Here's the story:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/31/neighbor.stabbing.ap/index.html

The only thing I regretted is that the lawyer didn't get away with it....

Looks like premeditated murder. Wonder what kind of defense they'll mount?

Here's the story:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/31/neighbor.stabbing.ap/index.html

The only thing I regretted is that the lawyer didn't get away with it....

I sure hope you never suspect me of doing anything.

If he abused the kid then it's understandable that he would go after the guy. If somebody abused my son I don't think I would have any problem putting a bullet in the persons head.

Lets just hope the story was correct though, if you are going to react like that - you better be 150% certain the abuse incident actually happened. That's why it's better to leave it to the police.

Now the guy is going to go to jail, the girl will think it's all her fault, what a mess.

I sure hope you never suspect me of doing anything.

The reality is that a molestation charge is nearly impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt with a 2-year old victim and no witnesses....I think the only person who could feel certain about it is a parent (i.e. Your 2-year old daughter starts giving her Ken dolls "blow jobs" and tells you that the neighbor taught her how to do that...). I, as a parent, would have no problem coming to that decision on my own without going through the motions just to have a "not guilty" verdict passed down.

I seriously doubt a 29-year father guy with a great family, career, and reputation would throw it all away on a case where he didn't feel sure about it.

Personally, I don't think there's enough vigilante killing. The justice system is very, very in favor of the defendant, so a lot of guilty people get away with a lot of heinous actions, only to repeat the offense against someone else...and many times, the only person who can be sure, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a suspect is guilty are the people who were victimized.

Even if the guy is found guilty, you're talking about a few years in prison for a first time offender.

If my kid was the victim, I would take care of him myself.

I can understand why he would do it, but he still broke the law. If I were the judge I would go pretty easy on him.

btw this isn't premeditated murder. Premeditated murder means rationally considering the timing and method of murder; he will probably be charged with voluntary manslaughter - a max of 10 years in jail.

The reality is that a molestation charge is nearly impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt with a 2-year old victim and no witnessesI'm guessing that the defense he will attempt will make the reality of the molestation irrelevant. He'll say he was so crazed he wasn't thinking straight. He just has to show that he believed it.

No jury will convict him if in fact the guy was molesting his kid. If I was on such a jury - there is nothing the judge could instruct that would make me return guilty.

He would have looked better if he had shot him rather than break in and stab him thru the heart a bunch of times.

good riddence.

The guy knew exactly what he was doing when this went down and it was his choice. He could have tried to flee but didn't.

The guy he killed was know for cursing at little neighborhood kids, walking around his yard naked, walking naked in the house with the blinds all the way up.

Were I the child's father I would have done the same thing.

What he did was stupid. Any jury that did not convict him would be doing our justice system a great diservice. I think it falls under personal responsibilty. Murder is a crime, and even though he thinks he was in the right, there's this little thing we call "consequences" that people think oftentimes don't apply to themselves. He did the crime, perhaps it's time for him to be a good man and do the time. Wanton vigillante MURDERS are not good for our society nor our justice system.

I, as a parent, would have no problem coming to that decision on my own without going through the motions just to have a "not guilty" verdict passed down.

Would you, as a parent, feel comfortable teaching your children that we are a nation of laws, but that vigilantism is ok if you're "sure" the person you're going to lynch is guilty?


I seriously doubt a 29-year father guy with a great family, career, and reputation would throw it all away on a case where he didn't feel sure about it.

Still, that's exactly what he did.


Personally, I don't think there's enough vigilante killing.

Great. :rolleyes:

btw this isn't premeditated murder. Premeditated murder means rationally considering the timing and method of murder; he will probably be charged with voluntary manslaughter - a max of 10 years in jail.

Of course it's premeditated murder. He put a ladder next to the guy's house and climbed in his bedroom window, and presumably attacked the guy in his bed. What's not premeditated about that?

The guy he killed was know for cursing at little neighborhood kids, walking around his yard naked, walking naked in the house with the blinds all the way up.

Where did you get this information?

Also, which of these offenses, if he committed them, makes him deserve to be stabbed to death?


Were I the child's father I would have done the same thing.

I doubt that. The one thing that's going to be hard for the father to explain away is why they never even complained to the police about any of the neighbor's bizarre behavior.

It amazes me that all you have to do is hint that someone might have molested a child and every intelligent poster on this forum suddenly wants to kill someone.

Of course it's premeditated murder. He put a ladder next to the guy's house and climbed in his bedroom window, and presumably attacked the guy in his bed. What's not premeditated about that?

From my understanding, his wife told him about the molestation - then he went over, grabbed a ladder, went into the guys house and stabbed him. Assuming that he was is a state of rage, that is not premeditated murder.

The key word is rational. Premeditated murder means rationally considering the timing and method of murder so that they have the highest degree of #1 commiting the murder and #2 getting away with it. He was not in a rational state of mind, he was in a rage. Also, he didn't plan the timing, or the method of murder, he just went over there with (probably) the first weapon he found.

Voluntary manslaughter - A killing committed without lawful justification, wherein the defendant acted under a sudden and intense passion resulting from adequate provocation. ie finding out that his daughter was molested.

Where did you get this information? it says it in the article

It amazes me that all you have to do is hint that someone might have molested a child and every intelligent poster on this forum suddenly wants to kill someone.
I'm just putting myself in his shoes. If my daughter told me that my neighbor did certain things to her, I would at least kick the crap outta him. It's really hard to say what you would or wouldn't do, but child molestation is something that would really piss me off, especially if it's my kid.

I would believe my daughter if she said something like that when she was 2. I doubt that she would make something like that up.

Here is the definition of "premeditated" murder:

MURDER, FIRST DEGREE - In order for someone to be found guilty of first degree murder the government must prove that the person killed another person; the person killed the other person with malice aforethought; and the killing was premeditated.

To kill with malice aforethought means to kill either deliberately and intentionally or recklessly with extreme disregard for human life.

Premeditation means with planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation of a killing depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to kill, for the killer to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the killing.



In reading this article, it would seem that the father commited first degree murder; that is, murder with premeditation and malice aforethought. He set out deliberately and willfully to kill.

However, if there is a trial, the jury will hear during the penalty phase of the defendant's (note--seemingly) stellar character and most likely he will receive the minimal sentence under the law.

There's something odd that I can't quite put my finger on with this whole story tho----speaking honestly, if I were in the dad's shoes, and I'm a parent myself, I would want to get more verification of what truly went on before I went and hurt/killed somebody.

A 2 year old child is really not capable of understanding and/or communicating abuse such as that.

Just something odd here.

Here is the definition of "premeditated" murder:

MURDER, FIRST DEGREE - In order for someone to be found guilty of first degree murder the government must prove that the person killed another person; the person killed the other person with malice aforethought; and the killing was premeditated.

To kill with malice aforethought means to kill either deliberately and intentionally or recklessly with extreme disregard for human life.

Premeditation means with planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation of a killing depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to kill, for the killer to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the killing.

An act in a highly emotional state does not constitute 'planning or deliberation' and in his situation he most definitely did not give consideration to the killing. It appeared that he made no attempt to hide the fact that he killed and it also appears that he acted immediately upon hearing the news. However it DOES perfectly match the definition for Voluntary Manslaughter.

A 2 year old child is really not capable of understanding and/or communicating abuse such as that.
They can form sentences right? If her mom asked her where she was, she could tell her, and she might tell her what happened over there also, especially if it was a new experience. Why would the child lie, and more importantly where would she get the idea to tell her mom anything related to molestation if she was going to lie?

I don't know--the fact that the dad took the time to get a ladder ( and why did he go in through the window? --curious about that )---this shows he took time.
also, notice--BOTH times the wife told the dad about these alleged incidents.
What is going on here?

From cnn. com:

Edington's landlord, Karen Brophy, told the Post that Edington's wife had told her in a phone call about three months ago that James had exposed himself.

????????
Was she not capable of telling someone (authorities) about this?

They can form sentences right? If her mom asked her where she was, she could tell her, and she might tell her what happened over there also, especially if it was a new experience. Why would the child lie, and more importantly where would she get the idea to tell her mom anything related to molestation if she was going to lie?


So the guy exposes himself ( supposedly)--- then this---how did the child come in contact with this man?
am curious to hear this from the MOM.

PS-Was the couple having marital problems???


Just wondering.

I think this father is one of my new heros! I mean, i'm not saying it was right, but that little girl was totally helpless. All she knows is that someone did something that mommy and daddy don't ever do. The sad part is that the father is going to miss some of his little girls life. I am not sad that the child mostester is dead, infact I think that father did a favor to the community! They should be thanking him in stead of aresting him. However, that is not how things work, so we'll see what happens.

Edington's landlord, Karen Brophy, told the Post that Edington's wife had told her in a phone call about three months ago that James had exposed himself.

????????
Was she not capable of telling someone (authorities) about this?

also, notice--BOTH times the wife told the dad about these alleged incidents.
What is going on here?
She could have. Most people try to settle things without calling the cops. I wouldn't call the cops on something like that, I doubt that many would unless it was a regular occurence.

So the guy exposes himself ( supposedly)--- then this---how did the child come in contact with this man?
am curious to hear this from the MOM.
We don't know. The article left a lot out. I was making assumptions that may have been wrong since we have so little to go on. We don't know if the molestation happened, we don't know what the daughter said, we don't know what the mom told her husband, but since we're just speculating right now we're free to make those assumptions ;)

Glad you're thinking logically rendova - the media does love to put a 'hero' or 'villain' spin on things

There's something odd that I can't quite put my finger on with this whole story tho----speaking honestly, if I were in the dad's shoes, and I'm a parent myself, I would want to get more verification of what truly went on before I went and hurt/killed somebody.

A 2 year old child is really not capable of understanding and/or communicating abuse such as that.

Just something odd here.

Two year olds are capable of comunicating. The girl might not have know what the man was doing to her was abuse, but it is something that doesn't normally happen. Like for instance, I got pulled over for speeding wiht a little girl that age in my car and as the lights turned on she looked up and went "you made a biggg oppsie".. Now she doesn't know what it means to get a speeding ticket, and her mom had never been pulled over with her in the car, but yet she knew that it wasn't good!... I guess what I'm trying to show is that the little girl knew that man did something not normal and said something to her mommy about it.

Absolutely, nurse, and we are all speculating here--like wind wip says--there's a lot we don't know as yet--the victim may well have been a bit odd, but innocent of this crime---there will be more on this, I'm sure.

So the guy exposes himself ( supposedly)--- then this---how did the child come in contact with this man?
am curious to hear this from the MOM.

That's what I'm wondering myself. You don't just let a two-year-old wander off long enough to have anything really serious done to her unless you're a pretty crappy parent. I suppose they might have let him babysit, but it didn't say anything like that in the article. I find it hard to believe that the old guy could have done anything to her beyond exposing himself. Which deserves a good ass-kicking but not death.

Geez, things like murder can get you disbarred. ;)

I would believe my daughter if she said something like that when she was 2. I doubt that she would make something like that up.

1. 2 year-olds get confused...

2. yes how did this guy James get access to the child for long enough to commit an indecent act

3. how stable is mummy

Remember when those Day care owners where charged with committing indecent acts and using their kids for devil worship...yup...those kids made it up...wow...children do lie... big surprise. Their lives were all ruined.

Nice growing up knowing daddy killed the neighbour because he mooned you.

They need to do a psych exam on the whole family...

The guy he killed was know for cursing at little neighborhood kids, walking around his yard naked, walking naked in the house with the blinds all the way up.

I'm curious where you heard all of those allegations?!

I find it hard to believe any newspaper or teevee program would level such inflammatory charges after the original article on CNN came out.

Any jury that did not convict him would be doing our justice system a great diservice.
Murder is a crime, and even though he thinks he was in the right, there's this little thing we call "consequences" Good unemotional analysis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogger
The guy he killed was know for cursing at little neighborhood kids, walking around his yard naked, walking naked in the house with the blinds all the way up.


Where did you get this information?

From the news reports.



It seems the parents in Allforums tend to think one way and the non-parents another. I think that if and when some of our posters have children of their own they might think differently.

it says it in the article


No, actually what it says in the article is:

""We have no indication (the molestation claim) is true or not true," Capt. Gary MacNamara said Wednesday, adding that authorities had not received a complaint about the neighbor immediately before the killing.

Police had gone to the neighborhood before, when Edington called to complain that he could see James through a window, police said. "Either he was partly clothed or revealed parts of his anatomy that were inappropriate," MacNamara said.

Edington's landlord, Karen Brophy, told the Post that Edington's wife had told her in a phone call about three months ago that James had exposed himself."

And...

"Another time a neighbor found James intoxicated on the street, Maynard said. James shouted obscenities at children, he said."

From this we get...

"The guy he killed was know for cursing at little neighborhood kids, walking around his yard naked, walking naked in the house with the blinds all the way up."

"Children" become "little neighborhood kids", and one incident where the murdered person may have exposed himself becomes multiple incidents of him walking around his house and yard naked. BTW, it's no crime to be naked in your own house.

You may not like this guy much, but that's no excuse to distort what was reported about him.

From the news reports.

Reports? We've only had one report posted here, and that doesn't back up your claims about the murdered man.


It seems the parents in Allforums tend to think one way and the non-parents another.

It seems to me that you haven't thought about this at all. You've reacted out of emotion, and that's exactly what the father did in this case.


I think that if and when some of our posters have children of their own they might think differently.

I disagree. If I had children I might feel differently, but I would hope, for my child's sake, that I wouldn't do something as stupid and morally wrong as the father did in this case.

An act in a highly emotional state does not constitute 'planning or deliberation' and in his situation he most definitely did not give consideration to the killing. It appeared that he made no attempt to hide the fact that he killed and it also appears that he acted immediately upon hearing the news. However it DOES perfectly match the definition for Voluntary Manslaughter.

Apparently the authorities believe he committed murder since he was charged with murder and burglary.

I don't think any of you understand how difficult molestation charges are to prove in court. Child witnesses are very, very bad witnesses....You can tell that just from hearing the responses in this forum. The same discussions happen in jury deliberation rooms...

"You know, 2 year olds can get very confused....I know there was that devil-worshiping accusation against babysitters a while back."

"How did the mom let the neighbor access the child...maybe there's something wrong with the mom."

"No one SAW him molesting her...."

"I don't know if I can convict someone BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT based on the testimony of a two-year old and a mother with questionable parenting skills..."

Those are the sort of questions juries would address in the case. And I guarantee, any half-decent defense attorney would exploit every one of those questions. Not only that, but a trial like that will be very hard on your family, particularly his wife...I bet the young attorney knew that before he did what he did.

I feel confident that a responsible parent can KNOW when his/her child has been molested under circumstances where it would be difficult to for an impartial jury to decide.

P.S. I heard the same information about the neighbor's erratic behavior before this incident. They're on the video attached to the article link, I believe.

Apparently the authorities believe he committed murder since he was charged with murder and burglary.

What he's charged with and what he's convicted of are very different things. I would expect a manslaughter plea offer in this case.

I feel confident that a responsible parent can KNOW when his/her child has been molested under circumstances where it would be difficult to for an impartial jury to decide.

.


That is not always so.
in many cases, it goes unnoticed, for some time. and these are responsbile parents.
The child is made to feel ashamed and/or fearful.
Which is why many times these crimes go on for YEARS with the same victim .

I question again the father's actions. I wonder, again, what exactly this molestation exactly was--did the victim merely expose himself?
Make a remark?
Touch inappropriately?

In a case of full-fledged rape, this will be easy to prove.
If not, the dad is in quite a bit of trouble.

As for killing the man--this was wrong.
The girl is still alive.
Make the punishment fit the crime or we all go back to the Dark Ages.

Rendova, mother of five

As for killing the man--this was wrong.
The girl is still alive.
Make the punishment fit the crime or we all go back to the Dark Ages.

Rendova, mother of five

Punishment should be greater than the crime, because for every crime that is punished, there are many, many more that go unpunished. For that reason, if you make punishment roughly equal to crime, you may as well admit that crime does pay.

What he did was stupid. Any jury that did not convict him would be doing our justice system a great diservice. I think it falls under personal responsibilty. Murder is a crime, and even though he thinks he was in the right, there's this little thing we call "consequences" that people think oftentimes don't apply to themselves. He did the crime, perhaps it's time for him to be a good man and do the time. Wanton vigillante MURDERS are not good for our society nor our justice system.

Stupid, I really don't think so. What would you have done if that was your daughter. Would you have waited around for the cops to not find any evidence and not put that pervert away? Murder is a crime, but when someone does something as horrible as molest your child, I think you would do your worst. It's the instinct.

Right--many DO go unpunished.
But you know what they say--if you're not caught, then it ain't no crime. :)

In the interests of fairness, I believe and always have that a sentence should be commensurate with the wrongdoing.

And if you're gonna kill somebody, for god's sakes, be a little more careful than THIS guy.

j/k

Disgusting side note--we are all aware of how easy it is to accuse someone--anyone--of the revolting crime of molesting children.
It appears to be the hip thing to do nowadays--feuding neighbors, divorcing couples, a woman who's been dumped by a boyfriend, an unpopular teacher----get accused of this, go behind bars, even if exonerated, see life ruined--forever.

I am wondering if this very thing went on in THIS case.

Right--many DO go unpunished.
I am wondering if this very thing went on in THIS case.

Personally, if someone is putting his/her family, career, and freedom in grave danger to make the accusation, then I tend to believe them.

Originally Posted by Frogger
The guy he killed was know for cursing at little neighborhood kids, walking around his yard naked, walking naked in the house with the blinds all the way up.


Where did you get this information?


From the news reports.



I'm skeptical that a news report says what you claim. How about citing a couple of them, Frogger.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, THE pertinent question in all of this was asked by rendova------

""I wonder, again, what exactly this molestation exactly was--did the victim merely expose himself?""

If the guy physically molested the little girl, i may not condone what the lawyer did, but I might have reacted out of rage just as the lawyer did.

But if the lawyer calculatedly murdered this sick person simply for exposing himself, he needs to be charged with murder

It seems the parents in Allforums tend to think one way and the non-parents another. I think that if and when some of our posters have children of their own they might think differently.

No, I don't think so. Being a mild-mannered attorney with a 2 year old daughter, I seem to have quite a bit in common with this guy and I would never go off a neighbor based on something my daughter said. Mind you, if I saw her running from his house with no clothes on and he's standing there naked, I'd beat the living crap out of him, but there's still no way in hell I'd risk anything approaching life in jail for a piece of crap like that.

Besides, having had conversations with my daughter, and seen her conversations with her grandparents, she's not exactly what I would call a reliable witness. She'll answer "yes" to just about every question you put to her. And if she started talking about sex organs or something I'd be pretty suspicious because she's shown no interest in that part of her body so far and doesn't know the names of any parts. So basically what I'm saying is that I'd never kill someone based on something she said.

Reports? We've only had one report posted here, and that doesn't back up your claims about the murdered man.

The fact that only one report was posted here doesn't mean only one report was made. I have read it in two newspapers, seen it on television and read in on the internet. I didn't rely on the single report posted in this thread.



It seems to me that you haven't thought about this at all. You've reacted out of emotion, and that's exactly what the father did in this case.

Yes, I have reacted out of emotion. I have said what I, as a parent and grandparent would do to someone who mollested my young child or grandchild. I can fully understand the father's actions.



I disagree. If I had children I might feel differently, but I would hope, for my child's sake, that I wouldn't do something as stupid and morally wrong as the father did in this case.

You can disagree all you want but the fact is, you don't have children and you have no idea how you would react if you were told the next door neighbor, a man you had called the police about before, had molested your two year old.

Yes, I have reacted out of emotion. I have said what I, as a parent and grandparent would do to someone who mollested my young child or grandchild. I can fully understand the father's actions.

Frogger, somehow this statement just does not ring true. The child is two years old How did this man get his hands on your two year old child if supposedly the whole neighbourhood was aware of his bizarre behaviour. This whole thing is too simplistic.

I absolutley doubt you would be running for the ladder, crawling in his window and killing him. That is ridiculous beyond belief. It is almost laughable

I would kill my wife first. Seriously, who is responsible for this child's care?

It is very nice and gallant and noble to think of murdering a child molester... but it is beyond my wildest comprehension that someone becomes judge, jury and executioner destroying one's whole life based on the word of a two year old.

This has nothing to do with those who have children and who do not.

It has everything to do with slowing down and seeing what is placed before you. What if the guy didn't do it? Is this child's life not worth weighing the facts of the case first before having a totally irrational melt down in order to deal with possible self guilt that one allowed one's child to be placed in danger?

Is the mother sane? Is the father sane? No two year old is going to tell mummy, the neighbour molested me. That is over the top.

Nothing makes sense here.

Sal,

None of us knows what we would do unless faced with the situation. It is easy to say he should have done this, should have done that, should not have done that other thing.

I know that if someone molested one of my children or grandchildren I would not be thinking of how my actions might affect my life. I would just want to kill the SOB.

I lay part of the blame with the police who seem to have taken no action despite complaints by the dead man's neighbors. The guy was a bomb waiting to go off. He walked around his yard naked, walked in front of windows with the blinds up, naked, cursed at neighborhood kids and just a while before actually drove his car right through the back of his garage and into his neighbor's house.

This was a young father who had just been told by his wife that the crazu guy next door had molested their daughter. He is not the first parent to kill someone who molested his child and I doubt he will be the last.

None of us knows what we would do unless faced with the situation. It is easy to say he should have done this, should have done that, should not have done that other thing.

Agreed. Then how are we to take your next statement?


I know that if someone molested one of my children or grandchildren I would not be thinking of how my actions might affect my life. I would just want to kill the SOB.

Have any of your children or grandchildren been molested?


I lay part of the blame with the police who seem to have taken no action despite complaints by the dead man's neighbors. The guy was a bomb waiting to go off. He walked around his yard naked, walked in front of windows with the blinds up, naked, cursed at neighborhood kids and just a while before actually drove his car right through the back of his garage and into his neighbor's house.

If you wish to debate these points please provide sources. I can find no news stories online that say this guy walked around naked.


This was a young father who had just been told by his wife that the crazu guy next door had molested their daughter.

And then he acted "crazier" than the neighbor.


He is not the first parent to kill someone who molested his child and I doubt he will be the last.

He didn't kill someone that molested his child, he killed a neighbor based on the flimsiest of evidence, the statement of a two year-old.

It seems people think that molestation and rape are equal to murder.
Granted, I'm not a parent and if I was I'm sure I'd be for the death of anyone who did that to my child.

HOWEVER, as a parent you have emotional issues that get in the way of clear thinking. That is just a fact. That is why we must stick to the law, which is an un-bias look at a situation such as this. Which is you cannot just murder someone for being a molester.

Which is you cannot just murder someone for being a molester

ALLEGED molester - we'll never know now

The lawyer should go to jail - way to look after your child's upbringing :rolleyes:

The so-called 'parents' in this thread make me sick. Someone does something to your own child, your brain switches off and you say you would kill them (which, BTW, is BS from the majority of you I say). Why is that more important than what happens to someone else's child? Parenting involves responsibility and imparting values to your children

The girl was not murdered. I can't say I can remember anything that happened to me when I was 2. If her dad wasn't going to jail now she would probably grow up relatively normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogger
None of us knows what we would do unless faced with the situation. It is easy to say he should have done this, should have done that, should not have done that other thing.


Agreed. Then how are we to take your next statement?


Quote:
I know that if someone molested one of my children or grandchildren I would not be thinking of how my actions might affect my life. I would just want to kill the SOB.


Have any of your children or grandchildren been molested?

I didn't say what I would do. I said how I would feel. Feelings don't always translate into actions. If someone hurts your child the natural reaction is to get that person. Being humans with millenia of aculturation that tells us to not do that most of us would be able to not act on those feelings.

He didn't kill someone that molested his child, he killed a neighbor based on the flimsiest of evidence, the statement of a two year-old.

Untrue. He didn't kill someone based on the statement of a two year old. He killed someone based on the statement of his wife, an adult whom he loved and trusted to be truthful.

The so-called 'parents' in this thread make me sick.


People who sign on as, thebabyjesus, make me sick. I recall your post in the picture of Jesus fellating a pig thread. I didn't think much of you then and I think even less of you nowl

Untrue. He didn't kill someone based on the statement of a two year old. He killed someone based on the statement of his wife, an adult whom he loved and trusted to be truthful.

I stand corrected. He murdered someone based on hearsay from a two year-old.

You don 't know thata either, Vilepagan. The newspaper reports did not say how the mother found out. You are making assumptions.

You don 't know thata either, Vilepagan. The newspaper reports did not say how the mother found out. You are making assumptions.

ROFL. I'm making assumptions? Good one Frogger.

Oh, you're not making assumptions?

First you assumed the child told her father. Then you assumed the child told her mother. Those are assumptions.

I am not assuming the man was guilty of child molestation. I am saying that the father killed him based on the father's belief he molested his child. I also said that I would have an impulse to do the same if I thought someone had molested my child.

We will never know if the man actually molested the little girl but the father's action were predicated on that belief. That is not an assumption.

Oh, you're not making assumptions?

Not nearly as many as you.

I am not assuming the man was guilty of child molestation.No?He is not the first parent to kill someone who molested his child and I doubt he will be the last.
Perhaps Vile can be forgiven for thinking you are.

Sal,

None of us knows what we would do unless faced with the situation. It is easy to say he should have done this, should have done that, should not have done that other thing.

I know that if someone molested one of my children or grandchildren I would not be thinking of how my actions might affect my life. I would just want to kill the SOB.

I lay part of the blame with the police who seem to have taken no action despite complaints by the dead man's neighbors. The guy was a bomb waiting to go off. He walked around his yard naked, walked in front of windows with the blinds up, naked, cursed at neighborhood kids and just a while before actually drove his car right through the back of his garage and into his neighbor's house.

This was a young father who had just been told by his wife that the crazu guy next door had molested their daughter. He is not the first parent to kill someone who molested his child and I doubt he will be the last.

Frogger, saying what you would want to do and actually DOING it are light years away.

If I were in charge of any small person and someone attempted to harm them in anyway, I would do what ever was necessary in order to protect them. THAT is not what happened here.

Everyone jumped the gun and sided with the lawyer but there are too many unknown variables here. YOU DO NOT KNOW:
how stable the mum is
what was actually DONE to the child
when the alleged incident occurred
if the child can even actually communicate in a coherent way


As a parent one's first instinct should have been to PROTECT THE CHILD. That means getting the kid some HELP. I don't see anything in the article about that. He took a life based solely on the word of his wife who concluded this from the word of a two year old. That is beyond belief. And the title of the thread ADMITS it is merely alleged.

What if this guy that was murdered were your child. He was somebody's child. What if he merely has some kind of undiagnosed brain lession and was must acting bizarre and mooned your kid. He deserves to die.... NO. We have no evidence of anything.

Sal,

The accusation of child abuse did not occur in a vacume. The lawyer had previously called police about the man and according to the news reports nothing was done.

There was an ongoing series of bizarre behaviors by the neighbor of a seemingly sexual nature, ie, walking nude in the yard, walking nude in front of windows with the drapes not drawn.

Under the circumstances it is understandable that the lawyer believed what his wife told him. I know that if I had a neighbor like that, one about whom I had called the police, and my wife told me he abused my young child I would believe her.

Personally, I find these cases hard. You always want to take the side of the child, no matter what. It is just natural to believe the child and makes it hard to look at a story with an un-bias perspective.

Isnt anyone curious how the guy had access to the 2 year old?

Isnt anyone curious how the guy had access to the 2 year old?

Welcome to the forum Bornfree... I think that was mentioned frequently in various threads above...

Hey, Sal, bornfree is another Canadian. Pretty soon you guys will outnumber we Anmericans. Maybe you can get free, universal health care for all of us. :rolleyes:

Isnt anyone curious how the guy had access to the 2 year old?

That was not explained inthe article.

Also, pay no attention to the incessant allegations that the neighbor Barry James was seen *walking around in the yard naked*.

That has not been substantiated in any way.

Welcome to the forum Bornfree... I think that was mentioned frequently in various threads above...

Sorry, I hadnt scanned thru all the posts.

Sorry, I hadnt scanned thru all the posts.

You apology is unecessary.

Nowhere in this entire thread is there a word describing just how James had access to the 2 year old.

Welcome to the forum Bornfree... I think that was mentioned frequently in various threads above...

Thanks Frogger.

I am tempted to wait untill all the facts come out. The news folks and all the legal pundits had Mr. &/OR Mrs Ramsey as the perp(s) for killing JonBenet. Then they were damn positive that John Mark Karr did it.

Hey, Sal, bornfree is another Canadian. Pretty soon you guys will outnumber we Anmericans. Maybe you can get free, universal health care for all of us. :rolleyes:

Its a pretty good system as a whole but its not free (we pay big tax rates for it) and the wait lines arent all that attractive.

Welcome to the forum Bornfree...

PS. Thanks for the welcoming Sal....

Hey, Sal, bornfree is another Canadian. Pretty soon you guys will outnumber we Anmericans. Maybe you can get free, universal health care for all of us. :rolleyes:

Heeeeeeeeeeeey, we are taking over..perhaps warn Bush that we may once again burn down the white house...:p And then implement our health care system.

Sorry, I hadnt scanned thru all the posts.

No problem Bornfree just wanted to point out that there were various other posters who had the same question.

You apology is unecessary.

Nowhere in this entire thread is there a word describing just how James had access to the 2 year old.

ummmm...that was kind of the point some of us were trying to make... kind of leads back to the parents...:thumbs:

ROFL. I'm making assumptions? Good one Frogger.

Yes, you made an assumption, and a rather large one at that. You assumed that a person who seems perfectly normal and sane in everyway decided to kill his obnoxious neighbor because his 2-year old said the neighbor did something bad without any corroborating evidence.

I think Frogger and I are making an assumption, but one which is not quite so unlikely. That is, we assume a 29-year old attorney with a good reputation and a lot to lose doesn't haul off and kill a person based on unreliable evidence. The difference is my assumption (and Frogger's) makes a lot more sense.

It seems people think that molestation and rape are equal to murder.

HOWEVER, as a parent you have emotional issues that get in the way of clear thinking. That is just a fact. That is why we must stick to the law, which is an un-bias look at a situation such as this. Which is you cannot just murder someone for being a molester.

If anyone does something obviously horrible and unprovoked to someone you love, I think a vigilante slaying makes a lot of sense. Believe it or not, justice and the law frequently don't mix.

Heeeeeeeeeeeey, we are taking over..perhaps warn Bush that we may once again burn down the white house... And then implement our health care system. Only if you promise to restore it to its original pink hue..
Believe it or not, justice and the law frequently don't mix. truer words were never spoken...

I'm waiting for someone here to offer a rational explanation as to how the neighbour had sole access to the 2 year old child. It makes absolutely no sense from the information put forth so far.

They were next door neighbors. Perhaps the child was in her back yard and he snuck in the yard and abused her.

This isn't about the mother's parenting skills. They may have been poor. She may have not always had complete control over her child. That is something she will have to live with.

This is about a man who believed his next door neighbor molested his two year old daughter and killed that man. Remember, the accusation of molestation did not happen in isolatiion. According to reports, both he and other neighbors had previously complained about the man's behavior and actions.

This is a tragedy but an understandable one. I am pretty sure that if when my children were young my wife had told me the man next door had molested one of them I would, in rage, confront him and maybe even kill him. It is an emotion very close to other crimes of passion such as killing a wife's lover. Passion overtakes reason for a moment and you do things you probably wouldn't do if forced to wait for a period of time.

Only if you promise to restore it to its original pink hue..


DONE! pink is pretty!

I am pretty sure that if when my children were young my wife had told me the man next door had molested one of them I would, in rage, confront him and maybe even kill him
I'm pretty sure she wouldn't of had to tell you that!

If anyone does something obviously horrible and unprovoked to someone you love, I think a vigilante slaying makes a lot of sense. Believe it or not, justice and the law frequently don't mix.
Okay Leper, let's just say just for a moment that we all agree on this statement and then go back to this specific case. What in this specific case would be "horrible" enough for you personally to give up your life and ruin your family's chances of healing? Where would you personally draw the line?

Yes, you made an assumption, and a rather large one at that. You assumed that a person who seems perfectly normal and sane in everyway decided to kill his obnoxious neighbor because his 2-year old said the neighbor did something bad without any corroborating evidence.

Everyone posting in this thread made some assumptions, but those who are rooting for the dad in this case are making far more than others. If I'm assuming there was no corroborating evidence it's because none has been mentioned. You on the other hand assume such evidence must exist because you can't justify his behavior otherwise.



I think Frogger and I are making an assumption, but one which is not quite so unlikely. That is, we assume a 29-year old attorney with a good reputation and a lot to lose doesn't haul off and kill a person based on unreliable evidence. The difference is my assumption (and Frogger's) makes a lot more sense.

Except that according to the evidence we have available it appears that's exactly what the dad did in this case.

They were next door neighbors. Perhaps the child was in her back yard and he snuck in the yard and abused her.

I dont believe that. Given that the parents were previously concerned about the next door neighbours apparent bizarre behaviour, the Mother would never have left the child unattended. Ergo, until the full story comes out, it makes no sense to jump to any conclusions on this one.

Remember JonBenet? The media got it wrong twice.

Permit me to add this comment. If the Father was so enraged at what he learned from his wife, I would think that he would have immediately marched over to the neighbours house and confronted him at the front door and perhaps smashed his head in with a tire iron or blown his brains out. Insted, he elected to wait and climb into the guys window and stab him to death. Doesnt make sense. There is a lot more to this story than we've seen so far.

This is about a man who believed his next door neighbor ........

Could you PLEASE give us the links to where you are coming up with all these claims?!?!?

First, you claim James was naked in front of the window (I realize that the article that leads off this thread says differently, but what i'm looking for is the news info that YOU are reading where it says he was naked in front of an uncovered window)

Secondly, you claim (repeatedly) that he was walking outside in the yard naked.

Now, you come up with *they were next door neighbors*.

Maybe all those things ARE true..........I just want to know the soucre you're getting them from...


........?!?!?!?!

It doesn't matter if they're neighbors. It doesn't even matter (in the case) if the actual molestation occurred. What does matter is whether or not the father believed that the molestation happened, and whether he had reason to believe that.

All this speculation is going no where.

It seems to me that the father did what he needed to to feel satisfied/justified. Not saying its right or its wrong but its what he needed. It seems that way to me because (again with the speculation...) he made no effort what-so-ever to cover his tracks. he didn't kill the mother, he didn't wait until he could sneak in completely unnoticed, he didn't put up a struggle when the cops found him.

It will be interesting to hear what he has to say for himself.

I would criticize him 2 fold.
According to the article:
1. He didn't seem to verify said information with his daughter, only second hand from the wife.
2. He could have waited for the cops to do or not do something and see how he felt about it after that.

Could you PLEASE give us the links to where you are coming up with all these claims?!?!?

First, you claim James was naked in front of the window (I realize that the article that leads off this thread says differently, but what i'm looking for is the news info that YOU are reading where it says he was naked in front of an uncovered window)

Secondly, you claim (repeatedly) that he was walking outside in the yard naked.

Now, you come up with *they were next door neighbors*.

Maybe all those things ARE true..........I just want to know the soucre you're getting them from...


........?!?!?!?!

The information about him walking naked in his yard, walking naked in front of uncovered windows and cursing at neighborhood children was in the initial news reports as was the information of his driving his car right through the back of his garage and into a neighbor's house.

ALLEGED molester - we'll never know now

The lawyer should go to jail - way to look after your child's upbringing :rolleyes:

The so-called 'parents' in this thread make me sick. Someone does something to your own child, your brain switches off and you say you would kill them (which, BTW, is BS from the majority of you I say). Why is that more important than what happens to someone else's child? Parenting involves responsibility and imparting values to your children

The girl was not murdered. I can't say I can remember anything that happened to me when I was 2. If her dad wasn't going to jail now she would probably grow up relatively normal.

If you were molested at any age, you'd remember. In fact, it would be something that would haunt you for the rest of your life! Now the sad part is that she's going to feel at fault her whole life for her dad going to jail.

Interesting. A surprising number of posters seem to think it's OK for a parent to murder someone suspected of molesting his (or her) child.

Let's think about this for a bit.
Do I have to do it myself, or can I get a friend to do it?
What if it's my nephew that's been molested, can I still murder the molester, or do I have the actual father to do it. For that matter, can anyone murder a child molester?
How much suspicion does there have to be? Obviously there is insufficient for a guilty verdict, but how much will we need? Is the unsupported word of a young child enough? How about a neighbour saying he thinks it's happening?

I'm sorry, there are too many imponderables here. I'm not saying I would not do it in a fit of rage, but I cannot agree that such an action should be permissible in law.

sarcasm alert!
I'm guessing pretty well every parent would instinctively climb into a neighbours window in a fit of rage to kill them. :rolleyes:

The information about him walking naked in his yard, walking naked in front of uncovered windows and cursing at neighborhood children was in the initial news reports as was the information of his driving his car right through the back of his garage and into a neighbor's house.

Ok.

WHAT specific news report, and where can I find it?

Do you have a link?? Was it a teevee report, or a newspaper report??

I just want to know the source you're getting them from.

Here are a few of the many news reports, Freethinker.

The last one from the New York Post is the one that talks about him walking naked in his yard. The others talk about other aspects of his erratic behavior, walking nude in front of windows, cursing at neighborhood children, passing out dead drunk in his driveway, driving his car through his garage and into his neighbor's house, etc.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/31/neighbor.stabbing.ap/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/nyregion/31stab.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14588572/

http://www.care2.com/news/member/434996229/166135

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/dad_kills_in_perv_rage_regionalnews_jeane_macintos h_________and_lukas_i__alpert.htm

People who sign on as, thebabyjesus, make me sick. I recall your post in the picture of Jesus fellating a pig thread. I didn't think much of you then and I think even less of you nowl

Feel free to continue to attack me based on my name and a single tongue-in-cheek post from another unreleated thread rather than adressing what I actually said here if that makes you feel better


If you were molested at any age, you'd remember

I'd be interested to know what you are basing that on?

In fact, it would be something that would haunt you for the rest of your life! Now the sad part is that she's going to feel at fault her whole life for her dad going to jail

So, if she was indeed molested, she'll remember being molested and as well as feeling guilty about jail. Once again, great work Dad, way to look after your daughter's mental health, and well done parents in this thread that say they would want to do the same thing

thebabyjesus, I'm basing my claim that she'll remember on both nursing school experience and because I know a little girl that was molested around that age, a little younger, and she can remember. She's only 3 now, so its not like she sits and talks about it.. but her actions show that she remembers something bad happened to her that she doesn't want to happen again.

Here are a few of the many news reports, Freethinker.
The last one from the New York Post is the one that talks about him walking naked in his yard. The others talk about other aspects of his erratic behavior, walking nude in front of windows, cursing at neighborhood children, passing out dead drunk in his driveway, driving his car through his garage and into his neighbor's house, etc.



Ya cant always belive what you read. CNN says he climbed thru the bedroom window and the Post says the kitchen window. Whats up with that?

Feel free to continue to attack me based on my name and a single tongue-in-cheek post from another unreleated thread rather than adressing what I actually said here if that makes you feel better

I'm not basing my opinion of you solely on your name even though it is needlessly provocative. I am basing it on your post in which you attacked those who disagreed with you. I will continue to consider you an asshole so long as you continue to post as you did. You don't want to be attacked, don't post like such a shithead.

bornfree,

There is an old saying, believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see.

Were the information in only one newspaper I might dismiss it but it appeared in quite a few independent reports. It might actually be false but I don't believe it is.

Freethinker asked where I got my information from, I told him and posted some sites. That is all.

bornfree,

There is an old saying, believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see.

Were the information in only one newspaper I might dismiss it but it appeared in quite a few independent reports. It might actually be false but I don't believe it is.

Freethinker asked where I got my information from, I told him and posted some sites. That is all.

Frogger,

I only made the comment because there have been many assumptions and theories gratuitiously offered in this thread. I have pointed out one inconsistency in the reporting of the facts and hopefully it might make people stop and think about it all.

Based on the information presented so far, one could also conclude that a molestation didnt occur and that the lawyer has a mental problem of his own. My reason for saying that is that if the parents had serious concerns about their neighbour the 2 year old would never have been left alone for any period of time to permit a molestation to take place. If the lawyer was so incensed and in a blind rage, the more credible scenario would be that he would have gone over and rung the bell and beaten the crap out of the neighbour.

I think that we all should wait for the facts to come out at trial because this is one oddball and tragic story....

DONE! pink is pretty!
If Canadians had control of the White House, I couldn't think of a more appropriate color.