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500lbguerilla
07-16-2006, 11:48 PM
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_22471.shtml

Look who's been kidnapped!
By Arik Diamant
Jul 8, 2006, 13:21

Hundreds of Palestinian 'suspects' have been kidnapped from their homes and will never stand trial

It's the wee hours of the morning, still dark outside. A guerrilla force comes out of nowhere to kidnap a soldier. After hours of careful movement, the force reaches its target, and the ambush is on! In seconds, the soldier finds himself looking down the barrel of a rifle.

A smash in the face with the butt of the gun and the soldier falls to the ground, bleeding. The kidnappers pick him up, quickly tie his hands and blindfold him, and disappear into the night.

This might be the end of the kidnapping, but the nightmare has just begun. The soldier's mother collapses, his father prays. His commanding officers promise to do everything they can to get him back, his comrades swear revenge. An entire nation is up-in-arms, writing in pain and worry.

Nobody knows how the soldier is: Is he hurt? Do his captors give him even a minimum of human decency, or are they torturing him to death by trampling his honor? The worst sort of suffering is not knowing. Will he come home? And if so, when? And in what condition? Can anyone remain apathetic in the light of such drama?

Israeli terror

This description, you'll be surprised to know, has nothing to do with the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. It is the story of an arrest I carried out as an IDF soldier, in the Nablus casbah, about 10 years ago. The "soldier" was a 17-year-old boy, and we kidnapped him because he knew "someone" who had done "something."

We brought him tied up, with a burlap sac over his head, to a Shin Bet interrogation center known as "Scream Hill" (at the time we thought it was funny). There, the prisoner was beaten, violently shaken and sleep deprived for weeks or months. Who knows.

No one wrote about it in the paper. European diplomats were not called to help him. After all, there was nothing out of the ordinary about the kidnapping of this Palestinian kid. Over the 40 years of occupation we have kidnapped thousands of people, exactly like Gilad Shalit was captured: Threatened by a gun, beaten mercilessly, with no judge or jury, or witnesses, and without providing the family with any information about the captive.

When the Palestinians do this, we call it "terror." When we do it, we work overtime to whitewash the atrocity.

Suspects?

Some people will say: The IDF doesn't "just" kidnap. These people are "suspects." There is no more perverse lie than this. In all the years I served, I reached one simple conclusion: What makes a "suspect"? Who, exactly suspects him, and of what?

Who has the right to sentence a 17-year-old to kidnapping, torture and possible death? A 26-year-old Shin Bet interrogator? A 46-year-old one? Do these people have any higher education, apart from the ability to interrogate? What are his considerations? If all these "suspects" are so guilty, why not bring them to trial?

Anyone who believes that despite the lack of transparency, the IDF and Shin Bet to their best to minimize violations of human rights is naïve, if not brainwashed. One need only read the testimonies of soldiers who have carried out administrative detentions to be convinced of the depth of the immorality of our actions in the territories.

To this very day, there are hundreds of prisoners rotting in Shin Bet prisons and dungeons, people who have never been –and never will be – tried. And Israelis are silently resolved to this phenomenon.

Israeli responsibility

The day Gilad Shalit was kidnapped I rode in a taxi. The driver told me we must go into Gaza, start shooting people one-by-one, until someone breaks and returns the hostage. It isn't clear that such an operation would bring Gilad back alive.

Instead of getting dragged into terrorist responses, as Palestinian society has done, we should release some of the soldiers and civilians we have kidnapped. This is appropriate, right, and could bring about an air of reconciliation in the territories.

Hell, if this is what will bring Gilad home safe-and-sound, we have a responsibility to him to do it.

Arik Diamant is an IDF reservist and the head of the Courage to Refuse organization.
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_22471.shtml
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In war, semantics is everything
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/in-war-semantics-is-everything/2006/07/15/1152637913747.html
July 16, 2006

In 1942, Reinhard Heydrich, the Reichsprotektor of Bohemia and Moravia, was on his way to work in Prague when his car was attacked by two Czech resistance fighters. Heydrich was mortally wounded and died in hospital.

We designate the assassins "resistance fighters" retrospectively. To the Germans, they were terrorists. When they struck, they were not in uniform and they had been trained for their murderous task in Britain and secretly returned to Czechoslovakia. They were, by anyone's definition, terrorists. If German might had prevailed in Europe, that is how they would have gone down in history.

The Germans, determined to protect the lives of any of their citizens, "waded through blood", in Hitler's words, to exact revenge.

They chose the town of Lidice to demonstrate their rage and their reach. When the avenging Germans had finished, they left behind a pile of rubble and 1300 corpses - because one German had been murdered. Or was it murder?

Were the assassins freedom fighters or terrorists? Was Heydrich a civilian government official or a soldier? Only the victors assign the tags. The side that eventually won declared the punishment of Lidice to be an atrocity and a war crime and there was a sort of consensus that collective punishment of the innocent, either as revenge or to discourage others, is a morally unacceptable technique for waging war.

Why did the Germans destroy Lidice and its inhabitants? Probably because they could. War makes us angry and anger sends us morally blind and we soon succumb to the argument that for every one of us we will kill 10 or 100,000 of them. We will lay waste their country because they are terrorists and we are the innocents.

Such self-indulgence is only available to the overwhelmingly powerful. There was no counterforce in Czechoslovakia to stop the mighty German army doing what it wanted. They were able to give themselves permission to behave disgracefully and they did.

By the logic of disproportionate revenge for a terrorist outrage, Australia should have destroyed the water systems and power lines of Indonesia from one end of the country to the other as retribution for the killing of 88 Australians in Bali in 2002. The murderers may call themselves holy warriors, but we know that they are terrorists.

There was always some doubt about the intention or ability of the Indonesian judicial system to deal properly with the killers and we now know that our scepticism was justified. So why are we not bombing their airports and blockading their ports? Why are we not blowing up their bridges and attacking their cities? Why do we not assassinate their politicians?

The US ambassador to the UN, John Bolton, says that a nation has every right to defend its citizens. And here we get into the semantics of war and how we fix a perspective on events by the words we choose to use. If we say soldiers are "kidnapped", we create one impression. If we say they are "taken prisoner", we legitimise the same act. If we kill a man, his wife and his five children and call them "terrorists", we are defending our citizens. Labels, in war, are everything.

But what can we do? From time immemorial, the one with the biggest guns gets to write the moral rules. Any sort of universal moral imperative is for decent people and weaklings.
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And more on the current mindless violence...

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Americans Rescued from Lebanon Will Have to Pay to Be Repatriated :.

Let me get this straight... U.S. taxpayers give Israel billions of dollars per year. Without any warning, Israel, using U.S. made weapons, destroys Lebanon, striking civilian infrastructure at will, closing all means of escape and stranding tens of thousands of Americans in a swirling sh*tstorm. And what is the U.S. State Department's response to the stranded people?

You better be sitting down for this one:

The State Department added that the government would not provide free transportation but could provide repatriation loans "to those in financial need."
http://cryptogon.com/2006_07_09_blogarchive.html#115301329289729636
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Wildly disproportionate attack on Lebanon seems like pretext to confront Iran, says Linda McQuaig
Jul. 16, 2006. 01:00 AM

As Israeli firepower rained down on Lebanon last week, pundits here in the West wasted no time pinning the blame on — Iran.

"Iran and its radical allies are pushing toward war," wrote Washington Post columnist David Ignatius.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar%2FLayout%2FArticle_ Type1&c=Article&cid=1152913812442

500lbguerilla
07-17-2006, 12:17 AM
dead lebonese terrorists...
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/07/i-have-just-received-these-pictures.html

Fleeing Lebanon villagers caught in Israeli inferno
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/7/16/worldupdates/2006-07-15T233037Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_-259706-1&sec=Worldupdates

Cromagnon
07-17-2006, 01:00 AM
I'd like to send your post to as many friends as I can, if you don't mind.

Now lets wait what the extreme fascist right has to say .....

500lbguerilla
07-18-2006, 07:10 PM
They will say nothing because this exposes Israels actions as indefensible and nothing but cold blooded mass murder.

500lbguerilla
07-18-2006, 07:22 PM
Simply disgusting....Israel is letting young children write messeges on shells to be used in murdering innocent people. Whose being indoctrinated to hate again?....

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/photos/6/6332a58d-75a8-4b8a-85f9-4f9f9b7ad29f.html?SITE=TXCLU&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/photos/F/f9bc38f9-a3a9-401f-b864-a02b3a24f678.html?SITE=TXCLU&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

500lbguerilla
07-19-2006, 07:26 PM
They are bombing Christians too now...

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Security&loid=8.0.322578407&par

and shelling UN outposts...(flashback 1982...)
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L19641591.htm

accurate comic...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/martinrowson/archive/0,,1284262,00.html

500lbguerilla
07-20-2006, 05:37 PM
Israel Bombs Milk, Pharmaceutical Factories, Aid Convoys, Church
The humanitarian crisis in Lebanon continues to worsen. At least 500,000 people have been displaced from their homes. Scores of roads and bridges have been hit making it hard to transport food or humanitarian aid. Recent Israeli strikes have targeted the country’s largest milk factory, a major food factory and two pharmaceutical plants. Earlier bombs hit water processing plants, power plants and grain silos. On Tuesday a convoy of two trucks carrying medical supplies donated by the United Arab Emirates was hit. The trucks were destroyed and both drivers died. The Israeli military has denied targeting the factories or aid trucks. Two ambulances were also bombed on Tuesday. They were carrying Lebanese soldiers who were injured in an Israeli attack on their base that had killed eleven soldiers. A Greek Orthodox Church also suffered a direct hit. Inside the church were civilians who had taken refuge. At least 10 people were injured.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/19/1345246

old-reb
07-20-2006, 06:14 PM
Yeah, all the jailed Palestinians are innocent.

Never mind decades of targeting and murdering civilians.
Never mind that they've shown who they are by electing Hamas, with the clearly stated goal of ridding the middle east of every Jew.

This Diamant character probably says there was never a Jew in the middle east before 1948.

What a putz.

There are "jews" who earn their keep by agreeing to slander and lie about Jews. Makes them the darling of the Palestinians and their fans, all of whom have genocide as their goal. He's definitely one of them.

The Palestinians are of course 100% innocent of any crime. It's not a crime among their US fans to murder babies and children, as long as said babies and children are Jews.

Crap like Diamant isn't really a dime a dozen; there are only a handful of people like him, but they will always offer their support to whoever wants to rid the world of Jews.

Freethinker
07-20-2006, 06:38 PM
Yeah, all the jailed Palestinians are innocent.

No one has claimed they are all innocent. But many of them probably are.

I guess for someone like you though, it means nothing that 5 innocent people are jailed and/or tortured and/or killed for every guilty one, when the victims are those the "e-ville" people the Israelis do not like.

There are "jews" who earn their keep by agreeing to slander and lie about Jews.

Yes...the person who was THERE and took part in it is 'lying' about it...........according to you.

And you know this HOW, exactly?!?!? Your proof that he is "lying" is...... what?!!?!?

He is "lying" because he is exposing the people that people like YOU come here and make endless EXCUSES for.

old-reb
07-20-2006, 07:52 PM
You are making the words of one rebellious soldier into the whole middle east picture.

The over all picture is that the whole purpose of Hamas and Hezbollah is to destroy Israel because they will not bow to Allah.

Take it from there that Israel must do what is necessary to survive or convert to Islam.

LionelHutz
07-20-2006, 09:55 PM
How come every bomb ever dropped on Muslims hits milk and pharmaceutical plants? I know it's happened in Iraq and I'm pretty sure that was the allegation with the cruise missiles Clinton lobbed into Africa.

DrewM
07-20-2006, 10:54 PM
Those pictures are terrible & shocking.

Hizbollah is 150% responsible.

old-reb
07-21-2006, 06:53 AM
Everybody knows I support Israel 100% and hate Hezbollah and Hamas genocide machines but if I lived in Lebanon and Israel was bombing my country and killing my kin then my friendship would be gone and I would take arms against the one who was killing me even knowing full well that the cause of the bombs was racist Hezbollah.

Israel should not have a knee jerk reaction to rocket attacks. Israel fires back at any spot that a missile is fired from. This simple minded reaction allows Hezbollah to serve as a spotter for Israel artillery. Hezbollah goes to the spot they want Israel to bomb and they fire a missile and run and the spot gets bombed. Come on Israel, you can't be that simple minded. It could be that Israel doesn't do that but from the news reports it seems to be their policy.

Another choice would be for me to attack Hezbollah but that would be instant an death that would never make the news.

Decka
07-21-2006, 04:09 PM
This "Allah" character sure does cause alot of trouble doesn't he? I mean, i often hear his name and "praise Allah" during things that i'm sure Allah wouldn't approve of... like chopping off people's heads or what not...

old-reb
07-21-2006, 05:52 PM
This "Allah" character sure does cause alot of trouble doesn't he? I mean, i often hear his name and "praise Allah" during things that i'm sure Allah wouldn't approve of... like chopping off people's heads or what not...

Mohammad Allah chopped many a head.

(5) The sentence: Death by decapitation for around 300-600 men and pubescent boys, and enslavement for the women and children. Ibn Ishaq says that the number may have been as high as 800-900 (p. 464).

Muhammad was wise enough to have six clans execute two Jews each in order to stop any blood-feuds. The rest of the executions were probably carried out by Muhammad’s fellow Emigrants from Mecca, as the heads and bodies were dragged into trenches in the business district of Medina.

Source: Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman, p. 174

500lbguerilla
07-21-2006, 06:57 PM
You are making the words of one rebellious soldier into the whole middle east picture. no in case you didn't notice the title of the thread, 2 sides to every story. I am telling the 'other side' because all you normally hear is exactly the same crap you came in here an spouted off. It is you who is trying to paint 'one point of view' as representative. I am offering an alternative view.

If teh men are guilty let them stand trail in Israeli court. Without due process they were nothing more than kidnap victims.
There are "jews" who earn their keep by agreeing to slander and lie about Jews. Makes them the darling of the Palestinians and their fans, all of whom have genocide as their goal. He's definitely one of them. BTW I love your implication of "race traitor" here. The KKK loved that tactic. "if he defends niggers then he is a nigger"...nice, old reb.

Decka
07-21-2006, 06:59 PM
well i don't blame "Allah" personally... i just often notice that people kill in his name...

obviously there is some type of warped notion going through the muslim community if the way to "praise allah" is to behead another human....

500lbguerilla
07-21-2006, 07:10 PM
yeah it not like theres a whole boatload of whacko Christians counting on God coming to visit in a week in the middle of a nuclear holocaust or anything...

http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2006/07/15.html

Or see US tanks with roseries dangling from them...

Or a US tank named "the new testament"....

Or our resident calling the US a chrsitian nation while it commit mass muder of innocents...

Or stars of David painted on planes dropping bombs on innocent civilians...

Or bloody genocidal incursions for a jew only part of jerusalem...



Im not disagreeing with you. Just trying to show that there are hypocritical fanactical assholes in every religion.

500lbguerilla
07-21-2006, 07:30 PM
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4084/repjesus107do5.png
danke imageshack

googs
07-21-2006, 08:44 PM
well i don't blame "Allah" personally... i just often notice that people kill in his name...

obviously there is some type of warped notion going through the muslim community if the way to "praise allah" is to behead another human....

You should blame conservative christians who protest the deaths of soldiers and bomb abortion clinics because they have disappointed the "Lord Jesus Christ"

es347fan
07-21-2006, 08:53 PM
That's right ... when confronted with a valid statement, change the subject.

googs
07-21-2006, 08:55 PM
That's right ... when confronted with a valid statement, change the subject.


I never changed the subject, I said blame Christians.

es347fan
07-21-2006, 10:21 PM
"... and bomb abortion clinics ..."

Yeah, ok

Lungdop Philing
07-21-2006, 10:41 PM
Thanks to Bush arming Israel, american tax payers have blood on their hands.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world/middleeast/22military.html?hp&ex=1153540800&en=3f2d5ce210ea0b64&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Decka
07-22-2006, 12:26 AM
while you may be technically correct.. lets not kid ourselves. I'm not saying Christianity doesn't have its wackos... but there is a STRONG contigent of muslims right now who have weapons and kill innocent people daily...

DrewM
07-22-2006, 12:39 AM
Thanks to Bush arming Israel, american tax payers have blood on their hands.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world/middleeast/22military.html?hp&ex=1153540800&en=3f2d5ce210ea0b64&ei=5094&partner=homepage

er..so what? Big fucking story there.

They are fighting a war with established terrorists. They are doing the words dirt work here.

It's perfectly fine to have terrorist blood on your hands.

googs
07-22-2006, 12:41 AM
while you may be technically correct.. lets not kid ourselves. I'm not saying Christianity doesn't have its wackos... but there is a STRONG contigent of muslims right now who have weapons and kill innocent people daily...


I was just proving that every religon has its own set of whackos...

es347fan
07-22-2006, 01:07 AM
"I was just proving that every religon has its own set of whackos..."

That may very well be the case. However, in the latter part of the 20th & the beginnings of the 21st century, it is the Muslim "whackos" at the forefront.

Cromagnon
07-22-2006, 01:15 AM
"I was just proving that every religon has its own set of whackos..." That may very well be the case. However, in the latter part of the 20th & the beginnings of the 21st century, it is the Muslim "whackos" at the forefront.

You forget the wackos that elected the present administration, the wackos that are the NeoNazis here in good old USA, the wackos from the KKK, and just not to make a long list, the wackos at WACO, TX.

es347fan
07-22-2006, 01:33 AM
Elected by registered voters.

While you're correct in naming some fringe groups - KKK & NeoNazis- but none of them have done anything crazy lately.

As usual, you're attempting to divert the focus from the weirded out Muslims who have been completely responsible for the major terrorist events of the past 20 years.

Go ahead - make your list of U.S. born & bred knuckleheads. They're not even close to killing as many through pure hate - specifically Muslims v.s. Jews & Muslims v.s. Muslims - as any one group has been since the German Nazis.

You're welcome to go back to the country you left. Nobody forced you to come here.

500lbguerilla
07-22-2006, 03:21 AM
*cough Mcveigh *cough....
That's right ... when confronted with a valid statement, change the subject. Thats rich coming from someone who hijacked my thread on how horrible it is to murder innocent people, into haw crazy muslims are...

Maybe you can comment on the original thread then?...

es347fan
07-22-2006, 03:28 AM
There has been no denial of U.S. born & bred knuckleheads.

The U.S. born & bred knuckleheads have not been at the forefront of terrorism ... if anything, they're isolated incidents at best. The destruction of the Murrah Federal building in OK was a terrible thing, but not part of an ongoing pattern of terroristic incidents.

500lbguerilla
07-22-2006, 03:39 AM
Who wants war?http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6108/p1210706170715ain0.jpg

Lungdop Philing
07-22-2006, 09:16 AM
er..so what? Big fucking story there.

They are fighting a war with established terrorists. They are doing the words dirt work here.

It's perfectly fine to have terrorist blood on your hands.

3-yr old terrorist blood might be OK with you but not with me.