This time, it's pope stirring up the masses!This will reinforce the islamic clerics in their idea of a western/chistian conspiracy against muslims. I wonder what the reaction on the streets will be....

Speaking in Germany, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things.

The head of the Muslim Brotherhood said the Pope's remarks "aroused the anger of the whole Islamic world".
Sheikh Youssef al-Qardawi, a prominent Muslim cleric in Qatar, rejected the Pope's comments, in remarks reported by Reuters.

"Muslims have the right to be angry and hurt by these comments from the highest cleric in Christianity," Mr Qardawi reportedly said.

"We ask the Pope to apologise to the Muslim nation for insulting its religion, its Prophet and its beliefs."

The 57-nation Organisation of the Islamic Conference also said it regretted the Pope's remarks, and news agencies reported a furious reaction on Islamic websites.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5347876.stm

It really is offending.

See what decades of celibacy does for one's judgement?

Like I said months ago - The Pope is an asshole.

I may live to see the events that I have been speaking of after all.

This thread is an example of what can be done by taking quotes out of context. It seems the purpose was to make it seem the Pope was slamming Islam and to foment hatred.

Here is more of what Pope Benedict said and it makes the part quoted by the author much less harsh.

The Pope's address explored the nature of religion and reason
Remarks by Pope Benedict XVI in a speech in Germany have provoked outrage in the Muslim world and led to demands that the pontiff apologise for "insulting" Islam.
Below are some key excerpts from the Pope's speech at the University of Regensburg, entitled Faith, Reason and the University: Memories and Reflections.


ON UNIVERSITY LIFE
It is a moving experience for me to be back again in the university and to be able once again to give a lecture at this podium.

The university [of Bonn, where the Pope taught for a period from 1959] was also very proud of its two theological faculties. This profound sense of coherence within the universe of reason was not troubled, even when it was once reported that a colleague had said there was something odd about our university - it had two faculties devoted to something that did not exist: God.

That even in the face of such radical scepticism it is still necessary and reasonable to raise the question of God through the use of reason, and to do so in the context of the tradition of the Christian faith: this, within the university as a whole, was accepted without question.


ON HOLY WAR
I was reminded of all this recently, when I read... of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

READ THE WHOLE SPEECH


In the seventh conversation...the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God," he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats."


ON RELIGION AND REASON
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality.

At this point, as far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we are faced with an unavoidable dilemma. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true?


ON THEOLOGY AND SCIENCE
The liberal theology of the 19th and 20th Centuries ushered in a second stage in the process of dehellenisation, with Adolf von Harnack as its outstanding representative.

The intention here is... of broadening our concept of reason... Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today

Pope Benedict XVI
Jesus was said to have put an end to worship in favour of morality. In the end he was presented as the father of a humanitarian moral message. Fundamentally, Harnack's goal was to bring Christianity back into harmony with modern reason.

[But]...any attempt to maintain theology's claim to be "scientific" would end up reducing Christianity to a mere fragment of its former self... This is a dangerous state of affairs for humanity, as we see from the disturbing pathologies of religion and reason which necessarily erupt when reason is so reduced that... religion or ethics no longer concern it.


CONCLUSION
The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application... Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today.

In the Western world it is widely held that only positivistic reason and the forms of philosophy based on it are universally valid. Yet the world's profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions. A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures.




If Muslims find the Pope's statements offensive let them realize that I find their killing in the name of Islam even more offensive. If they don't wish people to call attention to the fact that Islam is the only major religion in existence today that still calls for the murder of non-believers. Now that is truely offensive.

I'm sure the pope intented no insult, as he used the notion to state that he rejects violence fueled by religion - they weren't even his own words, he was quoting someone else. And lo and behold what happens now. It's always like this! We get told all the time by the muslim world how corrupt and awfull we are, we have people marching dressed as suicide bombers vowing to "kill the jews", but even the SLIGHTEST notion of critism against Islam sparks worldwide protests! To me it seems very hypocritic!

The pope may have been right or wrong, and may have to justify why he used that excact quote (there must be lots and lots!). But! it still makes my stomach turn to see another group of violent protesters shouting death to catholics and burning dolls of the pope!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/5349604.stm

It takes nothing to stir up those Muslims.

Talk about insecure - the slightest potential offense and they are off on the 'death to ____' rant (just insert whatever into the blank).

The funny thing is - they want to be taken seriously. They will never be taken seriously until they grow up.

I'm just glad we have far better weapons than them, should they push too far.

Show me just what Jesus brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman

^ If someone said that, I think Christians would be a little PO'd

Show me just what Jesus brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman

^ If someone said that, I think Christians would be a little PO'd

There is a differnce between being pissed off and rioting in the streets.

They have every right to be annoyed, they have no right to start making threats & death edicts (which I am sure is coming very soon)

I'm sure fanatics on either side would do either of those - but if death threats start becoming commonplace in the Muslim community then I would start making generalizations about Muslims.

I dont know about you, but I am so sick of worrying about the damn "arab street" fuck them. Its like they are women with PMS who we have to tippy toe around. Let them get mad, or better yet, maybe they should start being afaid of the western street for a change.

The Pope is an asshole.
and a Nazi. Not to mention a protector of pederasts.

The Pop0e quotes a long dead emperor who said Moslems are violent and how do they react?


With violence.

Talk about proving a point.

From a 'bigger perspective' point of view, it would probably be easier just to eradicate everyone in third world countries and repopulate them from more civilized areas than try to change them.

Just offering you another option Travh - that's actually very similar to a very effective military tactic around 1000 BC to 1500 AD - they would kill off the men and all males that were over a certain height to prevent uprisings.

I'm with you, Trav. I no long care what the Moslem street thinks. They hate us anyway. Maybe a few don't but the majority do and all the bullshit statements in the world won't change that fact. Screw 'em.

Until there are many, many more Moslems like the author of the following piece I don't really care what they think or how their sensibilities are hurt. Let them riot in their own countries and kill their own people but if they kill anyone else, bomb the hell out of them. I am sick and tired of their constant rioting and killing every time someone says something they don't like.

"September 12, 2006 -- WELL, here it is, five years late, but here just the same: an apology from an Arab-American for 9/11. No, I didn't help organize the killers or contribute in any way to their terrible cause. However, I was one of millions of Arab-Americans who did the unspeakable on 9/11: nothing.
The only time I raised my voice in protest against these men who killed thousands of innocents in the name of Allah was behind closed doors, among the safety of friends and family. I did at one point write a very vitriolic essay condemning their actions, but fear of becoming another Salman Rushdie kept me from ever trying to publish it.
Well, I'm sick of saying the truth only in private - that Arabs around the world, including Arab-Americans like myself, need to start holding our own culture accountable for the insane, violent actions that our extremists have perpetrated on the world at large.
Yes, our extremists and our culture.
Every single 9/11 hijacker was Arab and a Muslim. The apologists (including President Bush) tried to reassure us that 9/11 had nothing to do with Islam, but was a twisting of a great and noble religion. With all due respect, read the Koran, Mr. President. There's enough there for someone of extreme tendencies to find their way to a global jihad.
There's also enough there for someone of a different mindset to find a path to enlightenment and peace. Still, Rushdie had it right back in 2001: This does have to do with Islam. A Christian who bombs an abortion clinic in the name of God is still a Christian, at least in his interpretation, and saying otherwise doesn't negate the fact that he has spent a goodly amount of time figuring out his version of the one true and right thing to do.
The men who killed 3,000 of our citizens on 9/11 in all likelihood died saying prayers to Allah, and that by itself is one of the most horrific things to me about that day.
And, while my grandparents never waged a jihad, their attitudes toward Jews weren't that much different than Mohammed Atta's. No, they didn't support the Holocaust, but they did believe that Jews were trouble in many different ways, and those sorts of beliefs were passed on to me before I'd ever actually met a Jew.
I'm sorry for that, for ever believing that anything that my grandparents or other relatives had to say about Jews or Israel, for that matter, had any real resemblance to truth. It took me years to realize that I'd been conned into believing the generalizations and stereotypes that millions around the Arab world buy into: that Jews, America and Israel are our main problem.
One look at the average Arab regime should alert us to the fact that the problem, dear Achmed, lies not overseas or next door in Tel Aviv, but in the brutal, corrupt despots that we have bred from country to country in the Mideast, across the span of history. That history and its corresponding economic devastation is the main reason I reside on New York City's West Bank - New Jersey - not the one near Jerusalem. On my worst day, I'm happy about that fact. I'd rather be here than there, and experience the freedom and boundless opportunities that were mostly unknown to so many generations of my family in the Mideast.
For as long as I live, the image of those towers falling, as I watched in horror and disbelief from the corner of 40th and Fifth, will be for me my Pearl Harbor, for in that instant I recognized that not only was our city under attack - so was our freedom.
It still is. And will continue to be for years to come. And the threat is not from within, but from Islamic fascists who desperately want to destroy the freedom and opportunities that millions the world over still seek.
Five years after that awful day, it's time for all Arab-Americans, and Arabs around the world, to protest against Islamic fascism, to raise our voices - and, where necessary, our arms - against these tyrants until their plague of terror has been driven from the face of the earth forever."
Emilio Karim Dabul is a freelance writer and PR consultant living in New Jersey.

The Pop0e quotes a long dead emperor who said Moslems are violent and how do they react?
With violence.
Talk about proving a point.

So I hope you have a link to this violence your rambling about Frogger...

Or are you just talking out your ass?

The Pop0e quotes a long dead emperor who said Moslems are violent and how do they react?


With violence.

Talk about proving a point.

He said that all their prophet brought was evil and inhuman. Think about if a respected world leader stated that anything from China is evil and inhuman - they'd probably want his head. If someone said that Americans were evil and inhuman to my face I would start something.

If you start talking shit to someone, they're gonna get pissed, and it usually escalates to beyond just words.

Samples of current headlines:

Islam Unites.
Muslim Anger.
Muslims Deplore.
Muslims Condemn.
Muslim Fury.

Come on Pope, where is a good Crusade when you need one?
Start with headlines like:

Catholics Unite.
Catholics Anger.
Catholics Deplore.
Catholics Condemn.
Catholic Fury. :bombout:

Just kidding, but it was fun to write.

Here's a picture of peaceful Muslims quitely discussing the Pope's statement, Dan.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/09/popeeffigy_228x152.jpg

I'm sure fanatics on either side would do either of those - but if death threats start becoming commonplace in the Muslim community then I would start making generalizations about Muslims.

Well fanatics are fanactics of course, but it seems in these muslim countries that it doesn't take much to make people fanatical. I'm not equating them with "terrorists" - just the burning stuff in the street kind of fanactical behavior.

I think the Roman Catholics are equally as wacked out & stupid, but it's not a burn stuff / riot / call for the death of infidels kind of wacked. In that sense the RC can be as wacked as they like because they keep it to themselves and they are not threatening anybody.

This rioting does not help their cause because it's going to make people tired of it & the natural response is going to be like Trav's - fuck you & your rioting, we don't care & if you want to make something of it then give it a try.

Here's a picture of peaceful Muslims quitely discussing the Pope's statement, Dan.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/09/popeeffigy_228x152.jpg


=================

Yeh, my previous posts, unfortunately, will begin to make more and more sense to people as time goes by.

We'll probably see how the majority of muslims react in the next few days. My guess is that it will turn into some larger demonstrations.

He said that all their prophet brought was evil and inhuman. Think about if a respected world leader stated that anything from China is evil and inhuman - they'd probably want his head.
=========================================

Many people may not realize that there are millions of Muslims in China.

So then you admit you were talking out your ass.

All I see is some people burning stuff. Not violent, not hurting anyone.

so burning things is peaceful, even if it was the american flag or the flag of a country, such as england?

Am I offended by the remark? Sorta. And what most muslims I think are angry about is that Jihad and Holy War are becoming synonymous. When in reality, the simplest things like fasting and combating racism can be considered a Jihad. However, Muslims have to realize that just because someone who is ignorant about Islam makes a remark towards their religon, it doesn't make it acceptable to riot. I'm not that offended by the remark because I'm used to it and I understand that people make mistakes. They have apologized and I think that should be the end of it.

Here's a picture of peaceful Muslims quitely discussing the Pope's statement, Dan.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/09/popeeffigy_228x152.jpg

Do you think that if a news photographer took pictures of a group of muslims discussing the Pope's gaffe that any of them would actually make the paper?

Frogger, it seems to me that you believe all muslims act like this just because you don't see any peaceful muslims on the news. Try looking elsewhere.

I'm with you, Trav. I no long care what the Moslem street thinks. They hate us anyway. Maybe a few don't but the majority do and all the bullshit statements in the world won't change that fact. Screw 'em.

Until there are many, many more Moslems like the author of the following piece I don't really care what they think or how their sensibilities are hurt. Let them riot in their own countries and kill their own people but if they kill anyone else, bomb the hell out of them. I am sick and tired of their constant rioting and killing every time someone says something they don't like.


Frogger, I'm sure that what you said here was largely you venting a little spleen. At least I hope so.

venting a little spleen sounds messy

We try to sound open and enlightened by claiming "well this group would react similarly. they're not so different", but our true beliefs are revealed in our actions.

Do you think Andres Serrano lived in fear after 'Piss Christ" (a photo of a cricifix in the artist's urine)?
Or Chris Ofili after "Sensation" (A picture of Mary smeared with dung)?
Will their experiences intimidate other artists from creating anti-christian art?
No, no and no.

But when the Muhammad cartoons were an issue, most newspapers wouldn't even display them in their story.

So we can talk about how there are fanatics in every religion, but our actions give our true beliefs away.

Vile,
Some of it is venting spleen and some of it is the fact that I have simply had it with Muslims threatening any who disagree with them or who don't walk on eggs when discussing them.

Muslims have a habit of threatening people they dislike with death and destruction. I don't think I am alone in becoming more and more fed up with their behavior. If you threaten me once I will probably overlook it as an over-reaction but an anomaly. If you do it twice I will be annoyed but still overlook it. When it becomes standard behavior to act in this way, to threaten, to riot, even to kill, I finally say, fuck you.

I am sick and tired of being threatened by Muslims every time they don't like something. I am sick and tired of Muslims feeling free to insult the West, to threaten Jews and Christians and then to riot when someone says something negative about them.

I am arriving at a point where I say, if there is going to be war between Muslims and the rest of the world let them bring it on, but if they do let us no longer restrain ourselves. If they hit us with a rock we should hit them with a boulder. If they hit us with a stick we should hit them back with a log. So long as the world allows Muslims to act the way they do they will continue. It is time to start letting them know that their actions have consequences.

I didn't feel this way even after 9/11 but I have finally had enough. It is time Muslims are punished, economically and if that doesn't work, physically. We tried the, 'most Muslims are good guys' approach and that hasn't worked. It is now getting closer to the time to call in the bad cop.

Well said, Frogger. My sentiments are pretty much the same.

Taliban demands Pope to apologise for anti-Islam remarks

Agence France-Presse

Kandahar, September 16, 2006

Afghanistan's Taliban on Saturday demanded Pope Benedict XVI to apologise for remarks linking Islam with violence, adding the comment showed the Christian West was waging war against Muslims.

"We strongly condemn it," Mohammad Hanif, who regularly speaks to the media on behalf of the extremist insurgent group, said.

"We also want the Pope to apologise before the Muslim Umma (nation)," he said.

The remarks were "obviously part of a crusader war that the West, chiefly America and (President) Bush, is waging against Islam and Muslims," he said.

The ultra-conservative Taliban regime was toppled in a US-led invasion five years ago and the group is now waging a guerrilla-type insurgency against the government.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1798504,0005.htm

Ah, the irony!!

Vile,
Some of it is venting spleen and some of it is the fact that I have simply had it with Muslims threatening any who disagree with them or who don't walk on eggs when discussing them.

I understand your frustration, but not your reaction.


Muslims have a habit of threatening people they dislike with death and destruction.

Really? When was the last time you were threatened by a Muslim? Is this all muslims, or just a few you've heard about on the news?


I don't think I am alone in becoming more and more fed up with their behavior. If you threaten me once I will probably overlook it as an over-reaction but an anomaly. If you do it twice I will be annoyed but still overlook it. When it becomes standard behavior to act in this way, to threaten, to riot, even to kill, I finally say, fuck you.

That's just it Frogger. It's not standard behavior for Muslims to act in this way.


I am sick and tired of being threatened by Muslims every time they don't like something. I am sick and tired of Muslims feeling free to insult the West, to threaten Jews and Christians and then to riot when someone says something negative about them.

I'm beginning to understand how you feel. I'm beginning to feel the same way about people who blame all muslims for the actions of a deranged few.


I am arriving at a point where I say, if there is going to be war between Muslims and the rest of the world let them bring it on, but if they do let us no longer restrain ourselves. If they hit us with a rock we should hit them with a boulder. If they hit us with a stick we should hit them back with a log. So long as the world allows Muslims to act the way they do they will continue. It is time to start letting them know that their actions have consequences.

When you put words to these feelings of anger and frustration, into what safe little lock-box of your mind do you stash your Christianity?

I don't mean to single you out Frogger, but you've expressed these frustrations with Islam in general better than some here, yet there are other professed Christians on this board who hold the same ideas about what we should do to Muslims.

Now, as you are well aware, I'm not a christian, but it seems to me that many here who claim they are christians are also the first people to suggest a hard-line approach to the problems we face today, and the suggestions rarely are anything like the teachings of Jesus, whose ideas you claim to hold dear.

Ideas such as:


Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

These are powerful, world-changing ideas when they're acted upon, and when they're not, they're just words in a book.


I didn't feel this way even after 9/11 but I have finally had enough. It is time Muslims are punished, economically and if that doesn't work, physically. We tried the, 'most Muslims are good guys' approach and that hasn't worked. It is now getting closer to the time to call in the bad cop.

If I may offer a suggestion Frogger, I think you should pay a visit to a local mosque. I think you might find a group of people just as frustrated as you.

Vile,
Some of it is venting spleen and some of it is the fact that I have simply had it with Muslims threatening any who disagree with them or who don't walk on eggs when discussing them.

Muslims have a habit of threatening people they dislike with death and destruction. I don't think I am alone in becoming more and more fed up with their behavior. If you threaten me once I will probably overlook it as an over-reaction but an anomaly. If you do it twice I will be annoyed but still overlook it. When it becomes standard behavior to act in this way, to threaten, to riot, even to kill, I finally say, fuck you.

I am sick and tired of being threatened by Muslims every time they don't like something. I am sick and tired of Muslims feeling free to insult the West, to threaten Jews and Christians and then to riot when someone says something negative about them.

I am arriving at a point where I say, if there is going to be war between Muslims and the rest of the world let them bring it on, but if they do let us no longer restrain ourselves. If they hit us with a rock we should hit them with a boulder. If they hit us with a stick we should hit them back with a log. So long as the world allows Muslims to act the way they do they will continue. It is time to start letting them know that their actions have consequences.

I didn't feel this way even after 9/11 but I have finally had enough. It is time Muslims are punished, economically and if that doesn't work, physically. We tried the, 'most Muslims are good guys' approach and that hasn't worked. It is now getting closer to the time to call in the bad cop.

This type of thinking is pretty understandable & I tend to share the frustration, but it is a knee jerk reaction. It is a reaction not really based on much apart from what you see on TV.

I think Muslims do need to understand that No, we will not apologise. Yes, the west is fed up with such child like tantrums, but it gets a bit dangerous once we go down the path of thinking that every muslim is rioting when clearly only a tiny percentage are, and start talking about taking them all out. We don't see the average person on TV, the mother bringing up her kids, the average lives and so on.

Frogger, I did not start out as angry as I am now either. There are probably a lot of people that are beginning to realize that the passive way is probably not going to work in this situation.

I believe that hope with caution is prudent.
America is a tolerant nation, but to keep a loaded gun near(a symbolism) as we observe is probably not a bad idea.

Vilepagan,

Even Christians believe in just wars. When people are killed for no other crime than being Jewish or Christian fighting against those doing the killing is just.

You say it is only a minority of Muslims acting in this way. I say you are wrong. While only a minority are engaged in the actual killing a majority are lending them moral support and egging them on. When a Muslim government says the Pope is no better than Hitler that is not some small minority of Muslims acting out. When Salman Rushdie has to hide to save his life because no Muslims speak out against the fatwa against him that is not a small minority of Muslims acting up. When a Muslim government calls for the destruction of Israel that is not a small minority acting up.

The Muslim world is filled with rabid dogs who will bite at anyone near them with or without reason. When faced with a rabid dog you kill it. Perhaps you are willing to be tolerant and give the Muslim community chance after chance after chance to change its behavior. I no longer am.

For every googs or Innocent Sweetie there are a hundred Muslims who would happily slit my throat because I am a Christian and yours because you are an atheist. I am not willing to meekly lie down like a lamb before the slaughter house waiting for the butcher to come for me. The Jews did that in the thirties and forties and look what it got them. I say, fight fire with fire. If it is jihad the Muslems of the world want lets give them jihad.

DECLARATION CONCERNING POPE'S REGENSBURG ADDRESS
VATICAN CITY, SEP 15, 2006 (VIS) - Yesterday evening, Holy See Press Office Director Fr. Federico Lombardi S.J. released the following declaration to journalists concerning the interpretation of certain passages of the address delivered by the Holy Father at the University of Regensburg on September 12.

"Concerning the reaction of Muslim leaders to certain passages of the Holy Father's address at the University of Regensburg, it should be noted that what the Holy Father has to heart - and which emerges from an attentive reading of the text - is a clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence.

"It was certainly not the intention of the Holy Father to undertake a comprehensive study of the jihad and of Muslim ideas on the subject, still less to offend the sensibilities of Muslim faithful.

"Quite the contrary, what emerges clearly from the Holy Father's discourses is a warning, addressed to Western culture, to avoid 'the contempt for God and the cynicism that considers mockery of the sacred to be an exercise of freedom.' A just consideration of the religious dimension is, in fact, an essential premise for fruitful dialogue with the great cultures and religions of the world. And indeed, in concluding his address in Regensburg, Benedict XVI affirmed how 'the world's profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions. A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures.'

"What is clear then, is the Holy Father's desire to cultivate an attitude of respect and dialogue towards other religions and cultures, including, of course, Islam."


ISLAM WAS NOT POPE'S FOCUS, SPOKESMAN REPEATS
Sep. 14 (CWNews.com) - Father Federico Lombardi, the new director of the Vatican press office, has renewed his argument that Pope Benedict XVI did not intend a condemnation of Islam in his speech on September 12 at the University of Regensburg.

When he denounced the use of violence in the cause of religion, Father Lombardi said, the Pope was setting out "an important starting point in the speech, but it is not the aim of the speech."

"It wasn't among the Pope's intentions to make a detailed study of jihad or of Muslim thought on this subject, much less to offend the sensibilities of Muslim believers," the Vatican spokesman told reporters on September 14. On the contrary, he said, Pope Benedict intends "to cultivate an attitude of respect and dialogue toward other religions and cultures, and clearly toward Islam."

The central point of the Pope's presentation at the university, Father Lombardi said, was that the tendency to dismiss religious attitudes and arguments is a serious flaw in Western thought today. He cited a key sentence from the Pope's lecture: "Yet the world’s profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions."

The Vatican spokesman sought to direct reporters' attention to the central theme of the Pope's talk-- which, he said, was the need to include theological reflection in academic life. The Pope's speech, Father Lombardi said, was a scholarly argument that "an idea of reason reduced simply to the criteria of natural or positive science cannot respond to the needs of man today."

The Pope, he said, advocated a broader vision of human knowledge, in which "the religious dimension is essential." This broad vision was contrasted against an approach to knowledge limited to "purely mathematical-scientific of experimental criteria."

The speech in Regensburg also show the rich scholarly and cultural background that Pope Benedict possesses, the Jesuit spokesman said. "In about 10 minutes," he observed, "the Pope was able to give us an enormously broad view of cultural history and of the history of theology, bringing it all up to date."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They've stated their intent... let's see the chosen reaction...

The Pop0e quotes a long dead emperor who said Moslems are violent and how do they react?


With violence.

Talk about proving a point.

That is the whole point.

When we let the Muslims take away our freedom of speech then we are half way conquered.

Oddly the liberals will support Muslims who want to take away all our freedoms and attack Bush when he wants to take away a few freedoms that Muslims use to take away all freedom.

Vilepagan,

Even Christians believe in just wars. When people are killed for no other crime than being Jewish or Christian fighting against those doing the killing is just.

Fair enough. May I ask what group is killing people for being jewish or for being Christian?


You say it is only a minority of Muslims acting in this way. I say you are wrong. While only a minority are engaged in the actual killing a majority are lending them moral support and egging them on.

You can say I'm wrong all you like, but I'll wait to agree with you until after you've proven that premise to me, or at least given some evidence that supports it.


When a Muslim government says the Pope is no better than Hitler that is not some small minority of Muslims acting out.

Of course it is, unless you believe that what is arguably the most fundamentalist Islamic government on the planet represents all Muslims, or even most of them.


When Salman Rushdie has to hide to save his life because no Muslims speak out against the fatwa against him that is not a small minority of Muslims acting up. When a Muslim government calls for the destruction of Israel that is not a small minority acting up.

Firstly, many Muslims did speak out against the fatwa calling for Rushdie's death, and secondly you are once again equating the government of Iran with all muslims, a notion that is beneath your intellect.


The Muslim world is filled with rabid dogs who will bite at anyone near them with or without reason.

Propaganda at its lowest. Comparing muslims with animals, and diseased animals at that.


Perhaps you are willing to be tolerant and give the Muslim community chance after chance after chance to change its behavior. I no longer am.

Perhaps you should rethink the notion that people who live in other countries and hold different belief systems should conform their behavior to your standards of right and wrong.


For every googs or Innocent Sweetie there are a hundred Muslims who would happily slit my throat because I am a Christian and yours because you are an atheist.

Seemingly you disagree with killing someone because they are a Jew, a Christian, or an atheist, but you advocate punishing people because they are Muslim.


I am not willing to meekly lie down like a lamb before the slaughter house waiting for the butcher to come for me. The Jews did that in the thirties and forties and look what it got them.

No one is suggesting you should allow yourself to come to harm Frogger, I'm just saying you shouldn't perpetrate violence out of anger, frustration, or misguided fear.


I say, fight fire with fire. If it is jihad the Muslems of the world want lets give them jihad.

If it's what they want? I thought you were pretty convinced all muslims (except a few like Innocent Sweety and googs), wanted jihad.

That is the whole point.

When we let the Muslims take away our freedom of speech then we are half way conquered.

Agreed. Of course it's difficult to see how muslims could do that, so I'm not sure it's worth worrying about.


Oddly the liberals will support Muslims who want to take away all our freedoms...

Of course reb...liberals support muslims who want to take away our freedoms...do you write Bush's speeches by any chance? Where do you get this nonsense?

Fair enough. May I ask what group is killing people for being jewish or for being Christian?

No one is suggesting you should allow yourself to come to harm Frogger, I'm just saying you shouldn't perpetrate violence out of anger, frustration, or misguided fear.

================================================== =

Five Palestinian area churches of various denominations attacked with guns and firebombs following remarks by pope.

Police take up positions around churches in Nabulus to protect them.

Gaza City militants open fire at Greek Orthodox Church.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/16092006/2/world-5-churches-attacked-palestinian-areas-following-pope-s-comments.html

Agreed. Of course it's difficult to see how muslims could do that, so I'm not sure it's worth worrying about.

Theodore Van go killed for insulting Muslims. World riots because of a cartoon in Denmark. All Islam in a fit about a few words the Pope spoke. It is all designed to make people only say what Muslims what approve.



Of course reb...liberals support muslims who want to take away our freedoms...do you write Bush's speeches by any chance? Where do you get this nonsense?

Bush wants to keep prisoners and have military trials, these are the people trying to kill us but liberals want them to have the same freedom as civil people instead of radical fanatics dedicated to kill us. Some were released and found to be fighting us again.

Liberals fight the phone call monitoring which helps us know what terrorist are up to.


Liberal make sure that Muslim prisoners have a Koran and continue their Islamic Jihad teaching while in our prisons for the samething.

We must give up some freedom to protect our democracy from those who believe in submission to their will.

We try to sound open and enlightened by claiming "well this group would react similarly. they're not so different", but our true beliefs are revealed in our actions.

Do you think Andres Serrano lived in fear after 'Piss Christ" (a photo of a cricifix in the artist's urine)?
Or Chris Ofili after "Sensation" (A picture of Mary smeared with dung)?
Will their experiences intimidate other artists from creating anti-christian art?
No, no and no.

But when the Muhammad cartoons were an issue, most newspapers wouldn't even display them in their story.

So we can talk about how there are fanatics in every religion, but our actions give our true beliefs away.

I have never heard of 'Piss Christ' or 'Sensation'. There is a big difference between the Pope making that sort of statement, a fairly prominent person, and some artist making a piece of controversal artwork.

================================================== =

Five Palestinian area churches of various denominations attacked with guns and firebombs following remarks by pope.

Attacked by whom?

You could say they were attacked by Muslims and you'd be correct. To be more correct you'd have to add a few descriptors to the muslims, like disaffected, extremists, etc. You could also say that they were attacked by brown-skinned unshaven men and you'd be largely correct, yet it would be the height of phobia to start tapping the phones of all dark-skinned bearded men. I'm not sure why we choose to accept these people as religious enemies especially when it's quite clear that the terrorists would have it so. I advocate a tolerant approach to Islam not because I have any liking for the religion, but rather because I think it's in our long-term interest to do so. The government of Iran, and no doubt the Taliban and some others, would like nothing better than to foment a war between Islam and Christianity. It is in our interests not to even play that game. We would be much better served IMO, if we state unequivocally, and at every opportunity, that this is not a war between Islam and the West. We must treat the terrorists for what they are, international criminals that deserve no succor from civilized men. If we continue to blame Islamists, Islamo-fascists etc., we help Al-Quaida and other groups convince dozens more that we really are in a war against Islam.

Bush wants to keep prisoners and have military trials, these are the people trying to kill us but liberals want them to have the same freedom as civil people instead of radical fanatics dedicated to kill us.Nonsense. Saying it is wrong to imprison someone indefinitely without trial is not the same as saying they should be free. Make sure you count the Founding Fathers among these 'liberals' you despise.Some were released and found to be fighting us again.Sometimes bad guys are let go in any system. Or perhaps they were radicalized by being unjustly imprisoned. Many who were completely innocent have been released after long stays in Guantanamo. We're lucky more of them don't hate our guts. Liberals fight the phone call monitoring which helps us know what terrorist are up to.Please knock off this disingenuous crap. Monitor all you want. Just get a warrant before (or after) you do. It isn't hard to obey the law (unless you're a criminal). Liberal make sure that Muslim prisoners have a Koran and continue their Islamic Jihad teaching while in our prisons for the samething.Would you deny a Bible to a Christian prisoner? We must give up some freedom to protect our democracy from those who believe in submission to their will.You want to change the Constitution? Pass an amendment. Until then, consider it the law of the land. Because it is.

I have never heard of 'Piss Christ' or 'Sensation'. There is a big difference between the Pope making that sort of statement, a fairly prominent person, and some artist making a piece of controversal artwork.

What remark would that be? And what was the meaning and intent of that remark? He was speaking in an academic setting to a group of academics.

This whole thing is a ridiculous.
Oh...and he's not apologizing for something which he did not say. So we will see how far this goes reaction wise. Like Brooks said our actions reflect our belief system.

My thoughts on this convoluted situation.......

Are all Muslims "bad" people that want all non-believers dead/converted? No

Are Americans getting sick of this "I'm offended" bull shit? Yes

This is a complicated culture clash that you have to look at from several perspectives. We in the US were raised in a society that offers religious freedom and a great deal of separation of church and state.... we even have great debates over the Pledge and "in God we trust" on our money. These Islamic countries and areas (that are pissing us off), have a religion driven government that educates/makes laws/governs based mostly on their interpretation of the Koran. Can you imagine a gay pride parade in Tehran? It is acceptable (and often encouraged) for Muslims to "protest" in the streets when someone says/does something offensive to the church/state. What is not tolerated is a protest against the church/state or ideals contrary to the controlling Mullahs/Ayahtollahs views.

I think what we expect from the Muslim countries, is that they act more like the US populace when things happen. i.e. When Fred Phelps "Church" protests at the funeral of a fallen soldier... they are greated with verbal assaults and protesters to their "beliefs" (of course they are only in it for the lawsuits, they are just a tick on the ass of society). This is not going to happen unless these Islamic countries change the way they are governed/controlled, which may not ever occur anytime soon.

We in the US expect the Muslim community to raise up against the terrorist groups (as we would if it was here), not silently watch as a holy war is quickly snow-balling downhill. "Ain't gonna happen" I'm afraid.

As far as old-rebs concern over losing our freedom of speech, the PC police are doing quite nicely taking that away (but that's another post entirely) :mad:

Oh well, enough ramblings from a disgruntled old phart.

I have never heard of 'Piss Christ' or 'Sensation'. There is a big difference between the Pope making that sort of statement, a fairly prominent person, and some artist making a piece of controversal artwork.

Muslims have no problem calling Jews, "Pigs and dogs".

Iran Muslim leader calls for the destruction of Israel and the US using his favorite names, Little Satan and Big Satan. And, he sets out to do what he says. They are terrorist but we are not allowed to speak even the truth.

How insulting is that?

Clever Muslims only allow insults to go one way.

My thoughts on this convoluted situation.......


I think what we expect from the Muslim countries, is that they act more like the US populace when things happen.


This is the point I clumsily alluded to when I suggested to Frogger that he shouldn't expect people in other countries to conform their behavior to his standards. You did a much better job OP. :-)


Oh well, enough ramblings from a disgruntled old phart.

Welcome back Old Phart, where ya been?

Vilepagan,

I'm no expecting or asking that Muslims become little Americans. I am asking that they exhibit traits that are universally expected of people, ie, to not kill people because of their faith, to not call for the total destruction of another country because of the religion of its people, to not cut off people's heads, to not plant bombs in places of worship and crowded market places, to not target women, children and other non-combatants.

The Pope hit the nail on the head when he quoted Paleologues. Islam is a violent religion that understands onlyl violence. When people do not respond violently to Islamic threats those people are viewed as weak. Only when people respond with overwhelming force with Muslim stop their reign of terror.

It is long past time that the world kowtowed to Islam. If it is Jihad they want lets give it to them.

Taliban demands Pope to apologise for anti-Islam remarks[...]


The remarks were "obviously part of a crusader war that the West, chiefly America and (President) Bush, is waging against Islam and Muslims," he said.
[...]

Just as I said at the start of the post - these guys are so predictable! :mad:

By the way - the Pope is sorry now! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5351988.stm

(check out the banner at the picture!)

What remark would that be? And what was the meaning and intent of that remark? He was speaking in an academic setting to a group of academics.

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman"

How could you not find this comment offensive if your prophet was Muhammad?

Muslims have no problem calling Jews, "Pigs and dogs".

Iran Muslim leader calls for the destruction of Israel and the US using his favorite names, Little Satan and Big Satan.
And because they insult us means that the Popes' comments are not insults? I'm not denying that they have insulted us constantly, but you really can't deny that the Pope insulted them with his comment.

Just as I said at the start of the post - these guys are so predictable! :mad:

By the way - the Pope is sorry now! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5351988.stm

(check out the banner at the picture!)

That was no apology. He apologised for them interpreting it as an insult, he didn't apologise for the comment. The Pope isn't working towards peace with that type of additude.

Theodore Van go killed for insulting Muslims. World riots because of a cartoon in Denmark. All Islam in a fit about a few words the Pope spoke. It is all designed to make people only say what Muslims what approve.




Bush wants to keep prisoners and have military trials, these are the people trying to kill us but liberals want them to have the same freedom as civil people instead of radical fanatics dedicated to kill us. Some were released and found to be fighting us again.

Liberals fight the phone call monitoring which helps us know what terrorist are up to.


Liberal make sure that Muslim prisoners have a Koran and continue their Islamic Jihad teaching while in our prisons for the samething.

We must give up some freedom to protect our democracy from those who believe in submission to their will.


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. " Benji....

Well said....

The Pope Is Right
In the midst of fighting radical Muslims throughout the world, we must remember that Islam is a religion of peace. (http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/18458.html)

The latest international outrage expressed by practitioners of the "religion of peace" is over comments made by Pope Benedict XVI. It seems a week doesn't go by without the Islamic world being offended by something someone says, writes or draws.

A Danish newspaper publishes some cartoons depicting Mohammed, and Muslims respond violently. Some left-wing Newsweek reporter erroneously writes about a Koran being flushed down a toilet at Gitmo and there are riots and deaths as a result. President George W. Bush calls terrorists and militants Islamic Fascists and not only are the Muslims outraged, but the liberals go ballistic in their response, which was similar to their response when President Ronald Reagan called the Soviet Union "the Evil Empire."

The pope's remarks came when he was quoting a conversation that took place in Ankara in the year 1391 between Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject Christianity and Islam.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached," the pope quoted Manuel as saying.

After quoting this, the pope then quoted an academic, Theodore Khoury, who edited the original dialogue, as saying, "In Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality."

Most political leaders are ignorant of Islam and the problems Muslims face when attempting to practice a cohesive religion. Islam is and always was an ambiguous religion. In order to understand how one group can argue that Islam is a religion of peace while another group commits atrocities in the name of Islam, one must return to the source of this religion which is diametrically opposed to liberal democracy.

The Koran is actually a very confusing book. It does not provide practitioners of Islam a clear and unambiguous roadmap to heaven. In fact, Arabic scholars have explained that the Koran is divided into two contradictory -- opposing -- viewpoints of how Muslims should interact with one another as well as non-believers. In fact, there are only two points on which all Muslims agree: one must accept Allah and Allah's Trinity (Din, Dunya, Dwala); and Mohammad is the last and foremost prophet of God.

Scholars divide the Koran as written by Muhammad into the Mecca period from 610 to 622; and the Medina period from 622 to 632. Mecca is best described as a period of tolerance, even pluralism. It was a belief in "live and let live."

"You shall have your religion and I shall have mine."

However, the Medina period can be characterized as a religion delving into politics, power and armed conflict in the name of Allah.

"And kill them wherever you find them."

So when we hear Islamic leaders discuss their beliefs, we come away as confused as the Muslims themselves. The fact is that some may be referring to Mecca, some may be referring to Medina, and some may be referring to both the Mecca and Medina. Besides the confusion caused by the Koran, add other components of Islam such as Sunna, Hadith and Rivya, and it's no wonder that Koranic scholars are at odds with one another.

In short, Islam is at once a religion and an ideology. It's totalitarian ideology is comparable to Nazism, Communism and Fascism.Islamic leaders in the United States tell President George W. Bush that Islam is a religion of peace and give him some verses from the Koran and he relays this to the American people. As with most politically correct jargon, people are encouraged to deny the evidence of their own senses.

Practitioners of Islam are today involved in conflagrations throughout the world. Here are a few violent conflicts occurring today:

* The continued battle in Iraq has morphed from the deposing of a dictator into civil unrest by opposing sects of Islam, as well as Al-Qaeda terrorists who believe in an Islamic mission of world domination.

* In Afghanistan, the remnants of the radical Islamic groups the Taliban and Al-Qaeda continue to wreak havoc in that fledgling democracy.

* In Somalia, Islamists have all but overthrown a newly formed government. These Islamists have been responsible for not only violence, but also the starvation of the Somali people. The unrest is growing, with neighboring Ethiopia becoming involved in the armed conflict.

* In India, a predominately Hindu nation, Islamists have conducted terrorist attacks and Kashmir remains a region of violent contention by Islamic and Hindu residents.

* Terrorist attacks have occurred in Spain and Europe. The one armed conflict occurring in Russia is perpetuated by Islamists. In one attack, these Muslim terrorist invaded a school and brutally murdered children.

* Recently Hamas and Hezbollah picked a fight with Israel and then portrayed themselves as victims, with practically the whole world playing along.

Add the Islamic terrorist operations in the Philippines, Indonesia, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc., and it is clear to most observers that there exists an asymmetric war being waged by those whose religion-ideology favors Medina over Mecca.

There is nothing new with large scale violence perpetrated by Muslims. At the end of the 19th Century, a man arose who claimed he was the Mahdi (The Guided One) -- the one promised by Mohammad -- who would unite the Islamic world either peacefully or through violence and then conquer the world for Allah's paradise.

This Mahdi created a massive army of followers who decided on the way to worshipping in Damascus -- and while there, occupying Syria -- they would overthrow the governments of the Sudan, Egypt and other nations. When the Mahdi wiped out a modern army in the desert and then invaded Khartoum, the British found it necessary to send a large force to stop him and his murderous Dervish.

In Gaza, two churches were fire bombed by Palestinians who were outraged over the Pope's comments. That from practitioners of the "religion of peace."

So prepare yourself for days and days of controversy and days and days of Pope Benedict XVI apologizing. In the midst of fighting radical Muslims throughout the world, we must remember that Islam is a religion of peace.

Jim Kouri, CPP is currently fifth vice-president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police and he's a staff writer for the New Media Alliance (thenma.org). He's former chief at a New York City housing project in Washington Heights nicknamed "Crack City" by reporters covering the drug war in the 1980s
__________________
"Come senators, congressmen please heed the call ... There's a battle outside & it's ragin ... For the times they are a-changin'"
Bob Dylan

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman"

How could you not find this comment offensive if your prophet was Muhammad?


... have you read the WHOLE thing… no… you are taking what he said out of context and having an emotional reaction just as portions of the Muslim community are doing… READ THE WHOLE THING… It is clear what he was saying…. IT IS A QUOTE… heeeeeeeeeello! He was condemning violence… he was quoting a conversation that took place in Ankara in the year 1391 between Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject Christianity and Islam.

I do not understand why this is sooooooooooooooo freaking murky to some people...

That was no apology. He apologised for them interpreting it as an insult, he didn't apologise for the comment. The Pope isn't working towards peace with that type of additude.

He isn't apologizing because HE DIDN'T say what he is accused of saying with the intent to hurt or inflame. IF he apologizes they will then say..."see he did mean it".

As Sal said, the Pope's comments have purposely been taken out of context. He need apologize for nothing.

Those who need to apologize are the Muslim clerics who call for the killing of non-Muslims, the Muslims who attacked the five Christian churches, the Muslims who cut off the heads of captured Christians and Jews, the Muslims who plant bombs in mosques and market places.

Lots of apologizing has to be done but not by the Pope.

... have you read the WHOLE thing… no… you are taking what he said out of context and having an emotional reaction just as portions of the Muslim community are doing… READ THE WHOLE THING… It is clear what he was saying…. IT IS A QUOTE… heeeeeeeeeello! He was condemning violence… he was quoting a conversation that took place in Ankara in the year 1391 between Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject Christianity and Islam.

I do not understand why this is sooooooooooooooo freaking murky to some people...

Calm down there Sal :)

I did read the entire article very carefully. Now read this - I was reminded of all this recently, when I read... of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

The quote preceeding this was the statement against Muhammad. Read this passage carefully; he states that the subject of the Byzatine Emperor is on the truth of Islam and Christianity. The Pope is claiming that the subject is the truth. Which means that he believes and supports that statement that he made against Muhammad.

You're right, it was a quote. It was a quote that the Pope endorsed as the truth.

(check out the banner at the picture!) I hardly see how that banner is any different then what comes out of Bush's mouth on a regular basis. "a final battle between good and evil"....

It is time Muslims are punished, economically and if that doesn't work, physically. We tried the, 'most Muslims are good guys' approach and that hasn't worked. It is now getting closer to the time to call in the bad cop.Dare I ask how you might punish them economically and physically?

I hardly see how that banner is any different then what comes out of Bush's mouth on a regular basis. "a final battle between good and evil"....

Nor did I say it was.

Jester,

Let's stop giving them foreign aid for one.

By punishing them physically I mean taking off the kid gloves and executing terrorists instead of letting them go or holding them in prison. I mean jailing anyone who aids a terrorist in any way, shape or form. I mean in no longer fighting them with one hand tied behind our back.

When we fought the Axis we didn't go around saying, "Ooooh, but we have maintained the moral high ground. They do this, that, and the other thing but we only respond by doing such and such." The hell with the moral high ground. We are in a war and when you fight a war you fight to win.

I don't want them to write on America's tombstone, "The Islamic terrorist won but the Americans kept the moral high ground."

The response of the religion of peace.


As security was beefed up around Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday night, the Mujahideen's Army movement in Iraq threatened to carry out a suicide attack against the Pope in revenge for his comments about Islam and jihad. On a website used by rebel movements in Iraq, a message posted by the Mujahideen's Army said members of the organization would "smash the crosses in the house of the dog from Rome."

Calm down there Sal :)
Hey, I get passionate when I can't explain something in an understandable manner... :)

The response of the religion of peace.


As security was beefed up around Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday night, the Mujahideen's Army movement in Iraq threatened to carry out a suicide attack against the Pope in revenge for his comments about Islam and jihad. On a website used by rebel movements in Iraq, a message posted by the Mujahideen's Army said members of the organization would "smash the crosses in the house of the dog from Rome."
Yeah nice. People are gonna die over this. Let's incite our followers. Not tell them to calm down and prove the quote wrong. Add a little fuel to the embers and stand back and see what happens.

It is time for reciprocity. It is the only fair thing to do.

The quote preceeding this was the statement against Muhammad. Read this passage carefully; he states that the subject of the Byzatine Emperor is on the truth of Islam and Christianity. The Pope is claiming that the subject is the truth. Which means that he believes and supports that statement that he made against Muhammad.

Actually as I read it what the Pope stated is that the Emperor was educated in both religions and the truth of both. This merely established the credentials of the Emperor for the quote that followed. (I assume you meant succeeding not preceding). Nowhere does the Pope say that he believed it. However, the Pope does go on to show that he believes conversion by the sword is wrong.

To paraphrase, I could say that a fellow poster was well-educated in such and such a matter. I may well then take one his quotes and attempt to prove him wrong.

Calm down there Sal :)

I did read the entire article very carefully. Now read this - I was reminded of all this recently, when I read... of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

The quote preceeding this was the statement against Muhammad. Read this passage carefully; he states that the subject of the Byzatine Emperor is on the truth of Islam and Christianity. The Pope is claiming that the subject is the truth. Which means that he believes and supports that statement that he made against Muhammad.

You're right, it was a quote. It was a quote that the Pope endorsed as the truth.

Ah, the beauty of the English language and the subtle nuances it can have.:confused:
As I read it, the Pope is merely giving the credentials of the Emperor as an introduction to the infamous quote. It does not mean that the Pope believes it to be true. In fact the Emperor himself may not have believed it to be true. It was an argument raised during a discussion and the thinking behind it is not clarified in the Pope's speech.
The Pope then goes on to develop from the quote the arguments why Christianity believes conversion by the sword is against God's will.

Why does the Pope have to fret about what might be a slight insult to Muslims when they call him the dog in Rome and sack his churches all over the world.

There is a religious war on now but it is only being fought by the Muslim against non-blievers.

The Christians are not fighting, they are not even allowed to speak without permission from Islam.

Why does the Pope have to fret about what might be a slight insult to Muslims when they call him the dog in Rome and sack his churches all over the world.

There is a religious war on now but it is only being fought by the Muslim against non-blievers.

The Christians are not fighting, they are not even allowed to speak without permission from Islam.
======================================
But Reb, the new "do not offend those that would kill you" is a modern day method of warfare. As yet unproven as to whether it is effective, but soon to be.
Could be that people have played too many computer games in present generations. Things are unreal.
When the reality comes home and defeat is inevitable you just hit restart.

======================================
But Reb, the new "do not offend those that would kill you" is a modern day method of warfare. As yet unproven as to whether it is effective, but soon to be.
Could be that people have played too many computer games in present generations. Things are unreal.
When the reality comes home and defeat is inevitable you just hit restart.

Enough is enough. Islamofascists learned this trick. Whenever someone says something critical about them, however justified criticism is, they rattle their knives and threaten to slit throats, forcing opponents to shut up and unleashing politically correct idiots into "sorry" mentality. This has to be stopped. Well done, Benedict XVI

Enough is enough. Islamofascists learned this trick. Whenever someone says something critical about them, however justified criticism is, they rattle their knives and threaten to slit throats, forcing opponents to shut up and unleashing politically correct idiots into "sorry" mentality. This has to be stopped. Well done, Benedict XVI
==================================================

Now Reb, you are exhibiting the kind of attitude that built and maintained this country for many years. We can't have that and give away the country too!

For example, the next time you are in the woods and a snake threatens to strike you, you just use the proper "politically correct" words to him/her and reach down and pet him. You'll see. This new method of dealing with snakes works!

A Catholic Nun was gunned down outside a childrens' hospital in Somalia.
The 65 year old lady had helped the local people in the area for almost 40 years.
Could be a response to the Pope speech.

A Catholic Nun was gunned down outside a childrens' hospital in Somalia.
The 65 year old lady had helped the local people in the area for almost 40 years.
Could be a response to the Pope speech.

The Muslims gun down a Nun who has spent her life doing good deeds and the Muslims say, "See what the Pope made us do". Criminal mentality.

If Muslims can't give religious freedom to non-muslims then we shouldn't give total relligious freedom to Muslims in our country who hate america and many of them are wanting so bad to destroy us that they are willing to commit suicide just to kill innocents.
Reciprocity, Now!

However, Muslims have to realize that just because someone who is ignorant about Islam makes a remark towards their religon, it doesn't make it acceptable to riot..

That is the best statement on the thread, AFAIC.

I may or may not agree with what the Pope said, but he has every right to say it, without other religious people (iow, other superstitionists) going crazy and threatening to kill people over it.

Damn, I wish these superstitious cretins of ALL sects would get a life ad stop wanting to murder everyone who believes in a different invisible deity.

The Pope just doesn't understand Islam, Jihad is a personal thing to fight evil, it has nothing to do with Christians.


Sep. 18, 2006 17:26
Iraq's al-Qaida threatens to 'destroy the cross'


Al-Qaida operatives in Iraq threatened on Monday to "destroy the cross and to slash the throats of those who believe in the cross."

The group cautioned Pope Benedict XVI, who sparked anger among Muslims worldwide after making remarks last week about Islam, that they would continue fighting their holy war against the rest of the world's non-believers.

The Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups that includes al-Qaida in Iraq, issued a statement on their Islamic website, warning the pope of their agenda to take over Rome.

"You infidels and despotic, we will continue our jihad (holy war) and never stop until God avails us to chop your necks and raise the fluttering banner of monotheism when God's rule is established governing all people and nations," the statement said.

The group also warned the non-Muslim world that an ultimatum would be given - "conversion to Islam or death by the sword."

Apparently the Pope now has a death edict out on his head. I guess he will go and live with Salman Rushdie in hiding.

Who do these people think they are? Time to lock & load. The "burning box head figure with a flat nose and wide eyes" is apparently the Pope.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42101000/jpg/_42101118_ap416basraflag.jpg

It's insane - It's a sure thing everytime. The Shura Counsil of Iraq (AQ affiliate I think) are calling for the slitting of all christian throat BECAUSE OF WHAT ONE MAN SAID! Jeez - I say screw 'em - too bad those countries has all that oil... otherwise we could just byebye, see you in a few centuries and see how they get on their own... It seems like thats what they want anyway, so everybodies happy!

Who do these people think they are? Time to lock & load.

?!?!?!?

Don't you see the hypocrisy in what you're saying here?!?!?

You (justifiably) chastize people (certain radical Muslims) and are dissapproving of them for talking about killing somone (the Pope, in this instance) over something he said.

Now your response to that occurence is --"Time to lock and load"........?!?!?!?

IOW, you're now doing the same thing you've just chastized the Muslims for doing!!

?!?!?!?

Don't you see the hypocrisy in what you're saying here?!?!?

You (justifiably) chastize people (certain radical Muslims) and are dissapproving of them for talking about killing somone (the Pope, in this instance) over something he said.

Now your response to that occurence is --"Time to lock and load"........?!?!?!?

IOW, you're now doing the same thing you've just chastized the Muslims for doing!!

Never defend yourself or even think of defending yourself from Islam because it will make you as bad as they are. Just stand still like a deer in the headlights, there is nothing to fear.

It's insane - It's a sure thing everytime. The Shura Counsil of Iraq (AQ affiliate I think) are calling for the slitting of all christian throat BECAUSE OF WHAT ONE MAN SAID! Jeez - I say screw 'em - too bad those countries has all that oil... otherwise we could just byebye, see you in a few centuries and see how they get on their own... It seems like thats what they want anyway, so everybodies happy!
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Hey, oil burns.
I don't give a damn if it gets to be 5 bucks a gallon by doing without Middle Eastern oil.
Hard to drive on cheap gas with your throat cut. These people are not joking around!
Time to get all of our people out of the Middle East and warm up the big mushroom. We might need it.

don't you think that's a little drastic?

don't you think that's a little drastic?
===========================================

I said "warm up", meaning be prepared.
Drastic times require drastic measures.

Or are you asking do I think cutting peoples throats in reprisal for verbal speech. If that is the question, Yes I think that is drastic.

i mean, ok if you just meant warming up, but our president seems to be quite trigger happy, so if it was warming up, it may not be for long before he decides to use it. if you can blow up just the people who deserve it and somehow create a force field to protect the innocent ones, then go for it.

i mean, ok if you just meant warming up, but our president seems to be quite trigger happy, so if it was warming up, it may not be for long before he decides to use it. if you can blow up just the people who deserve it and somehow create a force field to protect the innocent ones, then go for it.
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O.k., I conceed. Send a Volkswagen to bring out the innocent. :drive: :thumbs:

i like those cars. can it have flowers painted on the sides? :)

I would be willing to put my cvar up on bllocks and buy a Vespa if it would mean the end of Muslim terrorism.

Both Drew and Dan have a point. Now is the time to 'lock and load', not after we allow them to terrorize and kill innocenty people.

It is also time form an overwhelming show of force. Pick an uninhabitedpart of the nMiddle East and drop enough big bombs toip fuse the sand into glass. Let them know that if it is killing they want it is killing they will get. (and mean it.)

:flowers: i like those cars. can it have flowers painted on the sides? :) :flowers:

:flowers: :flowers:



ha ha ha ha thank you very much! :)

?!?!?!?

Don't you see the hypocrisy in what you're saying here?!?!?

You (justifiably) chastize people (certain radical Muslims) and are dissapproving of them for talking about killing somone (the Pope, in this instance) over something he said.

Now your response to that occurence is --"Time to lock and load"........?!?!?!?

IOW, you're now doing the same thing you've just chastized the Muslims for doing!!

Yes you are right, but this is what it will end up as. You can't reason with these people. Hopefully it will calm down. It might not be tommorrow, it might not be next year, but this situation is going to get ugly, very ugly. When people start calling for the death of the Pope - then people are not going to stand by and watch that happen.

isn't there a saying about it'll get worse before it gets better or something like that? (btw i agree with the hoping it will calm down one day)

Now I see where French leader Chivac wants to compromise with Iran.

Yeh, right. :hahanot:

It really is offending.
Sure it is. Maybe you should gather together en masse while burning pictures of the Pope only to set fire to Christian churches in 6 of our states. So far, I think something like 8 or 9 churches have already been destroyed, and why??? Because apparently the fucking Muslims are "offended" yet again. Yes, you heard me correctly....again. Well, at least this time they have a good reason to call for generalized "death and destruction", right? :rolleyes: I mean, after all, the Pope just insulted them by QUOTING the works of another man during an academic lecture. Just on a side note, I love the fact that you people always demand an apology at gun point while setting fires to poorly constructed effigies, and then you have the balls to call your religion one of peace and tolerance. Talk about Islam in a way that "offends" Muslims, and your penalty is death. In light of that alone, I vote we nuke the Middle East.

We need to hit the Middle East with a Smart bomb that will blow the wool off the eyes of the blind followers of the "religion of Peace".

Wouldn't it be something if you woke up one day and all muslims accepted Jews and Christians as having the right to their beliefs and lives?

Hey, this gives me an idea, remember Martin Luther Kings speech, "I had a Dream". It came true for MLK, maybe it could come true for the Pope and the free world.

Perhaps you should rethink the notion that people who live in other countries and hold different belief systems should conform their behavior to your standards of right and wrong.
Then what the hell are they doing DEMANDING an apology for quoting a 12th century Byzantine Emperor, who carried on the conversation in question some 600 plus years ago with an "educated" Persian????

They're the ones demanding shit, not us. We want to make their lives better, and they want to kill us. There's a HUGE difference between us philosophically and morally, and you can "liberalize" this conversation until the cows come home for all I care, but that doesn't change the fact that these people have a primitive streak rivaled only by rabid dogs. They're as inflexible and intolerant a people as I've ever encountered in my entire life.

Lock and load? Nuke the Middle East? Drop a few demo bombs?

Wow. Outrage is an interesting thing. In the other guy it's a sign of instability, evil, and maybe even subhuman thinking, but if we are the ones outraged it's a sign of strength, resolve, and patriotism. Many muslims are outraged, rightly or wrongly, by what the Pope said in his speech, and when a few individuals, likely at the behest of a few more troublemakers with a political agenda, cause trouble by rioting, what is the response from the posters on this forum?

It could be summed up as...

"How dare they be violent. We should kill them for it." :confused: