If god really exists then why is there death and stuff in the world :confused:

Welcome Question Mark!

Assuming a creator god exists then the answer could be...


he's evil
he's insane
he's incompetent
he died

We die so we can ultimately know the truth. If we deny ourselves the truth in life we know it in death.
If we let the truth find us in life we are rewarded with it in death with a second life.
The most important question someone should ask, is why we have emotions?

let me just ask this.. who are YOU to think God has to answer to YOU?

are you a big thing?

Where did this ego come from?

let me just ask this.. who are YOU to think God has to answer to YOU?

He never said that God has to answer to him. He was asking a very reasonable question.

are you a big thing?

Where did this ego come from?
What ego? Where is he bolstering his ego?

Do you consider asking a question about god to be egomaniacal?... why?

The most important question someone should ask, is why we have emotions?I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with this thread, Inviolable. But as you ask I consider emotions to be the psychological analogue to physical sensations such as pain or pleasure, and just as essential for survival. (Mind you, Mr Spock always seemed to get along just fine ;) )

let me just ask this.. who are YOU to think God has to answer to YOU?

are you a big thing?

Where did this ego come from?Oh dear. Don't some people get agitated when unable to answer a simple question.

Are you utterly unmoved by the suffering and death in the world, Decka? Are you really so incensed that someone should ask how it is compatible with an all-loving super-deity?

let me just ask this.. who are YOU to think God has to answer to YOU?

are you a big thing?

Where did this ego come from?
Defensive much? Go check out the "Should pot be legal?" thread, Decka, you could use some of that shit.

let me just ask this.. who are YOU to think God has to answer to YOU?

are you a big thing?

Where did this ego come from?
I think QM was clearly asking the others here in the forum that question. Now, with that in mind, how would you answer his question?

If god really exists then why is there death and stuff in the world :confused:

First, before we get into this, are you suggesting that death and "stuff" are wrong? And what do you mean by "stuff"?

First, before we get into this, are you suggesting that death and "stuff" are wrong? And what do you mean by "stuff"?I'd imagine by "death and stuff" he means the state of the world - suffering, pain, loss, cruelty and the like. I think we can all agree that such things are unpleasant are something we would wish to avoid.

Would I be totally off-mark if I suggest you're leading to "by what standard can you say these things are wrong", stark?

I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with this thread, Inviolable. But as you ask I consider emotions to be the psychological analogue to physical sensations such as pain or pleasure, and just as essential for survival. (Mind you, Mr Spock always seemed to get along just fine ;) )


That was going to be my point as well.

With out emotions we wouldnt even care who dies. There would be no motivation. We would have reasons to do things but if we were completely void of emotions the world would quite possibly be even worse then it is now.

The homeless would stay homeless, the starving would stay starving and so on.
No one would care enough to do anything about it.
I have to say there are starving people in the world today and there are homeless people as well. However there are people who care about it and do try to help so it isnt as bad as it could be.

Love is the source of happieness and we all want to be nothing more then happy. With out it we wouldnt understand the pain and suffering people go through. We wouldnt feel sympathy. Which in itself makes us happy for helping others.

If god really exists then why is there death and stuff in the world :confused:
================================================== =

So many gods, so many religions. Each faith may have its own answer as to why its god sits on his ass and allows the suffering and pain of the world.
After all, not to have a justification would weaken the faith.
Some say that you suffer in this life to live in splendor later. That outlook keeps the masses toiling in the fields or dieing for the cause. Holds down the anarchy.

I really doubt that a god-being would be very concerned. How often do you consider the personal comfort of creatures in the insect world?

I think a big problem is most Christians' insistence that god has to be Good and all-loving. If there was no such assumption to start with, or if you go one step further and state that there is a god but god is necessarily not Good and all-loving, instead is simply powerful, then QM wouldn't need to ask his question.

Another way to look at the problem is simply to discuss what it means to have a god that is "Good". Does it actually require that he ensures there be no suffering? Well, if a fairly nice person is given the power to be god, it seems like that's what that person would do and would think is the "good" thing to do. So either god is not good or god is good "by default", making moral arguments meaningless (ie. whatever god does, it will be defined as good simply by virtue of it being done by god).

Omnipotent, omniscient and just sittin around over the ages... God must be so bored

If god really exists then why is there death and stuff in the world :confused:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil . I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

At least in one portion of that tremendous compendium of fables and fairy tales known as *the Bible*, they found a place to admit that this "creator" entity also creates evil.

I am the truth, and the light.
Come unto me, sons and daughters, and admit that you are willing to bend your knee before me.

I am Senor Sparquelito, the holy and also equally-unholy God of your current existence.
Kneel before me. Genuflect, you formerly Catholic/pseudo-Christian/Protestant/Judeo-Jewish/Muslim/Extremist/Radical-Extremist-Muslim/Lutheran/Church of the Latter-Day-Saints/non-denominational/-dumbshit bastards.

Who the hell are you to question my authority??

I say again; who the hell are you to question me?

Bend your knee before me.
Do you hear me?

I am your GOD.
This internet forum is just as valid as any other form of written or oral communication, (including the Bible and the Quaran) and I say in a most emphatic voice, KNEEL BEFORE ME.

I'm serious.
Get right with the program, or some serious shit is going to go down.

Don't make be get all Biblical on your ass.

That's the same question I asked my mom when I was 6.

We brought evil upon ourselves... All started in the garden of Eden.

We brought evil upon ourselves... All started in the garden of Eden.
Not according to the Bible. This was posted just a couple posts ago.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Not according to the Bible. This was posted just a couple posts ago.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

If there is one thing a Christian fundamentalist hates (well, besides women, blacks, homerseckshulls and liberals) it is being hoisted on his own petard.

_______________________________________

"Now to the root of the matter. The great unmentionable evil at the center of American culture is monotheism. From a barbaric
Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three anti-human religions have evolved---Judaism,Christianity and Islam. These are
the sky-god religions. They are,literally, patriarchal---God is the omnipotent father---hence the loathing of women for 2000 years in
those countries afflicted by the sky-god and his earthly male delegates. The sky-god is a jealous god, of course. He requires
total obedience from everyone on Earth, as he is in place not just for one tribe, but for all creation. Those who would reject him
must be converted or killed for their own good. Ultimately, totalitarianism is the only sort of politics that can
truly serve the sky-god's purpose. Any movement of a liberal nature endangers his authority and that of his delegates on earth.
One God, one King, one master in the factory, one father-leader in the family at home."______Gore Vidal

Welcome alwaysRight!

Great sig LOL.

If god really exists then why is there death and stuff in the world :confused:

My guess is it is his hobby, torment us! Or doesn't exist, the only people I know of who it talks to are institutionalized.

Let me just ask this.. who are YOU to think God has to answer to YOU?
I believe that if you are in the right state of mind and heart (difficult to accomplish, because if you think about being that way, then you probably aren't), you might get an answer, and how many times you might have gotten an answer, but then you probably thought: What the hell was that? And lost your chance. No one has to be or have any especial attribute to get an answer, if from the very beginning your are denying a probable answer, then you won't get it.

Death is part of life because man has only a finite time to spend on earth. For those who believe in God death to this life will open us to either a new life on earth or a new life in heaven.

As for the other stuff, God has given man free will and with free will man sometimes makes lousy choices. God does not make man commit crime or hurt others. That is something humans do. God could stop it but then man would be little better than robots and that does not seem to be what God wants.

Most of those who are greatly concerned about why this world is not perfect see this world as our only ride on the merry go round. They feel that when the music stops the ride is over so we had better get as much fun out of the ride as possible. Religious people see the merry go round as only a short ride that is part of an eternity. The ride need not be perfect because perfection awaits us.

For those who believe in God death to this life will open us to either a new life on earth or a new life in heaven.Are you a Jehovah's Witness, Frogger?

Are you a Jehovah's Witness, Frogger?

He says he is Lutheran ... (Protestant).

He says he is Lutheran ... (Protestant).Ok, thanks. It's just I thought the notion of most of the saved living forever on paradise Earth while a select elite rule over them from heaven was an exclusively JW belief. I guess I'll just wait on and see what Frogger says.

Ok, thanks. It's just I thought the notion of most of the saved living forever on paradise Earth while a select elite rule over them from heaven was an exclusively JW belief. I guess I'll just wait on and see what Frogger says.

What ever made you think that is what I believe? If that is what you got from my post(s) I am not making myself clear enough.

I do not believe that the saved will live forever on paradise earth while a select elite rule over them from heaven. I believe that our life on earth is only a small portion of our total existence. I believe that once we die we are judged by God and spend eternity either in His presence or removed from it. In other words, either in heaven or in hell.

It was this that confused me.

For those who believe in God death to this life will open us to either a new life on earth or a new life in heaven. I didn't think you are a JW hence my surprise and my request for clarification.

Apologies if this came across badly, it was genuine confusion on my part.

I was trying to be careful to not have a Christian perspective to the post, hence the new life on earth which was meant to be a reference to those who believe in reincarnation. Sorry if I was unclear.

Ah ok, thanks.

Pedantic? Moi? :thumbs:

Ok, thanks. It's just I thought the notion of most of the saved living forever on paradise Earth while a select elite rule over them from heaven was an exclusively JW belief. I guess I'll just wait on and see what Frogger says.

I think hes talking about the Rapture. Its formulated differently between Catholics and Protestants.
To a Protestant the Rapture happens when Jesus returns and they are all summoned up to be with Jesus.
To a Catholic Jesus just returns.

I could give you an exact definition of both if you like?
However Frogger is Lutheran and kind of balanaces somewhere inbetween the two.
The RCC acknowledges the Nicean Creed and any church that accepts the creed can fall under Catholic law and be known as a catholic with a small "c".

Something I found out not to long ago on these forums while talking with Frogger. I have researched it sense then.

However Frogger is Lutheran and kind of balanaces somewhere inbetween the two.


Of course there are three different kinds of Lutherans, two of which are no much like the third.

Lex Luthor is the worst of the lot.
Damn those Luthorans, and their plot to kill Superman.

(Wait. Did you say Luthorans or Lutherans?)

Shoot. This gets more confusing by the day.
:(

back to the original thread:

God has alot to answer for?

God has NOTHING to answer for.. if it weren't for God you wouldnt be alive right now... Death and suffering are all a part of our lives (in my opinion) to test our will, to see how we react, im sure God's knowledge is FAR beyond any of our own.. and that includes any egotistical liberals who HATE to be told so... :rolleyes:

I suggest you get the the problem that is REALLY bothering you and stop trying to blame God...

Humility is a tough concept for humans to grasp.. ESPECIALLY in today's society.. where you are told, taught, and trained to think of YOURSELF as a "god". Its a farce and its pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. There's so much competitive hatred in people today.. i always here "how dare she say that about me" or "That guy just bumped me who the F does he think he is"... why can't you just take things for what they are.. and not try to make a soap opera out of it? You want to make humanity better? Take away Music Videos, Soap Operas, and Reality TV.. and people will stop TRYING to be LIKE something and just be themselves...

We should all realize that we aren't much when it comes to the grand scheme of things... God doesn't have to answer anything of ours.. so just be glad that he DOES listen and answers prayer.. because if he didn't we'd all be F'd...

back to the original thread:

God has alot to answer for?

God has NOTHING to answer for.. if it weren't for God you wouldnt be alive right now... Death and suffering are all a part of our lives (in my opinion) to test our will, to see how we react, im sure God's knowledge is FAR beyond any of our own.. and that includes any egotistical liberals who HATE to be told so... :rolleyes:

I suggest you get the the problem that is REALLY bothering you and stop trying to blame God...

Humility is a tough concept for humans to grasp.. ESPECIALLY in today's society.. where you are told, taught, and trained to think of YOURSELF as a "god". Its a farce and its pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. There's so much competitive hatred in people today.. i always here "how dare she say that about me" or "That guy just bumped me who the F does he think he is"... why can't you just take things for what they are.. and not try to make a soap opera out of it? You want to make humanity better? Take away Music Videos, Soap Operas, and Reality TV.. and people will stop TRYING to be LIKE something and just be themselves...

We should all realize that we aren't much when it comes to the grand scheme of things... God doesn't have to answer anything of ours.. so just be glad that he DOES listen and answers prayer.. because if he didn't we'd all be F'd...
I'll buy all that, if we take it as given that the Bible is fact. Granted, not a given that Occam's Razor suggests we should take, but hypothetically, yes, we would owe God much more than God would owe us.

I'd imagine by "death and stuff" he means the state of the world - suffering, pain, loss, cruelty and the like. I think we can all agree that such things are unpleasant are something we would wish to avoid.

Would I be totally off-mark if I suggest you're leading to "by what standard can you say these things are wrong", stark?

Bingo on the argument from morality, Blob that's exactly where I was headed. I've got to ask though, is it a bad argument?
I'm not suggesting that morality exists therefore God has to exist, I'm saying God makes sense of morality. Now I understand that some would disagree, but to suggest that since evil exist God doesn't is not reasonable.
I noticed that you gave Question Mark some reasons an existing God would allow evil and suffering:
Assuming a creator god exists then the answer could be...


he's evil
he's insane
he's incompetent
he died


If I could just add...

He's all powerful, all knowing, righteous, pure, and all loving. He's not working for our pleasure, but for our salvation, in a mode of operation that we cannot understand. His goal; bringing as many people into The Kingdom as possible without contradicting his nature.

If I could just add...

He's all powerful, all knowing, righteous, pure, and all loving. He's not working for our pleasure, but for our salvation, in a mode of operation that we cannot understand. His goal; bringing as many people into The Kingdom as possible without contradicting his nature.

How do we know that?

btw, if he's all loving, he sure shows it in pretty messed up ways.

Would you give me an example of a messed up way?

If god really exists then why is there death and stuff in the world :confused:

I've lost count of how many different times and places that I've either heard or read that question.

The best answers I've heard are (1) God does not exist and (2) Because
He gave us free will. I prefer the free will response, knowing that many others will choose the other.

Since we have free will, we can choose to do anything we like. Like loving, caring parents God has established rules, rules that, if we follow them, will result in us going to a better life hereafter. Note that if you choose to believe God does not exist, then I assume you will automatically disagree with me on this.
Over the millennia, societies have made their own rules, evolving into the world as it is today. The results of these rules can be seen every day. Many of us lead honest hard-working, or what we call "good" lives. Yet as posed in the question "stuff" happens. Perhaps it's because we are not following God's rules.

An obvious next question is "What are God's rules?" I wish I knew. There are many different religions and beliefs, all with some claims or another. However, there is a common thread running most of them. The trouble with free will is that we also have the choice to interpret what is passed to us by God's messengers. (I know, if there is no God then there are no God's messengers.)

As a last comment, death comes to us all. In fact it may well be one of God's promises to us.

QM has asked an aged old enigma, that seems to be a conflict in the reality as we know it. Is there a God, and if there is, why doesn't he/she give us a freakin' break?

Let's break it down....Forever there have been Gods/Godesses or just one God. And let's not pretend to know who they are. We can't possibly know the extent that the entity we assume as "god", has control over human beings, because we're not certain that he/she exists, AND we shant know until we die, RIGHT?

Pretty screwed up puzzle, if you're askin' me. BUT, then again, if you have faith, you get the rewards. What kind of "god" would give you the ability to think of compassion, have the ability of emotion, be able to think problems out, and last, but not least, let you watch the ones you love die?


If you have learned this lesson, you don't need to ask.

Do I beleive in God? I believe in humanity. We exist solely for each other. We have a mind to destroy or create. That's the simple definition.

Would you give me an example of a messed up way?

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Bush (I had to throw that one in) and all the other evil people in the world too. First, God has got to just hate jews if he let all that crap happen to them. If he was really all-loving, he shows it by creating (or allowing) a lot of pain and anguish and war, which isn't very loving.

btw don't go giving me that 'free-will' crap speech. If God is indeed all-knowing and all-powerful, then when he created us he knew EXACTLY how everything would turn out, including the good and the bad, so the free-will that we think we have is nothing more than a script which we follow perfectly - God chose for it to be that way since when he put all the atoms in their specific places he knew exactly how they would react with one another.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Bush (I had to throw that one in) and all the other evil people in the world too.And that's just the people. There are then all the horrors of nature such as parasites, viruses, poisons, being eaten alive, the majority of baby organisms dying, injuries, animal hierarchies, droughts and on and on and on...

Originally Posted by Stark:

If I could just add...

* He's all powerful, all knowing, righteous, pure, and all loving. He's not working for our pleasure, but for our salvation, in a mode of operation that we cannot understand. His goal; bringing as many people into The Kingdom as possible without contradicting his nature.
Here is a point that puzzles me. Let me bring in something I said in this thread earlier:
Another way to look at the problem is simply to discuss what it means to have a god that is "Good". Does it actually require that he ensures there be no suffering? Well, if a fairly nice person is given the power to be god, it seems like that's what that person would do and would think is the "good" thing to do. So either god is not good or god is good "by default", making moral arguments meaningless (ie. whatever god does, it will be defined as good simply by virtue of it being done by god).
Now, since you mentioned that god is good, but also mentioned that the way god acts cannot be understood, it leaves me to think that discussions of morality becomes pretty meaningless regarding god's action. Because god's actions escape judgement. This leads to the curious invitation to ponder the following: If god's actions cannot be understood, how comes it he was judged to be "Good" in the first place by the believer? He wasn't, of course, as judgement requires understanding. The believer must take the leap of faith and accept that god is "good" without attempting to understand why it is so through examining god's "actions". This is a bit scary, to me. We certainly do not apply the same reasoning when we buy everyday things, choose a college, or when going on dates. i.e. When we make everyday decisions, something is "good" because BLAH. BLAH in this case being the conclusion from an inspection by rules we understand. A meal is good because its tastiness made me happy. A school is good because its graduates do well. A girlfriend is good because she's beautiful and likes you. etc. But a god is good...because he is. His actions cannot be understood, so this is as far as a believer can go when juedging the goodness of a god. I think anyone who is not satisfied with this way of judging things, therefore, cannot become religious.

back to the original thread:

God has alot to answer for?

God has NOTHING to answer for.. if it weren't for God you wouldnt be alive right now... Death and suffering are all a part of our lives (in my opinion) to test our will, to see how we react, im sure God's knowledge is FAR beyond any of our own.. and that includes any egotistical liberals who HATE to be told so... :rolleyes:

I suggest you get the the problem that is REALLY bothering you and stop trying to blame God...

Humility is a tough concept for humans to grasp.. ESPECIALLY in today's society.. where you are told, taught, and trained to think of YOURSELF as a "god". Its a farce and its pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. There's so much competitive hatred in people today.. i always here "how dare she say that about me" or "That guy just bumped me who the F does he think he is"... why can't you just take things for what they are.. and not try to make a soap opera out of it? You want to make humanity better? Take away Music Videos, Soap Operas, and Reality TV.. and people will stop TRYING to be LIKE something and just be themselves...

We should all realize that we aren't much when it comes to the grand scheme of things... God doesn't have to answer anything of ours.. so just be glad that he DOES listen and answers prayer.. because if he didn't we'd all be F'd...
How does he answer?

If god really exists then why is there death and stuff in the world :confused:
Death and "stuff" are natural. Nature is nuetral, neither good nor evil.
If "stuff" is refering to the evil commited by mankind, then why should God need to answer for that? God decided that we should not be His puppets and that we should have free-will. Many people decide to abuse this gift.

And that's just the people. There are then all the horrors of nature such as parasites, viruses, poisons, being eaten alive, the majority of baby organisms dying, injuries, animal hierarchies, droughts and on and on and on...
These are all examples of natural processes. Nature may seem harsh and unforgiving, but it is not evil. It is not even alive. Evil comes from conscious decision, and therefore its primary source is us.

ESPECIALLY in today's society.. where you are told, taught, and trained to think of YOURSELF as a "god".

I must have been sick that day. Which subject was that taught in? Or maybe you went to a real strange school. Please tell us about how you were "told, taught, and trained to think of YOURSELF as a 'god'"

I must have been sick that day. Which subject was that taught in? Or maybe you went to a real strange school. Please tell us about how you were "told, taught, and trained to think of YOURSELF as a 'god'"Welcome to allForums Statman!

I hope you find things interesting here. Good luck arguing with Decka, though. You'll get much the same result as you would from bashing your head against the nearest brick wall.

(All in good fun, Decka) :)

I've been thinking about and wrestling with this issue for quite some time. I think Real Sorceror has best answered the question when he said:

Death and "stuff" are natural. Nature is nuetral, neither good nor evil.
If "stuff" is refering to the evil commited by mankind, then why should God need to answer for that? God decided that we should not be His puppets and that we should have free-will. Many people decide to abuse this gift.

~and~

These are all examples of natural processes. Nature may seem harsh and unforgiving, but it is not evil. It is not even alive. Evil comes from conscious decision, and therefore its primary source is us.

Thanks for the props UCD! :thumbs:

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Bush (I had to throw that one in) and all the other evil people in the world too..

What should God have done with these people? Should He have killed them at birth? Should He have taken control of their minds and made them automatons? If He does that, with them, where does He stop? Does He prevent anyone who does not do exactly as He says from being born, or should He strike people dead as soon as they do wrong? I'm interested in your answer, because I can't think of a scenario that sounds better then what we have now?

First, God has got to just hate jews if he let all that crap happen to them. If he was really all-loving, he shows it by creating (or allowing) a lot of pain and anguish and war, which isn't very loving.

Again, what should God have done, that would allow people freedom to love Him or not to love Him, while at the same time allow people to chose to be kind to each other, and to help those in need?

btw don't go giving me that 'free-will' crap speech. If God is indeed all-knowing and all-powerful, then when he created us he knew EXACTLY how everything would turn out, including the good and the bad, so the free-will that we think we have is nothing more than a script which we follow perfectly - God chose for it to be that way since when he put all the atoms in their specific places he knew exactly how they would react with one another.

This is another quote where I'd like an explanation, if you don't mind. If God is indeed all-knowing, and has shown great love for the people of this world by dying on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins, so that we can be with Him in heaven and at the same time fulfill the righteous requirements of the law of sin and death, how can you say He's not loving unless you are all knowing also. Could it be that God is operating in a way that satisfies His nature, and allows us freedom?

And that's just the people. There are then all the horrors of nature such as parasites, viruses, poisons, being eaten alive, the majority of baby organisms dying, injuries, animal hierarchies, droughts and on and on and on...

The Bible teaches it was not supposed to be that way. It teaches that all of creation groans because of mans sin against God.

The Bible teaches it was not supposed to be that way. It teaches that all of creation groans because of mans sin against God.As a creationist you believe that parasites and viruses and carnivores and so on were designed by god do you not? I know you believe Adam and Eve fell but obviously you do not believe that they then genetically engineered all these horrors.

What should God have done with these people? Should He have killed them at birth? Should He have taken control of their minds and made them automatons? If He does that, with them, where does He stop? Does He prevent anyone who does not do exactly as He says from being born, or should He strike people dead as soon as they do wrong? I'm interested in your answer, because I can't think of a scenario that sounds better then what we have now?

He doesn't need to do anything. He created the world and the inhabitants right? So when he created them he could accurately predict how they would think and how they would interact, correct? If he knew how they would act when he created them, then he knew that if he created them in the way that he did that Hitler and Mao would do what they did. Not only did he know that they would act as they did, but he created them so that they would act in that way.

Again, what should God have done, that would allow people freedom to love Him or not to love Him, while at the same time allow people to chose to be kind to each other, and to help those in need?
He didn't 'allow' people to have free choice. He knows all and is all powerful, correct? Then when he created people he placed the atoms in such a way that they would react with one another in a particular manner, and since God is all knowing, he would be able to predict exactly how those atoms would act with one another. That is not free-will. That is a predetermined path. We have our own choices in certain matters, but the choices that we make were already chosen by God when he created us.

This is another quote where I'd like an explanation, if you don't mind. If God is indeed all-knowing, and has shown great love for the people of this world by dying on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins, so that we can be with Him in heaven and at the same time fulfill the righteous requirements of the law of sin and death, how can you say He's not loving unless you are all knowing also.
He died with full knowledge of what would happen before it happened, since he is also all-powerful, when he created us, he would have been able to re-arrange the atoms so a different future would happen; one where we did not sin and one where he did not die.

The Bible teaches it was not supposed to be that way. It teaches that all of creation groans because of mans sin against God.

The Bible is recounted by man hundereds of years after the events occurred, with all of man's inaccuracies in recounting compounded over the years; exaggeration, cherrypicking, omitting and just making crap up.

Remember the quote, "the fish that got away", or "it was THIS big!" Same logic applies.

...Now, since you mentioned that god is good, but also mentioned that the way god acts cannot be understood, it leaves me to think that discussions of morality becomes pretty meaningless regarding god's action. Because god's actions escape judgement. This leads to the curious invitation to ponder the following: If god's actions cannot be understood, how comes it he was judged to be "Good" in the first place by the believer?

We can't understand all of His actions or know the final out come of hardly any of His actions, but we can understand some of His actions and know that the final out come of at least one of His actions is Good.


He wasn't, of course, as judgement requires understanding. The believer must take the leap of faith and accept that god is "good" without attempting to understand why it is so through examining god's "actions". This is a bit scary, to me.

Why would someone taking a leap of faith and believing that God is good be a "bit scary" to you?


We certainly do not apply the same reasoning when we buy everyday things, choose a college, or when going on dates. i.e. When we make everyday decisions, something is "good" because BLAH. BLAH in this case being the conclusion from an inspection by rules we understand. A meal is good because its tastiness made me happy. A school is good because its graduates do well. A girlfriend is good because she's beautiful and likes you. etc. But a god is good...because he is. His actions cannot be understood, so this is as far as a believer can go when juedging the goodness of a god. I think anyone who is not satisfied with this way of judging things, therefore, cannot become religious.

All of God's actions cannot be understood, but some of His actions can be recognized. Jesus dying on the cross to rescue whom ever wants to be rescued, is a supreme act of Good.

As a creationist you believe that parasites and viruses and carnivores and so on were designed by god do you not? I know you believe Adam and Eve fell but obviously you do not believe that they then genetically engineered all these horrors.

Blob, you are right, I do not believe that Adam and Eve genetically engineered the parasites viruses and carnivores.
As God promised, death came when man sinned.

Originally Posted by Stark
We can't understand all of His actions or know the final out come of hardly any of His actions, but we can understand some of His actions and know that the final out come of at least one of His actions is Good.
Okay. So you do make judgment about the god based on observing his actions, having in mind beforehand what is "good" and what is not, before determinig whether god itself is "Good" or not. It sounds much more reasonable than the other way around, where one starts with a preassumption that god is "good", and then use all of god's actions as a standard for what "good" entails. The problem of this line of thought pertaining to this tread is the arbitrariness with which different people can exercise in deciding which of god's actions (or non-actions, or the characteristics of the world, etc.) are "clearly understood". For example, you just mentioned that at least one of his actions resulted in good final outcome. I imagine many people can point out the actions as depicted in the bible, or as simple as the problem discussed in this thread (omni-benelovent + omni-potent god as defined is incompatible with the presence of suffering), and say that these are clear enough as to be taken as "understood". In effect, then, you have a god that commits actions that are both "good" and "bad", as judged by our existing values, but where the believers deny the "bad" ones' validity. With what logic, I do not know.
Why would someone taking a leap of faith and believing that God is good be a "bit scary" to you?
In the context where I said that, it means there is a complete refusal to alter the idea that god is "good" no matter what is observed or learned. (due to, as I said, the assumption that god's actions cannot be understood and judged) I find this scary because any similar example involving everyday matter done this way is totally unacceptable.
All of God's actions cannot be understood, but some of His actions can be recognized. Jesus dying on the cross to rescue whom ever wants to be rescued, is a supreme act of Good.
This line of thinking gets the same line of reply I've given in the first paragraph.

I must have been sick that day. Which subject was that taught in? Or maybe you went to a real strange school. Please tell us about how you were "told, taught, and trained to think of YOURSELF as a 'god'"

Im not talking about school, im talking about society..

if you are a teen, and watching reality TV, or reading celeb mags, or watching MTV, or are buying into the bullshit class system of high school... THAT is what im talking about.

The APPEARANCE of power is all that matters, it doesnt matter if you have it. Reality TV preaches that its okay to hate the person who is different from you.. you should stab them in the back, make a big dramatic scene about it, and get the better of the person... right? You should snap your fingers, cock your head, and be the bitch that you're supposed to be.

Celeb mags preach how to look.. notice that all high school and teen kids try to look like what is popular in music. So basically all the kids are told what to wear, how to act, and what to be... as does MTV

High school is all about image.. it doesn't matter if anyone can kick anyone's ass lol.. it only matters if you APPEAR tough.. right? And then girls are TOLD to like that... because it is linked together in so many stupid shows. The whole high school gig is a dog and pony show.. a puppet show.. whatever you want to call it... and while we all go through it, it gets worse every year. People want to be so dramatic, because they see it on TV.. they think its normal, when it really isn't.

The sad thing is.. most kids are so insecure that they buy right into it and let it all soak through their skin... its sad. Years later its so obvious to me everything i did wrong.. and i was an OUTSIDER to everything as far as high school, i REJECTED all that shit.

Basically.. the abscense of humility and the encouragement of ego leads me to the opinion that we are taught to think of ourselves as Gods...

I'm not talking about school, im talking about society.....if you are a teen, and watching reality TV, or reading celeb mags, or watching MTV, or are buying into the bullshit class system of high school... THAT is what im talking about.....Basically, the absense of humility and the encouragement of ego leads me to the opinion that we are taught to think of ourselves as Gods...

He has a valid point there.

People are taught humility all the time. You are told to show respect for your parents, teachers and elders - to be humble before them.

People learn to have egos also, to have self-respect and to have pride in their exceptional accomplishments. Exceptional means that it is are not normal, which implies that for any task the norm is average, and not a reason for a person to be proud of that work.

Also, when people read those magazines, they are looking up to these celebrities, not seeing themselves as those celebs. The celebrities may believe that they are gods, but the person reading about them most certainly does not.

Didn't used to be that way however. The "in your face" culture we live in has a serious humility problem. At the risk of sounding like a "fundy" I think I know why the culture is this way and getting worse.

Back in the 50's when i grew up almost everyone had a modicum of respect for one another...and the root of it could be traced to the idea that there was a God who would ultimately hold us accoutable for the way we lived our lives...and it was obvious that doing anything to violate another person was always wrong. Now...with relativism so rampant...it is almost impossible to value ANY particular truth...because so many of donl;t even think ther IS such a thing as truth. No transcendent guidlines means we get to do it all our way...and the results are simply working themselves out before our very eyes. How often do we hear over and over.."Why I just don;t understand how this could have happened...,mothers drowning their children...school kids shooting one another for fun....and on and on....the depravity just keeps getting more purient every day. Basically...abandoning Gods law (not even admitting He is there) condemns us to the downward spiral...and we are just getting started....

It is an interesting question, and valid I suppose. There's deffinately no need for contempt, or impatience, though the subject title is a tad bit arrogant.

There's no set answer. There's probably a different answer for each person attempting to give each answer. My answer is simple. When the Creator made the universe, the intention was to have everything function on a cycle. From birth, there would eventually be death. Life runs in a constant circle. Life, death, rebirth.

There's both a practical, and spiritual side to my answer. The practical side is, without death in it's myriad of forms, the world would very quickly become overcrowded with all forms of life. The result would be nothing short of horrendous. There would be zero balance.

So, my answer to the question is, the Creator brought death into the equation as a means of both maintaining a balance, and simple population control.

Didn't used to be that way however. The "in your face" culture we live in has a serious humility problem. At the risk of sounding like a "fundy" I think I know why the culture is this way and getting worse.

Back in the 50's when i grew up almost everyone had a modicum of respect for one another...and the root of it could be traced to the idea that there was a God who would ultimately hold us accoutable for the way we lived our lives...and it was obvious that doing anything to violate another person was always wrong. Now...with relativism so rampant...it is almost impossible to value ANY particular truth...because so many of donl;t even think ther IS such a thing as truth. No transcendent guidlines means we get to do it all our way...and the results are simply working themselves out before our very eyes. How often do we hear over and over.."Why I just don;t understand how this could have happened...,mothers drowning their children...school kids shooting one another for fun....and on and on....the depravity just keeps getting more purient every day. Basically...abandoning Gods law (not even admitting He is there) condemns us to the downward spiral...and we are just getting started....We may indeed be in a downward spiral but I don't think it's because not enough people believe in Hellfire and Damnation. I see little relation between a belief in God and living a moral life. Decency and consideration for others don't have to be instilled in children by coercive means, nor do I think the criminal element is heavily populated by atheists. Quite the contrary, atheists and agnostics tend to be very thoughtful concerned people. Some religions even imply the admissibility of immoral behavior. The Christian belief, for example, that a sinner can find redemption in the last moments before death can lead some to think (if they time their salvation right) that they can 'get away with' quite a lot of sinful behavior.

Also, I'm sure mothers have been drowning their children throughout history, even back in the fifties. There just wasn't as much media coverage back then as there is today (although we do know that ritual sacrifice of children is as old as the Bible and a religious concept at that). Human nature hasn't changed; we see more of it is all.

Back in the 50's when i grew up almost everyone had a modicum of respect for one another...and the root of it could be traced to the idea that there was a God who would ultimately hold us accoutable for the way we lived our lives...How often do we hear over and over.."Why I just don't understand how this could have happened...,mothers drowning their children....."

I believe you are totally unaware just how many of those **mothers who drown their children** have later told the authorities that the reason they did it was that --"God told me to do it!"

The persistent belief in this "God" that you make reference to that human beings have --and NOT a lack of belief in him-- is to blame for many of those drowned children coming to BE drowned.

Welcome Frank Cory!

I'd love to stop and chat but as I don't believe in god guess I might as well go shoot some school children instead.

Seeing as how I'm a pagan with no divine moral compass, I think I'll go help those athiest kill school children. I certianly don't know why that would be wrong. :hahanot:

We may indeed be in a downward spiral but I don't think it's because not enough people believe in Hellfire and Damnation. I see little relation between a belief in God and living a moral life. Decency and consideration for others don't have to be instilled in children by coercive means, nor do I think the criminal element is heavily populated by atheists. Quite the contrary, atheists and agnostics tend to be very thoughtful concerned people. Some religions even imply the admissibility of immoral behavior. The Christian belief, for example, that a sinner can find redemption in the last moments before death can lead some to think (if they time their salvation right) that they can 'get away with' quite a lot of sinful behavior.

Also, I'm sure mothers have been drowning their children throughout history, even back in the fifties. There just wasn't as much media coverage back then as there is today (although we do know that ritual sacrifice of children is as old as the Bible and a religious concept at that). Human nature hasn't changed; we see more of it is all.

Today's world is in need of a lesson in humility but not because of what is viewed as "relativism". It's because no one thought to set limits to what would be allowed.

You see, I follow a spiritual path that's survived more than 3 and a half thousand years. During that time, it's survived several civil wars, one revolution, a transition from hereditary despotism to a form of representative-rule democracy that was kept in check by some very interesting means.

In that time, many social problems were encountered, and eventually solved. My beliefs dictate that no adult has the right to tell another adult how they should live their lives. No one has the right to dictate and project their beliefs on another person. HOWEVER, should someone's PRACTICES (note that I didn't say "belief") should cause any form of harm to others, then the people have the right to put a stop to it. In otherwords, the counter-balance to such openess should always be, "Your rights end where mine begin, and vice versa." Any thoughts people?

In that time, many social problems were encountered, and eventually solved. My beliefs dictate that no adult has the right to tell another adult how they should live their lives. No one has the right to dictate and project their beliefs on another person. HOWEVER, should someone's PRACTICES (note that I didn't say "belief") should cause any form of harm to others, then the people have the right to put a stop to it. In otherwords, the counter-balance to such openess should always be, "Your rights end where mine begin, and vice versa." Any thoughts people?
Its a start. I like it.

"An it harm none, do what ye will."

You see, I follow a spiritual path that's survived more than 3 and a half thousand years.

Yeah. While humans have existed on the planet for around 1.5 million years.

Color me unimpressed.

(not to mention astounded that anyone could believe in a "god" who "created" human beings but who sat around waiting for 1,496,500 years before he began to "speak" to them and tell them he was "up" there watching them.....)

But then, maybe you believe the first human beings on Earth came into existence only in the past *3 and a half thousand years* that you speak of.

you act as if believing in nothing is somehow superior.

you act as if believing in nothing is somehow superior.

?!?!?

Certainly it is superioir --IMO-- to believe in things that are visible, testable or quantifiable.

I do not feel compelled in any way to believe in things for which there is no reasonable proof. The Tooth Fairy, leprechauns, unicorns, and other mythical beasts -- and for thjat matter every invisible "god" that man has ever dreamed up, including Zeus, Athena, Set, Horus, Yahweh, etc -- have no actual supporting data to affirm their existence. They are all based purely on "faith".

Yeah. While humans have existed on the planet for around 1.5 million years.

Color me unimpressed.

(not to mention astounded that anyone could believe in a "god" who "created" human beings but who sat around waiting for 1,496,500 years before he began to "speak" to them and tell them he was "up" there watching them.....)

But then, maybe you believe the first human beings on Earth came into existence only in the past *3 and a half thousand years* that you speak of.

Freethinker,

It's true that, in terms of the total of human existence, three and a half thousand years isn't very long. I'll give you that. Your response, rather at odds with your name, isn't much of a surprise. Perhaps you might try asking questions, as opposed to making assumptions?

I am one who believes that one of the true tests of a culture's survivability is time. It's why I emphasised the amount of time my culture has been around. There aren't many currently surviving cultures that're that old. China, not to mention many of the cultures of North and South America, as well as many of the cultures in Africa and Asia.

Another test is how well that culture deals with the problems it encountered. How to ensure that everyone eats, and remains a productive member of society, how to make sure that everyone has a voice, while making sure that no one steps on the other's toes. How to walk that tight rope between looking out for the rights of people, and acting in their best interest.

These are just a few ways to gauge the survivability of a culture. So, let's play "Compare the Cultures" for a second. American society: a little over 200 years old. My people's way of life: 3,500+ years. American society: homlessness and unemployment are constant problems. My people's system of government was once described by Sen. Henry Dawes, during the 1880's, as having not a pauper, every family having a home, and the government owing not a dollar to anyone. I should point out that he said that just before he pushed through legislation that illegally gutted the before mentioned governmental system.

In American society, it took acts of Congress for blacks, indians, and women to enjoy the same rights that white men had enjoyed since the signing of the Declaration of Independence. In fact, the original constitution only allowed for white, male, propertyowners to vote.

Of course, the American system has come a long way in the past 2 + centuries. In terms of civil liberties, people have more freedom these days than they did during the early days of the republic. Still, time will tell if things will continue to get better, or if it'll spiral downward.

Addressing your implication that I'm one of those "young earth" people. That was a cheap shot, and very unworthy of you. Try demonstrating some maturity, as opposed to feeble attempts at insulting me. If you were trying to ask if those are my beliefs, the answer is "no". My culture was spawnd from another one, which is currently over 10,000 years old. It's still alive and kicking, too.

As for my beliefs in the Creator, I believe that the Creator is always in contact with us. However, unlike the Christians, I don't believe that the Creator is actively involved with how we do things. The Creator simply sits back and watches to see what we'll do, and how we do it. Occasionally throughout our history, the Creator has stepped in when things got out of hand. Then again, my people seem to have been the better behaved of the Creator's children.

?!?!?

Certainly it is superioir --IMO-- to believe in things that are visible, testable or quantifiable.

I do not feel compelled in any way to believe in things for which there is no reasonable proof. The Tooth Fairy, leprechauns, unicorns, and other mythical beasts -- and for thjat matter every invisible "god" that man has ever dreamed up, including Zeus, Athena, Set, Horus, Yahweh, etc -- have no actual supporting data to affirm their existence. They are all based purely on "faith".

so ther eis nothing in this world you believe in that you can not hold in your hand?

So, let's play "Compare the Cultures" for a second. American society: a little over 200 years old. My people's way of life: 3,500+ years.

I would have to know what society you're refering to by saying ""my people's way of life".

Who are "your people".....??

so ther eis nothing in this world you believe in that you can not hold in your hand?

I recognize the existence of those things which are observable, repeatable, testable and predictable....and for which there is tangible, quantifiable evidence. I cannot hold *air* in my hand, but yes, I recognize its existence.

I cannot hold *loyalty* or "punctuality* or *imagination* in my hand, but yes, I recognize their existence.

Things like the Tooth Fairy and "demons* and "god" are NOT observable, nor are they repeatable, testable or predictable, and they have NO supporting data to affirm their existence; hence I remain unconvinced of their existence.

?!?!?

Certainly it is superioir --IMO-- to believe in things that are visible, testable or quantifiable.

Superior only if that particular belief system leads to a higher good for one's self and others. Inferior if it benefits no one but self or hurts others or even self. It's all relative.

Mother Theresa according to you held an inferior belief system...however for her that supposed inferior belief system led her to do great feats for humanity. The kind of humanity that others reviled or kicked to the curb.

Superior is as superior does.

?!?!?

Certainly it is superioir --IMO-- to believe in things that are visible, testable or quantifiable.

I do not feel compelled in any way to believe in things for which there is no reasonable proof. The Tooth Fairy, leprechauns, unicorns, and other mythical beasts -- and for thjat matter every invisible "god" that man has ever dreamed up, including Zeus, Athena, Set, Horus, Yahweh, etc -- have no actual supporting data to affirm their existence. They are all based purely on "faith".
And thats just fine. I respect your need for solid evidence. Its a good trait, but taken to extremes it can lead to a worldview that is no better then the Bible literalist fundies.

I would have to know what society you're refering to by saying ""my people's way of life".

Who are "your people".....??

Freethinker, I'd be happy to tell you. I am of Cherokee ancestry, and I am a traditionalist, which means that my beliefs are the same as the one's my ancestors held before the introduction of Christianity. My practices are as close as the law allows.

If god really exists then why is there death and stuff in the world :confused:


If God got rid of mankind then there would be no wars, crimes and all that stuff. Do you give to the needy !

I recognize the existence of those things which are observable, repeatable, testable and predictable....and for which there is tangible, quantifiable evidence. I cannot hold *air* in my hand, but yes, I recognize its existence.

I cannot hold *loyalty* or "punctuality* or *imagination* in my hand, but yes, I recognize their existence.

Things like the Tooth Fairy and "demons* and "god" are NOT observable, nor are they repeatable, testable or predictable, and they have NO supporting data to affirm their existence; hence I remain unconvinced of their existence.


If you Can't see Gods craftmanship in makeing the heavens and the earth
then God would be wasting His Word on your time to a harden heart.
His Word sais not to give pearls to swines, its a waste of time besides
how can you know God if you don't know His Word or you haven't been
called.

If you Can't see Gods craftmanship in makeing the heavens and the earth
then God would be wasting His Word on your time to a harden heart.
His Word sais not to give pearls to swines, its a waste of time besides
how can you know God if you don't know His Word or you haven't been
called.

My take on it is simple. Speak your truth, with quiet strength, and humility. After that point, it ceases to be of any importance. Within reason, none of us has the right to interfere with another's beliefs, or lack thereof.

?!?!?

Certainly it is superioir --IMO-- to believe in things that are visible, testable or quantifiable.

I do not feel compelled in any way to believe in things for which there is no reasonable proof. The Tooth Fairy, leprechauns, unicorns, and other mythical beasts -- and for thjat matter every invisible "god" that man has ever dreamed up, including Zeus, Athena, Set, Horus, Yahweh, etc -- have no actual supporting data to affirm their existence. They are all based purely on "faith".
It is indeed logical to believe in visible, testable, or quantifiable things. Science is based on logic, and it tells us things that follow those three premises.

However, many believe it necessary it believe in something that science has been utterly silent on, positive or negative. And why shouldn't they? It is a positive presence in their lives and (properly observed) harms no one. It's not for you, and it's not for me, but why shouldn't others believe it?

If God got rid of mankind there would be peace and harmony on planet earth.
When you kneel before Jesus on judgement day then you can conplain all
you want before being thrown into eternal seperation !

If God got rid of mankind there would be peace and harmony on planet earth.
Doubtful. There'd still be hurricanes, earthquakes, and floods. Plus its only a matter of time before the next warmongering sentient race fills our niche.
When you kneel before Jesus on judgement day then you can conplain all
you want before being thrown into eternal seperation !
I love when people say their loving God would eternally seperate people from Him. Buddy, are aware of how long eternity is?

We die so we can ultimately know the truth. If we deny ourselves the truth in life we know it in death.
If we let the truth find us in life we are rewarded with it in death with a second life.
The most important question someone should ask, is why we have emotions?

I would rather NOT know the truth then!!

sheeesh

back to the original thread:

God has alot to answer for?

God has NOTHING to answer for.. if it weren't for God you wouldnt be alive right now... Death and suffering are all a part of our lives (in my opinion) to test our will, to see how we react, im sure God's knowledge is FAR beyond any of our own.. and that includes any egotistical liberals who HATE to be told so... :rolleyes:

I suggest you get the the problem that is REALLY bothering you and stop trying to blame God...

Humility is a tough concept for humans to grasp.. ESPECIALLY in today's society.. where you are told, taught, and trained to think of YOURSELF as a "god". Its a farce and its pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. There's so much competitive hatred in people today.. i always here "how dare she say that about me" or "That guy just bumped me who the F does he think he is"... why can't you just take things for what they are.. and not try to make a soap opera out of it? You want to make humanity better? Take away Music Videos, Soap Operas, and Reality TV.. and people will stop TRYING to be LIKE something and just be themselves...

We should all realize that we aren't much when it comes to the grand scheme of things... God doesn't have to answer anything of ours.. so just be glad that he DOES listen and answers prayer.. because if he didn't we'd all be F'd...

>>>>There's so much competitive hatred in people today<<<<<
And most of them claim to be christians! Most wars are over religion and beliefs!

Here are some questions for you!

If adam and eve were the first...... where did their son travel to to bring back a wife???

Why is there no mention of dinosaurs?

If all creatures and people parished except for those on the ark, where did the other animal species come from, and why is there different nationalities and races?

If Psychics are evil...... what were the prophits?? They were see'ers!! What makes them different from today Psychics?

If we aren't suppose to judge people, why are christians the ones who are so fast to judge. Why are they the first to condemn someone for being gay?

I've been waiting for the answers to these questions since I was 13!

Any answers???

Any answers???
Yes. Don't believe the Bible.

It is indeed logical to believe in visible, testable, or quantifiable things. Science is based on logic, and it tells us things that follow those three premises.

However, many believe it necessary it believe in something that science has been utterly silent on, positive or negative. And why shouldn't they? It is a positive presence in their lives and (properly observed) harms no one. It's not for you, and it's not for me, but why shouldn't others believe it?

Because it (iow, the religious meme) is a form of insanity, and when people who are afflicted with said insanity produce offspring, they in turn induce the same insane beliefs in those offspring, and it becomes self-perpetuating.

Plus, the Xtian meme is, IMO, very harmful to and threating to the continued existence of the planet.

_________________________________________________

"The religious Right of twenty-first century America is anti-American, inherently violent, and a cruel, tyrannical, punitive, force of death and destruction. The unredeemed, the unbelievers, the poor, the feminists, the gay and lesbian, the disabled, the homeless, the mentally ill, the addicted, and those who are conscientiously following divergent spiritual paths of their choice, are suffering in the wake of Christian fundamentalism’s devastation of the economy, the earth, and the human race." _________Carolyn Baker

Because it (iow, the religious meme) is a form of insanity, and when people who are afflicted with said insanity produce offspring, they in turn induce the same insane beliefs in those offspring, and it becomes self-perpetuating.

Plus, the Xtian meme is, IMO, very harmful to and threating to the continued existence of the planet.
Christianity is a mental illness? Thats a new one. I've met some crazy fundies before, but I've only come across one or two that really gave me the "officially insane" vibe.
Do you believe this applies to all Christians or just the right-wing zealot variety?

Do you believe this applies to all Christians or just the right-wing zealot variety?

It applies to anyone who believes that an invisible, omnipotent, supernatural entity is watching over them.

It applies to anyone who believes that an invisible, omnipotent, supernatural entity is watching over them.
Hmm, well my God isn't invisible, omnipotent, or supernatural, and I don't think He pays me any special attention.
I guess I'm not a crazy person, eh?

If god really exists then why is there death and stuff in the world :confused:
So we can feel alive.

Hmm, well my God isn't invisible, .......

Really??!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!

Then where is he right now?

Why has no person in 120,000 years been able to show him to another person???

Please take a picture of him and show it to me.

(my God isn't)....omnipotent

Huh?!?!?

Why would you call him "god" then?????

(my God isn't)....supernatural

Explain to me how there can be any entity called "god" that is not supernatural.

...and I don't think He pays me any special attention.


If he is --as you claim-- visible to you, just walk up to him and ASK him if he's watching you.

I guess I'm not a crazy person, eh?

I will refrain from giving an opinion on that.

Really??!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!

Then where is he right now?
Everywhere.
Why has no person in 120,000 years been able to show him to another person???
They have. People see Him all the time.
Please take a picture of him and show it to me.
Just walk outside. What do you see?
Huh?!?!?

Why would you call him "god" then?????
Well, unlike most omnipotent beings, my god does not know the future.
Also, are you aware that most pagan dieties are not omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient?
Explain to me how there can be any entity called "god" that is not supernatural.
My diety works via completely natural means. However, these means are not currently understood, so they are labeled "supernatural".
If he is --as you claim-- visible to you, just walk up to him and ASK him if he's watching you.
Hes not really into two-way conversation. Also, He doesn't tend to communicate with words. It's more empathic than anything else.
I will refrain from giving an opinion on that.
Aww, thanks.

It almost sounded like you believe that your god does not have any impact on the world, is that how you view your god?

Originally Posted by Real Sorceror
Hmm, well my God isn't invisible, .......

Really??!?!?!?!?!!!!

Then where is he right now?

Everywhere.

I am glad at least to have it out in the open; that you, like every other superstitionist I have ever spoken to, when talk turns to specifics of this metaphysical friend of yours, will retreat to meaningless inanities like --"My god is EVERYWHERE"

So. In your view of the world, God is only skin deep.
And blind hatred, vitriol, and haughty distain goes all the way to the bone.

Cool. Hate wins.

Freethinker, you are a man without peer.
And I can say that without fear of any sort of argument, from any corner.
You are one in a million, brother.

... meaningless inanities like --"My god is EVERYWHERE"

I, too, have difficulty in understanding that something can be in all places at the same time.
Rayleigh, in his 1908 paper The Ether (Aether) of Space
and auxiliary files, said The universe we are living in is an extraordinary one; and our investigation of it has only just begun. We know that matter has a psychical significance, since it can constitute brain, which links together the physical and the psychical worlds. If anyone thinks that the ether, with all its massiveness and energy, has probably no psychical significance, I find myself unable to agree with him.


Modern string theory seems to be leading to the same conclusion. Later work shows that some particles must have some properties that travel faster than light, indeed their effect is instantaneous across the entire universe. (The simplest analogy is gravity.)
Our brains are all part of the energies that comprise the strings that comprise the universe. If our brains are part and parcel of the energy strings, I would not be so so brash as to say that some other being cannot also be part of the same strings, in such a way as to be everywhere.
Science is indeed turning our world upside down. Who knows are yet to be found?