I heard a good story the other day.. and it is entirely true so says my brother and many of his friends:

A woman who enjoyed running and physical sports in her youth got in a car accident in her 30's.. and was injured in such a way that her hip was seared and actually connected to her spine.. causing INTENSE pain to even CLOTHE herself. Walking to the bathroom was torture.

Coming up there was a marathon race at disney.. and while she strongly desired to be apart of the race, and always had... her condition made it EXTREMELY painful to run at all.

As she lay in bed day after day after day.. call it craziness, or call it divine intervention.. but she was called "by God"(so she says) to "run to her health".. she felt she was called to run in the race, which was about 6 months away.

So she went to her doctor without knowing why, led only by an outside hope and her faith in God. The Doctor of course said she was in NO condition to run the race, but he was a christian, and after she told the story to him.. he agreed to run WITH her to help her train.. and if any time it hurt too bad or anytime she wanted to stop that was fine, and he would be there for her.

So she started training for the 26 mile race.. starting at the bare minimum and building up her milage. Waking up EARLIER and EARLIER every day and running with the doc.. and EVERY DAY was the "worst day of her life".. her hip gave her so much discomfort that it was near paralyzing.. but her "crazy" belief that God wanted her to do this made her continue on...

The Race was two weeks away, and she was nowhere NEAR where she needed to be, she had hardly ran over 10 miles in a single outing.. and if anyone is familiar with training for a marathon.. that is bad LOL. Not to mention.. her hip got increasingly worse and for the 2 weeks BEFORE the marathon.. she didnt run AT ALL, which is horrible if training for a marathon.

So the marathon came around.. and the thought of not going crossed her mind, so she went to the doc to talk to him about it, and he said there would be no pressure, they'd fly down to do the marathon.. if she couldnt do it, she couldn't do it.. they'd fly right back, no problem.

So they made the trip.. flew down to florida for the Disney Marathon. She attempted to get stretched out and ready.. even though she could barely walk to the finish line because of the pain she was in. There were thousands of people there ready to start. The doc reassured her that she didn't HAVE to try it.. they could leave right now..

But a funny thing happened.. the gun went off.. and everyone started running past her.. she didnt move.. and the doc figured she couldnt do it, it was too painful. He approached her to escort her off but she suddenly felt NO PAIN in her hip AT ALL.. she shook out her hip, started to light jog.. and then started running the marathon. She ended up finishing the race, and never had any problems with her leg after that. God, she believed, had cured her, and had told her to trust in him, and if she followed God without doubt, he would heal her. The race was her calling.. she followed, and was healed. an AMAZING story.. i know you hear faith healers say BS like this.. but coming from my own brother and his friends who ALL KNOW the lady.. it was pretty incredible. Whether its God or its an energy source... Miracles do happen these days... I know some people don't believe in God on here.. but i guess this is just a story where someone called out to God and was cured... take it for what it is...

Cue the Twilight Zone theme

Well good for her, I hope it lasts. The human body is capable of things we haven't yet dreamed of.

The marathon training didn't sound too realistic though. My friend marathons... it is considered an extreme sport and very, very hard on the body. One would never be out there running every day and the closer to the marathon it gets the more rest one needs.

But I am glad she is now well.

I think the miracle may be that her doctor was willing to go down there with her.

How do you know she wasn't lying? I know you said that she's a friend of your brothers, but is that really "proof"? Medically speaking, the story doesn't sound very probable.

This reminds me of the South Park episode titled "All About Mormons". Stan meets a new kid at school named Gary, who's incredibly polite and well mannered, but when the two start discussing Gary's religion (Mormonism), Stan feels compelled to bring up how flawed the story of Joseph Smith sounds. He then points out flaws in the religion's founding, which especially concern him (for example, that Joseph Smith offered no proof to the general public of finding the Golden Plates (which he translated the book of Mormon from, and no one was allowed to see), and he claimed to have used a "slightly different" plate after the first translation was "lost" while in the possession of Martin Harris - the first publisher of the book of Mormon). Stan winds up yelling at the Mormons for their ridiculous belief in a religion without proof while Gary's family smiles patiently and explains that it's a matter of faith. Stan then argues that it should be a matter of empirical evidence. He said it's completely stupid to assert that an ancient book written on gold plates tells of Jesus Christ's second coming here in America. While foaming at the mouth, he hollered that if you're going to say the first man and woman lived in Missouri, and that all Native Americans are descended from "white people" who came from Jerusalem only to be killed by another Israelite tribe who was consequently cursed with "red" skin as a result, then you better have something to back it up.

It was a great episode.

I think the miracle may be that her doctor was willing to go down there with her.
Maybe he just wanted to make sure she didn't spend too much time on her legs.

Maybe (the doctor) just wanted to make sure she didn't spend too much time on her legs.

Yeah....i was thinking along the same lines. :thumbs:

You KNOW the 'good doctor' was bound to have been tappin' that........

Maybe the repeated beef injections cured her........

Its entirely possible it did happen to. Perhaps she just needed to "work out" whatever was causing her pain. Again if their is a God I hope it would be above merely rewarding blind loyalty at the risk of personal injury.

Its entirely possible it did happen to. Perhaps she just needed to "work out" whatever was causing her pain. Again if their is a God I hope it would be above merely rewarding blind loyalty at the risk of personal injury.

EXACTLY... I am glad she got better but personal divine intervention has left me cold since I was a kid. Like some divine loving deity would personally intervene for some but not others is a frightening prospect. Especially when it involves going against logic to prove faith.

However, I have no problem with miraculous healing in general. Even the whole Christian concept of "the laying on of hands" I think has merit in that there is directed energy flow transfer.

EXACTLY... I am glad she got better but personal divine intervention has left me cold since I was a kid. Like some divine loving deity would personally intervene for some but not others is a frightening prospect.

Excellent point.

Even more frightening to me is that the particular divine loving god being talked about is the SAME one that in the past ordered helpless infants to be slaughtered.

However, I have no problem with miraculous healing in general.

I (and every other rational, critically thinking person) have a huge problem with it, since it involves the "supernatural" which has no basis in reality.

Even the whole Christian concept of "the laying on of hands" I think has merit in that there is directed energy flow transfer.

It "works" only because of a widely studied scientific phenomenon; psychosomatic response.

Excellent point.

Even more frightening to me is that the particular divine loving god being talked about is the SAME one that in the past ordered helpless infants to be slaughtered.
Just so we are clear here, I am not saying there is no God, merely that I do not believe he interfers in a direct way with our lives.



I (and every other rational, critically thinking person) have a huge problem with it, since it involves the "supernatural" which has no basis in reality..
Why? There are uncountable numbers of people who heal from diseases or conditions which should have killed them. It baffles doctors everyday. Some healings are even spontaneous. It does trancend the law of nature and they are documented. To pretend they don’t exist merely because you are uncomfortable with phenomenon which currently can not be explained is not rational. A miracle is merely an unusal event.


It "works" only because of a widely studied scientific phenomenon; psychosomatic response.
By psychosomatic I take it you mean a symptom or a disease caused by the mind or emotions. So with that definition in mind I would say that would be precisely why it may have worked. Does that lessen the healing somehow? In time many, many diseases may prove to be mind or emotionally generated.

We do not understand the working of the universe. To me all things are energy and all are connected. We are all connected. We are not merely robots capable of thought alone.

Do you believe we are merely thought alone? Is there a God?

car accident ... injured ... INTENSE pain ... torture. ... EXTREMELY painful ... NO condition to run the race ... "worst day of her life" ... so much discomfort that it was near paralyzing.. ... her hip got increasingly worse and for the 2 weeks BEFORE the marathon.. For me a miracle or example of god's love would not involve these things. Indeed the phrase 'divine miracle' never seems far from suffering, disaster, death and/or illness.

By psychosomatic I take it you mean a symptom or a disease caused by the mind or emotions. ?
That's precisely what he meant. Is there another definition for psychosomatic?
So with that definition in mind I would say that would be precisely why it may have worked.
What we're talking about here is a specific medical condition, not some trick of the mind. If what you're saying was indeed the case, then after he ordered the initial x-rays and CT scans, he should've referenced a decent shrink - not boned her in Florida. Of course, if I were a doctor on the other hand...
Does that lessen the healing somehow?
Uh...yeah. It basically indicates that there was no healing to be had. At least, not physically.
In time many, many diseases may prove to be mind or emotionally generated.
You're such a female, Sal...;)

That's precisely what he meant. Is there another definition for psychosomatic?
Well, glad that you are in a metaphysical state and could truly connect with his meaning. :p

What we're talking about here is a specific medical condition, not some trick of the mind. If what you're saying was indeed the case, then after he ordered the initial x-rays and CT scans, he should've referenced a decent shrink - not boned her in Florida. Of course, if I were a doctor on the other hand...
Yeah I know, you would have boned her anyway, well not if she were coyote ugly of course, we all know you are selective. Now back to the topic...
I did not label her condition as anything. I merely commented upon FT's possible suggestion. And for the record psychosomatic does not mean unreal or trick of the mind.

Uh...yeah. It basically indicates that there was no healing to be had. At least, not physically.
Not true… go back to your psych 101 course. It is not that simple nor that easy. Recurring asthma attacks caused by stress would be labeled as psychosomatic...they are no less real and no less deadly.

It is not that simple nor that easy. Recurring asthma attacks caused by stress would be labeled as psychosomatic...they are no less real and no less deadly.
Good point, but we're not talking about asthma attacks here; we're talking about a physical malady so pronounced - the woman had trouble walking. If this issue were psychosomatic, then the quack treating her should be sued for malpractice. JMO.

You know, you're pretty smart for a woman. :)

For me a miracle or example of god's love would not involve these things. Indeed the phrase 'divine miracle' never seems far from suffering, disaster, death and/or illness.
I agree. If only god-belief was still like in the days of the ancient Greeks (meaning, people believe that god(s) is powerful, but does what he pleases, not necessarily loving, and therefore deserve people's love/devotion as much as fear/hatred) then we don't have this problem. :rolleyes:

Good point, but we're not talking about asthma attacks here; we're talking about a physical malady so pronounced - the woman had trouble walking. If this issue were psychosomatic, then the quack treating her should be sued for malpractice. JMO.:)
You know, the older I get the more it seems like many people are just simply "whacked out" by things that have happened to them in their life. They have no sense of balance, and that really does affect them physically, mentally and emtionally. And it displays itself one way or another.
Also symptoms that doctors once believed had a psychosomatic root now are known to have a physiological basis... medical science is young...and that is reality. Hell, they used to think all ulcers were stress induced...now we know over half are viral. Heart attacks... yup, some are virally induced. The greater our knowledge becomes the more easily things are explained.

The other possible explanation for this woman is that she really did have some huge physical problem. She could hardly move from pain which possibly caused her to lay around and rest. That in turn could have built up her immune system which in turn could have allowed her body to heal. Bottom line is, we just don't know at this point.

You know, you're pretty smart for a woman. :) Thanks...it's genetic. (you're lucky I love ya):cool:

Originally Posted by Freethinker
I (and every other rational, critically thinking person) have a huge problem with (miracles), since it involves the "supernatural" which has no basis in reality.

Why? There are uncountable numbers of people who heal from diseases or conditions which should have killed them. It baffles doctors everyday.

Ok. It baffles doctors. That STILL does not in any way indicate the existence of "supernaturalism".

Some healings are even spontaneous. It does trancend the law of nature and they are documented.

a) It does not "trancend" the laws of nature. It is merely a manifestation of a physical law or principle of physics that we do not understand.........yet.

b) It STILL does not in any way indicate the existence of "supernaturalism".

To pretend they don’t exist merely because you are uncomfortable with phenomenon which currently can not be explained is not rational.

I am not "uncomfortable" with phenomenon which currently can not be explained, but I am "uncomfortable" with phenomenon that can not be explained or understood being claimed to be caused by supernatural influence or effect.


A miracle is merely an unusal event.

Yes, a so-called "miracle" is simply an unusual event.

I agree.

But there has never in the histroy of humankind on this planet been one shred of proof that said "miracles" were supernatural in origin, and FURTHERMORE, there has never, not ONCE, in the history of humankind on this planet been a verifiable, repeatable instance of metaphysical or supernatural activity or of a single supernatural entity of any type.


Do you believe we are merely thought alone? Is there a God?

We are nothing but animated aggregations of molecules that came together by chance and whatever thoughts or emotions we have are nothing but chemical reactions dictated by the laws of physics. And NO, there is no invisible Sky-Daddy watching over us.

... Freethinker. We are nothing but animated aggregations of molecules that came together by chance and whatever thoughts or emotions we have are nothing but chemical reactions dictated by the laws of physics.

Ah, but what initiates the chemical reactions? Or, do they occur by chance as well?

How do you know she wasn't lying? I know you said that she's a friend of your brothers, but is that really "proof"? Medically speaking, the story doesn't sound very probable.


I heard the story... i can infer more through my brother if you like.. perhaps get details on the doc, the girl.. whatever.

It just doesn't seem like she has much reason to lie.. there's nothing to gain


Yeah....i was thinking along the same lines.

You KNOW the 'good doctor' was bound to have been tappin' that........

Maybe the repeated beef injections cured her........

Yea.. and maybe your mom enjoyed going to street corners and sucking dick for crack while supporting your entire family by having black guys with alot of money rail and split her like thanksgiving turkey...

im glad we both have "class"...

i mean.. you KNOW your "good mom" was BOUND to be whorin herself out, the dirty slut.

Its entirely possible it did happen to. Perhaps she just needed to "work out" whatever was causing her pain. Again if their is a God I hope it would be above merely rewarding blind loyalty at the risk of personal injury.

Possible.. but reguardless its hard to know why she would feel such a strong impulse to run a marathon when she could barely walk to the bathroom. Obviously she had a strong vision or experience to give her a reason or motivation. Plus.. how do you explain that she suddenly no longer felt pain right before the race?

EXACTLY... I am glad she got better but personal divine intervention has left me cold since I was a kid. Like some divine loving deity would personally intervene for some but not others is a frightening prospect. Especially when it involves going against logic to prove faith.

I think thats the ultimate TEST of faith.. going against logic. Jesus's followers left their jobs, money, and family to follow him.. thats not the best logical or best business decision. Noah built a GIGANTIC boat becuase God told him.. logic would say why waste the energy and time? There are countless stories of God requiring massive amounts of faith and NO logic.. it proves you give your life up to God... im not saying everyone has to, but being a christian is a full time thing.

However, I have no problem with miraculous healing in general. Even the whole Christian concept of "the laying on of hands" I think has merit in that there is directed energy flow transfer.

I have entertained the thought of an energy that heals.. i mean, prayer is PROVEN by SCIENCE to work.. people who are prayed for heal faster, even when they DONT know about it. I'll have to relook up that study.. i remember hearing about it years back. But perhaps its just the mere fact that you are concentrating energy toward that person.. who knows.. i sure dont.

[quote=freethinkless]
Even more frightening to me is that the particular divine loving god being talked about is the SAME one that in the past ordered helpless infants to be slaughtered.


He has every right to slaughter infants if he wants.. while its outrageous in today's society.. it was done quite often back then. God has killed many men.. he killed the Egyptian army that chased Noah.. he has every right to. He created us, he put us in this world, he can take us out. Its interesting watching YOU judge a God... your ego needs to be stomped with a hammer a few times.

Why? There are uncountable numbers of people who heal from diseases or conditions which should have killed them. It baffles doctors everyday. Some healings are even spontaneous. It does trancend the law of nature and they are documented. To pretend they don’t exist merely because you are uncomfortable with phenomenon which currently can not be explained is not rational. A miracle is merely an unusal event.


I have heard TONS of stories where people are cured of cancer overnight, spontaneously healed, etc. The thing is.. it seems it mostly comes from people who HAVE given up themselves.. and aren't merely testing to see if it works. I have heard from many christian friends who have watched healings occur.. but also eastern medicine and healings also are documented to have work.. perhaps we are all praying to the same God/energy.

For me a miracle or example of god's love would not involve these things. Indeed the phrase 'divine miracle' never seems far from suffering, disaster, death and/or illness.


Read the Book of Job.. It's not always about puppy dogs and ice cream... sometimes people have to lose everything to get the humility and right frame of mind... at least i assume. But thats not always the case.. Abraham became a VERY wealthy man, but yet still was a follower of God, and was chosen BY God.

Uh...yeah. It basically indicates that there was no healing to be had. At least, not physically.


So she MADE UP the pain that made her have trouble walk and put clothes on? Wow thats quite an imagination she has!

For me a miracle or example of god's love would not involve these things. Indeed the phrase 'divine miracle' never seems far from suffering, disaster, death and/or illness.

Read the Book of Job.. It's not always about puppy dogs and ice cream... sometimes people have to lose everything to get the humility and right frame of mind... at least i assume. But thats not always the case.. Abraham became a VERY wealthy man, but yet still was a follower of God, and was chosen BY God.
Pointing me to yet more woe and despair - sanctioned in the bible no less! - hardly makes a compelling case for god's love.

Ok. It baffles doctors. That STILL does not in any way indicate the existence of "supernaturalism"."..
I agree...I never went to the supernatural end of things...that was a label you used.



a) It does not "trancend" the laws of nature. It is merely a manifestation of a physical law or principle of physics that we do not understand.........yet.
Okay, perhaps I should have been very specific and said it transends our current understanding of the laws of nature.

b) It STILL does not in any way indicate the existence of "supernaturalism"..
Once again...I said a miracle was merely an unusual event...


But there has never in the histroy of humankind on this planet been one shred of proof that said "miracles" were supernatural in origin, and FURTHERMORE, there has never, not ONCE, in the history of humankind on this planet been a verifiable, repeatable instance of metaphysical or supernatural activity or of a single supernatural entity of any type..
Boy you certainly like that word supernatural


We are nothing but animated aggregations of molecules that came together by chance and whatever thoughts or emotions we have are nothing but chemical reactions dictated by the laws of physics. And NO, there is no invisible Sky-Daddy watching over us.
Yeah and some of us have chemical reactions that make things around us feel wonderous, and happy and full of curiosity and open to any experience especially the possiblity of things bigger and more wonderous than ourselves. Those random chemical reactions are pretty miraculous aren't they?
I am relieved there's no invisible Sky-Daddy watching over us...I had a pretty great father already. The Maker of the Universe is so much greater than our little concept of God.

I actually think we agree on somethings here...

Those random chemical reactions are pretty miraculous aren't they?

No.

Flatulence, for example, is due to biological/chemical reactions inside our bodies. No "miracle" involved.

And BTW, when the Bible invokes something as being a "miracle", it very much DOES make a claim of supernaturalism being the source.

THOSE are the type of so-called "miracles" that are irrational nonsense.