Here is a prime example of what we are teaching our children in schools today. It's almost as if we are saying "Dont worry, if you cant pass the test we will just call it racially motivated. Then we can sue and you can take a test in gym or band." This stuff is getting worse. I wonder if America in general will ever wake up and realize that people like this are just pariah's leeching off the charity of society. If you cant pass the test, heres a unique idea:
STUDY!!!!! .
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,88107,00.html

Why you would insist that the state hold your children to a lower standard is beyond me.

I agree that the tests are biased in favor of Europeans (what Americans like to call "white" people). But America is a European's country. You have to be able to speak the language and play the role if you want to "get ahead".

Black and Hispanic children should learn the ropes here. But, who knows, maybe one day there will be enough sucessful non-European people that the "minorities" can choose to work in a culturally familiar environment.

Live in America, SPEAK AMERICAN, Right now we are called America (or U.S.). Maybe 1000 years from now we will be called something else, but right now, the last I knew we were still the U.S. What gets me is how are education system is more worried about sports then grades. There is a school in the next town over from me that could care less about grades, but every one goes to the football games. It is just as much the parents fault as it is the schools.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I agree that the tests are biased in favor of Europeans (what Americans like to call "white" people). But America is a European's country. You have to be able to speak the language and play the role if you want to "get ahead".

I'm curious - have you actually seen one of these tests? I haven't seen an entire test, but none of the selected questions I've seen could be considered biased. You either know how to do math, or you don't. You either know what a pronoun is, or you don't. I can't see how there's any bias unless you work from the assumption that non-Europeans are inherently unable to learn.

Believe it or not, your "pronouns" aren't everybody else's. Math is math, true enough, but there are logic problems, literature, and spelling and other non scientific parts to American curriculum.

All the cultural stuff is not actually knowledge it is basically etiquite.

What one does when in America. There are people in the world who are different, culturally, than mainstream Americans (which is European).

You are glossing over the importance I put on learning the European mores and ethics even though we are culturally different.

OK, let's look at this another way. One of the main jobs of the schools is to get children ready to survive in the world - get jobs, pay bills, etc. Living in America is a different experience for different people depending on where you live, your culture, how much money you make, etc., but all of the basic elements are there for everybody - paying taxes, putting money in the bank, using math in your job, being able to write and communicate effectively. If we create tests that take different cultures and such things into account we may be allowing more people to pass, but we're certainly not helping them survive in American society. If, to use a slightly silly example, we allow ebonics to count on the English portion of the test we might help people pass, but when they get into the real world they'll find that their ebonics skills don't help them get a job that pays well. So have we really helped them?

I agree that everyone who wants to make it in America should excel at American education, including the cultural, non-scientific portions.

I also argue that some people in America have more experience with other-than-mainstream culture.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I agree that everyone who wants to make it in America should excel at American education, including the cultural, non-scientific portions.

I also argue that some people in America have more experience with other-than-mainstream culture. OK......but the tests are for the most common. Surely you dont think that the makers of such tests should change them to fit the minority do you? From your responses, it seems that you do.

Originally posted by HaVoK
OK......but the tests are for the most common. Surely you dont think that the makers of such tests should change them to fit the minority do you? From your responses, it seems that you do.

I think the tests are just fine the way they are.

(Again) we have to learn European history and culture if we want to succeed in this Euro-centric society.

(Here is where you might be getting confused) if enough non-Euros gain power in America, then we might not have to learn European history and culture to to the exclusion of all others, someday.

There are two parts to my opinion:

We have to learn these things or we won't make it.

We ("minorities") need to have our own sh*t so that we can teach our kids their own history and speak in our own words.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I think the tests are just fine the way they are.

(Again) we have to learn European history and culture if we want to succeed in this Euro-centric society.

(Here is where you might be getting confused) if enough non-Euros gain power in America, then we might not have to learn European history and culture to to the exclusion of all others, someday.

There are two parts to my opinion:

We have to learn these things or we won't make it.

We ("minorities") need to have our own sh*t so that we can teach our kids their own history and speak in our own words. Is simple mathmatics a form of exclusion to non-europeans?

And what kind of sh*t exactly do you need? What is "your own words"? Have you used an ATM within the last 5 years? English isnt even the first option on most of them anymore. Spanish is. But you have said before that you are african american. So are you saying that we should teach swahili in school now? Surely you cannot mean ebonics can you? After all, this is nothing but street slang. You dont want street slang to be taught in school now do you? That isnt the form of language you are calling "our own words" is it?

I don't speak swahili.

In my case, what you call "slang" is the way I talk when I am around like minded others.

To us it's not "street slang", it's how we talk. My kids will use the slang I use. When they go to school or to a job interview they will have to use "propper" American (your slang).

I have said, a few times now, that science is science (including mathematics of all types). The bias in our society is toward European cultural elements.

For instance: we learn about cavemen. The first proto-humans were not cavemen, they lived in small family groups on the planes of Africa. The earliest humans in EUROPE were cavemen.

Roman Numerals.

All "literature" (the cannon they teach in public school).

We learn Shakespear in school.

All of this is great stuff, but it is pretty irrelevant unless you place Europe's history in the larger context of world history (Arabs brought Europe the concept of "zero", for another instance).

Oh please, give me a break!!! These tests are supposed to be based on what the kids are being taught in school, right? Well they are all being taught the same thing, so how the hell do you figure it is biased? C'mon. If you pay attention in class you will have no problem, even if you speak "ebonics."

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I don't speak swahili.

In my case, what you call "slang" is the way I talk when I am around like minded others.

To us it's not "street slang", it's how we talk. My kids will use the slang I use. When they go to school or to a job interview they will have to use "propper" American (your slang).

I have said, a few times now, that science is science (including mathematics of all types). The bias in our society is toward European cultural elements.

For instance: we learn about cavemen. The first proto-humans were not cavemen, they lived in small family groups on the planes of Africa. The earliest humans in EUROPE were cavemen.

Roman Numerals.

All "literature" (the cannon they teach in public school).

We learn Shakespear in school.

All of this is great stuff, but it is pretty irrelevant unless you place Europe's history in the larger context of world history (Arabs brought Europe the concept of "zero", for another instance). I have about as much respect for ebonics as i do for klingon, Ed. Actually, I have more respect for the klingon since it actually has syntax. Ebonics is nothing but a lazy form of english. And you suggest they teach this to children in school? Proper english is something all children can actually use in society.

Originally posted by HaVoK
I have about as much respect for ebonics as i do for klingon, Ed. Actually, I have more respect for the klingon since it actually has syntax. Ebonics is nothing but a lazy form of english. And you suggest they teach this to children in school? Proper english is something all children can actually use in society.

American is a lazy form of English (you don't speak English. Respect that).

You people are amazing.

I didn't suggest that they teach anything different in school. I haven't used the word "ebonics" yet.

My slang is a dialect just like the difference between what Northeastern and Southeastern Americans speak. You all speak some dialect of American.

You feel really threatened by the idea of American Black people having their own sh*t.

Let me recap (again for the culturally challenged):

1) We (non Europeans) need to learn mainstream American culture so we can succeed here.

2) One day we, hopefully, will not have to learn the Eurocentric version of history.

It's two totally different statements.

I really don't care what you think of my speech. I speak yours just fine. When I address you I will speak so you can understand.

Granted, children in US schools learn a Eurocentric version of history, yet much less so than when I attended. (grad HS in '68). It was Europeans who initially settled the US. Aren't Hispanics essentially of European descent? Africans were dragged here against their will, to put it mildly. What changes would you suggest?

I like it the way it is. This is a European country. It makes sense that the schooling we get is Europeanized. I really admire the European in some ways. You guys conquered the world fair and square so you get to write the history. It's only natural.

Things will only change when power changes hands.

Originally posted by Ed Blank

You feel really threatened by the idea of American Black people having their own sh*t.

Dont hand me that "threatened" crap. The word I would use is amused. Im amused that American Black people as you put it, want to "have their own sh*t", yet let an American White person do the same. Can you imagine how much crying there would be if there was a White Entertainment Television? Or Miss White America? You see, that would be considered racial. But black people doing it is just "American Black people having their own sh*t". I wonder how you explain that?

I agree Havok all any hears anymore is black this black that. Just try "white this" and see what happens, your instantly called a hater.

They have one "Black Entertainment Television"

They have five hundred other channels on TV. They can't call them all "White Entertainment TV" but that's what they are. America is for Europeans.

That's why they call some things "Black" this and "Black" that. If we were to label everything that was for "White" people we'd have to label everything.

When I talk about Black people having their own, I'm not talking about TV shows, though.

On a unrelated note:

Havok, you use the Yin Yang as your avatar...

Do you actually practice Eastern mysticism or do you just think it's cool?

America is for who ever lives here it may have started eurpean 200years ago, but today it is for who ever is here. The language we have, was set up along time before you or I were here. So the bottom line is speak it or leave. As far as your comment about the TV channels, not true. Black people and other races are always on every channel. Lets take one of BET comedy nights and watch how much they SLAM whitty, just try that on any other channel except this time have whitty make fun of blacks. And just so you don't think I'm only saying this about blacks lets not forget the spanish channels. Not to mention every time you buy a product you have to go through and sort out which directions you need to put the damn thing together. I believe our school systems and people are getting lazy, we need to go back to the english language if you are in public, around other people speak english, unless you are not an American(then you can just plain leave).

My slang is a dialect just like the difference between what Northeastern and Southeastern Americans speak. You all speak some dialect of American.

I'm from NC so I know all about southern dialects. People who speak that way have NO problem comprehending proper English. Believe it or not they can understand "He ain't here" as well as "He is here." Shocking.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
They have one "Black Entertainment Television"

They have five hundred other channels on TV. They can't call them all "White Entertainment TV" but that's what they are. America is for Europeans.

That's why they call some things "Black" this and "Black" that. If we were to label everything that was for "White" people we'd have to label everything.

When I talk about Black people having their own, I'm not talking about TV shows, though. Somehow I knew you didnt have a problem with minorities having excusive events. But what exactly did you mean then when you talk about black people having their own? No one is saying you cant do anything in the privacy of your own home. All i ever said was that our standards for educating our children are being lowered to accomodate lazy children who will not learn simple test subjects. You came in saying that the tests are biased in favor of europeans. (white people) You went on to defend ebonics as not being street slang. (LMAO) I dont have a problem with black people wanting their own culture. The only thing i wonder is why no one ever tries to find multi-cultural events for all to enjoy together? That allows for growth AMONG cultures. Not exclusive events like the examples i used in my earlier posts.

No matter what I type you keep reinterpreting it to fit your schema.

(For the comment about southern people being able to comprehend regular "English", which is actually "American". I comprehend the language better than you. Shocking.)

I have to speak propper American because I work for propper Americans. If you started working for (let me pick someone you might be familiar with) Puffy Combs' record company you would find yourself speaking "Ebonics" (since you guys are dying to use that word in refrence to my dialect).

"Black people having their own" refers to owning companies, factories, and real estate.

(I didn't say anything about things like BET being exclusive. The only reason they could be is beacuse you would exclude yourself. You are perfectly free to watch the channel, listen to the music, wear the gear... I mean "clothes" or whatever. You, however, don't "respect" these things anymore than the fictitious language of the Klingons.)

One more thing:

As I have said continually, the standards should not be "lowered" in public schools. I encourage "minority" children to learn every bit of European/American history and culture. Read all the books.

America is, however, biased toward Europeans. It's only natural.

This is not the America of my ancestors who came from Ireland in the 1880's. The country is ever changing, and (one hopes) continually progressing. In another 50 years it will have changed even more, if for no other reason than population growth. We don't need ebonics to communicate. All one really needs to do is listen.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I have to speak propper American because I work for propper Americans. If you started working for (let me pick someone you might be familiar with) Puffy Combs' record company you would find yourself speaking "Ebonics" (since you guys are dying to use that word in refrence to my dialect).

This is only a question, not an accusation. Are you saying that in order for someone to work in a black owned company, they would have to change their form of speech? And "ebonics" is just a label i have heard of. If you have another name for your form of speech I would love to be educated on it.

My "form of speech" is just a dialect of American like yours.

(It's spelled "whitey" not "whitty". So much for your mastery of the language).

You keep typing blanket statements like "if a person works for a Black owned company dah dah dah".

Many Black people who own companies speak propper American. They probably don't speak it at home to their wives, though. I was using Puffy Combs' company as an example of one where everyone working there has probably picked up some slang (Puffy runs a record company BTW).

If enough people who are culturally similar to Puff owned record companies, the whole industry could adopt slang as it's official dialect.

I know y'all understand the point I'm making here. "Minority" children have to speak propper American so they can succeed. If enough succeed maybe their children's children can talk at work like they do at home.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I don't speak swahili.

In my case, what you call "slang" is the way I talk when I am around like minded others.

To us it's not "street slang", it's how we talk. My kids will use the slang I use. When they go to school or to a job interview they will have to use "propper" American (your slang).

I have said, a few times now, that science is science (including mathematics of all types). The bias in our society is toward European cultural elements.

For instance: we learn about cavemen. The first proto-humans were not cavemen, they lived in small family groups on the planes of Africa. The earliest humans in EUROPE were cavemen.

Roman Numerals.

All "literature" (the cannon they teach in public school).

We learn Shakespear in school.

All of this is great stuff, but it is pretty irrelevant unless you place Europe's history in the larger context of world history (Arabs brought Europe the concept of "zero", for another instance).

Okay, Ed. I've got some issues.

First of all, our society has adopted Arabian numerals as its primary system (You know; 1, 2, 3, etc....that's Arabian). Roman numerals, as you should know, are only used in few instances, usually when using Arabian numerals is inappropriate for some reason.

Second of all, culture should play no role in logic problems. Logic problems exist in every society, like mathematics. A typical logic problem: True or False, If all Tigers are Cats and all Cats are Animals, then all Animals are Tigers. That's a logic problem. If you want to try to argue there's some sort of cultural bias there, good luck, but you deserve to be ignored if you do.

As for your focal criticism of the reading/writing portion of the test, I think the fact that the reading/writing portion is actually the portion of the test that blacks are strongest in (That is, their weakest portion of the test is the mathematical portion) says a hell of a lot. It says that the problem blacks are having is with study habits, not cultural biases. I mean, it's not like they're scoring really well in math and doing really poorly in English. They're doing really poorly all around.

To back that up further, if these tests are so culturally biased, I'd like to hear someone give me a good explanation telling me why Asians outscore whites on these tests. If you can, you'll be the first.

What you need to admit to yourself is that blacks failure to do well on objective tests is a problem with black society, not white society.

"Minority" children have to speak propper American so they can succeed.

No, they are taught that because that is how the English language is supposed to be spoken. Dialects should not be taught in an English class for that reason. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using dialects and accents, but teaching them in public schools? C'mon. If you know "standard" english, you can understand the dialects. At least I can!

What you need to admit to yourself is that blacks failure to do well on objective tests is a problem with black society, not white society.

Wow, that I was incredibly politically incorrect! I agree!

You are all bigots.

I never said anything about teaching any form of slang in public school. I didn't say blacks should beheld to a different standard. I didn't say half of the things that you keep reitterating.

I bet there's no other black people on this site (at least that can say so and be debated with seriously).

I kind of liked this site when I was anonymous.

You are all really pathetic.

Signing off.

You are all bigots.

lol... you knew he would say it eventually.

Hey I am Black, Haitian actually.

Who cares!! Nobody was talking about either Ed Blank or godson personally. I'm white. Who gives a crap. This is a message board, can we please leave your race out of it?

Further Adventures of the Language Police

Since the publication of her book, The Language Police, Diane Ravitch says she has been hearing from a number of folks in the publishing and education worlds with yet more howlers about how political correctness is dumbing down our textbooks.

In a column in the Wall Street Journal, Ravitch says a text illustrator wrote to tell her that she was not permitted to portray a birthday party because Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in celebrating birthdays, and another wrote to say he was directed to airbrush the udder from his drawing of a cow because that body part was "too sexual."

A contributor to a textbook series on floods could only use photographs in which everyone aboard was wearing lifevests, and Michigan doesn’t allow mention of flying saucers or space aliens on its tests because they might imply the possibility of evolution.

Ravitch has also learned that the specifications for photographs in many textbooks are very detailed. "Men and boys must not be larger than women and girls," she writes.

"Asians must not appear as shorter than non-Asians. Women must wear bras, and men must not have noticeable bulges below the waist. People must wear shoes and socks, never showing bare feet or the soles of shoes, and their shoelaces must be solid black, brown or white. People must never gesture with their fingers, nor should anyone be depicted eating with the left hand. Things to avoid: holiday decorations and scenes in which a church or a bar appears in the background."---
Fox News

This is getting a little out of hand. I mean, now we are not allowed to think men are physically bigger than women? Asians are not shorter than other races? And there will be hell to pay if a church is shown somewhere in a picture. Society is filled with cattle.

Getting out of hand? Goddamn right. This is nucking futts, and bound to get worse.

I've always said those damn cows need bra's, now look what they've gone and done to our youth :D What about when you drive by a farm and you see Henry the bull pluging Bertha the cow, they need to get a motel :D