A Look at the Muslims’ Mindset
August 22nd, 2006



Defusing the present dangerous confrontation between Islam and the West demands rational, impartial and cool heads to untangle facts from myth. We must seek to understand the Muslims’ mindset in comparison with that of the West, acknowledging vast individual and cultural differences within each group, while seeking outlines of meaningful distinctions.

The Muslims’ perennial complaint is that the imperialist West—all colonial powers of the past, as well as the United States of America today—have victimized them for decades and even centuries and continue to do so in every conceivable way. The litany of the alleged wrongdoings by the West is encyclopedic. To begin with, the West has shown utter contempt for the legitimate rights of the Muslim nation by arbitrarily dividing much of the Islamic land into fractured entities, plundering its resources, and topping these crimes by installing in its midst its illegitimate stepchild, Israel—a huge thorn in their side, so they complain.

“A grain of truth is needed to make a mountain of lies believable,” is an old saw. In fairness to Muslims, there is some substance to their claims against the West. For now, let us focus on the general mindset of Muslims which bears heavily on the hostility toward the West—a serious hostility that may bring about the dreaded Armageddon.

* Patriarchy and authoritarianism. The Muslim’s mind is imprinted with authoritarianism which starts with the supreme authority, Allah, through his one and only prophet, Muhammad, his Caliphs or Imams, and the high-ranking religious divines all the way down to the village clergy. This authoritarian mentality encompasses all aspects of life for the Muslim. The king and his dominion as the viceroy of God, the Emir and his despotic ways, the Khan and his unchallenged rule over the tribe, the village headsman and his extensive power, and finally the father and his iron grip at home over the women and children. All these authority figures are male.

* Blind obedience. A dangerous feature of authoritarianism is the relative lack of independent thinking. This deficiency makes the person highly amenable to manipulation. Islam, by its rigidly authoritarian make-up, discourages Muslim independent thinking to the extent that the believer blindly adopts it as his infallible system of belief. Hence, the religion of Islam is guilty of conditioning masses of people as easily manipulate-able instruments in the hands of authority figures.

* Focus on goal. To Muslims, the goal is everything. Islam condones any and all means to achieve its goals. The ultimate objective of Islam is the rule of the entire world under the Islamic Ummah—never mind that these life-in-hand soldiers of Allah disagree with one another regarding the Ummah itself and who is going to reign over it. That’s a “family dispute” that they will resolve by their usual favorite method—brute force.

Each Islamic sect believes that it has the Prophet and Allah on its side and it will prevail over the other. For now they have to work diligently to achieve the intermediary goal of defeating all non-believers. There are countless instances that substantiate Muslims’ “end justifies the means” guiding principle. This policy dates back to Muhammad himself. Muhammad repeatedly made peace covenants with his adversaries, only to violate them as soon as he was in advantageous position to do so. Betrayal, deception and outright lies are fully condoned in furthering the work of Islam. In the present-day world, the work of Islam is defined by a deeply-entrenched and influential clergy who issue fatwa—rulings—that become directives and laws to the faithful.

Khomeini, the founder of the Iranian Islamic state, for one, made extensive use of the fatwa. Widely-known in the west is Khomeini’s fatwa condemning Selman Rushdie to death for his book. A less known fatwa of Khomeini during the last Iran-Iraq war led to the slaughter of thousands of Iranian children. Children, nearly all under 15 years of age, were given plastic keys to paradise as they were commanded by the fatwa of the imam to rush forward to clear minefields for the tanks to follow. The Islamic murderers, in obedience to the fatwa of a bloodthirsty man of Allah, had no problem in deceiving the clueless lads with made-in-China plastic keys to paradise.

Such is the existential threat of Islam. It is a rigid authoritarian system with a stranglehold over many of the nearly one and half billion people under its command.

* Fatalism. One of the greatest subtle, yet important differences between the Muslim’s mindset and that of the people in the West is the extent to which Muslims are fatalistic. There is hardly a statement that a Muslim makes without being conditional—conditional on the will of Allah. “I shall see you tomorrow, Allah willing,” “You will make it home, Allah willing,” “Things will work out, Allah willing,” and on and on and on. To the Muslim, Allah is on the job—on every job. Allah, with his invisible mighty hand literally does and runs everything. “Allah’s hand is above all other hands,” adorns every imaginable space in Islamic lands—a telling point about the Muslim’s fatalism and submission to the omnipotent omnipresent hand. If something happens, it is Allah’s will. If it doesn’t, it is Allah’s will. The rank and file Muslim has little will of his own. It absolves him of any and all responsibility. This mentality is in stark contrast with the “take charge” and “can do” mentality characteristic of Americans and others.

* Psychological uniqueness. People as a group or as individuals are different and none are perfectly healthy psychologically. We all encounter a loose wheel or two as we travel the bumpy road of life. Yet, most people manage to stay on course most of the time, with perhaps a stop or two at a repair shop of one sort or another.

Most psychological disorders are exaggerations, deficits or surfeits of the generally accepted norm—whatever the norm may be. When caution, for instance, is practiced past suspicion, then we have paranoia; when reasonable fear is exercised beyond any justification, then there is phobia. The degree and severity of a condition frequently determine the presence or absence of psychopathology. Muslims share a common Islamic psychological milieu, they are on Islamic “diet,” whether they live in Islamic lands or in societies predominantly non-Islamic. The psychological condition of any Muslim group or individual is directly dependent on the kind and amount of Islamic diet they consume. The Islamic diet has numerous ingredients—some of which are wholesome, some of which are dangerously toxic, and some of which are between the two extremes.

Over the years, too many Islamic leaders have found it expedient to feed the masses mainly the toxic ingredients to further their own interests. Individuals and groups, for instance, have used the immense energizing power of hatred to rally the faithful; the cohesive force of polarization to create in-group solidarity; and, the great utility value of blaming others for their real and perceived misfortunes. Jews have been their favorite and handy scapegoats from day one. In this day, as true fascists like the Nazis, too many Muslims blame just about everything on the Jews.

Providing a comprehensive inventory of the psychological profile of the Muslims is beyond the scope of this article. Yet, there is no question that the psychological make up of a Muslim, depending on the extent of his Muslim-ness, is different from that of non-Muslims. This difference, often irreconcilable as things stand presently, is at the core of the clash of Islam with the West.

* Conclusion. Admittedly, the non-Islamic Western culture is no panacea. It has, however, one outstanding feature the Islamic lacks—it allows for liberty with all its attendants— good, bad, or indifferent. For those who have experienced liberty, no inducement is likely to make them give it up—particularly not the fictional promises of the Islamists that have failed in the past and are doomed to fail even more miserably in the future.

The best, yet difficult resolution of the conflict is to do what hundreds of thousands of Muslims have already done. They have abandoned the slaveholder Islam: they broke loose from the yoke of the exploitive clergy, renounced Islamofacism, purged the discriminatory and bizarre teachings in the Quran and the Hadith, and left the suffocating tent of dogmatic Islam for the life-giving expanse of liberty.

Within the emancipating and accommodating haven of liberty, those who wish to remain Muslim can retain and practice the good teachings of Islam but renounce intolerance, hatred and violence. It takes great effort and courage to ascend from the degrading pit of slavery to the mount of emancipation. Yet, it is both possible and exhilarating to do it, since many have done so successfully and happily. As more and more people leave the shackles of religious slavery, more and more will follow and the long-suffering Muslims, victimized by Islam itself for far too long, will be a free people in charge of their own life and destiny. It is a painful process of growing up, of asserting one’s coming of age, and marching lockstep with the free members of the human race.

Slavery of the mind is as evil as the slavery of the body. Islamofacism enslaves them both.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5784

:lolhit:

You can come up with something better than that, can't you googs? :-)

I think the author implies with his description of Muslims. His description purports to be a description of most muslims, when in fact he's describing fundamentalist muslims, a somewhat rarer breed.

Further, statements like "Betrayal, deception and outright lies are fully condoned in furthering the work of Islam", make it seem that the author has an ax to grind, and this statement just sounds a bit too sensational, "A less known fatwa of Khomeini during the last Iran-Iraq war led to the slaughter of thousands of Iranian children. Children, nearly all under 15 years of age, were given plastic keys to paradise as they were commanded by the fatwa of the imam to rush forward to clear minefields for the tanks to follow."

You can come up with something better than that, can't you googs? :-)



I honestly was Vile but I was at work and my coworker had to use the comp. So I used that as my reply. :p

* Patriarchy and authoritarianism.
* Blind obedience.
* Focus on goal.
* Fatalism.
* Psychological uniqueness.
Everything he said could be contributed to Christianity as well (besides maybe presbertarians). In fact all religious fanatics share these traits.

I also like how the author attemps to compare 'muslims' to 'the west'. apples and oranges. but lets take him seriously on this for a moment:

* Patriarchy and authoritarianism. - no women presidents, Bush 'right or wrong', destruction of the bill of rights, free speech zones.
* Blind obedience. - Secret arrests, prisons, evidence (if any).
* Focus on goal. - Mass murder for democracy, mass murder to stop mass murder.
* Fatalism. - America is better then every other country and we should force them to be 'better'.
* Psychological uniqueness. - mass media promoting greed, competitiveness, selfishness, and paranoia every day.

OK how about Christianity...

* Patriarchy and authoritarianism. - No women preists, southern baptists, GOD
* Blind obedience. - faith
* Focus on goal. - afterlife
* Fatalism. - god willing, god bless _____, god saved ______, god dammit
* Psychological uniqueness. - crusade, good v evil, 700 club

Frogger - you should be ashamed for posting this. You usually above idiotic, self important drival...

I also like the omission from every single person criticizing islamofascisism is the fact that the US is either responsible for thier coming to power or maintain friendly relations with such nations. Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia... Shit we just toppled THE secular government in the middle east.

Using children to clear minefields was reported during the Iraq/Iran War. It is not a new accusation.

Corporations use kids too (through the government) to do the dirty job, how many US kids (all these young soldiers) have already died so the Cartel of Republicans and Corporations get richer?.. around 2,500 and counting?

Using children to clear minefields was reported during the Iraq/Iran War. It is not a new accusation.

Perhaps so, but the accusation in the article you linked to sounds phony to me. I don't buy the bit about handing out fake "keys" to paradise, and as a practical matter, using people to clear minefields for tanks wouldn't be very useful since people will not detonate anti-tank mines.

Perhaps so, but the accusation in the article you linked to sounds phony to me. I don't buy the bit about handing out fake "keys" to paradise, and as a practical matter, using people to clear minefields for tanks wouldn't be very useful since people will not detonate anti-tank mines.

During the Iran-Iraq War, the Ayatollah Khomeini imported 500,000 small plastic keys from Taiwan. The trinkets were meant to be inspirational. After Iraq invaded in September 1980, it had quickly become clear that Iran's forces were no match for Saddam Hussein's professional, well-armed military. To compensate for their disadvantage, Khomeini sent Iranian children, some as young as twelve years old, to the front lines. There, they marched in formation across minefields toward the enemy, clearing a path with their bodies. Before every mission, one of the Taiwanese keys would be hung around each child's neck. It was supposed to open the gates to paradise for them.



http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060424&s=kuntzel042406

I think the author was very accurate until he started predicting the future where Muslims would leave their religion and become Westernized. The most enslaved and the first to want to leave Islam are the women, but there are reports all over the world of Muslim women being killed by their familys because they tried to leave Islam.

To me Islam favors the most radical and most dangerous. I read that Osama Bin Laden killed his radical leader because he wasn't radical enough. You could have moderate debaters up against radical killers. I would bet on the guy with the gun everytime over the guy with a good argument.

As proof, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and it seems to be getting more radical every day.

During the Iran-Iraq War, the Ayatollah Khomeini imported 500,000 small plastic keys from Taiwan. The trinkets were meant to be inspirational. After Iraq invaded in September 1980, it had quickly become clear that Iran's forces were no match for Saddam Hussein's professional, well-armed military. To compensate for their disadvantage, Khomeini sent Iranian children, some as young as twelve years old, to the front lines. There, they marched in formation across minefields toward the enemy, clearing a path with their bodies. Before every mission, one of the Taiwanese keys would be hung around each child's neck. It was supposed to open the gates to paradise for them.



http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060424&s=kuntzel042406

Slightly different than the one posted by Frogger.

Certain points of Frogger's article may be debated, but the underlying meaning, I believe, is clear. Religion, like a loaded gun, in the wrong hands is very dangerous to the one that it is pointed at.

During the Iran-Iraq War
Don't forget who supplied and backed this war all the way.

You guys have made some good comments, especially VilePagan and 500lbguerilla.

I find it funny, though, that such articles usually rely on events rather than readings from the religion's Holy Book, or good teaching.
In every religion you'll find a minority of extremists. It's sad to see how the media loves to glorify Islam's extremists while ignoring other religions and thereby contributing to its distorted image which was, ironically, done by the media in the first place. Focusing on Islam's true message is what should be done.

Innocent Sweety,

Focusing on the peaceful Moslems would be a lot easier if there weren't so many of the other kind. No other major religion has so many extremists. Maybe the peaceful Moslems still outnumber those who wish to convert the world by fire and the sword but they are very muted in their condemnation of their more violent brothers and sisters.

If the peaceful majority of Moslems wish to be taken seriously they had better start being more vocal in their condemnation of their violent co-religionists.

As average people, we're trying (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E79LSs_ZvCM). One of the reasons I post on this board is to show intellects such as yourself the other, much larger side of the Islamic coin.
How do you think that the media could shift its focus to the peaceful ones in our religion? It concentrates a lot on acts of violence, how would we be able to take their attention when it seems like all they want to do is show the distorted image of Islam?

It's a difficult situation. It causes a lot of stereotyping and racism; travelling is hard enough as it is without being labelled as a terrorist and being held at an airport for 26 hours and getting such bad treatment for no good reason other than the fact that you look Middle Eastern.

[QUOTE=Innocent Sweety][color=firebrick]As average people, we're trying (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E79LSs_ZvCM).
How do you think that the media could shift its focus to the peaceful ones in our religion? It concentrates a lot on acts of violence, how would we be able to take their attention when it seems like all they want to do is show the distorted image of Islam?[/QUOTE=
================================================== =====
If I might interject my opinion.
It would call for an obvious and complete separation from the extremists.
A beginning would be to isolate them. Cut them off from any support and shelter. Turn in the radicals that carry out the acts of violence.
I would think this could be accomplished anonymously.
Show the world that peaceful goals can be done by the power of the sheer numbers of people in the faith without violence. Be an example for extremists of all faiths.

Focusing on the peaceful Moslems would be a lot easier if there weren't so many of the other kind. No other major religion has so many extremists. Maybe the peaceful Moslems still outnumber those who wish to convert the world by fire and the sword but they are very muted in their condemnation of their more violent brothers and sisters.

If the peaceful majority of Moslems wish to be taken seriously they had better start being more vocal in their condemnation of their violent co-religionists.
sigh....how is it that the point is so far lost on you Frogger. The number of radical muslims (like radical christians etc...) is a minority. The media ignores the moderates because it doesn't sell papers and then people like you assume moderates are a minority because you don't see it in the paper....you starting to understand now? The media sensationalizes everything becacuse they rely on advertizing to make money. less readers means less money for advertizements. They also always pander to big business. big business is who buys lots of ads. Offend the business miss out on the ads. They also always pander to the status quo. "Anonymous government sources" are generally taken at their word while, 'a group of Iraqis' requires mounds of evidence.

The media always sensationalizes life and panders to powerful interests. Its how they run as a business.

Quarter Ton,

Sigh, right back at you.

It is a bit difficult to be enamored of the 'peaceful' Muslims when they do absolutely nothing to thwart their less peaceful coreligionists. How many 'peaceful' Muslims have you read about reporting the whereabouts of a bomb factory, turning in a terrorists, taking part in a mass demonstration agains terrorism?

The 'peaceful' Muslims give their tacit approval to the violent, non-peaceful Muslims whenever they remain silent in thye face of terrorism. They give their tacit approval whenever they do not report the terrorists among them to the proper authorities. They give their tacit approval whenever do not report the location of a terrorists arms cache.

Please don't fall for that 'peaceful' Musllim dodge. There may be a few 'peaceful' Muslims but the vast majority not only accept the terrorists among them but approve of them.

I will believe in the 'peaceful' Muslims when I see them doing something constructive to combat terrorism.

Maybe the peaceful Moslems still outnumber those who wish to convert the world by fire and the sword Maybe you are an idiot too - sure looks that way.

My guess would be that the peaceful Muslims outnumber the radicals by 99.999999999 to 1

Drew, any time you want to see an idiot there is no need to go further than your bathroom mirror.

If the peaceful Muslims were intent on stopping the terrorism caused by the non-peaceful Muslims it would have been stopped already. The peaceful Muslims form the support system for the terrorist. They are no better than the so called peaceful Christians who protected Eric Rudolph. By not turning him in they made themselves complicit in his actions. The peaceful Muslims become complicit in the acts of the terrorists when they allow them to live in their neighborhoods, overlook their terrorist acts, and fail to loudly condemn them.

Drew, any time you want to see an idiot there is no need to go further than your bathroom mirror. Perhaps, but looking in the bathroom mirror involves getting up out of my chair, typically it'll be far quicker to read your posts.

The peaceful Muslims become complicit in the acts of the terrorists when they allow them to live in their neighborhoods, overlook their terrorist acts, and fail to loudly condemn them.

How do you know they don't condemn them? Where exactly are these terrorist acts that they overlook? I imagine the number of actual muslims that know a "terrorist" are few and far between - ie out of billions of muslims - lets say 0.000000000001% of them actually know a terrorist.

Your previous post smacks of somebody who simply thinks all muslims are terrorists & those that are not are supporting them anyway. It's beyond stupid. Have some common sense for a change eh?

500lbguerilla said what I wanted to say about the media. Plus, the extremists are a minority.

About the peaceful Muslims stopping the radicals, haven't you heard of the statements made by leaders of Muslim countries? Haven't you seen the demonstrations against war and terrorism? It sure happens. Maybe it's because the media focuses on the violence rather than the peaceful things that Muslims are trying to do that's got you thinking the way that you're thinking.

I personally haven't met a terrorist yet. I've met a lot of Muslims though!

Then blame the media, not the people, since most muslim leaders are quite clear on their condemnation of extremists. But that is not what western opinion listen.

Oh yeah, I've seen massive demonstrations against terrorism by Muslims in the United States, Canada and Europe and by the Muslims in the Middle East and Asia. NOT!

It's time to stop the politically correct crap and call a spade a spade. The Muslim community has been most apparant by its silence when it comes to terrorist activity. A few people speak out half-heartedly but there is no groundswell of condemnation. The worldwide Muslim community is either actively in support of the terrorists (admittedly a minority) or is silent (the vast majority).

Please stop saying Muslims are against terrorism when it just isn't so. A few Muslims are against terrorism. Most either support it or just don't give a damn with those supporting it being in the majority. Were the Muslims to forcefully condemn terrorism by their co-religionists it would be much less. Yhey don't. It isn't.

Oh yeah, I've seen massive demonstrations against terrorism by Muslims in the United States, Canada and Europe and by the Muslims in the Middle East and Asia. NOT!

It's time to stop the politically correct crap and call a spade a spade. The Muslim community has been most apparant by its silence when it comes to terrorist activity. A few people speak out half-heartedly but there is no groundswell of condemnation. The worldwide Muslim community is either actively in support of the terrorists (admittedly a minority) or is silent (the vast majority).

Please stop saying Muslims are against terrorism when it just isn't so. A few Muslims are against terrorism. Most either support it or just don't give a damn with those supporting it being in the majority. Were the Muslims to forcefully condemn terrorism by their co-religionists it would be much less. Yhey don't. It isn't.

And you get your news from where? CNN? Fox?

It's common for islamic leaders to condemn terrorism. It just doesn't get reported very loudly.

I get my news from the New York Times, New York Newsday, The New York Post, The Drudge Report, Lucianne's blog, The Boston Globe, The Miami Herald, The South Florida Sun Sentinel, and assorted British and European newspapers.

I happen to be a news junkie.

Islamic leaders have condemned terrorism and there have been demonstrations against terrorism done by Muslims.

Sadly, the media doesn't report such stuff; it focuses on showing us as violent monsters when that just isn't the case. I guess that the media is to blame, though I'd love to see a change. I don't know how to change that though.

Btw, Frogger, take it from me: most Muslims are in fact against terrorism.

I get my news from the New York Times, New York Newsday, The New York Post, The Drudge Report, Lucianne's blog, The Boston Globe, The Miami Herald, The South Florida Sun Sentinel, and assorted British and European newspapers.

I happen to be a news junkie.

well maybe you should try actually reading them.

For example - the Muslim leaders in the UK loudly condemened the July7th bombings.

It's just common sense that out of Billions of Muslims only a handful are extremists - that's why they are called extremists.

There have been very few actual terrorist attacks on western soil

Twin Towers 1 & 2
London Bus Bombings
Madrid bombings

The London bombings in particular were homegrown.

And maybe you should blow it out your ass, Drew.

You have your opinion, I have mine. You don't like my opinion, tough shit.

Since you are so well read (yeah, right), how about finding all those demonstrations against terrorism by Muslims. There must be a plethora of them since the Muslims are so against terrorism.

You and Innocent Sweety can talk about the peace loving Muslims all you want. Just like Big Foot, they might exist but don't hold your breath until you see one.

And maybe you should blow it out your ass, Drew.

You have your opinion, I have mine. You don't like my opinion, tough shit.

Since you are so well read (yeah, right), how about finding all those demonstrations against terrorism by Muslims. There must be a plethora of them since the Muslims are so against terrorism.

You and Innocent Sweety can talk about the peace loving Muslims all you want. Just like Big Foot, they might exist but don't hold your breath until you see one.

there there.....tut tut tut......settle yourself down.

Find them yourself. You are such the news junkie....:rolleyes:

It seems that common sense & frogger are 2 incompatible things.

Oh yeah, I've seen massive demonstrations against terrorism by Muslims in the United States, Canada and Europe and by the Muslims in the Middle East and Asia. NOT!

I agree. If this were a Christian sect of terrorists, many on this board would be advocating burning all Chrisitians at the stake unless they spoke out in condemnation.

I keep waiting to hear huge groups of Muslims speak out. There definitely are "some" and they are very vocal and "they" ensure they get the press coverage. But they are a lone voice in the wilderness for the most part.

I think many are afraid to speak out as they would isolate themselves within their own communities and that in itself speaks volumes.

One such person who speaks out is that Lebanese psychiatrist. She addressed an Iman..just recently the tapes where big in Isreal. However he was quick to say that said since she no longer embraced Allah she was a heretic and should not be heard.

Always an answer, always a defense, never a condemnation. They make it very hard for their own people living in the West.

As long as they have their apologists in the West there will be no need for them to condemn terrorism or the terrorists.

Finding a Muslim speaking out forcefully against terrorism is like finding a rasher of bacon at a temple breakfast, possible but not likely.

As long as they have their apologists in the West there will be no need for them to condemn terrorism or the terrorists.

Finding a Muslim speaking out forcefully against terrorism is like finding a rasher of bacon at a temple breakfast, possible but not likely.

The really sad thing is that this guy is not alone when it comes to throwing common sense out of the window.

Frogger your views are nothing more than racism plain & simple.

I keep waiting to hear huge groups of Muslims speak out. There definitely are "some" and they are very vocal and "they" ensure they get the press coverage. But they are a lone voice in the wilderness for the most part.In the early 20th century you would have waited just as long to hear huge groups of white Christians condemning the KKK. Or more recently, huge groups of Italians condemning the Mafia, blacks condemning the Krips and Bloods, or Hindus condemning the LTTE. It's a characteristic common among all groups. The vast majority of people aren't politically active enough to take part in the overt condemnation that you wish to see, especially when it's a condemnation of people they have no connection to at all.

In the early 20th century you would have waited just as long to hear huge groups of white Christians condemning the KKK. Or more recently, huge groups of Italians condemning the Mafia, blacks condemning the Krips and Bloods, or Hindus condemning the LTTE. It's a characteristic common among all groups. The vast majority of people aren't politically active enough to take part in the overt condemnation that you wish to see, especially when it's a condemnation of people they have no connection to at all.

Those white Christians who failed to condemn the KKK were wrong and had more people said they were wrong the KKK would not have been as powerful as it was. Had Italian Americans turned in the local hoodlums the Mafia would have been only a localized phenomanum rather than a national crime syndicate. The fact that groups in the past failed to act responsibly does not excuse groups today from acting responsibly.

There is a difference here, Jester. Many of these people are not only not condemning the terrorists, they are aiding and abetting them. They aid them by not reporting to the authorities when they know terrorists are in their neighborhoods. They aid them by not reporting the locations of arms caches. They aid them by offering them food and hiding places. It is not simply a question of keeping quiet. It is a question of tacit approval of their activities.

Note to Drew:

I see you have found the tool of the poor poster. If you can't honestly debate a topic simply call your opponent a racist, or a homophobe or perhaps an anti-Semite. That is one of the oldest and least attractive debating tactics used on the internet.

The thing is, it is a tool usually used by those of a limited mental capacity, those who cannot debate honestly, those who are flummoxed when it comes to refuting others by using facts. You have just shown yourself to be one of those people, Drew.

Those white Christians who failed to condemn the KKK were wrong and had more people said they were wrong the KKK would not have been as powerful as it was. Had Italian Americans turned in the local hoodlums the Mafia would have been only a localized phenomanum rather than a national crime syndicate. The fact that groups in the past failed to act responsibly does not excuse groups today from acting responsibly.Absolutely; it doesn't excuse them. But it also doesn't make them different from other groups of people. They're just like any other members of our retarded species.

There is a difference here, Jester. Many of these people are not only not condemning the terrorists, they are aiding and abetting them. They aid them by not reporting to the authorities when they know terrorists are in their neighborhoods. They aid them by not reporting the locations of arms caches. They aid them by offering them food and hiding places. It is not simply a question of keeping quiet. It is a question of tacit approval of their activities.I'm sure a lot of those same people wouldn't report to the terrorists when American soldiers are in their neighborhoods, or the locations of American checkpoints. Silence does not equal approval; it's merely an indication of the unwillingness to be active and involved.

There is a difference here, Jester. Many of these people are not only not condemning the terrorists, they are aiding and abetting them.

How do you know this - where are your facts. Tell me who the terrorists even are. Don't mention Iraq - that has zero to do with terrorism.

They aid them by not reporting to the authorities when they know terrorists are in their neighborhoods. They aid them by not reporting the locations of arms caches. They aid them by offering them food and hiding places. It is not simply a question of keeping quiet. It is a question of tacit approval of their activities.

Again - where are you talking about, what country? What neighbourhoods? What arms caches? Everything you write seems like it comes from some novel. I don't think you have any idea what you are even talking about. It seems you have some mixed up kind of fantasy make believe notions running thru your head.

I see you have found the tool of the poor poster. If you can't honestly debate a topic simply call your opponent a racist You are a racist - you have stated clearly that you think the majority of muslims are terrorists / terrorist supporters. I find such a statement beyond the realms of belief.

The thing is, it is a tool usually used by those of a limited mental capacity I'll defer to your greater experience in such areas & take your word for it.

.

Finding a Muslim speaking out forcefully against terrorism is like finding a rasher of bacon at a temple breakfast, possible but not likely.


I expect you to believe something like that. When you have media bias there is nothing else to believe. But I'm going to go ahead and tell you you're flat out wrong. Imam Zaid Shakr, Sheik Hamza Yusuf, Imam Siraj Wahaj, Cat Stevens, Muhammad Ali, W.D Muhammad, Queen Rania, Imam Suhaib Webb, etc. condemn these terrorists. But like I said from before, I don't expect you to know that with the media bias in America. Before you post all your junk on these forums look for facts so you can base you opinions so they can have some validity.

You and Innocent Sweety can talk about the peace loving Muslims all you want. Just like Big Foot, they might exist but don't hold your breath until you see one.

You're looking at one ;) I guess they do exist don't they? Unless you think otherwise of me then I can't convince you, I can only say that they're out there and that I've met tons.

Btw, perhaps the reason you guys don't get to see Muslims speak out against terrorism when we see that in the Middle East is probably because its the Arabic news broadcasting channels that show that while the Western channels don't? I don't know I haven't lived in the West but I think that it might be safe to say that the Western media doesn't really focus on showing Muslims as good people. I think we've already covered why.

I don't think the media purposely shows muslims as bad people - it's just that muslims tend to create a lot of negative news that gets reported.

But, having said that, given there are 3 billion muslims in the world and the actual amount of terrorist attacks against the west you can count on one hand - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that it's a minority causing the problem & amongst 3 billion - almost all must be peaceful.

The ranting & raving over Danish cartoons doesn't help the perception of muslims, but ranting over the cartoons is not terrorism.

Those white Christians who failed to condemn the KKK were wrong and had more people said they were wrong the KKK would not have been as powerful as it was. Had Italian Americans turned in the local hoodlums the Mafia would have been only a localized phenomanum rather than a national crime syndicate. The fact that groups in the past failed to act responsibly does not excuse groups today from acting responsibly. Sure they are wrong but to proclaim them as guilty is just plain over-zealous and racist.

I love how frogger keeps screaming over and over again that "I don't see it, therefore it doesn't exist...I don't see it, therefore it doesn't exist...I don't see it, therefore it doesn't exist...I don't see it, therefore it doesn't exist...I don't see it, therefore it doesn't exist..."

Sorry frogger, your perception does not dictate reality. You need to get over it.

I get my news from the New York Times, New York Newsday, The New York Post, The Drudge Report, Lucianne's blog, The Boston Globe, The Miami Herald, The South Florida Sun Sentinel, and assorted British and European newspapers.

I happen to be a news junkie.

You do read a lot. Unfortunately, most of it only gives the "Western World" point of view. I doubt that the people in the Middle East have the same outlook on life that we, in the "Western World", have.

"Our" media continually exposes us to the extreme sides of Islam, but does very little to publicize the daily effort that many Islamic leaders are making to counteract that vision. If you scanned all those newspapers, rather than just skimmed them, then you will have read about such leaders, normally as a throwaway paragraph ... unfortunately.

If we truly want to know what the Arab, or Islamic, people think, then we need try to understand their culture, their thought processes and their religion. Perhaps talking to them, either personally, or via the Internet would be a good first step. We also need to read their newspapers, try Aljazeera, to further educate ourselves.

Aljazeera is a good example of the kind of media that the Middle East gets. This is the English link: http://english.aljazeera.net/

It's normal to get a "network error" message when viewing the site. Keep clicking on refresh, you'll be able to view the site.

What do you guys think about the statement by writer Soumaya Ghannoushi saying that "Israel has moved from a proxy at the service of British/American interest in the strategic Middle East to a definer of American policy itself."?

Oldtimer,

Agreed. The Arab/Muslim mindset is different from that of Westerners. Not all, but most Arabs live in a heirarchal world where they are used to being told what to do . They are members of tribes in which the Sheik has ultimate authority. They are members of a religion where Imams and Ayatolahs have the ultimate authority. They are members of families in which the father has the ultimate authority. They live in non-democratic countries where the leader is the ultimate authority.

Where Westerners are self actualed to a great extent, people in the Middle East are outer actuated. They are more used than Westerners to being told what to do.


Middle Easterners are also more focused on the afterlife than are Westerners. There are far fewer atheists and agnostics and those who are religious tend to be more religious than their Western counterparts.

This difference in mindset is part of the reason we are having such a difficult time winning the war against the terrorists. We are trying to win the hearts and minds of individual people when it is the hearts and minds of the people who actually make the decisions we should be trying to win. Instead of trying to get all the members of a tribe to individually come to a decision to not fight the West we should try to get their Sheiks to feel this way. We should try to get the religious leaders to feel this way. We should try to get the rulers of the countries to feel this way.

Middle Easterners are much more atuned to following the directions of those they view as their leaders than are Westerners and we should modify our efforts to reflect this.

This difference in mindset is part of the reason we are having such a difficult time winning the war against the terrorists. How do you reach the conclusion that we are having a hard time winning the war? There hasn't been a single terrorist attack in the US since 9/11 - 2001. I'd say by any measure we must be doing an excellent job and absolutely winning "the war on terror" so far.

We are trying to win the hearts and minds of individual people when it is the hearts and minds of the people who actually make the decisions we should be trying to win. Give me 1 single example of how we are trying to win over hearts & minds. Clearly we are doing everying in our power to lose the hearts & minds.

Instead of trying to get all the members of a tribe to individually come to a decision to not fight the West we should try to get their Sheiks to feel this way. We should try to get the religious leaders to feel this way. We should try to get the rulers of the countries to feel this way. Name me one tribe that is currently fighting the west in any tangible way

Once again - it's obvious that your mindset is based on media induced fairy tales rather than anything of actual substance.

I am not sure that citizens of the Middle East will ever completely trust Westerners. The history of occupation for exploitation goes back centuries.

Dan, lol, I think that what Soumaya said reflects how many people view the U.S.
Btw, I think that you're right about the trust issue; history does have a large influence.

Frogger, you have a very narrow view of the Middle Eastern world. While what you say can be true to some extent, you still don't hear people complaining do you? We don't follow our Sheikh blindly, he's good to his people and so we like him. Democracy isn't - like all Americans seem to think - the answer to everything. What's wrong with living in a heirarchy if the country's doing well and its people are happy? God asked Muslims to think and reflect on whether or not what's in front of them is really logical, and to take it from there. Contrary to Western common belief, we don't parrot what's told to us.

... Instead of trying to get all the members of a tribe to individually come to a decision to not fight the West we should try to get their Sheiks to feel this way. We should try to get the religious leaders to feel this way. We should try to get the rulers of the countries to feel this way.
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Never happen, there is power and profit in having a worthy advasary.
In Christianity the money maker has been fighting the devil.
In Islam, we are the devils.

In Islam, we are the devils.

How did you come to that conclusion?

How did you come to that conclusion?
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Islam distinguishes between Muslims and infidels.

Qur'an(9:5), "fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them."

Surah 8-6:"Against them(nonbelievers) make ready your strength to the utmost power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom you may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly."

To list a few directives.

=============================================
Islam distinguishes between Muslims and infidels.

Qur'an(9:5), "fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them."

This is the whole verse....

“A declaration of the dissolution of agreements from God and His messenger to the idolaters with whom you have made [no-war] agreements. Thus, you [O polytheists] may freely traverse in the land for four months, but know that you shall not escape God's judgment and that God shall surely humble the unbelievers. A proclamation [should be made] to these people from God and His messenger on the day of Hajj-e-Akbar , [declaring] that God and His messenger are no longer under any obligation toward these polytheists. If you repent, [O polytheists,] it shall be better for you but if you turn your backs [paying no heed], then know that you shall not be able to escape God's judgment. Give these rejecters the glad tidings of a painful punishment, except those polytheists who have not dishonored their treaties with you and have not aided anyone against you. With these, fulfill your treaties till the appointed term. Indeed, God loves the righteous. When the sacred months are over, slay the polytheists wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush for them.” ( Al-Taubah 9: 1 – 5)

It further says. “How can there be any responsibility of these agreements on God and His messenger, except those with whom you made agreements at the Sacred Mosque? Thus, so long as they uphold their part of the treaty, you should uphold yours. Indeed God loves the righteous.” ( Al-Taubah 9: 7)

Part of the verse you have written is given against those polytheists with whom the Muslims, under the leadership of the Prophet (pbuh), had entered into an agreement and who had disregarded this agreement and aided others against the Muslims. Obviously, these qualities cannot be generalized on all the polytheists of the world. :thumbs:


Surah 8-6:"Against them(nonbelievers) make ready your strength to the utmost power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom you may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly."


The same with this verse. In order to understand some verses in the Quran you need to know the historical context. ;)

Originally Posted by Frogger
Instead of trying to get all the members of a tribe to individually come to a decision to not fight the West we should try to get their Sheiks to feel this way. We should try to get the religious leaders to feel this way. We should try to get the rulers of the countries to feel this way.

Name me one tribe that is currently fighting the west in any tangible way


Drew, if you want to know more about the role of tribalism in the Middle East here are two sites.

http://www.ctc.usma.edu/aq/IZ-060316-01-Trans.pdf#search=%22islamic%20tribes%20fighting%20 West%22

http://rand.org/commentary/121204LAT.html

I didn't ask you to provide links explaining tribalism - I asked you to name one tribe actively fighting the west.

Nothing in Afghanistan or Iraq counts - nothing happening there is even remotely related to any single threat to the US. We are fighting there just because we have been for years now & trying to get those countries back on their feet. It's not a fight against "terrorism" Iraq in particular has never for even 1 second had anything to do with safety of US citizens or risks of terrorist attacks.

The problem is that the "war on terrorism" has morphed into stuff going on in Iraq when it never had anything to do with terrorism. The war in Iraq is NOT the war on terrorism.

slam distinguishes between Muslims and infidels. what like Jews and Gentiles, or Christians and Pagans?

selective quotation is fun!!!

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household." (Matthew 10:34-36 NASB)

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!" ... "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three."... (Luke 12:49,51-53 NASB)

"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26 NASB)

Thomas 16 : "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war. For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone."

Hey frogger (and anyone else for that matter), I found you a good video:

Who Hijacked my Religion?! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGKV-Y-Y_pk

what like Jews and Gentiles, or Christians and Pagans?
selective quotation is fun!!!
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Exactly, the point that I tried to make.
Most any religion can be used to further one's goals. There are people that live every moment by the quotations that they wish to remember and the interpretation that they wish to place upon them.
Christianity and Islam are ripe for exploitation with there many quotations.

Many people of a particular faith will not completely condemn those of their religion that use it for fanatical purposes. When people commit certain acts, in the name of god which may be repulsive to you and I, may not be repulsive in the eyes of certain believers.
Take the bombing of a gay church or abortion clinic, for example. Lives may be lost, but according to religious zelots murder was not commited. It was the work of god through the act of a person of faith. Covered by the old "god works in mysterious ways" thingy.

We sit here, in the safety and security of our imaginary little safe world that we have built around us, but believe me there are people in this world that would kill you just because you are you. It might be because you are white, black, male, female, or not of a particular faith or nationality. It is hard for some of us to face this fact because of our own frame of mind. It is hard to truly realize that there are others that can feel this strongly. Yet, this frame of mind exists.

I feel that in the coming years many people are in for a rude awakening. Things will change and they will find it hard to believe that they sat on their asses and did nothing about the hand writing on the wall.
I have already lived to see changes in America that I would not have thought the American people would have stood for. What fools we are.
Now I just sit back and watch...:corn:

The old testament was a God of anger and revenge while the New teatament is about the God of forgiveness and treating everyone with justice.

Isalm needs a New Testament.

Pssst..OldReb,all the passeges I quoted are in the new testament...and get this, Jesus said 'em.

Pssst..OldReb,all the passeges I quoted are in the new testament...and get this, Jesus said 'em.

One small victory for 500. However that doesn't change the reality of the world. Christians come out of church determined to do good works and win converts by example, showing that honesty and hard work makes life good.

I recall Muslims coming out of a Mosque in Afghanistan with hand grenades and throwing them in cars. Mosque are often teaching hate of Jews instead of love.

Anyway, I am not a Christian Muslim or a Jew but I admire them for their good works and feel the opposite for the Muslims for their fanatical hatred.

One small victory for 500. However that doesn't change the reality of the world. Christians come out of church determined to do good works and win converts by example, showing that honesty and hard work makes life good.

I recall Muslims coming out of a Mosque in Afghanistan with hand grenades and throwing them in cars. Mosque are often teaching hate of Jews instead of love.

Anyway, I am not a Christian Muslim or a Jew but I admire them for their good works and feel the opposite for the Muslims for their fanatical hatred.

There are fanatical muslims, just like there are fanatical Jews & Christians. Muslims tend to be located in more poor countries so the people are generally less educated & more prone to vocal demonstration, but that doesn't mean that Muslims are all fanatics. Most muslims certainly just want a quiet life to bring up their children just like the rest of us.

I see TV just like you, but I can intellectually comprehend that most Muslims are certainly not all like you see on TV. There are 3 billion of them - if they were all fanatical the world would be on fire. Do the math - it's really not any kind of rocket science.

I see TV just like you, but I can intellectually comprehend that most Muslims are certainly not all like you see on TV. There are 3 billion of them - if they were all fanatical the world would be on fire. Do the math - it's really not any kind of rocket science.

don't rush the growth of Muslim in the world, I know they have lots of babies.

Wow! I didn't know there was so many in Asia.

Distribution of Muslims
Africa 308,660,000 27.4%
Asia 778,362,000 69.1%
Europe 32,032,000 2.8%
Latin America 1,356,000 0.1%
North America 5,530,000 0.5%
Oceania 385,000 0.0%
World 1,126,325,000 100%

well - 1.26 billion (I thought it was 3 billion) - it's still a lot. It certainly doesn't change the analysis. My bet is a few thousand are actually terrorists.

assuming 3000 are terrorists that means that

.000002% of muslims are terrorists. But don't let that stop you from painting them all with the same brush....

assuming 3000 are terrorists that means that

.000002% of muslims are terrorists. But don't let that stop you from painting them all with the same brush....

How many Muslims are brainwashed into believeing that Israel must be destroyed? How many believe the USA is the big satan and must be destroyed or converted? How many get a chance to strap on a bomb or fly an airliner?

I recall Muslims coming out of a Mosque in Afghanistan with hand grenades and throwing them in cars.
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I can't help but wonder if we will see Christians coming out of churches and throwing gernades when America is further occupied by radical foreigners.
I say further occupied because it is reported that we have as many as 150,000 people a month entering the U.S. illegally. As many or more than we have troops in Iraq.
How many religious fanatics are in these numbers, we have no way of knowing. 1 per-cent, 2 per-cent, 4 per-cent ? Your guess is as good as mine, but it has been going on for a long time.

I believe Christians will have an opportunity to fight for their beliefs in times to come. Right here at home.
When this occurs the "turn the cheek", and "love thy neighbor" peaceful ways of the New Testament will be forgotten also.

I was changing stations on my radio and came across an Arab man speaking. Sorry, but I cannot begin to spell his name after hearing it.
He was asked a question about how he felt(from a religious standpoint) about the terrorist being funded with money from the illegal drug and diamond trade.
He said that the Muslim religion allowed anything to be done to fight the enemy. Anything.

You just have a biased view of islam old-reb.
Btw, no Muslim would ever agree to having a "new" testament for to muslims, unlike other religions, our book has never been altered and for that we are proud. We don't view it as angry, it's pretty peaceful; you should try reading the whole thing one day, no skipping verses ;)
You're focusing on the extremists, take a look around

googs, good job on the verses, I like how you explained them.

How many Muslims are brainwashed into believeing that Israel must be destroyed? How many believe the USA is the big satan and must be destroyed or converted? How many get a chance to strap on a bomb or fly an airliner?

When it comes to brainwashing - no religion has the upper hand. The amount of brainwashed Christians is equallly as sickening as brainwashed Muslims.

No matter what the religion - it relies on brainwashing.

Old-Reb - if you had been born in the ME you would be a muslim right now & proud of it
Inocent Sweety - if you had been born in the US you would be a christian now and be proud of it.

Old-Reb - if you had been born in the ME you would be a muslim right now & proud of it
and saying stuff like...
...That doesn't change the reality of the world. Muslims come out of mosque determined to do good works and win converts by example, showing that honesty and hard work makes life good.

I recall Jews coming out of a synagogs in Palestine with hand grenades and throwing them in cars. Synagoges are often teaching hate of Muslims instead of love.
See how fun and easy it is to be racist! You can take any phrase you want and with slight modification totally disregard the reality of the world and blame any ol group no matter how large on the actions of a few whakos...

Wow! I didn't know there was so many in Asia.
Yeah, that pesky Middle East is certainly not part of Asia...