I am 100 % sure Lebanon disaster with its numerous victims is due to America cynically posturing herself as major peacekeeper in the region. Paradoxically as it may seem but that might of Hezbollah and its capability for countervailing military power of the most formidable army in the Middle East – the one of Israel - is nothing but a consequent of foreign policy of the US that was about creating numerous hotbeds of tension in these latter years (like those in Afghanistan, Iraq, and soon in Georgia), and maintaining "frozen" conflicts (like in Chechnya) that later became sort of battle training ground for various islamic radical extremists and militants and others of that ilk who now fight for Hezbollah.

Relating Lebanon… It’s yet another training ground for USA. They say America had worked out a plan of attack on Hezbollah, though in line with Israel, long before Israeli soldiers were allegedly kidnapped. But that was a devilish plan with American hidden agenda there. I mean their grand idea was twofold. Firstly they meant to deprive Hezbollah of its rocket launchers as it was an immediate menace in case the US starts a military operation against Iran's nuclear sites. Secondly to approbate methods of opposing Hezbollah-like radical grouping via Israel’s participation.
As it usually is, Washington prefers to make somebody else pulling chestnuts out of the fire for them, rather than doing it on its own. Sure, this would save the White House from making a mistake or having casualties or suffer defeat (which happened to Israel). Now Washington acts as if it has nothing to do with war in Lebanon while Israel was left holding the baby. Well, being an ally of America is accompanied by risk to be played false with.

I don't see why you say it's America's hidden agenda.. Of course the US wants Hezbollah destroyed.

A) It's a terrorist organization
B) It's killed hundreds of Americans
C) It's a proxy for Iran & Syria

The US has made no secret it is absolutely against Hezbollah. I think your analysis may be correct & I see absolutely nothing wrong with the US helping Israel & being against Hez. Iran is an enemy of the US - be clear about that. There will be confict between the US and Iran and be certain the US will win.

When the US attacks Iran (which it most certainly will) - a weakened Hez is quite critical as Hez is how Iran will respond.

I think that what you propose has merit. Do not forget however that Israel has many, many financial backers in the States and they hold many purse strings in the USA.

Once the need for oil is gone at least as a car fuel, and it will happen, things will change greatly in the Middle East.

I am 100 % sure Lebanon disaster with its numerous victims is due to America cynically posturing herself as major peacekeeper in the region.

Yes, margine, the U.S. somehow forced Israel to GIVE UP the Southern Lebanon territory it had occupied so that Hezbollah could march in there and set up rocket launchers to harrass Israel and let's not forget the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, ALL this so the U.S. could give the greenlight to Israel to go and clobber southern Lebanon THEN the U.S. could step in as some kind of "cynical" peacekeeper.

Just what in the sam hell did you smoke to come up with a theory like that? Whatever is, you really need to put it down, seriously, dammit.


Relating Lebanon… It’s yet another training ground for USA. They say America had worked out a plan of attack on Hezbollah, though in line with Israel, long before Israeli soldiers were allegedly kidnapped. But that was a devilish plan with American hidden agenda there. I mean their grand idea was twofold. Firstly they meant to deprive Hezbollah of its rocket launchers as it was an immediate menace in case the US starts a military operation against Iran's nuclear sites.

First off, who is "they" that is saying all this stuff about America and its plans for South Lebanon, Israel and Hezbollah? Martians?

Deprive Hezbollah of rocket launchers? Gee, wonder why, seeing as how they are using said launchers to attack Israel, which ceded South Lebanon in the first place for "peace." Some peace, dammit.

As it usually is, Washington prefers to make somebody else pulling chestnuts out of the fire for them, rather than doing it on its own. Sure, this would save the White House from making a mistake or having casualties or suffer defeat (which happened to Israel). Now Washington acts as if it has nothing to do with war in Lebanon while Israel was left holding the baby. Well, being an ally of America is accompanied by risk to be played false with.

No Israel is perfectly capable of handling themselves, most of the time anyway. If you wish to know who is using proxies look to Iran and Syria, who are supplying Hezbollah with training and rockets and ammo and men to go and harrass Israel, dammit.

Since 1947 Israel has been the invader in the region!
As the invader they get what they deserve.
Dammit

If they get what they deserve, then by rights the Arabs get what they deserve too - so quit crying about Israel.

If they get what they deserve, then by rights the Arabs get what they deserve too - so quit crying about Israel.

I am not crying about Israel. I have no sympathy for them.
As if a new state was thrust apon me, as it was the arabs in the region, I would be angry and lobbing rockets at them. (As would you)
Israel should have been created, by the world community, somewhere else more friendly to their religious beliefs.

Since 1947 Israel has been the invader in the region!
As the invader they get what they deserve.
Dammit

Israel has claimed land they claim was theirs since before Chirst, dammit. Furthermore, the Jews took land that was very sparsely populated, only after the state of Israel was recongnized did the troubles start with the entire Middle East.

Israel should have been created, by the world community, somewhere else more friendly to their religious beliefs.

The thing about Jews is that they've been kicked out of country after country, nation after nation since the time of the Romans. After the Holocaust, the Jews wanted a country of their own, someplace they couldn't get kicked out of, or abused, or rounded up and slaughtered, if you were in THEIR shoes, you'd want the same thing, dammit.

"The thing about Jews is that they've been kicked out of country after country, nation after nation since the time of the Romans. After the Holocaust, the Jews wanted a country of their own, someplace they couldn't get kicked out of, or abused, or rounded up and slaughtered, if you were in THEIR shoes, you'd want the same thing, dammit."Quote

Since most of the jews came from Europe, Israel should have been created there. But then we would be discussing how the Dutch or Spanish should be more tolerant of their new neighbors and stop trying to drive them out.
Face it, the jews are a problem religous group. And, as you pointed out, they have been a been a thorn in mankinds side for a long time.(poor PR or what, I don't know?)
Israel would not exist with out american tax dollars and could not survive without this waste of tax dollars. Move them all here, the Middle East will be a quieter place once they are gone.

Since most of the jews came from Europe, Israel should have been created there. But then we would be discussing how the Dutch or Spanish should be more tolerant of their new neibhours and stop trying to drive them out.

The Jews have returned to their homeland, and I can't blame them. Israel has shown that it can live in peace with its neighbors, if only the neighbors will allow it too, dammit.

Face it, the jews are a problem religous group.

No, they've been the victim of scapegoating since the death of Christ. Your attitude is what makes the Jewish religion a "problem religious group."


Tell me, American, which religious group is responsible for bombing planes, flying planes into buildings, hijacking planes, beheading people on TV, executing defenseless aid workers, planting bombs on trains and in buildings, bombing embassies, throwing major fits when some cartoonist lampoons their messiah, rioting in France, using their own population as human shields when they go and harass neighboring countries, REFUSING to tolerate any other religion except their own and fomenting war against the West? I'll give you a hint, it ain't the Jews.

America has never indulged in any kind of government policy of harassing the Jews and America, in turn hasn't been harassed by jews, dammit.


Israel would not exist with out america tax dollars and could not survive without this waste of tax dollars.

Yet, we give as much money to the Palestinians and the Egyptians and God knows what other Muslim nation, dammit.

A) It's a terrorist organization
B) It's killed hundreds of Americans
C) It's a proxy for Iran & Syria
a. Only in so much as Israel is a terrorist organization.
b. Its destroyed lots of American government property (soldiers are considered property)
c. yup.

Yet, we give as much money to the Palestinians and the Egyptians and God knows what other Muslim nation, dammit.No the US does not. I don't understand why its so hard the STFU when you don't have a clue what you are talking about....good to know I can't believe a single word of your posts without links to back it up. You earned it.

And in fact Israel just DEMANDED more money from the US and they gave it to them. What kind of country DEMANDS aid? especially when they have a $1.5 billion surplus...

Guerilla,

Don't be too proud of yourself. Your mistaking bad syntax for ignorance, which is a mistake on your part.

The only part of my previous post that was wrong was the part of giving "as much" aid to other Middle Eastern countries as to Israel. Israel gets the most, but Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Iraq, Libya, Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinians either have recieved economic and military aid from the U.S or are recieving economic and military aid. So, I wouldn't go so far as to dismiss my entire post, dammit.


And in fact Israel just DEMANDED more money from the US and they gave it to them. What kind of country DEMANDS aid?

What kind of country DEMANDS aid from the U.S. Just about all of them, really. The U.N. whines and moans about more aid from the U.S., recently Bush came under fire for not giving enough aid to Africa to combat A.I.D.S.

Dammit.

http://www.hfienberg.com/kesher/mideast.htm

The Jews have returned to their homeland, and I can't blame them. Israel has shown that it can live in peace with its neighbors, if only the neighbors will allow it too, dammit.



No, they've been the victim of scapegoating since the death of Christ. Your attitude is what makes the Jewish religion a "problem religious group."


Tell me, American, which religious group is responsible for bombing planes, flying planes into buildings, hijacking planes, beheading people on TV, executing defenseless aid workers, planting bombs on trains and in buildings, bombing embassies, throwing major fits when some cartoonist lampoons their messiah, rioting in France, using their own population as human shields when they go and harass neighboring countries, REFUSING to tolerate any other religion except their own and fomenting war against the West? I'll give you a hint, it ain't the Jews.

America has never indulged in any kind of government policy of harassing the Jews and America, in turn hasn't been harassed by jews, dammit.




Yet, we give as much money to the Palestinians and the Egyptians and God knows what other Muslim nation, dammit.

Trust me, I do not condone Hezbollah's actions. But you have to see it from their eyes also, they feel wronged and justifiy their actions based on this perception.
The creation of Israel in the Middle East was a poor choice. Whether it is their homeland or not is a matter of perspective, lends great deal of power to native americans tho. I would bet most jews had never been to the "homeland" prior to 1947. And besides any religion should be able to practice its faith anywhere not dependant on a location. The oppertunity to to create a homeland presented itself after WW2 and the jews took advantage of the worlds sympathy. There was resistance right from day one, Israel was create by force of arms and probably will have to use arms to maintain it's existance.

Face it, the jews are a problem religous group. And, as you pointed out, they have been a been a thorn in mankinds side for a long timePutting recent politics and wars aside, even people who don't support Israel would have a problem with something this bigoted.
This goes beyond politics and removes your credibility on similar topics (unless I'm missing some larger point you were making).

Putting recent politics and wars aside, even people who don't support Israel would have a problem with something this bigoted.
This goes beyond politics and removes your credibility on similar topics (unless I'm missing some larger point you were making).

Quote from Darth Be'lal
"The thing about Jews is that they've been kicked out of country after country, nation after nation since the time of the Romans. After the Holocaust, the Jews wanted a country of their own, someplace they couldn't get kicked out of, or abused, or rounded up and slaughtered, if you were in THEIR shoes, you'd want the same thing, dammit."

I was agreeing with this statement, which is obviously true! As you must agree the common denominator here is the jewish religion and not getting along with others, is it their fault or the others? It seems to be consistant, so I draw the conclusion it is their religious beliefs as it seems to me that they are no different from you and me. Take away the jewish religion and a lot of suffering and death in the past, present and future would disappear.
Why are they in constant turmoil over the ages? What about them causes continual grief for them?

As far as being a bigot, no. Neither a racist or anti semite, but when talking about jews or Israel and not agreeing with them these handles are quick to fly!

It is all about believing in their "self titled" (mark these words), again "self titled" CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD, just like this hypocrite idiot that wants to rule all countries in the world, and deliver government from the hands of the State (which means that it is supposed to belong to all the people in the country) to the hands of those few bastards called Corporations.

1. It seems to be consistant, so I draw the conclusion it is their religious beliefs as it seems to me that they are no different from you and me.
2. Take away the jewish religion and a lot of suffering and death in the past, present and future would disappear.
3. Why are they in constant turmoil over the ages? What about them causes continual grief for them?
4. ...but when talking about jews or Israel and not agreeing with them these handles are quick to fly!1. They're no different from you and me, except for the fact that they are "a thorn in mankinds side for a long time."
That's the only tiny difference.

2. Yeah, most of it their own.
When Jewish schtetls existed in the far reaches of Russia, the authorities had to travel many miles in their direction to destroy them. Why go to that effort if some self contained group of people, with whom you had no contact, simply existed there? Because of all the suffering and death they were causing?

3. To go to my above example - What is it about them that caused that? Or the holocaust?
Why don't you question the purveyors of this continual grief rather than the victims of it?

4. "Blacks have been a thorn in the side of civilization for a long time."
If I made that statement people would say I was anti-black, bigoted, racist, etc. So reacting to such things is not unique to Jews. But it's really funny that you would think that it is.
If on the one hand you say "they are no different from you and me" then why do you hold them to a different standard than all other groups? I mean, you don't even think other groups would react to that stuff. Do Jews over-react in your opinion?
Oh no, that's right, "they are no different from you and me".
Except in a whole lot of ways.

1. They're no different from you and me, except for the fact that they are "a thorn in mankinds side for a long time."
That's the only tiny difference.

2. Yeah, most of it their own.
When Jewish schtetls existed in the far reaches of Russia, the authorities had to travel many miles in their direction to destroy them. Why go to that effort if some self contained group of people, with whom you had no contact, simply existed there? Because of all the suffering and death they were causing?

3. To go to my above example - What is it about them that caused that? Or the holocaust?
Why don't you question the purveyors of this continual grief rather than the victims of it?

4. "Blacks have been a thorn in the side of civilization for a long time."
If I made that statement people would say I was anti-black, bigoted, racist, etc. So reacting to such things is not unique to Jews. But it's really funny that you would think that it is.
If on the one hand you say "they are no different from you and me" then why do you hold them to a different standard than all other groups? I mean, you don't even think other groups would react to that stuff. Do Jews over-react in your opinion?
Oh no, that's right, "they are no different from you and me".
Except in a whole lot of ways.

Let me be a little clearer and you a little less defensive.
1. People have seen them as a "a thorn in mankinds side for a long time." , my words, but as history shows that has been the prevailing perception for some reason.

2. My point!!

3.My question is why are they the victims, what about them has made people react negitvely towards them ? I don't see the reason.

4. I hold them to no different standard. In my opinion the the creation of Israel was an over reaction. How many religious groups have had nations created for them.
"Except in a whole lot of ways." In what ways? Please explain the differance to me.

1. In my opinion the the creation of Israel was an over reaction. How many religious groups have had nations created for them.
2. "Except in a whole lot of ways." In what ways? Please explain the differance to me.1. Perhaps the creation of Israel was unprecedented in modern history, but so were the events of the 10 years prior to its creation.
Are you suggesting that anything can be considered an overreaction to the holocaust?

2. Your words say "They're no different from you and me" (which is bizarre on its own), but then you also say:
"the jews are a problem religous group"
"they have been a been a thorn in mankinds side for a long time"
"... the Middle East will be a quieter place once they are gone."

They kind of do sound a "little different from you and me".

It is all about believing in their "self titled" (mark these words), again "self titled" CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD,What is all about believing this?

I am not crying about Israel. I have no sympathy for them.
As if a new state was thrust apon me, as it was the arabs in the region, I would be angry and lobbing rockets at them. (As would you)
Israel should have been created, by the world community, somewhere else more friendly to their religious beliefs.

Well it seems that the basis of your argument is Israel should not even exist. Wonder where we've heard that argument before.

Israel does exist - and the sooner you pull your head of your ass the easier it will be for you to comprehend the situation.

...it's attitudes like yours that are fundamentally at the root of all the death in the middle east.

What is all about believing this? If you are part of a group and write a book that around two thousand million people read and more or less go by it, and believe the same kind of crap that your group of people are "the chosen people of God" then many would think that it is right to do whatever wrong your people do to your neighbors because you are a "especial kind of people", the rest of us are not, we are simply second class children for God.
You probably remember that guy who once said: "They have attacked the Nation of God" just to create more fury from the religious fanatics that also believe he is a Godsend deity.

Religion is as bad a weapon for the Jews as it is for the Muslims or for any other group of people.

Well it seems that the basis of your argument is Israel should not even exist. Wonder where we've heard that argument before.

Israel does exist - and the sooner you pull your head of your ass the easier it will be for you to comprehend the situation.

...it's attitudes like yours that are fundamentally at the root of all the death in the middle east.

The basis of my argument is that Israel should not exist in the middle east! Create the state where they are welcome. Although I doubt that people you would be very accommadating to some new neibhours.
Israel does exist in the wrong neibhourhood, the violence will continue and the sooner you pull your head out of your ass you will realize the error of the location! grrrh
See the attached...smiles

1. Perhaps the creation of Israel was unprecedented in modern history, but so were the events of the 10 years prior to its creation.
Are you suggesting that anything can be considered an overreaction to the holocaust?

2. Your words say "They're no different from you and me" (which is bizarre on its own), but then you also say:
"the jews are a problem religous group"
"they have been a been a thorn in mankinds side for a long time"
"... the Middle East will be a quieter place once they are gone."

They kind of do sound a "little different from you and me".

1. Two wrongs do not make a right.
2. As human beings they are no different, its religion that makes us different and religion of most kinds seems to cause alot of problems.

"... the Middle East will be a quieter place once they are gone." OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST, not gone gone!

If you are part of a group and write a book that around two thousand million people read and more or less go by it, and believe the same kind of crap that your group of people are "the chosen people of God" then many would think that it is right to do whatever wrong your people do to your neighbors because you are a "especial kind of people", the rest of us are not, we are simply second class children for God. [/B]Your name is a region in France, and I don't know where on earth your location is, so I won't criticize your English. You probably speak two languages, which is more than I can say for myself.

Having said that, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

1. Two wrongs do not make a right.
2. As human beings they are no different, its religion that makes us different and religion of most kinds seems to cause alot of problems.
3. "... the Middle East will be a quieter place once they are gone."
1. The holocaust is wrong. Israel's existence is wrong.
In your opinion, is there any difference in the intensity of these two wrongs?

2. Religion is part of what make people what they are. That's a real avoidance tactic.

3. The Middle East would be a "quieter place" if any number of things were changed. Do you think it would be quieter if militant muslims were gone?
Who's worse, militant muslims or Israel?

1. The holocaust is wrong. Israel's existence is wrong.
In your opinion, is there any difference in the intensity of these two wrongs?

2. Religion is part of what make people what they are. That's a real avoidance tactic.

3. The Middle East would be a "quieter place" if any number of things were changed. Do you think it would be quieter if militant muslims were gone?
Who's worse, militant muslims or Israel?

1. Israels choice of location, not creation was wrong.

2.Religion is why many people die, are killed or persicuted. Try and avoid the fact that this is a clash of religious beliefs and the(for lack of a better word) theft of land.

3.I believe the Muslims were there long before Israel. Who's worse to you, the invader of Palistine(1947) or the defender. The Jews took this land by force and then want the displaced owners to be happy with this. Come on, put yourself as a palistinian in 1947!

Come on, put yourself as a palistinian in 1947!
Is that before Black September?
Is that before Jordan drove them out?

"Next to the Jews, we hate Palestinians most" - King Fahd.

American, I just want to leave you with this thought.
You said in a prior post that what makes Jews different is that there is a much stronger reaction if they are criticized.
More accurately, we are more comfortable criticizing them. It's safer.

You claim that when you said "the jews are a thorn in the side of civilization" you meant that to mean that they are mistreated by others through no fault of their own.
Well, blacks were mistreated in this country. Would you ever consider saying that "blacks are a thorn in the side of America"?

Honestly, I don't think you would.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
That they feel special, better than those non Jews, and that they think that the land the occupy belongs to them, because that land was given to them by "GOD" for being the "chosen people".

It is all about believing in their "self titled" (mark these words), again "self titled" CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD, just like this hypocrite idiot that wants to rule all countries in the world, and deliver government from the hands of the State (which means that it is supposed to belong to all the people in the country) to the hands of those few bastards called Corporations.

Yes the Christian bible says Jews are the chosen people. The Torah also says that. So...are you saying that because they say they are The Chosen People that justifies their torture over the centuries. Does that somehow give people license to kill them? I am a little confused by your post.

Yes the Christian bible says Jews are the chosen people. The Torah also says that. So...are you saying that because they say they are The Chosen People that justifies their torture over the centuries. Does that somehow give people license to kill them? I am a little confused by your post.

No, totally the opposite, that because they the self-titled "chosen people of God" can do what they do today with the Lebanese and the Palestinians. And that one of the many religious books in the world, the Bible (written by Jews), says they are the "chosen people", doesn't make it true in anyway.

Once the need for oil is gone at least as a car fuel, and it will happen, things will change greatly in the Middle East.

LOL.

Once the insatiable need for oil is no longer confronting us, the U.S. will drop Israel (from the role it currently occupies; a global beggar looking for an umpteen billion dollar yearly handout) like a bad habit.

American, I just want to leave you with this thought.
You said in a prior post that what makes Jews different is that there is a much stronger reaction if they are criticized.
More accurately, we are more comfortable criticizing them. It's safer.

You have it exactly backwards.

No matter how many people --Palestinians, Lebanese or others-- that Israel murders, they are guaranteed to be free of criticism from the world community.

Around the entire planet, anyone with the audacity to point out the heinous actions of Israel is instantly dismissed as an evil ---- "anti-Semite".

Never in the history of mankind has a people had a more powerful and unassailable --***Since we were persecuted in the past, NO ONE can criticize us in any way, no matter WHAT we do!!***-- card than the Jews possess.

Around the entire planet, anyone with the audacity to point out the heinous actions of Israel is instantly dismissed as an evil ---- "anti-Semite".
So true. I was even called a Neo-Nazi.

So true. I was even called a Neo-Nazi.

:hitout:

You have it exactly backwards.

No matter how many people --Palestinians, Lebanese or others-- that Israel murders, they are guaranteed to be free of criticism from the world community.
My last posts had nothing to do with Israel. I was talking about Jews.
For some reason you can't seperate the two in your mind.
There is a difference, you know.

Cro, as Sal said, "chosen people" is a phrase used by three of the world's great religions to describe the Jews. It's hard to tell what you meant, but I think you were suggesting that it is their believing this that annoys you so.

Some Christians believe that Jews can't be "saved" and also don't believe that Mohammed is a prophet. So Christians believe those other two religions are not correct.

Without using the phrase, every religion thinks they are the chosen people. Does that bother you, or do you just not like when people say it?

I just think that believing that gives them one more reason to go to war, and act against their neighbors that way they do. Unfortunately it's not just them believing that something in their religion calls people to war, civilization instead of going forward seems to be going the other way because of religion. Thought we had gone beyond that.
"Oh, and mighty dollar is some other people's religion too".

Cro, you are making a common error. Israel and Jews are two different discussions.
If Israel is surrounded with the enemy closing in, as in 1967, they aren't fighting based on religion.

Please stop confusing a religion with a nation.

Please stop confusing a religion with a nation.kind of hard when you have a theocracy, where non-jews and arabs are second class citizens. Especially when said country screams 'anti-semites' at anyone who dares question their apartied state.

The Torah says Israel belongs to the sons of abraham. The jews, christians and muslims are all sons of abraham.

kind of hard when you have a theocracy, where non-jews and arabs are second class citizens. Especially when said country screams 'anti-semites' at anyone who dares question their apartied state.
The Torah says Israel belongs to the sons of abraham. The jews, christians and muslims are all sons of abraham.

I don't exactly remember where I read, or if I was told that: Abraham's first son Ismael is the father of all Arabs, and Isaac (or however it is written in English) the father of all Jews. Some of you may have read or heard the same, please let me know if so. And anyway, Abraham seems then to be the father of all three religions.
And if we all come from the same GOD, then all of us are their children, with no difference, "no chosen ones".