I'll be picking up my carry permit as soon as I return to Florida. I plan on joining the ranks of law abiding citizens carrying a concealed weapon.



Bush: Florida crime rate down to lowest level since '71
By BRENT KALLESTAD
Associated Press Writer

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Florida's crime rate dropped for the 14th straight year in 2005 to its lowest mark since 1971 because of tougher laws, increased financial support from the Legislature and law-abiding citizens with guns, Gov. Jeb Bush said Tuesday.

"This report shows that staying tough on crime works," said Bush. "Law abiding citizens that have guns for protection actually probably are part of the reason we have a lower crime rate."

The crime rate, compiled by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, decreased 3.7 percent from 4,855 crimes per 100,000 people in 2004 to 4,677 crimes per 100,000 people last year. The total included 881 murders, 12,230 rapes and 75,204 vehicle thefts.

In 2005, the state's law enforcement agencies reported 838,063 crimes compared to 850,490 in 2004, a 1.5 percent decrease.

Last year Bush signed a bill that allows people who feel threatened on the street, in a bar, at a ball game — or just about anywhere — to "meet force with force" to defend themselves without fear of being prosecuted.

"You send a real powerful signal when you know the citizen has a good potential of being armed and doesn't have to back off anymore," said John Birch, president of the Illinois-based Concealed Carry, Inc.

Opponents, however, have said the idea would legalize shootouts in the streets.

A telephone message left for comment after hours with the The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence in Washington, D.C. was not immediately returned.

Bush said he was concerned about the number of murders in the Jacksonville and Orlando areas, where there have already been 120 homicides this year.

FDLE chief Jerry Bailey said he has assigned seven agents to help Jacksonville officials with the troubling increase in murders and is working with law enforcement in central Florida on forming a task force.

The number of violent crimes in 2005 increased statewide by 1.7 percent although the rate dropped 0.6 percent and nonviolent crime decreased by 4.2 percent. Violent crimes are murder, forcible sex offenses, robbery and aggravated assault.

Reports of domestic violence were up slightly and those incidents accounted for more than a fourth of the reported violent crimes and one-fifth of all murders, according to FDLE.

"The people that commit the majority of the crimes are habitual offenders," Bush said. "They're the ones that commit a crime after crime after crime."

For the second straight year, authorities made more than one million arrests. The 1,056,121 arrests in 2005 represented a 2.6 percent increase.

Drug arrests continued to increase, going from 150,334 to 160,649. Last year they increased nearly 10 percent.

Well - carrying guns in the US is understandable, but the logic that guns stop crime is pathetic to say the least. Guns = death. It's that simple.

The stats may have fallen, but they are way way way higher than in countries like the UK where guns are completely banned. The homicide rate in the UK is over 10 times lower than Florida.

I'll be picking up my carry permit as soon as I return to Florida. I plan on joining the ranks of law abiding citizens carrying a concealed weapon.

Question for all the pro-concealed-carry people here;

Are you of the opinion that the more citizens who carry concealed weapons (I am talking about legally carried weapons) the safer our society in general will be?

Are you of the opinion that the more citizens who carry concealed weapons the safer our society in general will be?No, it won't be.

Many policemen don't recommend guns for home defense.

There's too good a likelihood of unfortunate accidents or actually being shot with your own gun as you surprise an intruder in your home.

There's other, safer ways of defending property, especially when you have small children around--guard dogs, home security, a well-lit home, deadbolt locks, shrubbery that's thorny, neighbors keeping a close eye out, not allowing mail or newspapers to pile up uncollected, having the police patrol your neighborhood if you're going to be out of town.

The last thing you want is to be shot with your own weapon.

There's an old saying: " ... you never need a gun until you really need a gun ... ".

That being said, I've kept a bullet launcher or 2 in the house for years and have never needed it. Most everyone I've met who've had weapons in their home have never needed theirs, either. One house I lived in some years ago was burglarized, but of course, no one was home at the time. Taking proactive steps to keep someone from seeing your abode as an easy target - as outlined by rendova - is highly recommended by all law enforcement types.

Question for all the pro-concealed-carry people here;

Are you of the opinion that the more citizens who carry concealed weapons (I am talking about legally carried weapons) the safer our society in general will be?


The safer I will be.

I have a monitored security system in my house up north. My house is well lit at night, both front and back. I have no newspapers delivered, my mail forwarded and my driveway plowed when I am away. In Florida a security key is needed to get into the building.

I have no such protections when I am in my car, stopped at a light, walking at night, or in a mall shopping center.

I have six guns at present, all safely locked in a steel gun cabinet with the ammunition locked in a seperate cabinet and the key hidden. I have taken gun safety courses. I feel comfortable with either a rifle, shotgun or pistol.

If you don't wish to carry a concealed weapon, don't. I choose to carry one.

The safer I will be.

I have a monitored security system in my house up north. My house is well lit at night, both front and back. I have no newspapers delivered, my mail forwarded and my driveway plowed when I am away. In Florida a security key is needed to get into the building.

I have no such protections when I am in my car, stopped at a light, walking at night, or in a mall shopping center.

I have six guns at present, all safely locked in a steel gun cabinet with the ammunition locked in a seperate cabinet and the key hidden. I have taken gun safety courses. I feel comfortable with either a rifle, shotgun or pistol.

If you don't wish to carry a concealed weapon, don't. I choose to carry one.

You are clearly a responsible gun owner who has taken all the steps to responsibly own firearms. If all gun owners were like that then society would probably be no worse off by having lots of guns.

The problem with guns though is when people have them easily available - it's too easy for people when angry or emotional to pull out the gun and shoot. Statistically, the risk of needing a gun to counter a criminal threat is very low. The chance of being shot by your own gun, or a person you know being shot with it is way higher.

I'm not a gun person, although I do admit when I came back to New Orleans to check on my house 1 week after Katrina struck I had a pistol & a pump action shotgun. It certainly made me feel safer.

Im thinking that there must be something seriously wrong in American Society if you need a firearm to feel safe.

Historically the US has been all about Guns. The wild west and all that. Guns are rooted in the culture & violent crime using Guns is through the roof.

Drew, your post illustrates the fact that many people don't want people to carry weapons unless they themselves feel a need to carry them because they fear for their safety.

While being against people carrying guns you admit that you did so yourself when you felt your safety might be compromised.

You are clearly a responsible gun owner who has taken all the steps to responsibly own firearms. If all gun owners were like that then society would probably be no worse off by having lots of guns.

The problem with guns though is when people have them easily available - it's too easy for people when angry or emotional to pull out the gun and shoot. Statistically, the risk of needing a gun to counter a criminal threat is very low. The chance of being shot by your own gun, or a person you know being shot with it is way higher.

I'm not a gun person, although I do admit when I came back to New Orleans to check on my house 1 week after Katrina struck I had a pistol & a pump action shotgun. It certainly made me feel safer.
Very, very true.

Good points.

Im thinking that there must be something seriously wrong in American Society if you need a firearm to feel safe.

Well, sure from our European point of view people who worship guns in such a a way look like dangerous freaks. My only trip to Florida was spoilt by people who constantly advised us to beware of crime and avoid most places labelled as "unsafe". Only in South Africa did I get the same feeling of violence and paranoia.
I understand that living in some places of the USA, people with a gun feel safer. But anyway everything should be done by the US govt and responsible citizen to ban guns and decrease the level of violence in society. I read that there is a big campaign in UK right now to make people handle their knives to the police. That is a good thing. The less weapons in the population, the safer people of a country are.

Im thinking that there must be something seriously wrong in American Society if you need a firearm to feel safe.

I dunno, I don't own a gun and I feel plenty safe. While they make people feel safe, I don't think they're actually necessary to be safe, with a few inner city neighborhoods as the exception.

Im thinking that there must be something seriously wrong in American Society if you need a firearm to feel safe.Gun ownership is not as pervasive as you think. I don't know anyone, besides police officers, who owns a gun.

Gun ownership is not as pervasive as you think. I don't know anyone, besides police officers, who owns a gun.
Are you serious?

I own close to 20 myself. Wait....you're in NY, aren't you? That would explain it...

The less weapons in the population, the safer people of a country are.
Not in America, Astra.

The problem in America is how ridiculously easy it is to obtain an illegal weapon. Some gun manufacturers would go out of business were it not for the millions of guns which "go illegal" in just one or two transactions. The background check system is a joke. I have a clean criminal record. I can make more money as a straw buyer than I can working on Wall Street.

In NJ, I don't allow my kids in the houses of people who carry (Prae, I woudn't even let them near your freakin zip code). Frogger, give me a holler when the violent crime rate crime rate in Florida gets even close to the rates here in NY and NJ. Hell will freeze over (or Chuck Schumer will be President) before it approaches the rates in other democracies such as: Canada. Japan. Germany. England. Scotland. Ireland. France. Spain. Sweden. Switzerland. Norway. Belgium. Singapore. I'd list them all but you get the point. The gun situation in America is a textbook "Failed Program" that will take decades to dig out of. And Jeb Bush is a tool, a liar, and a steaming turd.

I don't think there is any solution regarding guns in america - there are simply too many on the streets, not just handguns but powerful assault machine guns. Just a few weeks ago in New Orleans 5 teenage kids in a SUV at around 5am in the morning got their car riddled with sub machine gun fire. They all died. They obviously had some issue with the killers, but without guns - it might have been a street fight not like a scene from Iraq.

If they really wanted to control the gun situation (which would be practically impossible given how the NRA acts) - then perhaps they could make it hard to buy bullets, afterall guns without bullets are useless.

Would it be a question of the poorer the neighboirhood,the more likely it is to be a victim of gun crime,seen a tv show few years ago stating in some citys,I think it was LA,young blackmen were more likly to die from guncrime than anything else?

Are you serious?

I own close to 20 myself. Wait....you're in NY, aren't you? That would explain it...


I'm in New York and I have always had guns. Most of my friends also have guns.

Fluffernutter, if I lived in NJ I would take pains to make sure no one knew it.

New Jersey, sheeesh. Ugh!

Frogger,obviously you know your way round NY,have you ever found yourself in asituation were having a gun would have been an advantage,take away your military experience from the situation.

Yes, I have.

I have been in Manhattan late at night and wished I was carrying a pistol. I remember one time my wife, pregnant at the time, and I had just left the now defunct Steuben Tavern restaurant late at night. As we were walking to our car we were accosted by a group of men in doorags in their twenties. Luckily the restaurant's parking lot security guard came by and dispersed them. He was huge and carrying a baseball bat.

There have been other times in other places when I would have felt much more secure had I been armed.

Wait....you're in NY, aren't you? That would explain it...You know what you're talking about. NY is one of the hardest places to get a carry permit. In the county in which I work, it's nearly impossible. You need a special circumstance.

Frogger, how did you get yours?

Yuor not thinking of packing Brooks,surely.

Yuor not thinking of packing Brooks,surely.
He's a retired police officer.

I'm sure he's been "packing" for many, many years.

I'm in New York and I have always had guns.
Not that you've carried around with you, not legally, anyways...

In Manhattan, as Brooks pointed out, it's almost impossible to get a permit. Goddamned antigun-blue Illinois is the exact same way. No concealed-carry permits allowed, period.

(Prae, I woudn't even let them near your freakin zip code).
:eek:

What's the problem with letting them visit their old uncle Prae, huh? I'd only get 'em good-n-high on the VERY best of single-malt scotches while teaching them how to kill pinkos from a 1000 yards away with high-powered rifles. Now, seriously...what's wrong with that????

Stumped ya, didn't I?
Fluffernutter, if I lived in NJ I would take pains to make sure no one knew it.
A-men.

What a shithole. I'm convinced NJ is the armpit of America.

No offense, Fluffer.

If they really wanted to control the gun situation (which would be practically impossible given how the NRA acts) - then perhaps they could make it hard to buy bullets, afterall guns without bullets are useless.
With the simple purchase of a machine, hand-loading rounds is incredibly easy and very cost effective. You'd have to purchase primers along with a simple press, but outside of that - it's really easy.

A cheap reloading kit like this one would suffice nicely:
http://www.smartreloader.com/ProductImages/lee%20images/leeloader.jpg
Here's a cheap press:
http://www.smartreloader.com/ProductImages/hornady/kits/749997.jpg

There you have it; all the makings for maintaining your own personal arsenal... :)

Prae,havt to admit your in good form at present.
Gonna stick my neck out here a bit.Is it possable that the second amendment has been misinterpreted:
'Right to keep and bear arms.'
'A well regulated Militia,being necessary to the security of a Free State,the right of the people to keep and bear arms,shall not be infringed'.
I aint sure who wrote these words,but isnt it fair to say they were speaking about 'regulated Militia'as being the people armed,but only in a Militia.

With the simple purchase of a machine, hand-loading rounds is incredibly easy and very cost effective. You'd have to purchase primers along with a simple press, but outside of that - it's really easy.

A cheap reloading kit like this one would suffice nicely:
http://www.smartreloader.com/ProductImages/lee%20images/leeloader.jpg
Here's a cheap press:
http://www.smartreloader.com/ProductImages/hornady/kits/749997.jpg

There you have it; all the makings for maintaining your own personal arsenal... :)
If I owned that in Ireland,id get ten years.

He's a retired police officer.
I'm not retired. Just as TV makes you seem 10 pounds heavier, conservatism makes you seem 15 years older.

I'm not retired. Just as TV makes you seem 10 pounds heavier, conservatism makes you seem 15 years older.
:D

OK Brooks,with your experience,do you think law enforcement would be easier and safer,if carrying a firearm in public was illegal.

Gonna stick my neck out here a bit.Is it possable that the second amendment has been misinterpreted...
It's not that it's been misinterpreted; it's been flat-out infringed upon.

Is there an argument for carrying being 'unconstitutional'.

If I owned that in Ireland,id get ten years.
You can order them on-line in America in less than 10 minutes.

Is there an argument for carrying being 'unconstitutional'.
To a degree, yes.

Why it's being argued, I haven't a clue...

I think the right to BEAR arms is pretty cut and dry.

You can order them on-line in America in less than 10 minutes.
sends a link thru 'personal messages',im curious.

OK Brooks,with your experience,do you think law enforcement would be easier and safer,if carrying a firearm in public was illegal.
It's such a tough call. If all guns disappeared tomorrow, yes it would be much safer. But to declare all possession and ownership illegal would still leave the criminals with the guns. The people who would give them up are not the problem.

I think the best thing we can do is vigorously enforce the myriad laws we already have on the books.

Many already "carry", regardless of legal sanction. Depending upon my planned activities, I will often have a reliable bullet launcher with me during my travels. There's been times when it has been a welcome partner.

If I owned that in Ireland,id get ten years.

As well you should. Everyone knows how you Irish drink to excess and get drunk and what nasty drunks you are. The authorities should ban guns, ammunition, butter knives, spoons and even bowls of blanc mange in Ireland.:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

There are times when my activities call for a bullet launcher as a passenger. Certain places require that extra attention be paid to personal safety. My bullet launcher of choice? This one (http://www.sightm1911.com/). It's been a favorite for many years.

As well you should. Everyone knows how you Irish drink to excess and get drunk and what nasty drunks you are. The authorities should ban guns, ammunition, butter knives, spoons and even bowls of blanc mange in Ireland.:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
Stop describing my wife on the net.

With the simple purchase of a machine, hand-loading rounds is incredibly easy and very cost effective. You'd have to purchase primers along with a simple press, but outside of that - it's really easy.

A cheap reloading kit like this one would suffice nicely:
http://www.smartreloader.com/ProductImages/lee%20images/leeloader.jpg
Here's a cheap press:
http://www.smartreloader.com/ProductImages/hornady/kits/749997.jpg

There you have it; all the makings for maintaining your own personal arsenal... :)

I remember not long after I moved to the US seeing a magazine cover with a 10 year old girl on the front holding one of those bullet presses with delight in her eyes. I think that just about sums up America's facination with guns.

Hm,youll like this Frogger:
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13532466,00.html/.

It's not that it's been misinterpreted; it's been flat-out infringed upon.Actually, it's ALL about interpretation. The Second Amendment doesn't specify which types of arms the people have the right to bear. It could be anything from pocket-knives to nuclear weapons. Determining what types of arms are acceptable for people to own is where interpretation comes in and is the main point of contention. There's also the part about a "well-regulated militia," which can be interpreted in numerous ways.

And who has the final say on 'interpretation',the Supreme Court.

yes

Well, these could be banned, for sure. Who needs home-made bullets ?

Any law can be circumvented somehow, but having barriers makes it harder. Making it really tough to get bullets would significantly reduce gun deaths in the US. Although of course this plausible solution has less chance of actually being put in place as I have walking on the moon....without a spacesuit.

Now theres a thought.

"...Who needs home-made bullets ?"

Bullet making is an old tradition here. It's often recycling spent cartridges, thereby saving a fair amount of money. Store bought ammunition is expensive.

But who needs to fire so many ammo ?
I understand one wants a gun to scare burglars. OK. If it works, then a dozen bullets should be enough for a whole life.

The only way to remain proficient with a weapon is to use it. Keeping it in the gun safe & knowing it's there does not mean you know how to operate it when & if the time comes to use it in defending person or property.

astrapol, not all shooting is done at people. We don't all have guns so we can hunt someone down for sport. There are hunters and target shooters. Target shooters especially, use a lot of ammo. When I go to the firing range it is not unusual for me to expend $50 worth of ammo. Reloading cartridges helps keep the cost down.

Question for all the pro-concealed-carry people here;

Are you of the opinion that the more citizens who carry concealed weapons (I am talking about legally carried weapons) the safer our society in general will be?

Not you personally, but all of society.

Perhaps. Should the carrying population achieve a majority of society, then maybe the criminal element would have to take serious notice. Even then, it would take a level of resolve from those carrying to actually use those weapons when situations called for them. Since this is speculaltion, the further development of non-lethal weaponry would probably have more of a deterrent factor. If you & the criminal element were aware that they could be immobilized for a sufficient amount of time to properly restrain the individual while law enforcement types were summoned, then yes.

Perhaps. Should the carrying population achieve a majority of society, then maybe the criminal element would have to take serious notice.

Should the carrying population achieve a majority of society, I would be hesitant to step outside my door.

I would CERTAINLY not go bars or nightclubs ever again.

It is inconcievable to me how any ostensibly sane person living in this country can convince themself that if that if ALL this nation's teachers, day care workers, restaurant patrons, chefs, beauticians, stock brokers, mailmen, truck drivers, dogwalkers, bike messengers, nurses, cash register clerks, fast food employees, bartenders, barbers, wives, husbands, blacks, whites, Jews, protestants, Catholics --in short, virtually ALL Americans-- would only carry a loaded gun at all times, then we would have a "safer" society.

Like I said, speculation. You also chose not to address the non-lethal weaponry that may be developed. How many folks carry mace or similar chemical spray right now & have used it - even if only to display the cansiter to the criminal - successfully? As "almost crimes" never get reported, that number is unknown.

Like I said, speculation.

Ok.

You also chose not to address the non-lethal weaponry that may be developed.

Yes, I did.

I couldn't see what it had to do with the topic of people carrying concealed GUNS.

Should the carrying population achieve a majority of society, I would be hesitant to step outside my door.
I think you'd definitely be safer inside.

Many people think there are two kind of persons : "normal", law-abiding people, and "criminals". And that the threat comes froms criminals, and only them.
The problem is that in fact most crimes are committed by "normal" people. Most homicides are committed by relatives, not by gangster, terrrorists or psychopaths. And most of these homicides would be avoided if the perpetrator had no opportunity to use a weapon.
Not talking about accidents and suicides, of course, that are far more common when people are in possession of a gun.
Banning guns will certainly not end homicides, accidents and suicides, but it will make them much harder to do and necessarily decrease the casualties.

The problem is that in fact most crimes are committed by "normal" people. Most homicides are committed by relatives, not by gangster, terrrorists or psychopaths. And most of these homicides would be avoided if the perpetrator had no opportunity to use a weapon.


.

This is a very good point, and true.
Yet, OTOH, I've read of homicides in which concrete blocks, javelins, axes, jump ropes, bowling balls, automobiles, fishing boats, tennis rackets, butcher knives, cans of paint, cans of Drano, even ketchup bottles were used to end a life.

There's no doubt, that having a gun will make it easier if that's your homicidal mindset and it's within easy reach in your own home--also where most homicides take place.

Go on Ren,tell me how someone was killed with a can of paint.

It was in the James Bond movie Goldfinger.

Virtually anything, in the right hands, can be used as a weapon of murder. It need not be a bullet launcher.

Go on Ren,tell me how someone was killed with a can of paint.

I think you could cave in someone's skull swinging a gallon can of house paint.

An icepick is a handy weapon when thrust into the ear.

I think you could cave in someone's skull swinging a gallon can of house paint.

Wait a minute....rendova claimed she had READ about these murders.

I ---like paulc-- am anxious to see a recital of the written article about all those people who were killed with **cans of paint**.

Tell us, FT, do you personally own any bullet launchers?

Wait a minute....rendova claimed she had READ about these murders.

I ---like paulc-- am anxious to see a recital of the written article about all those people who were killed with **cans of paint**.

Don't be so critical FT, she didn't say she'd read about more than one instance of homicide by paint can. Now a paint can serial killer would be news!

Tell us, FT, do you personally own any bullet launchers?

Yes.

I have a Savage 12 gauge automatic, and I shoot skeet often.

Don't be so critical FT, she didn't say she'd read about more than one instance of homicide by paint can.

She claimed she had read of murders by paint cans. Plural.

Either there was more than one murder, or the killer used more than one can of paint.(and no, a James Bond movie doesn't count)

Paulc's question was legit.

This is a very good point, and true.
Yet, OTOH, I've read of homicides in which concrete blocks, javelins, axes, jump ropes, bowling balls, automobiles, fishing boats, tennis rackets, butcher knives, cans of paint, cans of Drano, even ketchup bottles were used to end a life.


Then I would advise gun owners to change their weapon for a concrete block, javelin, axe, jump rope, bowling ball, automobile, fishing boat, tennis racket, butcher knife, can of paint, can of Drano, or even a ketchup bottle.

The Paint-can Murder

(Small town, Indiana, 1950's, reported in town's newspaper which is not online so I'm unable to post a link)

Woman dropped full gallon of house paint on her husband's head as he lay snoozing peacefully on the couch. To make sure he was good and dead, she dropped it 3 or 4 more times.

She later claimed he had fallen off the couch onto the carpeted floor, thus shattering his skull in half a dozen places.

He was also insured for $300, 000.


Note to husbands---hire a painting crew.

PS. Anyone ever hear about the woman who ground up a tarantula and then put the remains in her husband's food, thus attempting to poison him?
Didn't work......... so she kept trying by various other means until she succeeded...

Or the woman who put chemicals that you use to clean an aquarium in her hubby's Coca-cola?
He died.

You cannot make some of this stuff up.

I work at a library. You would not believe some of the stuff that's been in the papers over the years.

Guns don't kill people? What a joke - Republicans Kill People

How about some more threads based on drunken bumper stickers?:hula:

The Paint-can Murder

(Small town, Indiana, 1950's, reported in town's newspaper which is not online so I'm unable to post a link)

No link necessary.

You've proven your point. Kudos.

I'm just astounded that you remember reading a newspaper story frm the 1950's about a paint can homicide.

Guns don't kill people? What a joke - Republicans Kill People

How about some more threads based on drunken bumper stickers?:hula:

Thank you for your well thought out and thought provoking comment, Cranston36. It is comforting to know that we can always count on you to add so much to a conversation.

Thank you for your well thought out and thought provoking comment, Cranston36. It is comforting to know that we can always count on you to add so much to a conversation.
No kidding.

Virtually anything, in the right hands, can be used as a weapon of murder. It need not be a bullet launcher.
True, but how many drive-by knifings happen in Europe? How many cans of paint would it take to pull off another Columbine? Pull it into the real world and stop being so rhetorical.

I think the best thing we can do is vigorously enforce the myriad laws we already have on the books. Brooks, the laws we currently have on the books have been loopholed to death. How about a new law that says you can only buy one gun a month? ONE A MONTH? How can that possibly infringe on any LAW ABIDING citizen's right to bear arms? It certainly would put most straw buyers out of business. So simple, yet the NRA thinks that would be tearing up the 2nd amendment....

How about a new law that says you can only buy one gun a month? ONE A MONTH? How can that possibly infringe on any LAW ABIDING citizen's right to bear arms?

It wouldn't.

Neither would a law mandating one per year.

(and yes, I am a 2A supporter)

Brooks, the laws we currently have on the books have been loopholed to death. How about a new law that says you can only buy one gun a month?...That's good but that's also been loopholed. People pay for the proper licensing to have themselves qualify as dealers.

True, but how many drive-by knifings happen in Europe? How many cans of paint would it take to pull off another Columbine? Pull it into the real world and stop being so rhetorical.

What are you talking about?

The Murrah Building was taken down with fertilizer. Do you advocate we ban fertilizer, fluffernutter? Maybe people should be allowed to purchase only one bag of cow manuer a month. Maybe bags of manuer should be registered.

Banning guns is not the answer. Swift and severe punishment of those using guns in the commission of a crime is the answer.

I don't think Fluff was calling for a ban. A dozen guns a year seems pretty adequate.

Banning guns is not the answer

Yeah.........that's probably why nobody's suggesting it.

:rolleyes: :upyours: :rolleyes:

The Murrah Building was taken down with fertilizer. Do you advocate we ban fertilizer, fluffernutter? Maybe people should be allowed to purchase only one bag of cow manuer a month. Maybe bags of manuer should be registered.


The Murrah Building wasn't blown up by bags of cow shit Frogger. I highly doubt you could make anything except a stink bomb out of a bag of manure.

Do you advocate we ban fertilizer, fluffernutter?

I will wager that if 30,000 Americans a year were being killed by it, (as they are by firearms) there might be some advocacy for placing sensible controls on it.

Fertilizer sales is controled here,used to make bombs out of it.

Banning guns is obviously the answer, or at least drastically restraining their purchase and use. It is probably too late to do it in the USA, or at least it would require a lot of courage.

Fertilizer sales is controled here,used to make bombs out of it.

Yes, but Frogger ---ignorantly-- was talking about *fertilizer* in the form of cow manure.

Which is vastly different from the form of fertilizer (granular urea) used to make the bomb that went off at the Murrah building.

You guys may not want to admit it (or even look at it this way), but Frogger hit the nail on the head with this:
Banning guns is not the answer. Swift and severe punishment of those using guns in the commission of a crime is the answer.
You may disagree, but I firmly believe he's absolutely right. In the end, that's all it comes down to.

I guess Freethinker and Vilepagan don't understand sarcasm. We'll just have to add that to the long list of things they don't understand.

If you want to stop crime using firearms, don't register the firearms, register the bullets. When a firearm is purchased it should be shot into a block of gelatin and the bullet cateloged and saved. All firearms leave a distictive 'fingerprint' on bullet casings. In that way the gun that was used in the commission of a crime could be easily traced.

Fully agreed.

To the first statement, the second, or both?

Swift and severe punishment of those using guns in the commission of a crime is the answer.
We already have that. We have a incarcerated a larger percentage of our population than any other democracy (at a cost of billions every year BTW). We are the only such democracy that still executes hundreds of its citizens every year. So, Prae, quite obviously, it's really NOT the answer. In England they let some criminals out for weekends and holidays for pity's sakes. And they still have LESS violent crime than us; a lot less. How is that possible?