Lock and load? Nuke the Middle East? Drop a few demo bombs?

Wow. Outrage is an interesting thing. In the other guy it's a sign of instability, evil, and maybe even subhuman thinking, but if we are the ones outraged it's a sign of strength, resolve, and patriotism. Many muslims are outraged, rightly or wrongly, by what the Pope said in his speech, and when a few individuals, likely at the behest of a few more troublemakers with a political agenda, cause trouble by rioting, what is the response from the posters on this forum?

It could be summed up as...

"How dare they be violent. We should kill them for it." :confused:

If your neighbor threatens to kill you and has alread made several attempts then what to do? Just wait till he succeeds or get out and get him first to protect yourself and family.

The people calling for nukes are looking for a quck solution but there is no quick solution. Thatis no solution at all, You can't kill a religion with a bomb.

In the West, we see the world today as something that static and will last over the centurys while the Muslims know it is changing everyday and everyday they are making it change by putting more and more radicals in the West and working for the day when they will have the power to take over.

The Muslims are not outraged by what the Pope said, They wouldn't know what the pope said if their Imams didn't tell them and get them fired up to go out and raise hell for God.

Then what the hell are they doing DEMANDING an apology for quoting a 12th century Byzantine Emperor, who carried on the conversation in question some 600 plus years ago with an "educated" Persian????

They're the ones demanding shit, not us.

I didn't say they were correct in their interpretation of the Pope's remarks.


We want to make their lives better, and they want to kill us.

A very biased perspective.


There's a HUGE difference between us philosophically and morally,....

Yes philosophically, which is where morals come from. We have a different moral outlook, but that's not to say one outlook is the correct one.


....and you can "liberalize" this conversation until the cows come home for all I care, but that doesn't change the fact that these people have a primitive streak rivaled only by rabid dogs. They're as inflexible and intolerant a people as I've ever encountered in my entire life.

You probably could have left that part off...;-)

If your neighbor threatens to kill you and has alread made several attempts then what to do? Just wait till he succeeds or get out and get him first to protect yourself and family.

Call the police.


You can't kill a religion with a bomb.

Why would you want to kill a religion, reb?


In the West, we see the world today as something that static and will last over the centurys while the Muslims know it is changing everyday and everyday they are making it change by putting more and more radicals in the West and working for the day when they will have the power to take over.

Now that's what my grandma would call "crazy talk". :-)

wait till he succeeds or get out and get him first to protect yourself and family.

Call the police.

The USA is the world policeman.
//////////////////////////////
Quote:
You can't kill a religion with a bomb.

Why would you want to kill a religion, reb?

Islam does not allow Muslims to leave Islam. It does not allow people of other faiths to exercise their religions freely, let alone preach them freely. Islam does not recognize equal human rights for those who are not Muslims nor does it recognize equality for women. Islam does not allow freedom of thought let alone freedom of speech. That is why democracies in Islamic countries don’t work. As long as these countries remain Islamic, there simply can’t be any democracy. As long as they remain undemocratic, they will be a danger to themselves and to the world.

[/quote
//////////////////////////////
Quote:
In the West, we see the world today as something that static and will last over the centurys while the Muslims know it is changing everyday and everyday they are making it change by putting more and more radicals in the West and working for the day when they will have the power to take over.

Now that's what my grandma would call "crazy talk". :-)
[quote]
The problem is that Muslims are not going to blend. For that they have to give up their faith. This means that once they become the majority, they will not respect the human rights of others and will terminate all freedoms. The non Muslims in their own countries will be treated as second class citizens and even persecuted the way Hindus are persecuted in Afghanistan , Pakistan and Bangladesh and Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians and Baha’is are mistreated in Iran.

Sometimes the reality is just too horrible to bear but it is best to not bury your head in the sand.

I love how the pope quoted a mideval emperor. You know mideval as in "the dark ages" as in The muslims were making great strides in science, art etc. while the christians were being enslaved, tortured and denied science, non-religious are etc....

- too bad those countries has all that oil... otherwise we could just byebye, see you in a few centuries and see how they get on their own... It seems like thats what they want anyway, so everybodies happy!
Actually, Canada has enough oil to fuel both countries for a few centuries, it would just be expensive to produce...but maybe in terms of blood and human life it is still the cheaper alternative.

The USA is the world policeman.


Says you.


Islam does not allow Muslims to leave Islam. It does not allow people of other faiths to exercise their religions freely, let alone preach them freely. Islam does not recognize equal human rights for those who are not Muslims nor does it recognize equality for women. Islam does not allow freedom of thought let alone freedom of speech. That is why democracies in Islamic countries don’t work. As long as these countries remain Islamic, there simply can’t be any democracy. As long as they remain undemocratic, they will be a danger to themselves and to the world.

What you say here you can't apply to Islam in general, but some of the things you say may, or may not, apply to countries with muslim governments, depending on which muslim ruled country you go to.


Sometimes the reality is just too horrible to bear but it is best to not bury your head in the sand.

Because of course anyone who doesn't agree with your dire assessment must be burying their head in the sand.

Actually, Canada has enough oil to fuel both countries for a few centuries, it would just be expensive to produce...but maybe in terms of blood and human life it is still the cheaper alternative.

Yeah it takes enough natural gas to heat a family house for a month to extract 1 barrel of oil from the tar sands.

I love how the pope quoted a midieval emperor. You know midieval as in "the dark ages" as in The muslims were making great strides in science, art etc. while the christians were being enslaved, tortured and denied science, non-religious are etc....

OK, so what the hell happened? Why did things come to a screeching halt for them and the christian world progress by leaps and bounds?

Never defend yourself or even think of defending yourself from Islam ........

I won't, old-reb.

Because Islam poses zero threat to ME.

You are getting your panties in a bunch because a small handful of religious fanantics (IOW, exactly the same type of person that we sometimes see in this country, such as Fred Phelps) 10,000 miles away are screeching "Death to the Pope!".

Big deal. It does not mean that tiny contingent of fanatics will kill --or even TRY to kill--- the Pope. If you were sitting here next to me, I would bet you $20,000 dollars cash that when this entire incident is long forgotten (say, a year, to be extremely generous) that no Muslim person will have harmed a hair on the head of the Pope..........much LESS you or I.

There's probably 100 times as much chance that some mouth-breathing fundamentalist Christian in thiscountry will somehow cause harm to me or someone i love than any Muslim person in the world.

I won't, old-reb.

Because Islam poses zero threat to ME.

You are getting your panties in a bunch because a small handful of religious fanantics (IOW, exactly the same type of person that we sometimes see in this country, such as Fred Phelps) 10,000 miles away are screeching "Death to the Pope!".

Big deal. It does not mean that tiny contingent of fanatics will kill --or even TRY to kill--- the Pope. If you were sitting here next to me, I would bet you $20,000 dollars cash that when this entire incident is long forgotten (say, a year, to be extremely generous) that no Muslim person will have harmed a hair on the head of the Pope..........much LESS you or I.

There's probably 100 times as much chance that some mouth-breathing fundamentalist Christian in thiscountry will somehow cause harm to me or someone i love than any Muslim person in the world.

I used to laugh a bunch of Muslim clowns chanting "Death to America" and burning our flag. I thought, "they can't hurt us and it is just BS anyway". Well, after 9/11, I realized that they ment it and that they can attack us. They were going for the White house, (congress, senate, president), trade center, and our military center. They were hoping to destroy the US government, finiances and defenses. Now they have my attention.

How many years did it take to take the Christian center, Consatineople, by the sword?

I listened tonight to an Arab talk, I believe his name is Amir, he seems to be quite famous in some circles. He has had discussions with Bin Laden and reported on them.

He said that several days ago an up high leader in Pakistan of al Quada told him to tell all Muslims in New York and Washington to leave the area.
Amir said that he really believed that something will happen, it could be 2 weeks or 2 months.

He contacted the Federal authorities and they paid no attention to him.
He contacted several news agencies and they would not pick up the story.

He is confused that authorities are ignoring the warning as they did before 9/11.

This is the same man that told the government, when they said Bin Laden was possibly dead, that he was not and would soon be releasing a new tape. Which did happen.

He carries on a dialog with al Quada, who knows he will report, because they want to prove that they can warn and still carry out the promise.

They also told him that this time the attacks will not be by people with the name of Muhammad. The names will be David and other American names because they have acquired American identification.

He also said they have Nuclear dirty bombs or something along that line that may be used. He was not sure if they will be used but that they do have them in the West. They were last in Mexico where the guy escaped that was trying to steal a plane to get them into America.

I have no idea if this is true or not, but it seems that the public should be aware of the possibility.

That is why democracies in Islamic countries don’t work. As long as these countries remain Islamic, there simply can’t be any democracy. As long as they remain undemocratic, they will be a danger to themselves and to the world.So then I guess 2600 of your fellow countrymen have died for no good reason, right?

And that goes for a lot of you here. Your soldiers are being shot at and bombed everyday in the hopes that the people of the Middle East will one day have a better life; and here you are wanting to nuke and kill those very people in order to "teach them a lesson." It's pathetic and it's a disgrace.

It's pathetic and it's a disgrace.

I couldn't agree more.

I won't, old-reb.

Because Islam poses zero threat to ME.
Tell that to the families of those who worked in the world trade center.

Yeah it takes enough natural gas to heat a family house for a month to extract 1 barrel of oil from the tar sands.
Can you tell me where you got that figure from because it sounds inaccurate. Canada is already exporting over 1.5 millions barrels a day of crude oil.

Show me just what Jesus brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman

^ If someone said that, I think Christians would be a little PO'd

You have a very valet point. I can think of certain religious leaders becoming very upset if such a negative remark was made about Christianity. I also would like to point out that Christianity has been forced on individuals, let us not forget the Spanish Inquisition, or the fact that England fought to keep certain individuals from gaining the throne because of their religious beliefs.

Vilepagan,

I'm no expecting or asking that Muslims become little Americans. I am asking that they exhibit traits that are universally expected of people, ie, to not kill people because of their faith, to not call for the total destruction of another country because of the religion of its people, to not cut off people's heads, to not plant bombs in places of worship and crowded market places, to not target women, children and other non-combatants.

The Pope hit the nail on the head when he quoted Paleologues. Islam is a violent religion that understands onlyl violence. When people do not respond violently to Islamic threats those people are viewed as weak. Only when people respond with overwhelming force with Muslim stop their reign of terror.

It is long past time that the world kowtowed to Islam. If it is Jihad they want lets give it to them.

I wonder how many of the acts committed under the guise of being in the name of Islam is in fact tribal custom and law.

Can you tell me where you got that figure from because it sounds inaccurate. Canada is already exporting over 1.5 millions barrels a day of crude oil.

I read it in the Economist magazine.

I wonder how many of the acts committed under the guise of being in the name of Islam is in fact tribal custom and law.

Wonder if arab tribes kill Jewish tribes because of non-muslim custom and law?

Wonder if arab tribes kill Jewish tribes because of non-muslim custom and law?

The anti-muslim stance is getting old.

Muslim nations are incredibly weak. The people feel impotent - that is why they they have this huge chip on their shoulder & are easily "slighted"

The only threat they pose is that of terrorism - a cowardly and insidious path to take.

The west on the other hand could wipe out every muslim nation in less than 30 minutes.

Muslim nations are incredibly weak. The people feel impotent - that is why they they have this huge chip on their shoulder & are easily "slighted"

The only threat they pose is that of terrorism - a cowardly and insidious path to take.

The west on the other hand could wipe out every muslim nation in less than 30 minutes.

Iran will soon be able to wipe out many Western nations. And they ain't scared to do it. A nuclear holocaust will cause the return of the 12th Imam and is a worthy goal.

It's pathetic and it's a disgrace.
Where do we draw the line? When is enough, enough? How many 9/11's do we have to endure before we start taking these nut bags seriously? I'm all for lending a helping hand, but as far as I'm concerned, they started this shit, and their corrupt leaders have exacerbated the problem while their religion (on many, many levels) is a serious magnet for psychopathic lunatics. Now, given the reality of these church torching, pope burning, rent-a-riot crowds (Less we forget to mention the preponderance of death threats made on a daily basis) - I don't think my assessment of the situation is subject for debate.

Then what the hell are they doing DEMANDING an apology for quoting a 12th century Byzantine Emperor, who carried on the conversation in question some 600 plus years ago with an "educated" Persian????

They're the ones demanding shit, not us. We want to make their lives better, and they want to kill us. There's a HUGE difference between us philosophically and morally, and you can "liberalize" this conversation until the cows come home for all I care, but that doesn't change the fact that these people have a primitive streak rivaled only by rabid dogs. They're as inflexible and intolerant a people as I've ever encountered in my entire life.

Have you a mirror?

The anti-muslim stance is getting old.

The constant threats of being at war with the muslims whenever somebody dares to tread upon their delicate sensitivities is old as hell. Since 9/11 about all we've heard from them is a constant barrage of bloodthirsty threats. They've brought the anti-muslim stance against themselves.

Have you a mirror?
When have I ever burned effigies and torched Mosques in the name of Christ? Where have ANY Christians, for that matter, come out en masse only to call for the death of a cartoonist and filmmaker while waging jihad against the East only to advocate the indiscriminate killing of Muslim clerics and devotees, but only to the tune of 10,000,000 because 10,000,001 would make Christ "unhappy". Face it, these people (when taken as the sum of their parts) are fucking NUTS, and there's not a goddamned thing you can say to make me think otherwise. The proof is in the pudding.

And someone like you has the balls to say that people like me are intolerant. WTF is wrong with you?

The constant threats of being at war with the muslims whenever somebody dares to tread upon their delicate sensitivities is old as hell. Since 9/11 about all we've heard from them is a constant barrage of bloodthirsty threats. They've brought the anti-muslim stance against themselves.
EXACTLY, Es - well put.

Iran will soon be able to wipe out many Western nations.

Huh?!

......"wipe out many Western nations" with WHAT?!?

Where do we draw the line? When is enough, enough? How many 9/11's do we have to endure before we start taking these nut bags seriously? I'm all for lending a helping hand, but as far as I'm concerned, they started this shit, and their corrupt leaders have exacerbated the problem while their religion (on many, many levels) is a serious magnet for psychopathic lunatics. Now, given the reality of these church torching, pope burning, rent-a-riot crowds (Less we forget to mention the preponderance of death threats made on a daily basis) - I don't think my assessment of the situation is subject for debate.
==================================

Some people do not want to see the threat. Never, have I seen so many people willing to place the noose around their own necks.

I wonder how many of these same people criticised the government for not taking the threats seriously that lead up to the 9/11 incident.

Huh?!

......"wipe out many Western nations" with WHAT?!?

Yes, I wonder :rolleyes: Although I sincerly doubt they'll want to destroy other nations if it means their own destruction.

The west on the other hand could wipe out every muslim nation in less than 30 minutes.

The only threat they pose is that of terrorism - a cowardly and insidious path to take. '

When have I ever burned effigies and torched Mosques in the name of Christ? Where have ANY Christians, for that matter, come out en masse only to call for the death of a cartoonist and filmmaker while waging jihad against the East only to advocate the indiscriminate killing of Muslim clerics and devotees, but only to the tune of 10,000,000 because 10,000,001 would make Christ "unhappy". Face it, these people (when taken as the sum of their parts) are fucking NUTS, and there's not a goddamned thing you can say to make me think otherwise. The proof is in the pudding. When have 99.9999% of muslims ever done such? And some of them did more then burn effigies...

++++++++
Nigerian Christians Burn Corpses

by Craig Timberg
The Washington Post

Christian mobs stopped their killing and looting in this Nigerian city Thursday and turned to disposing of the evidence in the crudest of ways. Men burned the remains of their Muslim victims in smoldering bonfires on downtown streets, leaving behind charred legs, skulls and shoulders that minibus taxi drivers swerved to avoid.

As thousands of Muslims struggled to find a way to reach the northern part of the country or huddled for protection at police stations, Christian residents in this southeastern city expressed little remorse for their role in five days of religious violence sparked by anger over the publication of cartoons of the prophet Muhammad.

At Onitsha's ruined central mosque, one of two reportedly destroyed Tuesday, Ifeanyi Eze, 34, picked up a piece of charred wood and scrawled on a low wall: "Mohammad is a man but Jesus is from above." On the walls of the abandoned mosque, others had written: "No Mohammad, Jesus Christ is Lord."

Nigerian authorities have not announced an official death toll from the violence in Onitsha, but witness accounts indicated that at least 42 people had been killed. There were 33 bodies visible near the Niger River bridge on Wednesday, and a brief tour of city streets Thursday turned up eight burned or burning bodies. Another body, sprawled near cans of tomatoes that spilled from a bag, was on the bridge.

http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=10057
++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

I'm not trying to disuede you from thinking there are crazy religious nut bags. I'm trying to convince you that they exist in every religion. You're just too stuck on the hip new racist trend to acknowledge such....

Where do we draw the line? When is enough, enough? How many 9/11's do we have to endure before we start taking these nut bags seriously? I'm all for lending a helping hand, but as far as I'm concerned, they started this shit, and their corrupt leaders have exacerbated the problem while their religion (on many, many levels) is a serious magnet for psychopathic lunatics. Now, given the reality of these church torching, pope burning, rent-a-riot crowds (Less we forget to mention the preponderance of death threats made on a daily basis) - I don't think my assessment of the situation is subject for debate.Alright then, please explain to me what we're doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we should be punishing these people, why are Americans dying in order to help them?

Alright then, please explain to me what we're doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we should be punishing these people, why are Americans dying in order to help them?

Two purposes.

First off, we're trying to give the Muslims an alternative to the usual corrupt, decaying, intolerant, theocratic government that infests the middle east.

The reason we're trying to give muslims that chance is that the middle east, as it's ran today is THE breeding ground for terrorism.

To be honest, I'm becoming skeptical of the chances of Iraq or Afghanistan becoming more democratic. I'd like to see more research into a missile defense system, and start drilling for our own oil. As it seems that the biggest screwball government seem to be the ones sitting on top of the largest reservoirs of oil, dammit.

Two purposes.

First off, we're trying to give the Muslims an alternative to the usual corrupt, decaying, intolerant, theocratic government that infests the middle east.

The reason we're trying to give muslims that chance is that the middle east, as it's ran today is THE breeding ground for terrorism.Precisely. Now maybe someone can explain how bloodthirsty vengeance against the Muslim world fits into that goal.

How nice of us to "give them a chance for a better life"

It's incredible that people actually believe that kind of crap.

How nice of us to "give them a chance for a better life"

It's incredible that people actually believe that kind of crap.

The plan was that we would get them to be democratic and tolerant of the different groups. The Shittes, Sunnis, Kurds and other groups would all live in peace and we would help them build Iraq into a modern Free Western style government.

That just didn't work because even in War victory over Iraqis, we had no control in getting them to be civilized. The intolerant Mullahs and Imams control the lives of the Muslim and not some democratic government.

History repeats itself. The British put in a democratic government in Iraq back in the 20's but it failed and was replaced by a dictatorship.

I say that history proves that only brutal dictatorships can cause Muslims, whose religion calls them to constant Jihad until their own version of Islam rules the world, to live in peace.

Yugoslavia had many religious and ethnic groups and lived in peace under dictatorships but when they were given freedom they took the freedom to attempt to conquer the other ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing is now the rule in Yugoslavia.

Demorcarcy can only work in civilized societies. So for that reason I have decided that our invasion in Iraq is doomed to failure unless we install another dictatorship and leave. Forget democracy for Muslims, it is against their religion and their religion has too much control over their lives.

We have a great plan in Israel/Palestine too, we are going to make the Palestines accept the Jews as human with equal rights to life, ha ha.

Yugoslavia had many religious and ethnic groups and lived in peace under dictatorships but when they were given freedom they took the freedom to attempt to conquer the other ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing is now the rule in Yugoslavia.

And you blame this on the muslims? Or am I misreading you?

The plan was that we would get them to be democratic and tolerant of the different groups. The Shittes, Sunnis, Kurds and other groups would all live in peace and we would help them build Iraq into a modern Free Western style government.

That just didn't work because even in War victory over Iraqis, we had no control in getting them to be civilized. The intolerant Mullahs and Imams control the lives of the Muslim and not some democratic government.

History repeats itself. The British put in a democratic government in Iraq back in the 20's but it failed and was replaced by a dictatorship.

I say that history proves that only brutal dictatorships can cause Muslims, whose religion calls them to constant Jihad until their own version of Islam rules the world, to live in peace.

Yugoslavia had many religious and ethnic groups and lived in peace under dictatorships but when they were given freedom they took the freedom to attempt to conquer the other ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing is now the rule in Yugoslavia.

Demorcarcy can only work in civilized societies. So for that reason I have decided that our invasion in Iraq is doomed to failure unless we install another dictatorship and leave. Forget democracy for Muslims, it is against their religion and their religion has too much control over their lives.

We have a great plan in Israel/Palestine too, we are going to make the Palestines accept the Jews as human with equal rights to life, ha ha.

The notion that we have the right to install democracy anywhere is totally nuts. It's none of our friggin business. If they want democracy the people will have to create it, it can't be imposed from the outside.

And you blame this on the muslims? Or am I misreading you?

Muslims, Catholics, Orthodox, Nato, Clintonites, all working together to use ethnic cleansing to steal great chunks of realestate. Under the Communist, troublemakers were slaughtered wholesale no matter what group they came from. The whole country was more important than the parts.

The notion that we have the right to install democracy anywhere is totally nuts. It's none of our friggin business. If they want democracy the people will have to create it, it can't be imposed from the outside.

It is dictatorships like Nazis, Soviet Union and South Korea that represent a threat to our peace and prosperty, so we try to nip them in the bud before we have a WW2 style war just to survive with our own freedom.

Germany and Japan proves that once dictatorships can become healthy democratic governments. Iraq proves that you can't install a democracy in Muslim lands because for them it is a great sin to have a government made of mans laws instead of Gods laws.

That previews what will happen when the muslims become the majority in Western nations.

[...] If they want democracy the people will have to create it, it can't be imposed from the outside.

Heh and the funny thing is your president said just that in the UN yesterday (or a few days ago, I forgot), even though he and his cronies has waged two wars to try and force people into democracy.

Iraq proves that you can't install a democracy in Muslim lands because for them it is a great sin to have a government made of mans laws instead of Gods laws.
.
What about turkey? That is a (somewhat) healthy secular, democratic state and has been for many years

What about turkey? That is a (somewhat) healthy secular, democratic state and has been for many years

Turkey was the core of the Ottoman Empire and when it was defeated the military realized that Islam was keeping them back from progress so they imposted strict military law that banned most Islamic laws. This worked very well until they wanted into the EU. The EU demanded they be democratric so they allowed elections and in a Muslim population people vote for whomever their imams tell them to vote for so now we are seeing a change in Turkey as it goes back to it's Islamic core.

Not true - Turkey has had general elections since they became a secular republic in the '20es. They HAVEN'T voted out secularism. I don't think Turkey is to be considered a threat just because the people who lives there are 99% muslim. Their culture is a mixture of european and islamic values. Their secular tradition is strong, as well as their constitution.

Not true - Turkey has had general elections since they became a secular republic in the '20es. They HAVEN'T voted out secularism. I don't think Turkey is to be considered a threat just because the people who lives there are 99% muslim. Their culture is a mixture of european and islamic values. Their secular tradition is strong, as well as their constitution.

They have general elections but they don't enjoy the same freedoms as Western countries.

After ww1 Turkey was the sickman of Europe and Ataturk set out to make a secular state with a muslim population, a contridiction of terms. but he did achieve it.

Of the muslim countries, Turkey seems the best. Maybe we could set up a similiar situation in Iraq.

Ataturk's Revolutions
Political Revolutions
The Sultanete was abolished in 1922, November 1st.
The Republic was declared in 1923, October 29th.
The Caliphship was abolished in 1924, March 3rd.

Approximately 99 percent of the population is officially Muslim, the majority of whom are Sunni.

The Government oversees Muslim religious facilities and education through its Directorate of Religious Affairs (Diyanet), which reports directly to the Prime Ministry. The Diyanet has responsibility for regulating the operation of the country's 75,000 registered mosques and employing local and provincial imams, who are civil servants. Some groups, particularly Alevis, claim that the Diyanet reflects mainstream Sunni Islamic beliefs to the exclusion of other beliefs; however, the Government asserts that the Diyanet treats equally all who request services.
A separate government agency, the General Directorate for Foundations (Vakiflar Genel Mudurlugu), regulates some activities of non‑Muslim religious groups and their affiliated churches, monasteries, synagogues, and related religious property. There are 161 "minority foundations" recognized by the Vakiflar, including Greek Orthodox foundations with approximately 70 sites, Armenian Orthodox foundations with approximately 50 sites, and Jewish foundations with 20 sites, as well as Syrian Christian, Chaldean, Bulgarian Orthodox, Georgian, and Maronite foundations. The Vakiflar also regulates Muslim charitable religious foundations, including schools, hospitals, and orphanages.
Some religious groups, particularly the Greek and Armenian Orthodox communities, have lost property to the Government in the past or continue to fight against such losses. Many such properties were lost because current laws allow the Vakiflar to assume direct administration of properties that fall into disuse when the size of the local non-Muslim community dwindles. Other properties that were held in the name of individual community members were expropriated after the community members emigrated or died without heirs.
In 2002, the Government adopted a reform measure allowing, in principle, non-Muslim foundations to acquire property for the first time since 1936. However, the measures are restricted to the 161 minority foundations recognized by the Vakiflar and to cases in which the foundations can demonstrate a renewed community need.

It is dictatorships like Nazis, Soviet Union and South Korea that represent a threat to our peace and prosperty, so we try to nip them in the bud before we have a WW2 style war just to survive with our own freedom.

Germany and Japan proves that once dictatorships can become healthy democratic governments. Iraq proves that you can't install a democracy in Muslim lands because for them it is a great sin to have a government made of mans laws instead of Gods laws.

That previews what will happen when the muslims become the majority in Western nations.

Baloney. There isn't going to be a WW2 style war with any muslim nation. Nazi germany would have been allowed to be Nazi all it wanted so long as it didn't start invading it's neighbours.

We have no business WHATSOEVER attempting to install democracy in other countries by force. Who died and made us God?

Plus, the whole notion is completely hypocrytical. I don't see us invading any African nations that are completely in Chaos. I don't see us invading N.Korea. The whole notion holds absolutely no water at all.

Of the muslim countries, Turkey seems the best. Maybe we could set up a similiar situation in Iraq.

Sounds good, I'm not sure its achivable though. I dont think democracy and Islam isn't a contradiction in itself, it depends on how rigidly you practice your faith. If you are like the psychos in Teheran or the religious insurgents, then not a chance.

In anycase, we have a mess in Iraq and our present policy just isn't working. It is time to rethink our present policy.

I think we can all agree on that!

Heh and the funny thing is your president said just that in the UN yesterday (or a few days ago, I forgot), even though he and his cronies has waged two wars to try and force people into democracy.
It was yesterday, and just out of curiosity, how does one go about confusing yesterday with a few days ago? I'm sorry, Elp, but that just seems rather odd to me.

I think we can all agree on that!

Maybe we could get some help from Turkey or maybe some horse trading. Turkey allows a Kurdistan and we give Turkey Iraq with all their oil. What is it, the second largest supplier of oil?

Hmm, who could we give Iraq to?

"We Have No Relationship to our Diverse Muslim Society"
German Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble, 64, discusses the pope's criticism of Islam, the prospect of imams preaching in German, and the risk of terrorism in Germany now that the military is so busy overseas. Germany's first-ever "Islamic conference" between Muslims and the government takes place next Wednesday in Berlin.
Spiegel is a newspaper.
SPIEGEL: You plan to hold a conference on Islam with representatives of Muslim organizations in Germany next week. They too are outraged. Will the latest controversy play a role at this conference?
Schäuble: The entire issue underscores, at the very least, how necessary such a conference is.
SPIEGEL: There will likely be some attendees who would like to see Sharia law introduced in Germany.
Schäuble: The list of attendees is not entirely uncontroversial. We were always faced with questions like: What about a religious community like Milli Görüs, which is represented by the Islamic Council? And what about the Central Council of Muslims? But we don't wish to exclude people from the start. Instead, we have invited anyone who is prepared to stick to the rules. All attendees must accept the fact that the conference on Islam will take place within the framework of our constitution, and not Sharia law.
SPIEGEL: Germany's domestic intelligence agency has the Milli Görüs Islamic community under observation. During a raid on a Milli Görüs mosque in Bavaria in 2004, investigators seized anti-Semitic classics such as Henry Ford's "The International Jew." Is this the kind of partner with which the German interior minister wants to seek dialogue?

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,438027,00.html

It was yesterday, and just out of curiosity, how does one go about confusing yesterday with a few days ago? I'm sorry, Elp, but that just seems rather odd to me.

It was in the news, didn't think much about it before I read Drews post, and I couldn't remember excatly when I heard it. Don't tell me that never happens to you?

It was in the news, didn't think much about it before I read Drews post, and I couldn't remember excatly when I heard it. Don't tell me that never happens to you?
It does. :) Just not too often, and when the day in question was YESTERDAY, almost never. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/Ronbo/Ronbo6/Toon-PopeIslam.jpg

Or better yet...

"Some 13th century emperor said that Muslims have a penchant for violence, and violence is wrong."

"Take that back or I'll KILL you, Infidel!!!!!!"

What??? No response? That's it America! All Muslims should leave there immediately, and watch as Hiroshima is relived on their soil in 2006.

Muwhahhahahha





Pfft - Fucking psychos....

^ Funny cartoon

Haha, sorry. I just had my weekend (Mon / Tues) so I didn't get the chance to take the other side, and it looks like I'm the only one too.

The pope is really poking thorns in the Islamic world. He's smart enough to know what kind of impact that statement would make and that it would rightly piss off the muslim world. If he is really working towards peace he shouldn't claim that a statement which reams the muslims' prophet is true.

The pope is really poking thorns in the Islamic world. He's smart enough to know what kind of impact that statement would make and that it would rightly piss off the muslim world. If he is really working towards peace he shouldn't claim that a statement which reams the muslims' prophet is true.

Could it be that the Pope misjudged the ability of some to take his remarks out of context and use them to inflame the ignorant masses? Out of everything he said that day, only that one statement made a hit? Since when does the everyday Muslim give a thought to just what the Pontiff says unless it's poured into their heads by the prayer leader?

Could it be that the Pope misjudged the ability of some to take his remarks out of context and use them to inflame the ignorant masses?

It wasn't taking the words out of context. He endorsed this statement as the truth: Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman

Supporters of the Pope (or just anti-muslim / anti-Islamic people, of which there are apparently a few on this forum) would like to believe that the statement was taken out of context. Read it again if it helps; the statement he made was no less insulting to muslims out of context than in context.

The pope is really poking thorns in the Islamic world. He's smart enough to know what kind of impact that statement would make and that it would rightly piss off the muslim world. If he is really working towards peace he shouldn't claim that a statement which reams the muslims' prophet is true.To take your side for a moment:

The Pope was making the argument that conversion by the sword is morally wrong. Is converting by the sword something Christians do a lot of these days? Just who do you think the Pope was making his argument against? Fellow Christians? I don't think so. /taking your side

The Pope is right, of course, to say that conversion by the sword is morally wrong. Moreover, he has every right to say so in public. But I do agree that the Pope must have known whose ox he was goring.

Then again, maybe the Pope is merely throwing down the gauntlet.

An assassination of this man would surely trigger a wordwide religious war, besides ensuring his elevation to sainthood, and perhaps show to the world the true dominant religion--Catholicism.

The Pope is an extremely intelligent man. I think he said exactly what needed to be said and the reaction of Muslims around the world shows that he was right in saying it.

Islam is the only major religion today that reacts to words with not only threats of death but with actual killings.

It is time for The West to realize that this is not simplya matter of different interpretations of religion but a fight for our very existence as a free society. The aim of Islam is to convert the entire world, by the sword if necessary.

^ Funny cartoon

Haha, sorry. I just had my weekend (Mon / Tues) so I didn't get the chance to take the other side, and it looks like I'm the only one too.

The pope is really poking thorns in the Islamic world. He's smart enough to know what kind of impact that statement would make and that it would rightly piss off the muslim world. If he is really working towards peace he shouldn't claim that a statement which reams the muslims' prophet is true.

Could it be that Muslims don't want the pope to visit the few remaining Christians in Turkey and it wouldn't matter what the pope said, they could find fault in something to derail his Turkey visit.

The Pope is an extremely intelligent man. I think he said exactly what needed to be said and the reaction of Muslims around the world shows that he was right in saying it.

Islam is the only major religion today that reacts to words with not only threats of death but with actual killings.

It is time for The West to realize that this is not simplya matter of different interpretations of religion but a fight for our very existence as a free society. The aim of Islam is to convert the entire world, by the sword if necessary.
Very well put, and I agree with you 100%.

Paper covers rock. Rock breaks scissors. Bullet launchers beat swords.

The Pope is an extremely intelligent man. I think he said exactly what needed to be said and the reaction of Muslims around the world shows that he was right in saying it.

Islam is the only major religion today that reacts to words with not only threats of death but with actual killings.

It is time for The West to realize that this is not simplya matter of different interpretations of religion but a fight for our very existence as a free society. The aim of Islam is to convert the entire world, by the sword if necessary.
Well said, Frogger.

The notion that we have the right to install democracy anywhere is totally nuts. It's none of our friggin business. If they want democracy the people will have to create it, it can't be imposed from the outside.
Bullseye Drew!

"It is time for The West to realize that this is not simplya matter of different interpretations of religion but a fight for our very existence as a free society. The aim of Islam is to convert the entire world, by the sword if necessary."

Really, do you think they are capable of that? A lot of posturing maybe, but little ability in reality.

Originally Posted by old-reb .... "Iran will soon be able to wipe out many Western nations."

Originally Posted by Freethinker
Huh?!......"wipe out many Western nations" with WHAT?!?

Yes, I wonder :rolleyes: Although I sincerly doubt they'll want to destroy other nations if it means their own destruction.

It doesn't even come into question whether they **would want to** or not. This is specifically about capability.

I was just trying to pin down people like old-reb as to WHAT he thinks Iran would USE to "wipe out many Western nations".

Then again, maybe the Pope is merely throwing down the gauntlet.

An assassination of this man would surely trigger a wordwide religious war, besides ensuring his elevation to sainthood, and perhaps show to the world the true dominant religion--Catholicism.
================================================== ==

I did hear one source say that the Pope may have been making a sacrifice of himself to show the world the threat it faces from Islam, that he knew what their reaction would be.

Originally Posted by WindWip
The pope is really poking thorns in the Islamic world. He's smart enough to know what kind of impact that statement would make and that it would rightly piss off the muslim world. If he is really working towards peace he shouldn't claim that a statement which reams the muslims' prophet is true

so we shouldnt be albe to say anything that isnt a glowing endoresment of islam for fear of the islamic world becoming enraged? Dont you realize these peoples entire lives revolve around becoming enraged over the tiniest slight? I fthey were not so religious I would think they were liberals!

I was just trying to pin down people like old-reb as to WHAT he thinks Iran would USE to "wipe out many Western nations".
This is the dumbest fucking thing you've ever said. Give him time (I know you're a big fan of it), and he'll enrich weapons grade uranium. Hell, he's already enriching uranium as we speak (documented and verifiable), and you call yourself someone who understands "the way things are"???? Wake up, you raging pinko; he doesn't give a shit about domestic power. That whole ruse, which you "intellectual" assholes bought into from day one, was a total joke. If he wanted nuclear power, then I'd imagine he'd purchase a reactor (like most other "nuclear" countries). I'm truly sorry for the tone, FT - but when you say shit like that, you REALLY piss me off.

Then again, maybe the Pope is merely throwing down the gauntlet.

An assassination of this man would surely trigger a wordwide religious war, besides ensuring his elevation to sainthood, and perhaps show to the world the true dominant religion--Catholicism.

I don't know that elevation to sainthood would be a certainty. In the aftermath of such a war the beliefs of the surviving RC's may be quite different. They may resent having been dragged into a conflict, however just it may have been at the onset, and turn against the Pontiff that started it all.

so we shouldnt be albe to say anything that isnt a glowing endoresment of islam for fear of the islamic world becoming enraged? Dont you realize these peoples entire lives revolve around becoming enraged over the tiniest slight? I fthey were not so religious I would think they were liberals!

We shouldn't deliberately piss people off for no other reason than to piss them off. Especially people who have been known to do shit like suicide bombings when they're pissed off.

It's the same reason why other nations don't usually want to piss us off - economic sanctions and our military, and our willingness to use them.

btw, Iran wants nuclear weapons to have nuclear weapons. He doesn't want them to use them, otherwise he would be completely fucked. Thats like someone taking a hostage, then killing the hostage - it completely negates the point of having the hostage in the first place and it really pisses everyone off.

Iran could blow up one city with a nuke, we could wipe out their entire country. Iran and the US would not have mutually assured destruction holding them back. Its more like Iran would dent us and we would leave them a smoking ruin, same goes for N Korea

This is the dumbest fucking thing you've ever said. Give him time (I know you're a big fan of it), and he'll enrich weapons grade uranium.

Not MUCH time though, according to old-reb.

He claimed that SOON -- Iran will be able to destroy many Western nations.

Hell, he's already enriching uranium as we speak (documented and verifiable), ......

Ok.

At the minute he posseses the requisite quanity of *enriched uranium*, does he then instantly possess a nuclear missile?!?....No.

A nuclear weapon..........No.

Wake up, you raging pinko; he doesn't give a shit about domestic power. That whole ruse, which you "intellectual" assholes bought into from day one, was a total joke. If he wanted nuclear power, then I'd imagine he'd purchase a reactor

Ok. I never said he DID give a shit about domestic power.

I never said he DIDN'T want to have nuclear weapons. Maybe he DOES.

In fact.....let's say that the leader of Iran HAS a nuclear missile. Right now. This very minute.

And let's ALSO say --even though it is sheer insanity to even pose the hypothetical-- that for some unfathomable reason he WANTS to use it against some **Western nation**, and he thinks it would be a GOOD idea to use it against some **Western nation**.

My question to old-reb (and now to YOU also, since you seem to have climbed aboard the Idiot Train with him) was---

a) how will he destroy "many" Western nations with it, and

b) What and where is the delivery system he will use to drop it on "many" Western nations??


I'm truly sorry for the tone, FT - but when you say shit like that, you REALLY piss me off.

No problem with the tone. Just shows you're sincere in what you're saying. You're WRONG, but still.............sincere. :thumbs:

http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/Byz_Emperor_FoxNews_332.gif

In the view of some historians, the Pope's recent apology to enraged Muslims over use of a quote written by Manuel II Palaeologus in 1391 bears a striking similarity with a similar apology delivered more than 600 years ago by Manuel II Palaeologus himself to offended Muslim armies after they ransacked his Christian country, converted its citizens to Islam, and beheaded or enslaved those who resisted the forced conversions. In a public speech made shortly after the quote first appeared in Muslim press, Manuel II apologized to the Islamic community that besieged his controversial "Byzantine entity," the term used to describe the Greek-speaking Roman Empire of the Middle Ages, centered at its capital in Constantinople (now Istanbul).



"I hope," said Manuel II, who was also known as a writer, poet and theologian, "that my apology will appease hearts and clarify the true meaning of my address, which was an invitation to a rational dialogue, with great mutual respect."

"In my seventh dialogue with an imaginary Islamic scholar," the learned Byzantine ruler continued as he evaded occasional critical arrows flying from the surrounding hordes, "I referred to the Koran's teachings about spreading the faith by the sword. And this, I said, could not come from God because violence is the opposite of reason, and God himself cannot act contrary to reason. But your passionate criticism has proven to me that there is, indeed, nothing evil or inhuman in spreading the faith by violent means, and that beheadings of non-believers and terrorizing communities in the name of religion are all signs of perfectly rational behavior and wonderful mental health."

Spokesperson for "United Mosques For Peace & Uniformity":
I would like to find that "Islamic scholar" with whom he was debating and rape his entire family while having his body eaten by dogs in the same room.

http://www.thepeoplescube.com/red/viewtopic.php?t=836

In the view of some historians, the Pope's recent apology to enraged Muslims over use of a quote written by Manuel II Palaeologus in 1391 bears a striking similarity with a similar apology delivered more than 600 years ago by Manuel II Palaeologus himself to offended Muslim armies...

Fascinating.

But my questions to you, old-reb, were---

How will Iran destroy "many" Western nations?

What will they use??

How will they amass enough weaponry to *destroy* entire nations??

Well, isn't that special? Yet more historical domumentation of the Religion of Peace.

Ah well,to be honest im beginning to come round to the belief that we wanna stop appeasing Muslims,the Pope thing being the last in a long list of incidents,here in Ireland we get a lot of UK tv,and everyday over there,Muslims are on bitching about this protesting about that,their moving into this neck of the woods now and starting the same,if they dont like our beliefs and outlook in life,they should just FUCK OFF.