspected, dammit.

Again, I agree to a point, but the entire blame? I don't think so. See, this is where those pesky trial things might be nice, but some people on this board seem to think that if we have someone in custody, they must have been doing something wrong.

I'll lay the blame for this entire incident directly at the feet of the Islamists. If they hadn't started up this ruckus, that man would've never been suspected, dammit.Darth after the lynching:

"Well, mebbe we did hang the wrong nigger. But it ain't our fault! We never would've hung 'im if'n there warn't others as deserved such, dammit!"

The whole story makes me wonder about the saying "The Mounties always get their man"

I'll lay the blame for this entire incident directly at the feet of the Islamists. If they hadn't started up this ruckus, that man would've never been suspected, dammit.

Pretty pathetic Darth.

Darth after the lynching:

"Well, mebbe we did hang the wrong nigger. But it ain't our fault! We never would've hung 'im if'n there warn't others as deserved such, dammit!"
Oh, great...

Another FT. :)

That aside, there's only one thing wrong with your analogy here: the blacks didn't do anything wrong. The Islamists, on the other hand, have. The culpability shoots straight through their ranks like greased lightening. We hear CLERICS and "scholars" calling for the death of Americans, and you people feel badly for the poor, mistreated, misunderstood little Muslim man who loves the west and prays to Allah 10 times a day for world peace. Give it a rest. We fucked up. Next time, I hope we'll be a little more careful (although, deep down, I'm hoping not much). I'd rather not risk a city by being "PC" just to appease the the lofy notions of vilepagan types. Sorry.

I'll lay the blame for this entire incident directly at the feet of the Islamists.

But it's not okay for terrorists to blow up some civis and blame America for "making this necessary?" Same thing, isn't it?

Oh, great...

Another FT. :)Alas, no. I'll never equal his scathing sarcasm. And I'm mad at myself for missing the right ending. Should have been 'dernit!'.That aside, there's only one thing wrong with your analogy here: the blacks didn't do anything wrong. The Islamists, on the other hand, have.Blacks never did anything wrong? Whatever, I see your point and no analogy is perfect. Still, Darth is placing the blame entirely on 'the Islamists', a position that defies logic. At least you are willing to admit we made a mistake. And I'd ask each of you who 'the Islamists' are. Are they everyone who believes in Islam or just the Imams and terrorists? A clarification would be helpful.

And I'm mad at myself for missing the right ending. Should have been 'dernit!'.
Yes, "dernit" would have been more "in character", but ending it the way you did was hilarious. The character departure (from Jim Bob Mississippi to Darth) is what made it funny, IMHO.
And I'd ask each of you who 'the Islamists' are. Are they everyone who believes in Islam or just the Imams and terrorists? A clarification would be helpful.
I'd say it's an amalgam of radical Imams and "scholars" (75% of them), radical followers (25% of them, which I casually refer to as "Islamo-fascists"), and of course, we can't forget the terrorists.

Blacks never did anything wrong?
I see your point, and I'll raise you a "not really at the time".

Can any of you guys who support the war on terror actually admit that someone fucked up? Come on! They BLEW it and you still don't condemn them for that. Darth, you're blaming the torture of an innocent man on Islamsts??? That's just unreal...

Islamists are more likely to commit terrorism so it's the Islamists' fault that the guy was tortured even though he was innocent?

Using that logic; blacks are more likely to commit crimes, if we torture them, it's the races' fault that WE tortured them. It's not our fault then. How can you be so blind????

Hey, if torturing the wrong guy is OK then we could go back to early Communist China and torture people until they admitted to the crimes.

Using that logic; blacks are more likely to commit crimes, if we torture them, it's the races' fault that WE tortured them. It's not our fault then. How can you be so blind????
Sometimes, you just got to call it what it is. We're human beings; we're not perfect. In a large way, our societal maxims (the way we behave, our respect for life, etc.) mean nothing to the Muslims. Should we be cautious? Absolutely, but don't be clouded by lofty ideals or thoughts of utopianism - it's a fool's paradise.

That aside, there's only one thing wrong with your analogy here: the blacks didn't do anything wrong. The Islamists, on the other hand, have. The culpability shoots straight through their ranks like greased lightening.

Wouldn't it be more efficient, security-wise, if we focused our efforts on the culpable ones rather than just randomly torturing muslims in the hope that we get lucky and nab a terrorist?


We hear CLERICS and "scholars" calling for the death of Americans, and you people feel badly for the poor, mistreated, misunderstood little Muslim man who loves the west and prays to Allah 10 times a day for world peace. Give it a rest.

You give it a rest. I post an article that details the most egregious abuses by our government and all you can come up with are sarcastic comments about muslims. This isn't about whether or not you like muslims Prae, it's about our government torturing people.


We fucked up.

Ya think?

The problem is Prae, that I suspect you and I think they "fucked up" for different reasons. You think they fucked up because they got the wrong guy. I think they fucked up by taking someone to Syria and torturing them.

What I can't understand coming from you is a lack of outrage over this. You've stated your dislike for Syria's government on many occasions and probably even advocated drastic military action against them, yet you seem ok with our government sending people there so they can be tortured. You do understand that we do it in Syria because it would be illegal here...illegal because we're, you know, civilized, unlike the Syrians.


Next time, I hope we'll be a little more careful (although, deep down, I'm hoping not much). I'd rather not risk a city by being "PC" just to appease the the lofy notions and ideals of vilepagan types. Sorry.

You think it's "PC" to want to see our government act in a lawful and decent manner?

Sometimes, you just got to call it what it is. We're human beings; we're not perfect. In a large way, our societal maxims (the way we behave, our respect for life, etc.) mean nothing to the Muslims. Should we be cautious? Absolutely, but don't be clouded by lofty ideals or thoughts of utopianism - it's a fool's paradise.

Yes we should be cautious, yet we should also take blame for our actions!

I do recall a certain saying, something about all men being created equal. If we have one set of rules for one set of people, how is that different from the laws that Jim Crowe set down? Have we not progressed at all since that time? Our supreme court ruled that separate but equal is inherently unequal. I don't believe that some of our core values should be compromised because of one incident.


You claim that Islamics are more prone to terrorism. Thats true. Also, men are more prone to violence than women. Shouldn't we do the same for them and watch them more carefully? And what about the different forms of intelligence in men and women. It appears that women work better in groups than men, yet men work better in competitive arenas such as management. Given that, shouldn't we simply deny all women from management and give those positions solely to men? How about this: women can become emotionally unstable during their periods, given that, shouldn't we bar them from jobs where emotional stability is essential, like politics? These are obviously ridiculous claims - but note how similar they are to yours.

What I can't understand coming from you is a lack of outrage over this.
It does bother me, but let’s be honest with one another; the terrorists and the terrorist sympathizers shouldn't be privy to what we're doing, and by extension, they shouldn't be given any rights, period. Unfortunately, what we had in the Arar case was a preponderance of misinformation (primarily furnished by the Canadian government, no less), and much to our dismay, we screwed up. I've not heard of anything like this happening since, so I think it's a safe bet to chalk this one up to a learning experience, and we can move on with the knowledge that it's better for our government to err on the side of safety rather than frivolity.

On a related note, I've noticed that Mr. Arar hates Canada so much that he's decided to move to British Columbia with his newly negotiated "government job". However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he decides to keep the cozy summerhouse in Tunisia. I hear he has a lovely little two-bedroom mud shanty that faces the pretty side of Libya.

What the hell is a Syrian-born “Canadian” doing taking his holiday in Tunisia??? Now I don’t know about you, but that sure as shit looks fishy to me…….
You think it's "PC" to want to see our government act in a lawful and decent manner?
No.

I think it's "PC" to assume that most Muslims are "innocent". Do you have any idea how many (and I quote) "Muslim-Americans" cheered on 9-11 when the towers fell? Well, of course you don't, and neither do I, but what I DO KNOW scares the shit outta me. I've been told by two separate people (both very reliable) of two occasions where that occured, and apparently, both were within a 12-mile radius of where I work. Couple that with what you hear on the news, and all of the sudden things don’t look too good. You like these people? You wanna give them a fair chance? Fine, but I say they should follow the advice of their whacked out leaders and "leave America". Clearly, the (::ahem:: “legitimately elected”) presidential mouthpieces of their Islamic Imams are too chicken shit to come out and wage war legitimately, so they'll probably just continue to churn out some more indoctrinated halfwits to poison our water supply, bomb our buildings, kill our children, ruin our economy, and all for what???? Only to be protected by our rights and freedoms??? Are we that fucking stupid!? If we don’t change the rules – we die. It’s that simple.

On CNN RIGHT NOW: A plethora of dirty little bastard 5-year-olds are calling for “death to America”, and Muslim extremism, according to you amongst others, is ONLY represented by a “small portion” of their populace???? You still wanna give ‘em a chance? Chicago isn’t that far from Milwaukee, Vile. You might wanna think about that when New York is vaporized because the UN bought Ahmadinejad enough time to enrich and sell his weapons-grade uranium to the first Muslim bidder.

You claim that Islamics are more prone to terrorism. Thats true. Also, men are more prone to violence than women. Shouldn't we do the same for them and watch them more carefully? And what about the different forms of intelligence in men and women. It appears that women work better in groups than men, yet men work better in competitive arenas such as management. Given that, shouldn't we simply deny all women from management and give those positions solely to men? How about this: women can become emotionally unstable during their periods, given that, shouldn't we bar them from jobs where emotional stability is essential, like politics? These are obviously ridiculous claims - but note how similar they are to yours.
I wouldn't call them that ridiculous.... :)

It does bother me, but let’s be honest with one another; the terrorists and the terrorist sympathizers shouldn't be privy to what we're doing, and by extension, they shouldn't be given any rights, period.

But do you see the problem with that? We don't give them rights because they're terrorists, so they can't prove that they're not terrorists because they don't have any rights.

I've not heard of anything like this happening since, so I think it's a safe bet to chalk this one up to a learning experience, and we can move on with the knowledge that it's better for our government to err on the side of safety rather than frivolity.

I don't think that's a safe bet at all, because nothing has really changed that would prevent it from happening again. And I don't think asking the government to at least try to prove that they guy they have is a terrorist is exactly a frivolity.

But do you see the problem with that? We don't give them rights because they're terrorists, so they can't prove that they're not terrorists because they don't have any rights..
Yes, I see the problem with that, and I've given it some serious thought. I'm willing to forgo the rights of our Muslim population because the terrorists have no honor or dignity. Their modus operandi is to blend in; to disappear. If the "Muslim-American" people are offended by the fact that they're searched at airports, then they should blame the terrorists for employing chicken shit tactics, not the US government for the occasional screw-up. If they can't document IMMEDIATELY that they live in American Town, USA, while convincingly demonstrating that their allegiance is to this country and ONLY this country, then too bad. A good way to avoid being sent to Syria is not to vacation in places like Tunisia. How’s that for an idea???
I don't think that's a safe bet at all, because nothing has really changed that would prevent it from happening again. And I don't think asking the government to at least try to prove that they guy they have is a terrorist is exactly a frivolity.
Agreed to a degree. Our boys should extend every courtesy to the suspect. Let him explain himself, and we should check out his story before sending him on a flight to Syria. And the biggest lesson learned here is to question Canada's intel.

I was sure that I'd at least get one feminazi to start kicking my ass over that last one, I'm actually a little disappointed.

Actually, believe it or not, we don't have any. Or at least, none that I can think of.

"And the biggest lesson learned here is to question Canada's intel."

The biggest lesson should be not to torture people!

In a large way, our societal maxims (the way we behave, our respect for life, etc.) mean nothing to the Muslims
Right see I can explain it all with this niffty logic flow:

Respect for Life = Shock and Awe, Cluster Bombs, Torture, war
Muslims hate Shock and awe, Cluster Bombs, Torture, war
Therefore Muslims (do not)= respect for life

The biggest lesson should be not to torture people!
That really depends on the person. If they're caught red-handed planning an attack on either the US or Great Britain, then I don't care what the CIA does to them. As far as I'm concerned, they can take an ice pick and perforate their balls only to follow it up with a good old-fashioned disemboweling. I'd even be willing to buy the men responsible for doing it an expensive case of Bordeaux for their dedication. As a matter of fact, after we're done extracting the information we need - I wouldn't mind conducting medical experiments of a nature so brutal and extreme, they'd pale the ones performed by the Nazi's on the Jews. In short, I have no sympathy for these people. None. Zip. Nada.

I can explain it all with this niffty logic flow
Don't try it - it's not your forte.

It does bother me, but let’s be honest with one another; the terrorists and the terrorist sympathizers shouldn't be privy to what we're doing, and by extension, they shouldn't be given any rights, period.

No one suggested that we give information to terrorists that they shouldn't have, and since you brought up "giving" people rights, what about the rights that according to our constitution are to be afforded to all men? (and all women of course, just in case WindWip stirred up a few :flowers: )


Unfortunately, what we had in the Arar case was a preponderance of misinformation (primarily furnished by the Canadian government, no less), and much to our dismay, we screwed up. I've not heard of anything like this happening since, so I think it's a safe bet to chalk this one up to a learning experience, and we can move on with the knowledge that it's better for our government to err on the side of safety rather than frivolity.

I'm not sure what you see as frivolous here, but as I said before, I don't think the big mistake here was in torturing the wrong guy, I think the mistake was in torturing anyone at all. It's not just about torture being morally reprehensible in the extreme, which of course it is, but rather it's about being practical as well. If we torture people we get little or nothing for our efforts and we lose much in the way of prestige and credibility. How can you claim any moral superiority over the Arabs if you condone the detention and torture of people on mere suspicion of association with terrorists? How will the efforts of the terrorists to recruit new followers be influenced by our behavior? To be honest Prae, the fact that you agree with this policy baffles me. You have nothing but derisive things to say about Arabs and you're constantly referring to them as "uncivilized", "backwards" and various and sundry other sub-human references, yet you advocate that this country should behave in an uncivilized manner as well. Amazing.


On a related note, I've noticed that Mr. Arar hates Canada so much that he's decided to move to British Columbia with his newly negotiated "government job". However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he decides to keep the cozy summerhouse in Tunisia. I hear he has a lovely little two-bedroom mud shanty that faces the pretty side of Libya.

That would be an excellent example of the type of comment I mentioned.


What the hell is a Syrian-born “Canadian” doing taking his holiday in Tunisia??? Now I don’t know about you, but that sure as shit looks fishy to me…….

Fishy enough to detain the man and torture him to get the "truth"?


No.

I think it's "PC" to assume that most Muslims are "innocent".

Perhaps, but it's also logical to assume that based on the evidence.


Do you have any idea how many (and I quote) "Muslim-Americans" cheered on 9-11 when the towers fell?

If they did, what were they guilty of exactly?


Fine, but I say they should follow the advice of their whacked out leaders and "leave America". Clearly, the (::ahem:: “legitimately elected”) presidential mouthpieces of their Islamic Imams are too chicken shit to come out and wage war legitimately, so they'll probably just continue to churn out some more indoctrinated halfwits to poison our water supply, bomb our buildings, kill our children, ruin our economy, and all for what???? Only to be protected by our rights and freedoms??? Are we that fucking stupid!? If we don’t change the rules – we die. It’s that simple.

If we do change the rules we cease to be Americans. BTW, those rights and freedoms don't belong to us, they belong to everyone. The problem is that some people can't avail themselves of those rights as easily as we can.


On CNN RIGHT NOW: A plethora of dirty little bastard 5-year-olds are calling for “death to America”, and Muslim extremism, according to you amongst others, is ONLY represented by a “small portion” of their populace???? You still wanna give ‘em a chance? Chicago isn’t that far from Milwaukee, Vile. You might wanna think about that when New York is vaporized because the UN bought Ahmadinejad enough time to enrich and sell his weapons-grade uranium to the first Muslim bidder.

Prae, do you think those anti-US demonstrations are orchestrated events, or do you think those 5 year-olds were genuinely outraged by the US's policies in the Middle East? At any rate, you shouldn't be watching TV on the job. ;-)

That really depends on the person. If they're caught red-handed planning an attack on either the US or Great Britain, then I don't care what the CIA does to them. As far as I'm concerned, they can take an ice pick and perforate their balls only to follow it up with a good old-fashioned disemboweling. I'd even be willing to buy the men responsible for doing it an expensive case of Bordeaux for their dedication. As a matter of fact, after we're done extracting the information we need - I wouldn't mind conducting medical experiments of a nature so brutal and extreme, they'd pale the ones performed by the Nazi's on the Jews. In short, I have no sympathy for these people. None. Zip. Nada.

While I agree in principal to your senario, it makes me cringe that we(humans) are capable of either act.

I'm willing to forgo the rights of our Muslim population

You are? That's very generous of you.

You are? That's very generous of you.
That made me laugh. Good one, Lionel. :)

While I agree in principal to your senario, it makes me cringe that we(humans) are capable of either act.
As it stands right now, when they're caught (red handed, if you will), they won't give up any information. How can we fight a ghost? We GET the information by any means necessary. End of story.

Do you have any idea how many (and I quote) "Muslim-Americans" cheered on 9-11 when the towers fell?
If they did, what were they guilty of exactly?
Trachery and sedition.

They should be kicked out of the country, put on a terrorist watch list, harassed, belittled, spat-upon, and beaten right before I'm given the supreme honor of breaking my foot off in their asses for good measure. My family didn't work for generations (back to the Mayflower on my mother's side) to make this country a better place to live, while serving in the military, creating jobs, working as engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers, and businessmen to have some low-life camel-jockey laugh (while calling himself an American, no less) at the loss of 3,000 American lives. Fuck him - his rights - his liberties - and whatever else he thinks he has the "right" to in my country. You wanna laugh at people dying here, then EARN THAT RIGHT; serve in the military, make some money, produce children who find success here, and sacrifice your life for it. Oh, you haven't done that??? No wonder you can be so cavalier when it comes to innocent people being slaughtered by your "real" comrades. Listen, Ackmed - America wasn't built by people who hate it, it was built by people who love it. If you don't love it, then get out. If you laugh at people dying here, I’ll kick you out.
If we do change the rules we cease to be Americans. BTW, those rights and freedoms don't belong to us, they belong to everyone.
No, Vile, we fought for those rights; they most certainly DO NOT belong to everyone.
Prae, do you think those anti-US demonstrations are orchestrated events, or do you think those 5 year-olds were genuinely outraged by the US's policies in the Middle East?
They're staged, but they speak volumes. The parents of these children ARE outraged, and they're teaching these kids to hate us. Now, maybe some of the parents on this side of the pond are doing the same thing, however, there's one major difference between the two groups: the Arabs are teaching their kids that it's okay if people like us (i.e. infidels) are killed in the name of Allah, and we're not.
At any rate, you shouldn't be watching TV on the job. ;-)
Ok, ya gou got me there....:)

They should be kicked out of the country, put on a terrorist watch list, harassed, belittled, spat-upon, and beaten right before I'm given the supreme honor of breaking my foot off in their asses for good measure. My family didn't work for generations (back to the Mayflower on my mother's side) to make this country a better place to live, while serving in the military, creating jobs, working as engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers, and businessmen to have some low-life camel-jockey laugh (while calling himself an American, no less) at the loss of 3,000 American lives.
If rights only allow you to say what's popular, then they aren't rights at all. Free speech is free speech, whether you're burning a flag, waving a swastika, or laughing at 9/11.

No, Vile, we fought for those rights;
You did? Wow! What was the Battle of Lexington like? Did you fight in Normandy too?

Or perhaps you haven't fought for those rights at all.

they most certainly DO NOT belong to everyone.So basically your ancestors fought to preserve those rights for their descendents, and their descendents only. So anyone who doesn't have a veteran in their bloodline has no rights, correct? Fortunately, the US Constitution (the document which makes this country what it is) disagrees with you.

If rights only allow you to say what's popular, then they aren't rights at all. Free speech is free speech, whether you're burning a flag, waving a swastika, or laughing at 9/11.
You're right. It is. Do it in front of me, and I'll beat you a darker shade of black than you already are.
Did you fight in Normandy too?
No, I didn't, and neither did you. However I had several ancestors that did, and a lot of them were killed so some first generation Indian prick could talk to their grandchild about American values. So, given the tone of this conversation, let me reciprocate - did you have any ancestors that fought in that war, Jester? Now that we're being frank with one another, I should get this off my chest - exactly how many Indians "serve" in our military currently? To be honest, you strike me as an anomaly. I don't think I've ever seen an Indian soldier before. As a matter of fact, and while we're on that topic of conversation - I speak a little Hindi...wanna hear it:

"Dank you, and Come Again"

Asshole.
Fortunately, the US Constitution (the document which makes this country what it is) disagrees with you.
Is that what the Constitution is? Did they teach you that in your "English as a Second Language" class, or are you just being cute again?

Originally Posted by Me
Do you have any idea how many (and I quote) "Muslim-Americans" cheered on 9-11 when the towers fell?

Originally Posted by Vilepagan
If they did, what were they guilty of exactly?

Treachery and sedition..........................If you laugh at people dying here, I’ll kick you out.


Oh, bullshit, Prae. You're too intelligent to believe they would be he slightest bit guilty of either.

People can cheer for what they want to. Bush hasn't (yet) made that against the law.

As for how many Muslim-Americans cheered on 9-11??..........i'd guess 25 to 30. And the suject was not "laughing at", but *cheering*. There's a difference.

Oh, bullshit, Prae. You're too intelligent to believe they would be he slightest bit guilty of either.
Maybe not exactly, per se, but they should be. That's not something to "cheer" over or laugh at, period. They might as well come out and say they were *happy* innocent people were slaughtered, and if they can do that, then they should be considered complicit in their murders. I mean, seriously - do you want those people here???
As for how many Muslim-Americans cheered on 9-11??..........i'd guess 25 to 30. And the suject was not "laughing at", but *cheering*. There's a difference.
You're right, there is. "Laughing at" makes you a sick fuck. "Cheering" makes you an indictable, sick fuck.

Trachery and sedition.

Treachery isn't a crime, and sedition is usually defined as working towards the overthrow of a government, so I think your choices here are poor ones.


They should be kicked out of the country, put on a terrorist watch list, harassed, belittled, spat-upon, and beaten right before I'm given the supreme honor of breaking my foot off in their asses for good measure.

For someone who tries very hard to portray themselves as standing up for American values you seem rather clueless as to what those values are. Try reading the Constitution.


My family didn't work for generations (back to the Mayflower on my mother's side) to make this country a better place to live, while serving in the military, creating jobs, working as engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers, and businessmen to have some low-life camel-jockey laugh (while calling himself an American, no less) at the loss of 3,000 American lives.

You seem to think they did all this just to make America a better place for you and people who agree with you. Everyone else deserves nothing.


No, Vile, we fought for those rights; they most certainly DO NOT belong to everyone.

Who's we? White folks perhaps? You didn't fight, so spare me your righteous indignation Prae. Tell me...exactly what have you done that gives you the right to claim superiority over any citizen? At least Jester's in the military...what makes you an exceptional citizen?


They're staged, but they speak volumes.

About what? How to stage a demonstration?


The parents of these children ARE outraged, and they're teaching these kids to hate us. Now, maybe some of the parents on this side of the pond are doing the same thing, however, there's one major difference between the two groups: the Arabs are teaching their kids that it's okay if people like us (i.e. infidels) are killed in the name of Allah, and we're not.

Did it ever occur to you that most of these kids give a rats ass about the US and they demonstrate because someone is paying them to?

Kinda off topic--

That's interesting about your Mayflower line, Prae.

Can I ask, who is the ancestor?
Me also--Edward and Anne Fuller, son Samuel.

PS. Maybe we're related--that might explain why I agree with much of what you say--that is, loving this place, and wanting to maintain it.

Maybe we're related--that might explain why I agree with much of what you say--that is, loving this place, and wanting to maintain it.
That was a very sweet way to distance yourself from the lunatic. :D

LOl, no one ever said the Mayflower folks were necessarily NICE people--Brave and resourceful yes, nice, not always.

The nice died young.:)

Treachery isn't a crime, and sedition is usually defined as working towards the overthrow of a government, so I think your choices here are poor ones.
Treason is no longer a crime, or were you just nit-picking over my choice of words? And why were these men not guilty of sedition again? Because they didn't actually have a hand in planning the attacks??? Let me ask you something, Vile - if those found "cheering" for the terrorists on 9-11 were made aware of Al Qaeda's plans to kill 3,000 of our citizens, do you think they would've said anything to the authorities? Simple question, simple answer. What's your stomach tell you?
Everyone else deserves nothing.
I never said anything of the sort.
Tell me...exactly what have you done that gives you the right to claim superiority over any citizen?
Well, I really suppose it depends on the citizen in question.
At least Jester's in the military...what makes you an exceptional citizen?
The fact that I'll pay more in tax dollars than 95% of the people out there. The fact that I love my country enough to cringe when some liberal dickwad makes academic excuses for the bastards who *cheered* when thousands of people were killed by a group of chicken shit scumbags in our 767's. The irony here, is that the cocks they're defending think identically to monkeys that slaughtered 3,000 innocent Americans, but who cares - we've got freedom of speech to worry about, right? We can't persecute 'em for a belief, right? The "Constitution" is here to protect their rights.......RIGHT!?

Hell, I hope we can end up being neighbors some day so I can better "understand" what makes Ackmed tick...err, think the way he does. :@@:

Would you people fucking get real? I mean, seriously - what the hell's the matter with you?!?!?!?
Did it ever occur to you that most of these kids give a rats ass about the US and they demonstrate because someone is paying them to?
Oh, and they won't grow up hating the US if we withdrawal immediately and promptly bury our head in the sand, right? Get real. Is everything pie-in-the-sky with you???

Treason is no longer a crime, or were you just nit-picking over my choice of words?

Cheering is not treasonous behavior by any definition.


And why were these men not guilty of sedition again? Because they didn't actually have a hand in planning the attacks???

That would be one good reason.


Let me ask you something, Vile - if those found "cheering" for the terrorists on 9-11 were made aware of Al Qaeda's plans to kill 3,000 of our citizens, do you think they would've said anything to the authorities? Simple question, simple answer. What's your stomach tell you?

No doubt many would. No doubt others wouldn't.


I never said anything of the sort.

You imply it often.


The fact that I'll pay more in tax dollars than 95% of the people out there. The fact that I love my country enough to cringe when some liberal dickwad makes academic excuses for the bastards who *cheered* when thousands of people were killed by a group of chicken shit scumbags in our 767's.

Firstly, I have my doubts that these "cheering" people exist in significant numbers outside of your fevered imagination. The fact that a few might have cheered is of no great consequence to me because you can find a few Americans who would cheer at anything. Secondly, who are you referring to as the "liberal dickwad"?


The irony here, is that the people who they're defending think identically to people that slaughtered thousands of innocent Americans,...

Says you.


but who cares - we've got freedom of speech to worry about, right?

Right.


We can't persecute 'em for a belief, right?

Right again.


The "Constitution" is here to protect their rights.......RIGHT!?

Once again you are correct. I might also add that the Constitution protects your right to hold those hateful, arrogant, unpleasant ideas that you have. I understand that you'd probably prefer that the Constitution doesn't protect people who say things you dislike, but that's the way it has to work, or it won't work at all.


Hell, I hope we can end up being neighbors some day so I can better "understand" what makes Ackmed tick...err, think the way he does. :@@:

I hope they build a mosque next to your house. :-D


Would you people fucking get real? I mean, seriously - what the hell's the matter with you?!?!?!?

I'm afraid you'll have to be a tad more specific.


Oh, and they won't grow up hating the US if we withdrawal immediately and promptly bury our head in the sand, right?

That's just lame Prae. Try harder next time.


Get real. Is everything pie-in-the-sky with you???

Mmmmm pie...*drools*

I've noticed a big trend among our more conservative members. They all seem to be for assigning collective guilt to Muslims. Collective guilt used to be a liberal concept. All whites ought to be required to suffer for slavery, for example. Conservatives used to say that individuals should only be responsible for their own actions, and not the actions of others. Could it be that Conservatives are adopting the worst ideas of Liberals?

Also, just a point. Saddam Hussein is currently on trial for crimes against humanity. In particulair, he is charged with slaughtering all the inhabitants of a village where someone tried to assassinate him. No one is disputing that one person did try to assassinate him, or that it would have been perfectly acceptable to execute that individual. It is illegal in any country to try to kill the leader. It is, however, a crime against humanity to hold all the innocent villagers to be collectively guilty of the crime, and to kill them all. I find it discouraging that so many Americans favor policies that Saddam Hussein would have found reasonable.

No, I didn't, and neither did you. However I had several ancestors that did, and a lot of them were killed so some first generation Indian prick could talk to their grandchild about American values. If by "first generation" you mean someone who immigrated to the US, you're wrong; I was born in the US. Regardless, I very much appreciate what your ancestors did. You, however, haven't done shit and get no credit at all. You haven't fought to earn your rights any more than "Ackmed" has. A lot of things are passed on through genes, but service to one's country is not one of them.

Oh wait, you've paid a lot of tax dollars. How truly honorable and courageous. Let's give you the Medal of Honor and put your face on Mount Rushmore.

So, given the tone of this conversation, let me reciprocate - did you have any ancestors that fought in that war, Jester?Yes, though with the Indian military and not the US military. In any case, I'm not about to claim that what they did or didn't do has any bearing on my worth as a citizen.

Now that we're being frank with one another, I should get this off my chest - exactly how many Indians "serve" in our military currently? To be honest, you strike me as an anomaly. I don't think I've ever seen an Indian soldier before.There are more Indians in the military than you would think, and I certainly have seen more than I expected to. However, I will admit that I myself am disappointed that more of them don't serve in the military.

Let me add that if simply paying large amounts of tax dollars counts as service to the country, then Indians have done their share.

As a matter of fact, and while we're on that topic of conversation - I speak a little Hindi...wanna hear it:

"Dank you, and Come Again"

Asshole.Prae, if you feel the need to talk shit because of something I said, then talk shit about ME, not my race. Consider yourself lucky that you were hiding behind your fucking computer when you said that. I dare you to say that shit to my face.

Is that what the Constitution is? Did they teach you that in your "English as a Second Language" class, or are you just being cute again?Not that it would matter to a racist prick like you, but I've never been in an English as a Second Language class. English has been my primary language since I learned to speak, the language I think in, and the only language I've ever known well.

As for the Constitution, I suggest you actually try reading the document that your ancestors fought for and took an oath to defend. And maybe if you grow some balls one day, you can take that oath yourself.

I've noticed a big trend among our more conservative members. They all seem to be for assigning collective guilt to Muslims. Collective guilt used to be a liberal concept. All whites ought to be required to suffer for slavery, for example. Conservatives used to say that individuals should only be responsible for their own actions, and not the actions of others. Could it be that Conservatives are adopting the worst ideas of Liberals?

Also, just a point. Saddam Hussein is currently on trial for crimes against humanity. In particulair, he is charged with slaughtering all the inhabitants of a village where someone tried to assassinate him. No one is disputing that one person did try to assassinate him, or that it would have been perfectly acceptable to execute that individual. It is illegal in any country to try to kill the leader. It is, however, a crime against humanity to hold all the innocent villagers to be collectively guilty of the crime, and to kill them all. I find it discouraging that so many Americans favor policies that Saddam Hussein would have found reasonable.Very keen post, Imagineer.

I can hardly wait for the attempted refutation.

I can hardly wait for the attempted refutation.

Ummm, uhhhh . . . . . . Imagineer is a pinko commie!!!!

Imagineer is a pinko commie!!!!

Seconded. Huzzah!!!

Your half right. I'm an anarchist facist pinko commie liberal.

I'm an anarchist facist pinko commie liberal. double Huzzah!!!!

I've noticed a big trend among our more conservative members. They all seem to be for assigning collective guilt to Muslims. Collective guilt used to be a liberal concept. All whites ought to be required to suffer for slavery, for example. Conservatives used to say that individuals should only be responsible for their own actions, and not the actions of others. Could it be that Conservatives are adopting the worst ideas of Liberals?
Good point, and yes, I agree with Sedan; that was a keen observation. Touché.
Also, just a point. Saddam Hussein is currently on trial for crimes against humanity. In particulair, he is charged with slaughtering all the inhabitants of a village where someone tried to assassinate him. No one is disputing that one person did try to assassinate him, or that it would have been perfectly acceptable to execute that individual. It is illegal in any country to try to kill the leader. It is, however, a crime against humanity to hold all the innocent villagers to be collectively guilty of the crime, and to kill them all. I find it discouraging that so many Americans favor policies that Saddam Hussein would have found reasonable.
On this point, I disagree. I may have said it out of anger, but in no way do I really want to "kill them all". Having said that, I think it's safe to assume that most Americans feel that way.

Oh wait, you've paid a lot of tax dollars. How truly honorable and courageous. Let's give you the Medal of Honor and put your face on Mount Rushmore.
Well, I wouldn't go that far.
Let me add that if simply paying large amounts of tax dollars counts as service to the country, then Indians have done their share.
You'll get no argument from me there. As a matter of fact, they're very shrewd businessmen. Now, don't get me wrong - I wouldn't trust an Indian man any further than I could throw him because most have a serious deficiency in the scruples department, and the fact that they hold up lines in grocery stores to argue over the price of lettuce, cucumbers, tomatoes (or any item over a dollar, for that matter) really pisses me off, but other than that - you're absolutely right - they do pay their taxes.
Consider yourself lucky that you were hiding behind your fucking computer when you said that. I dare you to say that shit to my face.
Sheathe the scimitar, Hasan - you pissed me off and you got what you deserved. Deal with it. Maybe next time you'll ixnay on the sarcasm, ay?

Besides, if you really wanted to scare me, then you'd have to move in next door, and that's not really an option, is it?
Not that it would matter to a racist prick like you, but I've never been in an English as a Second Language class. English has been my primary language since I learned to speak, the language I think in, and the only language I've ever known well.
Well, color me surprised.

So let me get this straight; you're an Indian who serves in the US military, speaks English (really well, I might add), AND loves the United States? Yep...you're an anomaly...

Your half right. I'm an anarchist facist pinko commie liberal.
Now I know why you've been friends with Vile for 20 years.

No doubt many would. No doubt others wouldn't.
Always the diplomat....

Argue that position all you want - it changes nothing. I know, as do you, that the men *cheering* could safely be given a 5% chance of actually notifying the authorities, and in consideration of the PAINFULLY obvious here, 5% would probably fare on the high side. Lie to yourself all you want - you're not fooling anyone.

Secondly, who are you referring to as the "liberal dickwad"?
"The" liberal dickwad??? In case you hadn't noticed, there's more than just one, but.....in all honesty, it was meant to be more generic than anything else. :)

Vile, you know I like you, but in this particular case, I fundamentally and completely disagree with you. You can win the battle and lose the war, and that’s exactly what you’re doing when you extend Ackmed rights. Do you honestly think that a man who’d cheer at the sight of Americans dying would use those "rights" to do anything other than to cheer over your dead body?

In essense, you’re right – if he’s a naturalized citizen, then he’s deserving of the same protections that everyone else is, but if there’s such a thing as a litmus test for determining where someone’s allegiance lies, then 9-11 was it. You wanna grant someone protection for your lofty ideals, then know one thing: those protections were set up to provide for people who love this country, not for those who take pleasure in seeing it burned.

If that's what you think the founding fathers had in mind when they drafted the constitution, then you're sorely mistaken. You can be technically right all you want. The fact of the matter is I KNOW what's right, and you're stuck glomming onto an academic interpretation of what it is to be an American, which, IMHO, cheapens it to an unprecedented level, and for that – I’m speechless.

I think you're the one who needs to "try harder" next time, not me...

Now I know why you've been friends with Vile for 20 years.

Closer to 30. :)


Always the diplomat....

I try.


Argue that position all you want - it changes nothing. I know, as do you, that the men *cheering* could safely be given a 5% chance of actually notifying the authorities, and in consideration of the PAINFULLY obvious here, 5% would probably fare on the high side. Lie to yourself all you want - you're not fooling anyone.

I'm not so sure Prae. I think humans find it very easy to cheer something as a spectator, yet they'd find it much more difficult to be involved in what they're cheering. As I said, I really doubt very many people in this country were cheering on 9/11. If you've got evidence otherwise...


"The" liberal dickwad??? In case you hadn't noticed, there's more than just one, but.....in all honesty, it was meant to be more generic than anything else. :)

Ok. :)


Vile, you know I like you, but in this particular case, I fundamentally and completely disagree with you. You can win the battle and lose the war, and that’s exactly what you’re doing when you extend Ackmed rights. Do you honestly think that a man who’d cheer at the sight of Americans dying would use those "rights" to do anything other than to cheer over your dead body?

No. I think a man who would cheer at the sight of Americans dying would probably cheer over my dead body. I'd still want him to be afforded certain basic legal rights.


In essense, you’re right – if he’s a naturalized citizen, then he’s deserving of the same protections that everyone else is, but if there’s such a thing as a litmus test for determining where someone’s allegiance lies, then 9-11 was it.

If 9/11 was a litmus test of our allegiance, how do you propose to judge the results?


You wanna grant someone protection for your lofty ideals, then know one thing: those protections were set up to provide for people who love this country, not for those who take pleasure in seeing it burned.

If that's what you think the founding fathers had in mind when they drafted the constitution, then you're sorely mistaken.

Au contraire mon frere. The protections set forth in the Constitution are for everyone, not just those whom you judge to "love their country". As a matter of fact, the founders knew all to well that it was the politically unpopular people who needed the most protection. The rights set forth in the Constitution are there to protect the very people you'd deny protections to.


You can be technically right all you want. The fact of the matter is I KNOW what's right, and you're stuck glomming onto an academic interpretation of what it is to be an American, which, IMHO, cheapens it to an unprecedented level, and for that – I’m speechless.

I think you're the one who needs to "try harder" next time, not me...

I think you're a pragmatist, and I'm an idealist. This country was built by pragmatists like you, but it was almost certainly founded by idealists like me :)

On this point, I disagree. I may have said it out of anger, but in no way do I really want to "kill them all". Having said that, I think it's safe to assume that most Americans feel that way.

I'm glad you feel that way. I'm sure most Americans would like to catch and punish only those individuals who are involved with terrorist organizations. Unfortunately, I can think of no way to insure that we only punish the guilty without hearings at which their guilt or innocence can be determined. Those hearings can only accomplish that purpose if the accused are given legal rights, such as being able to know the evidence against them, so that if they are innocent they can provide evidence to show that.

Vile, you know I like you, but in this particular case, I fundamentally and completely disagree with you. You can win the battle and lose the war, and that’s exactly what you’re doing when you extend Ackmed rights. Do you honestly think that a man who’d cheer at the sight of Americans dying would use those "rights" to do anything other than to cheer over your dead body? Oh I'm sorry did I miss an article that stated that the Canadian guy cheered on 9/11?
Or is it that your so fucking stupid you think all Arabs cheered on 9/11?
Or are you so fucking stupid that you think that the US only tortures arabs that cheered on 9/11?

So, Which is it?
It must be one of those three.

You don't follow threads very closely, do you?

In answer to your question, it's none of the three, you congenitally clueless moron.

I think you're a pragmatist, and I'm an idealist. This country was built by pragmatists like you, but it was almost certainly founded by idealists like me :)
I think you're probably right. Well said.

The top Mountie is saying they screwed up big time when they alerted the FBI about this guy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/28/AR2006092800857.html

Ah Syria just dosent like Canadians,you see America and Syria do have something in common.

You'll get no argument from me there. As a matter of fact, they're very shrewd businessmen. Now, don't get me wrong - I wouldn't trust an Indian man any further than I could throw him because most have a serious deficiency in the scruples department, and the fact that they hold up lines in grocery stores to argue over the price of lettuce, cucumbers, tomatoes (or any item over a dollar, for that matter) really pisses me off, but other than that - you're absolutely right - they do pay their taxes.Ah, so we're the new Jews then. :rolleyes:


Sheathe the scimitar, Hasan - you pissed me off and you got what you deserved. Deal with it. Maybe next time you'll ixnay on the sarcasm, ay?I made a sarcastic comment about you and you only, and you responded with a quip about my race. Now that's just low. I just wanted to let you know that if you or anyone else said something like that to my face, I wouldn't take it lying down.

So let me get this straight; you're an Indian who serves in the US military, speaks English (really well, I might add), AND loves the United States? Yep...you're an anomaly...Huh? How many Indians have you met who can't speak English? And you'd be hard-pressed to find an American-born Indian whose primary language wasn't English. Also, I really don't understand why you think that Indians born in the US don't love the US. Seriously, that's like thinking the Earth is flat; that's how far it is from the truth. Stereotypes may be based on reality, but the stereotypes you hold about Indians are based on anything but.

Jester,dont take that pale face tooooo seriously.

Ah, so we're the new Jews then. :rolleyes:
Not at all. I trust the Jews. :D
I made a sarcastic comment about you and you only, and you responded with a quip about my race. Now that's just low. I just wanted to let you know that if you or anyone else said something like that to my face, I wouldn't take it lying down.
Jester, it was more of a joke than anything else. For future edification, if you insult me, my gloves come off. In short, you have nothing to be ashamed of. Indians are, by and large, very bright, hard working people. I'm sorry for the "Dank you and Come again" quip. It guess it was inappropriately funny and caustic.
Also, I really don't understand why you think that Indians born in the US don't love the US.
I'm a cynic.
Stereotypes may be based on reality, but the stereotypes you hold about Indians are based on anything but.
Maybe so, and once again, I apologize.

But you can’t tell me that you’ve never witnessed an Indian be cheap. I simply can’t believe that.

Perhaps "thrifty" would be more palatable than "cheap".

Originally Posted by Jester
Ah, so we're the new Jews then.


Not at all. I trust the Jews..............but you can’t tell me that you’ve never witnessed an Indian be cheap. I simply can’t believe that.


Wow. "Jews can be trusted, but Indians can not". And it's Indians who are "cheap".

:lolhit:

Perhaps "thrifty" would be more palatable than "cheap".
You're right.

Oh come on, we all know the real cheapskates are the Irish

Unless they're buying booze.

Hahaha, well they gotta buy enough to get em drunk, and that's a lot. I've got a little Irish in me too

A good way to avoid being sent to Syria is not to vacation in places like Tunisia. How’s that for an idea???
Prae, even from you that's about as dumb as ideas get. Do you even know what continent Tunisia is on?

Jester, it was more of a joke than anything else. For future edification, if you insult me, my gloves come off. In short, you have nothing to be ashamed of. Indians are, by and large, very bright, hard working people. I'm sorry for the "Dank you and Come again" quip. It guess it was inappropriately funny and caustic.Accepted. I too apologize for my remark; I could have made my point without being sarcastic.

But you can’t tell me that you’ve never witnessed an Indian be cheap. Oh I have. I admit that some of them take the idea of "a penny saved is a penny earned" a little too far.

Vile: At least Jester's in the military...what makes you an exceptional citizen?

Prae: The fact that I'll pay more in tax dollars than 95% of the people out there...Well why didn't you just say so to begin with? Of course that entitles you to more rights than other Americans. That's what the American Way is all about. Sheesh.

I speak a little Hindi...wanna hear it: "Dank you, and Come Again"
Spoken like true Trailer Trash.

Oh come on, we all know the real cheapskates are the Irish
OK Lets hear it.

OK Lets hear it.

Hahaha, oh you know I'm just messing paul - The Irish are awesome :drinktoth Any people that have a holiday with green beer rank right up near the top in my books

Well why didn't you just say so to begin with? Of course that entitles you to more rights than other Americans. That's what the American Way is all about. Sheesh.

I would say that shows that he earns his keep and helps keep our gov. running - but I'm a better citizen of course. I eat the weaker citizens to promote dawinism in my free time.

You don't really believe that do you? I mean, do you sit there on St. Patrick's Day drinking your green-colored beer and think that people in Ireland are doing the same?

Tried that green stuff once,it was very difficult to find some actually,nearly thru up.

You don't really believe that do you? I mean, do you sit there on St. Patrick's Day drinking your green-colored beer and think that people in Ireland are doing the same?

Well, if it wasn't for Ireland I wouldn't be drinking green beer, so cheers to them!

Try a 'Black Bush' with soda,screw the green stuff.

Do you even know what continent Tunisia is on?
No. I have no idea, but it just sounds.........dirty. If you're gonna visit places that sound dirty, then expect to be sent on a yearlong furlough to Syria courtesy of Uncle Sam. Whips, chains, electrodes - I don't care what they use; these people need to be purified. NO DIRTY PLACES, damn it!!!

Spoken like true Trailer Trash.
Ouch. I take pride in my doublewide. Nothing about it, or me, is trashy, Fluffer boy.

On the other hand, I hear they're selling senses of humor at Starbucks on full-blown homosexual sourdough with a zesty chipotle mayo for only $49.95. You'd better go get yours quick before they're all gone.

I mean, after all, I'm sure you'd look great eating one in your faggoty little drop-top Porsche, and just think, it'd lighten you up a bit in the process....

Ah Prae,Americas finest arent in Syria.............yet.

America's finest CIA agents sure as shit are.

Oh shit,is this a world exclusive,or did they read the map wrong,like what happened with Iraq.

I would say that shows that he earns his keep and helps keep our gov. running - but I'm a better citizen of course. I eat the weaker citizens to promote dawinism in my free time.
Goddamned straight.

Now THAT'S a real citizen, FlufferO'nut. In all honesty, WindWip here should probably be entitled to more rights than I am.

You don't know where Tunisia is? I'm going to make fun of you about this forever.

I don't know where Russia is either, but I know it's slightly cleaner than Tunisia. China? I have no idea, but I know it, too, is cleaner (albeit not much) than Tunisia. India? Total mystery, and filthy to boot (but on the plus side, it shows promise).

I mean, seriously - what more do I need to know?

Now, on the other hand, I suppose if I cared about any of this, it would be another story, but alas...

Who cares Prae,if they fuck with America,bomb them,nomatter were they are.Right haha.

I don't know where Russia is either, but I know it's slightly cleaner than Tunisia. China? I have no idea, but I know it, too, is cleaner (albeit not much) than Tunisia. India? Total mystery, and filthy to boot (but on the plus side, it shows promise).

I mean, seriously - what more do I need to know?

Now, on the other hand, I suppose if I cared about any of this, it would be another story, but alas...


Are you kidding? :confused: So if a map was in front of you, you wouldn't be able to point out those countries?

I bet he thinks thats were the fish comes from, Tunisia.

Are you kidding? :confused: I think it's pretty clear that he is.

I think it's pretty clear that he is.

Not really, or at least not to me... I hate sarcasm on the internet.

Its a thin line between humor and sarcasm,u wanna try it sometime.

I think it's pretty clear that he is.
Jesus, THANK YOU, Jester!

I was wondering how long I'd have to keep this up. That was just painful.