Maybe bags of manuer [sic] should be registered.
Guns should be registered the same as cars and dogs and cheeseburger stands. I have a license on the back of my Boxter which I renew every other year without grousing that "the government is try to ban all cars." Grow up and deal with it.

You guys may not want to admit it (or even look at it this way), but Frogger hit the nail on the head with this:

You may disagree, but I firmly believe he's absolutely right. In the end, that's all it comes down to.

I agree as well Prae. Enforcement is the key.

I guess Freethinker and Vilepagan don't understand sarcasm. We'll just have to add that to the long list of things they don't understand.

Thanks for the jab Frogger. Having a bad day?


If you want to stop crime using firearms, don't register the firearms, register the bullets. When a firearm is purchased it should be shot into a block of gelatin and the bullet cateloged and saved. All firearms leave a distictive 'fingerprint' on bullet casings. In that way the gun that was used in the commission of a crime could be easily traced.

I wonder here if you're intentionally posting something erroneous so when I point it out you can take another jab at me...

Oh well...

Your above statement would be accurate if you substitute "cartridge(s)" for "bullet(s)".

We already have that. We have a incarcerated a larger percentage of our population than any other democracy (at a cost of billions every year BTW). We are the only such democracy that still executes hundreds of its citizens every year. So, Prae, quite obviously, it's really NOT the answer. In England they let some criminals out for weekends and holidays for pity's sakes. And they still have LESS violent crime than us; a lot less. How is that possible?

"The problem is not in our stars dear Brutus, but in ourselves"

But what makes us so different? Same disgruntled minorities, "anti-Christian" culture, gangsta rap, violent movies, video games etc etc etc. Why only us? Americans are not truly all that different.

But what makes us so different? Same disgruntled minorities, "anti-Christian" culture, gangsta rap, violent movies, video games etc etc etc. Why only us? Americans are not truly all that different.

I think we have a very different heritage and outlook than most Europeans. We respect self-reliance and are taught as youngsters to stand up for ourselves. We don't have a cultural respect for authority figures. Our history is replete with gun-toting, rugged individualists conquering the wilderness. Our heroes are almost always rather well-armed guys bucking the system in some way, or making it on their own against all odds. We like to fight our own battles, and all too often we fight them with guns.

I think its called ballistics.

In England they let some criminals out for weekends and holidays for pity's sakes.

Governor Michael Dukakis tried that. One of the people he let go for weekends was Willie Horton a convicted first degree murderer who was serving life without parole. When he went home for the weekend he proceeded to brutally rape a young woman multiple times.

Vilepagan,

There are two types of marks that have to be considered.

Mark #1 The mark left by the firing pin on the cartridge itself. I referred to this mark when I mentioned casings.

Mark #2 The marks found on the bullet itself. These marks are referred to as land and groove and are the result of the rifling of gun barrels. These marks are distinctive to each individual gun. If the person has to first have a bullet fired from his gun into a gelatin block there will be information on record as to the distinctive marks his gun leaves.

Another method of bullet identification is to stamp an identifying mark on each bullet. Since the supply of bullets usually last no more than five years and often much less, by the year 2011 or so we should be able to identify most bullets sold in the country.

Vilepagan,

There are two types of marks that have to be considered.

Mark #1 The mark left by the firing pin on the cartridge itself. I referred to this mark when I mentioned casings.

Mark #2 The marks found on the bullet itself. These marks are referred to as land and groove and are the result of the rifling of gun barrels. These marks are distinctive to each individual gun. If the person has to first have a bullet fired from his gun into a gelatin block there will be information on record as to the distinctive marks his gun leaves.

Yeah thanks. :)


Another method of bullet identification is to stamp an identifying mark on each bullet. Since the supply of bullets usually last no more than five years and often much less, by the year 2011 or so we should be able to identify most bullets sold in the country.

It just goes to show that if you really want to shoot someone, you should use a shotgun. :)

Don't like guns? Use this! (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/standard-pod-wrapped.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/pod-link.jsp_A&_DAV=perf&rid=&indexId=cat20024&navAction=push&navCount=0&parentType=index&parentId=cat20024&id=0039077)

Right on the internet too...point and click, then point and shoot...

But what makes us so different? Same disgruntled minorities, "anti-Christian" culture, gangsta rap, violent movies, video games etc etc etc. Why only us?

Because this nation is ----as is demonstrated here daily--- filled to overflowing with macho, **kill-em-all-let-gawd-sort-em-out** types.

The whole phony-assed **Land 'O the Independent Minded Cowboy** mythos.

________________________________________________

Self-deluded sheep in this country are innumerable. Independent minded cowboys, (or ANY independent thinking sort of persons), are exceedingly rare.

Can you buy guns off the internet in the US and recieve it in the mail?

Can you buy guns off the internet in the US and recieve it in the mail?

No. You may only have guns shipped to you if you possess a Federal Firearms License, in other words, if you're a dealer.

Your above statement would be accurate if you substitute "cartridge(s)" for "bullet(s)".
Wow, Vile...

Gettin' technical, ay???

Actually you're both right. And in answer to your question earlier, Frogger, I agreed with your second statement. The one where you stated that we should be cataloging rounds by way of ballistic gelatin. Both the shell casing and the bullet leave a distinctive fingerprint that's unique to that weapon, and the findings should be filed away for reference at any time.

I have a license on the back of my Boxter....
You drive a Porsche Boxter!?!?!

Please tell me it's an "S". Otherwise, I feel obligated to point out that you got ripped off.

No. You may only have guns shipped to you if you possess a Federal Firearms License, in other words, if you're a dealer.
That's exactly right. You need an FFL.

I think we have a very different heritage and outlook than most Europeans. We respect self-reliance and are taught as youngsters to stand up for ourselves. We don't have a cultural respect for authority figures. Our history is replete with gun-toting, rugged individualists conquering the wilderness. Our heroes are almost always rather well-armed guys bucking the system in some way, or making it on their own against all odds. We like to fight our own battles, and all too often we fight them with guns.
You know, I think that's pretty much right on the money.

I think part of the problem is it's quite easy for a society to become violent, but once it's done it's pretty difficult to decrease violence.
Basically, european countries are culturally and economically quite similar to the USA. But, for various (political and historical) reasons gun control is much stricter in Europe, and we see the result : homicides and violent crime are much lower.

But, for various (political and historical) reasons gun control is much stricter in Europe, and we see the result : homicides and violent crime are much lower.
You don't have the shit in your countries that we do in ours. People are pussies, so they won’t state the obvious: our biggest crime areas are black and Mexican, and let's face it - they don't buy their guns from stores. Some of the gangs here do business with gunrunners from South America who provide them with fully automatic Uzi's, HK MP-5's, and TEC-9's. All of which are HIGHLY ILLEGAL, but are being used in drive-by shootings every day. If we could blowtorch LA, we'd see a 40% reduction in violent crime almost immediately.

What I just said other people are afraid to say, and it’s sad.

Praetorian has posted an inconvenient truth that most Americans try to overlook lest they seem racists. Most gun crimes in the United States are committed by Blacks and Hispanics. If one was to take the white gun crime rate only it would be far, far lower.

Do you think gun crime would drop considerably if 'illegals' were deported.

Yes. One of the largest and most violent gangs in the United States is Mara Salvatrucha (MS13) which is composed largely of illegal Salvadoran immigrants.

Deporting all illegals will not solve the gun problem though. There are enough homegrown gangs like the Crips and Bloods to continue the shootings.

If we could blowtorch LA, we'd see a 40% reduction in violent crime almost immediately.


Wow.

40% of all violent crime in America occurs in one city.......?!?!?

Interesting conjecture. LOL.

Goofy.

And childish..........but...interesting

Originally Posted by Vilepagan
I think we have a very different heritage and outlook than most Europeans.
But not most Canadians. Yet they don't have the gun problem that we do. Far from it, as any of the Canadians on this board will attest. Recall in 'Bowling for Columbine' Michael Moore trying the doors of Canadians houses at night and finding them all open.

As Chris Rocks puts it Guns don't kill people. Stupid mother f****** with guns kills people...Maybe we have more stupid people in America...

You don't have the shit in your countries that we do in ours. People are pussies, so they won’t state the obvious: our biggest crime areas are black and Mexican....
Wrong Prae (Your redneck is showing): our biggest crime areas are poor urban neighborhoods, especially in the south, midwest and west coast. Race has little to do with it, it's poverty. Otherwise NYC, with a huge minority population, wouldn't be the safest large city in America. Some of the gangs here do business with gunrunners from South America who provide them with fully automatic Uzi's, HK MP-5's, and TEC-9's. All of which are HIGHLY ILLEGAL, but are being used in drive-by shootings every day. But those guns are not MADE in South America. Quite the opposite, South America is flooded with American guns. The gunrunners are the problem but it's a home-grown problem that Congress refuses to address. So now we're back to the one gun a month law that they refuse to pass. Thank goodness that great "Republican" Mayor Bloomberg is taking up this cause at a different level. let's face it - they don't buy their guns from stores. Gun show loophole, internet sales to fake "dealers" - both brought to you by the gun lobby and their lapdogs in Congress. If we could blowtorch LA, we'd see a 40% reduction in violent crime almost immediately.
A exaggeration. London has all the same problems you mention, along with religious terrorism and soccer hooliganism. Yet little of the violence.

Governor Michael Dukakis tried that. One of the people he let go for weekends was Willie Horton a convicted first degree murderer who was serving life without parole. When he went home for the weekend he proceeded to brutally rape a young woman multiple times.
Frog-brain; you miss my point entirely. I was not suggesting letting criminals out of jail on weekends. I have stumps in my back yard smarter than you.

But those guns are not MADE in South America. Quite the opposite, South America is flooded with American guns.

We do make lots of guns in this country, but the Uzi is Israeli, the HK is a German product I believe, and I'm not sure who makes the TEC-9. It is possible that these guns are manufactured in other countries under license.

One of the largest and most violent gangs in the United States is Mara Salvatrucha (MS13) which is composed largely of illegal Salvadoran immigrants. Oh and none of this has anything to do with the US filling Salvadore with massive amounts of weapons and death squads during the 80's...

I like how everyone pretends everything isn't interconnected (not that it happening here but it happens almost everywhere)....

Uzi IMI Israel
HK Keckler Koch-Germany
Tec-9 AB Sweden and under license by Interdynamic, Miami FL.

Canadians houses at night and finding them all open.

I don't lock my doors because I'm afraid someone is going to kill me. I lock my doors because I don't want someone running off with my stuff.

You don't have the shit in your countries that we do in ours.

Remember the riots in France last fall ? Imagine the death toll we would have had if guns were available as easily as in the USA ?

In England they let some criminals out for weekends and holidays for pity's sakes. And they still have LESS violent crime than us; a lot less. How is that possible?



Governor Michael Dukakis tried that. One of the people he let go for weekends was Willie Horton a convicted first degree murderer who was serving life without parole. When he went home for the weekend he proceeded to brutally rape a young woman multiple times.


Frog-brain; you miss my point entirely. I was not suggesting letting criminals out of jail on weekends. I have stumps in my back yard smarter than you.

Of course you weren't. You only mentioned it in passing. Bullshit makes the flowers grow, Fluffernutter. You must have one hell of a garden. Perhaps you should go sit with some of those stumps in your back yard and try to learn a thing or two.

Frogger opposing one example to a general statement is far from convincing. Anyone can find a precise story that may support his opinion.
At this time, most people in this thread have been discussing on the basis of their opinion without much hard data to support their views.

here are a few stats I found on nonpartisan websites, that may add a little objectivity to this debate :

From the US dept of justice stats

(USA-2004)
Homicides are most often committed with guns, especially handguns. In 2004, 55% of homicides were committed with handguns, 16% with other guns, 14% with knives, 5% with blunt objects, and 11% with other weapons.

In 2004, about 70% of all murders, 41% of all robberies, and 19% of all aggravated assaults that were reported to the police were committed with a firearm.

According to data from the National Center for Health Statistics, in 2001 about 39% of the deaths that resulted from firearms injuries were homicides, 57% were suicides, 3% were unintentional, and 1% were of undetermined intent.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/circumst.gif
Arguments include brawls due to the influence of narcotics or alcohol,
disagreements about money or property and other arguments.

Felony types include homicides committed during a rape, robbery, burglary, theft, motor vehicle theft, arson, and violations of prostitution and commercial vice laws, other sex offenses, narcotic drug laws, and gambling laws.

As you see, the victims of gangs and felony are the smaller figure. This clearly shows that "professionnal" murderers are not the first cause of homicide in the USA.

At last :
murder, per capita

(1998-2000, Nationmaster :http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita&int=-1)

#1 Colombia 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia 0.201534 per 1,000 people
(…)
#24 United States 0.042802 per 1,000 people
(…)
#40 France 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
(…)
#43 Australia 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
(…)
#46 United Kingdom 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
(…)
#55 Ireland 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
(…)
#60 Japan 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar 0.00115868 per 1,000 people

Astrapol,

Statistics are one of the world's most manipulatable things.

The statistic on gang activity deals with gang vs gang activity not all the other activities with which gangs are involved. Who do you think is dealing the narcotics? Who do you think is running the prostitution business? Who do you think is doing the car jacking, etc.?

Today's gangs are not like the gangs of years ago that were concerned with protecting their own little piece of turf against incursions by outsiders. Today's gangs are violent criminal groups that consider a gun to be a tool the same way a carpenter considers a hammer to be a tool or a plumber a pipe wrench.

Astrapol,

Statistics are one of the world's most manipulatable things.


Maybe but at least they afford basis for reflexion. If Prae could give us precise figure about the link between immigration and crime, or if you could provide any figure showing that gangs are the first cause of homicides in the USA, please do.

Note that I am not trying to deny the threat of gangs and organized crime : I am fully aware that they reprensent a real danger for both american and european societies.

I just wanted to give a little more data about the issue we are debating. Feel free to post any figure that supports your views (as far as they come from reliable sources).

Why only us? Americans are not truly all that different.

Why?
Billy the Kid. Jesse James. John Dillinger. Pretty Boy Floyd. Al Capone. John Gotti. Albert Anastasia. "Lucky" Luciano.

These men are heroes and well thought of. I know of no other country which glorifies its crooks the way we do.


http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/1105/johnniegx0.jpg
John Dillinger, classy American crook. "Dillinger's dead..... I guess the cops won again......." As a matter of fact, it'll be 72 years ago Saturday that he was gunned down in Chicago. There will be a memorial service in honor of the dead man, as there is every year. What other country does this?

Wow.

40% of all violent crime in America occurs in one city.......?!?!?

Interesting conjecture. LOL.

Goofy.

And childish..........but...interesting
You're right - it was an exaggeration. It probably would've been more accurate in the 25-30% range. Your point is well taken.

Please tell me it's an "S". Otherwise, I feel obligated to point out that you got ripped off.
:thumbs:

(My first smiley ever. This deserved it)

Astrapol, I'm not going to say 50%, or 40% or even 25% of violent crimes committed in the U.S. are committed by gang members. I am going to say it is a very significant portion of the total.

Here are some of the statistics you requested.

Perhaps the most threatening aspect of gang proliferation has been the increasing use of firearms. Gang members are shown to possess significantly more guns than other at-risk youth.13 Studies cite "the threat of a rival gang," as the primary factor motivating youth to carry guns. Older youth and young adults are motivated more by the fact that their peers own guns, causing an escalating arms race of guns with greater and greater sophistication and lethality [in some communities]. 14

http://www.safeyouth.org/scripts/facts/gangs.asp

Gang members are responsible for much of the serious violence in the United States.
Teens that are gang members are much more likely than other teens to commit serious and violent crimes. For example, a survey in Denver found that while only 14% of teens were gang members, they were responsible for committing 89% of the serious violent crimes.2
Joining a gang is dangerous. Violent conflict between gangs is common, and gang members are at least 60 times more likely to be killed than the rest of the population.3

http://www.safeyouth.org/scripts/teens/gangs.asp


Firearms. The 1998 survey asked agencies to estimate how frequently gang members in their jurisdictions used firearms in assault crimes: “often,” “sometimes,” “rarely,” or “not at all.” More than half of all respondents (53 percent) said gang members used firearms often or sometimes. As shown in figure 1, firearm use by gang members in assault crimes was much less common in later onset jurisdictions than in earlier onset jurisdictions. A large majority (84 percent) of agencies in the earliest onset group (before 1981) reported that gangs often or sometimes used firearms in assault crimes, compared with only 32 percent of agencies in the latest onset group (1995–96)—a difference of 52 percent.
Table 6: Presence of Racially/Ethnically Mixed Gangs, by Year of Gang Problem Onset, 1996 and 1998 Surveys
Year of Onset* Jurisdictions Reporting Mixed Gangs Average Percentage of Mixed Gangs Reported
Number Percent
1996 1998 1996 1998 1996 1998
Before 1981 56 29 88 52 32 18
1981–85 47 41 80 75 45 38
1986–90 268 212 89 83 49 44
1991–92 145 103 88 82 56 55
1993–94 176 106 85 75 50 48
1995–96 44 31 75 78 40 47
Note: In 1996, respondents were asked “What percentage of the gangs in your jurisdiction are multiethnic or multiracial?” In 1998, respondents were asked to estimate the percentage of gangs in their jurisdictions with a “significant mixture of two or more racial/ethnic groups.”* Because 1998 survey respondents were not asked when their gang problems began, the classification of 1998 respondents by onset category is based on 1996 responses to the year-of-onset question.


http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/jjbul2002_06_1/page2.html

Wrong Prae (Your redneck is showing): our biggest crime areas are poor urban neighborhoods, especially in the south, midwest and west coast. Race has little to do with it, it's poverty.
Okay - it's poverty, Fluffer. :rolleyes:

When compared to the white population, what percentage of blacks and Mexicans live in "poverty" again? Maybe you've never taken the time to glean over the statistics, and then again, maybe like most liberals, you think the words "crime" and "poverty" are synonymous - I don't know. Having said that, did you ever stop and think it might be the child's parenting, or perhaps, just a complete and total disregard for education in general? If these kids have no drive, then, in your opinion, on whose shoulders should the onus lie?
But those guns are not MADE in South America. Quite the opposite, South America is flooded with American guns.
Don't babble about guns until you know WTF you're taking about. They're not "MADE" here either. The South Americans aren't buying Smith and Wesson 6 shooters; they're buying Russian and Chinese made AK-47's, Israeli made Uzi's, Swedish designed TEC-9's, and the wealthy are buying German made MP-5's. They might be STEALING Armalite AR-15's (of course, AR-15's are spec'd for the domestic market in semi-auto), but I can pretty much guarantee they're not legally purchasing any M-16's. Outside of our military or police market, I'd like to see some yahoo with a forged FFL even TRY to get his hands on a FULLY AUTOMATIC SUBMACHINE GUN.

I hate it when the people who know SHIT about firearms imply that they have the dubious distinction of being the sole problem in our criminal underworld. Wake up, dude (your stupid is showing).
So now we're back to the one gun a month law that they refuse to pass. Thank goodness that great "Republican" Mayor Bloomberg is taking up this cause at a different level. Gun show loophole, internet sales to fake "dealers" - both brought to you by the gun lobby and their lapdogs in Congress.
I fully agree that there are some issues that need addressing. I have no problem with "the one gun a month" law.
A exaggeration. London has all the same problems you mention, along with religious terrorism and soccer hooliganism. Yet little of the violence.
London's metropolitan populace is approximately 1/6th the size of LA's. Of course there's "less violence" in London. There are also less gangs, and the English have a tendency to kick out their illegals. The soccer hooligans aren't running drug rings that deal in prostitution and theft. Any one of 'em would die a horrible fucking death in LA the first time they yelled out "Manchester United". Why? Because nobody likes a drunk Brit, I don't care what color you are - it has absolutely nothing to do with soccer OR guns. Guns AREN'T the problem in LA.

It all boils down to this simple concept: guns don't make decisions. Think about it....

Prae
London's metropolitan populace is approximately 1/6th the size of LA's. Of course there's "less violence" in London.
Of course the only way to compare figures is per capita ! But even this way, the USA definitely have a diffrent profile than UK :

Between 1980 and 1984 there were more than three times as many nongun homicides per capita in America than in England (Zimring and Hawkins, 1998). There were over 41,000 nongun homicides and over 63,000 gun homicides in the United States during this period. New York City has had a homicide rate that is 8 to 15 times higher than London’s for at least the last 200 years, long before either city could have had its rates affected by English gun control laws, the advent of dangerous drugs, or the supposedly harmful effects of the mass media (Monkkonen, 2001). Thus, the United States arguably has a high level of violence and homicide independent of firearm availability. Nonetheless, today homicides by a firearm occur in the United States at a rate that is more than 63 times that of England, so firearms, though not the sole source of violence, play a large role in it (Zimring and Hawkins, 1998).

http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309091241/html/11.html

Prae

Of course the only way to compare figures is per capita ! But even this way, the USA definitely have a diffrent profile than UK
I understand that, Astra, but guns aren't the problem. Typically, "poverty" (along with a slew of other problems minorities and illegal aliens have) is the problem....

Astra: Those are some really illuminating statistics you've posted, especially this one... (http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita&int=-1) The US ranks worse than some of the poorest, gang infested, racially diverse hell-holes on the planet. So obviously "strict enforcement of the laws" is not getting the job done. And the fact that this charts the overall murder rate and not just the gun murder rate disproves the twaddle like "...paint cans and baseball bats can kill people too." Well done.

And Prae, it's a 2003 3.2 litre S; what do you think I am, stupid?

Interesting homicide statistics, United States, 2004:


Weapons
Of those incidents in which the murder weapon was specified, 70.3 percent of the homicides that occurred in 2004 were committed with firearms. Of those, 77.9 percent involved handguns, 5.4 percent involved shotguns, and 4.2 percent involved rifles. Approximately 12.4 of the murders were committed with other types or unspecified types of firearms. Knives or cutting instruments were used in 14.1 percent of the murders; personal weapons, such as hands, fists, and feet, were used in 7.0 percent of murders, and blunt objects (i.e., clubs, hammers, etc.) were used in 5.0 percent of the homicides. Other weapons, such as poison, explosives, narcotics, etc., were used in 3.6 percent of the murders. (Based on Table 2.9.)

Victim/Offender Relationships
Of the homicides for which law enforcement provided supplemental data to the UCR Program, the victim-offender relationship was unknown for 44.1 percent of the victims. For the incidents in which the relationships were known, 76.8 percent of the victims knew their killers and 23.2 percent were slain by strangers. Among the incidents in which the victims knew their killers, 29.8 percent were murdered by family members and 70.2 percent were killed by acquaintances. (Based on Table 2.11.) The 2004 data also revealed that 33.0 percent of female victims were killed by their husbands or boyfriends, and 2.7 percent of the male victims were slain by their wives or girlfriends. (Based on Tables 2.4 and 2.11.)

*******************************

Circumstances:

Approximately 23 percent of homicides took place druing the commission of another felony. A whopping 44 percent were due to arguments (money, property). 12 percent were due to brawls or gang related activity.
In other words, a person is much more likely to be killed by a person close to them during an argument, rather than a drive by shooting or Columbine-type incident.
These cases receive much press. why?
Because they are relatively rare.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html

Don't babble about guns until you know WTF you're taking about. I forgot to mention the last thing we can still profitably manufacture in America. The good old-fashioned SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIAL. (http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=sns) You're an afficionado, Prae, how many of those do you keep around the house for self defense? Virtually 100% of these weapons are illegal after one, maybe two transactions. And yet the mighty US of A, the country that put man on the moon, can't seem to do anything about that... seems a bit odd. Failed program. Tech-9s, MP-5's: those manufacturers will be out of business 6 months after we get serious about gun control here in the States. Uzi's, unfortunately, will continue to be made until the day that Osama Bin Ladin puts on a yarmulke.

How many "jersey specials" do you have, nutter? I've been around weapons for decades and have yet to have a sat. nite special offered. Gun dealers I trade with only have the highest quality bullet launchers available. Nobody I know even wants a piece of trash that might not do the job it's called upon to preform.

I've been around weapons for decades and have yet to have a sat. nite special offered.

Well then.

I guess their existence is pure myth.

Well then.

I guess their existence is pure myth.

Pretty much.

At one time punks made zip guns from car antennas and strong rubber bands. Nowadays they walk around with Glocks, Heckler and Kochs and Sig-Sauers, if they aren't sporting Uzis.

Why bother with some knucklehead's version of a gun when the real thing can be had for just a few bucks? If there's a problem, it's that weapons are as easily accessible as packets of bubblegum. The U.S. law enforcement conclave is more interested in busting marijuana smokers than it is illegal weapons dealers.

It appears that Americans are willing to live with a high crime rate in exchange for keeping their guns.

As the charts show, most murders are committed by handguns. Legislation to get rid of/ more strictly control these guns would be next to impossible to enact---seeing as how the outlaw mentality in this country is so prevalent. Getting rid of that mentality would be even more difficult--this country was founded by outlaws and their prevalence remains to this day.

And another thought--would stricter laws bring about a Prohibition-type backlash--that is, make normally law abiding citizens turn to crime (by keeping their guns or buying new ones in a black market?).

Folks, these guns are here to stay.

You can make the good people get rid of their guns. Can you make the bad people get rid of their guns?


It appears that Americans are willing to live with a high crime rate in exchange for keeping their guns.

As the charts show, most murders are committed by handguns. Legislation to get rid of/ more strictly control these guns would be next to impossible to enact---seeing as how the outlaw mentality in this country is so prevalent. Getting rid of that mentality would be even more difficult--this country was founded by outlaws and their prevalence remains to this day.

And another thought--would stricter laws bring about a Prohibition-type backlash--that is, make normally law abiding citizens turn to crime (by keeping their guns or buying new ones in a black market?).

Folks, these guns are here to stay.

You can make the good people get rid of their guns. Can you make the bad people get rid of their guns?

I'm good people and you can't make me get rid of my guns.

I'm good people too, but if the liberals had their way, we would have to hand over our guns, or go to jail.




I'm good people and you can't make me get rid of my guns.

I'm good people and you can't make me get rid of my guns.

And no one is TRYING to make you get rid of all your guns.

Despite the LIES of people like gmsisko on this topic, no liberals, no rightwingers, no libertarians........NOBODY is trying to make you give up all your guns.

That's really not true, Freethinker. There are people who are trying to make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns. That may not presently be the official view of liberals but it is the agenda of some in the liberal establishment.

What makes you branded a liberal,for wanting tougher gun control.

Handguns are banned in these Illinois communities:

Highland Park, Morton Grove, Wilmette, Winnetka.

That's really not true, Freethinker. There are people who are trying to make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns.

Really?!?!?!?!

Name three of them. Three human beings in the United States of America who are on record as advocating that --""make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns"".

That may not presently be the official view of liberals but it is the agenda of some in the liberal establishment.

Really?!?!?!

I would be EXTREMELY anxious to examine your evidence that it is the agenda of "some" in the "liberal establishment" to make you get rid of all your guns.

If by "some", you mean there are a tiny handful of individuals in the U.S., with absolutely ZERO power to do so, have made known their desire for you to "get rid of all your guns", you might be right.

I doubt it, but it is at least possible. I have never HEARD of any of them, but it could be possible.

But i'd like to see you provide evidence of "some" of these people.

There are people who are trying to make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns.I don't doubt that such people exist. But there are also people who want to institute communism, throw all non-whites out of the country, ban the sale of meat, and nuke Baghdad. Are such people worth being overly concerned about? No, not really.

There are those who would love to make me and everyone else hand over their guns.

I will fight that till my last breath.


And no one is TRYING to make you get rid of all your guns.

Despite the LIES of people like gmsisko on this topic, no liberals, no rightwingers, no libertarians........NOBODY is trying to make you give up all your guns.

To your last breath,over a couple of guns,come on now sisko.

There are those who would love to make me and everyone else hand over their guns.

I believe that you actually imagine that there are these people out to confiscate all your guns. But it has no basis in reality.

I'll wait to see if Frogger can name three of them.

3, out of 300 million.

Originally Posted by Frogger
There are people who are trying to make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns.

I don't doubt that such people exist.

I guess its possible.

But IF they do exist, it is some tiny fringe group that virtually no one has heard of, who possesses ZERO power to force every citizen to rid themself of every gun they own.

Oh and none of this has anything to do with the US filling Salvadore with massive amounts of weapons and death squads during the 80's.....
No it doesn't. There are also Russian gangs, Chinese gangs and Mexican gangs, none of whose countries had the same type of involvement with the US.

What makes you branded a liberal,for wanting tougher gun control.There's fiction on both sides and that's just another example (either that or I'm a liberal).

I would have thought,
Tighter gun control,would be the Government clamping down on personal freedom,a more hardline attitude,which would suit the right wing.

Freedom to keep as many guns as you like,would be a 'liberal' view from Government.Things seem to be in reverse here.

If there's a problem, it's that weapons are as easily accessible as packets of bubblegum. The U.S. law enforcement conclave is more interested in busting marijuana smokers than it is illegal weapons dealers.
Agreed 100%, 347fan. Bloomberg sent NYC officers down to Virginia and Georgia to videotape and bust gun shops which sell guns illegally (thru straw buyers). I am willing to bet any amount of money that the meat-heads in Congress will try to throw out those cases.

There are those who would love to make me and everyone else hand over their guns. I will fight that till my last breath. Sisko, pity you don't feel that same way about the other rights that this government is taking away from you. The ones that actually mean something.

I guess their existence is pure myth. Well put FT. Someone should really give a head-up to the thousands of people killed every year by Saturday Night Specials that they can't be reallly dead since Frogger says those guns are a myth.

Bloomberg sent NYC officers down to Virginia and Georgia to videotape and bust gun shops which sell guns illegally (thru straw buyers). I am willing to bet any amount of money that the meat-heads in Congress will try to throw out those cases.

A safe bet.

The fucking rightwing lapdogs in Washington are very subservient to the NRA and its huge gun lobby.

Hence, America continues to remain awash in a sea of easily available firearms.

I would have thought,
Tighter gun control,would be the Government clamping down on personal freedom,a more hardline attitude,which would suit the right wing.

That's really interesting.

I would have thought,
Tighter gun control,would be the Government clamping down on personal freedom,a more hardline attitude,which would suit the right wing.

Freedom to keep as many guns as you like,would be a 'liberal' view from Government.Things seem to be in reverse here.That's true, it goes against the normal "freedom vs. order" paradigm in which a liberal would give priority to freedom and a conservative would give priority to order.

Originally Posted by Frogger
That's really not true, Freethinker. There are people who are trying to make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns.

Ok.

Name three of them. Three people or organizations in the United States of America who are on record as advocating that they intend to --""make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns"".

...people or organizations in the United States of America who are on record as advocating that they intend to --""make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns"".
San Francisco Board of Supervisors (Proposition H)
http://www.sfgov.org/site/election_index.asp?id=33917

But Frogger, this is an anomoly and I don't think it passed.

Coming from SF, how can you be surprised?

San Francisco Board of Supervisors (Proposition H)That's a proposal to ban (with exceptions) handguns, not a proposal to ban all guns for everyone. Still, I wouldn't be surprised to find some folks who would like to do exactly that; no idea is too extreme to lack advocates these days.

That's a proposal to ban (with exceptions) handguns, not a proposal to ban all guns for everyone. Still, I wouldn't be surprised to find some folks who would like to do exactly that

I would.

Freethinker, as soon as you say all or none you are wrong. If you mean almost all or very few say that.

Freethinker, as soon as you say all or none you are wrong. If you mean almost all or very few say that.

Ok.

Per your prior allegation, name three people or organizations in the United States of America who are --""trying to make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns"".

There has been ONE example given, (the SF measure) and it fails miserably to demonstrate what you are claiming, ...........even if it HAD passed by a 100% vote, it would not demonstrate what you have alleged.

Over the years I've met several folks who said all privately owned firearms should be taken away. None of them gave the subject a lot of thought, none of them that I'm aware of are politically active these days.

I have spoken to individuals who say all guns should be banned. I don't speak to too many of them because I tend to avoid such people like I would avoid the plague.

Groups do not come right out and say it because that would be too extreme. They are like the camel's nose in the tent. Just a bit more and a bit more and suddenly the entire camel is in there with you. Same with gun control groups.

Over the years I've met several folks who said all privately owned firearms should be taken away. None of them gave the subject a lot of thought, none of them that I'm aware of are politically active these days.

???

I am quite sure you can find some people (a minute percentage) who, if asked --"Should all privately owned firearms be done away with?" -- would answer yes. But are those same people answering "Yes" doing anything in the slightest to try to force every person in America to give up all their guns??

No.

None that I ever heard of.

Frogger alleged that there are ""some in the liberal establishment** whose agenda includes trying to make him (present tense) and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns.

Those folks you speak of don't seem to be trying at all, if they did not give the subject much thought and are not politically active.

Groups do not come right out and say it .........

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

But you --shrewdly-- have managed to read their minds.

......because that would be too extreme. They are like the camel's nose in the tent. Just a bit more and a bit more and suddenly the entire camel is in there with you. Same with gun control groups.

Ahhh.....I see.

So it's a prophecy.

No factual evidence of it. No person or group that you can name.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm so fucking surprised!

Don't be too upset, Freethinker. One day, if you study really, really hard and if you have the genetic material necessary you too will be able to see that people often don't say what they mean and that groups sometimes have stated purposes they think the public will accept rather than what they really wish.

You just keep trying and maybe one day you will be able to do it. Then again, maybe not. Not everyone can see beyond their nose.

One day, if you study really, really hard and if you have the genetic material necessary you too will be able to see that people often don't say what they mean and that groups sometimes have stated purposes they think the public will accept rather than what they really wish.

Ahhh....I see.

So when you claimed -- ""There are people who are trying to make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns.""........

..what you really meant to say was ----

"There is a movement in America, even though no one in the various gun control groups has ever said it, and no one is saying it now, and even though there is no stated policy of any gun control group to that effect, and even though there is no person and no gun control group who has ever passed legislation to that effect, and even though there is no gun control person and no gun control group proposing any legislation to that effect, in reality it is the secret agenda of these people to TRY AND MAKE ME AND EVERONE ELSE GET RID OF ALL THEIR GUNS!"

Noooooo. I meant there are people in the United States who would like to see all guns banned.

Noooooo. I meant there are people in the United States who would like to see all guns banned.

Ahhh...I see.

Quite a different allegation than what you made previously, when you said --""There are people who are trying to make me and everyone else get rid of ALL their guns.""

I thought you'd backtrack a bit if ever pinned down to telling us who all those people were who were TRYING to "make every person get rid of ALL their guns".

BTW.....there are also people in the United States who believe the Earth is flat.

And --here's the pertinent point-- the Flat Earthers have had (and will have) about the same effect on your ownership of guns as that small number of the populace who "would like to see all guns banned".

One more point. Purely out of curiosity. It is not a challenge, and if you can't do it, ok. No big deal.

I was just wondering......

Can you --as you claim to have knowledge of-- name one (1) person who has said that they'd "like to see" everyone in the U.S. be forced to give up all their guns...........?

I worked for years in a liberal profession in a liberal part of a liberal state and of course I came across people who wanted an end to private gun ownership. I could give you their names but that really wouldn't be right since they have not given me leave to do so.

You can rest assured that I know people who would like to see private gun ownership end. They feel there is no need for people to own guns. They don't mean there is no reason for people to own assault weapons, something in which I am in agreement but no reason for people to own guns of any kind.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my initial post. I am talking about private gun ownership, not guns owned by the police or the military. These people do not want private citizens to own guns.

I could give you their names but that really wouldn't be right since they have not given me leave to do so.

I guess that's a "No", then.

I thought maybe you could name one (1) person who has gone on record as saying that they'd "like to see" everyone in the U.S. be forced to give up all their guns.

You can rest assured that I know people who would like to see private gun ownership end. They feel there is no need for people to own guns.

Ok.

I'd be willing to wager heavily that --on a scale of 1 to 100 of their being able to actually force every person in America to ***give up all their guns***, with 1 being the lowest possibility and 100 being a certainty-- those (unnameable) people you're talking about are a **1** on the scale.


Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my initial post. I am talking about private gun ownership, not guns owned by the police or the military. These people do not want private citizens to own guns.

No, maybe you weren't "clear enough".

Before, your assertion was they were trying to make ****everyone**** get rid of all their guns.

Before, your assertion was that these (unnameable) people were trying to force everyone to give up all their guns.

Now it seems the assertion has slipped even further, to one of -- "Well, I know some people who have SAID that they THINK that people shouldn't own guns".

If you had said THAT orginally, I would have made no contradictory response whatsoever.

I thought maybe you could name one (1) person who has gone on record as saying that they'd "like to see" everyone in the U.S. be forced to give up all their guns.
You must have forgotten about that haughty bitch of a corpulent rug-muncher, Rosie O’Donnell.

Oh - wait a minute, I forgot...she didn't say verbatim that we should give up our guns, so......given the fact that she has a very well documented anti-gun stance......you're most likely right; I suppose it's probably a bit silly and premature for me to assume that she would "like to see" everyone in America give up their firearms. :rolleyes:

Are you for real??? I mean, seriously, if we've determined that guns are the problem, then I declare it open season on blaming silverware for her fat ass.

(Rosie O'Donnell) didn't say verbatim that we should give up our guns, so......given the fact that she has a very well documented anti-gun stance......you're most likely right; it's probably a bit silly and premature for me to assume that she would "like to see" everyone in America give up their firearms.

Silly and premature?.......maybe. Who is to say.

The pertinent fact, however, is that such an assumption is entirely false. Rosie O'Donnell has never given the slightest indication that she wants to see every person in America forced to give up all their guns.

You must have forgotten about that haughty bitch of a corpulent rug-muncher, Rosie O’Donnell.

Actually, for all of the crap she gave Magnum PI and others about being in the NRA, she was cool with her bodyguard carrying. So really, she's more of a massive (literally) hypocrite.

Actually, for all of the crap she gave Magnum PI and others about being in the NRA, she was cool with her bodyguard carrying. So really, she's more of a massive (literally) hypocrite.

Actually, she may be a hypocrite.

But she has never given the slightest indication that she wants to see every person in America forced to give up all their guns.

Actually, for all of the crap she gave Magnum PI and others about being in the NRA, she was cool with her bodyguard carrying. So really, she's more of a massive (literally) hypocrite.
Magnum PI!? LOL. :)

Of course she'd be cool with her bodyguard packing heat. Who doesn't wanna kill that bitch???

The pertinent fact, however, is that such an assumption is entirely false.
Was my "assumption" really off the wall? How can you deny that there's a strong possibility...err, scratch that – PROBABILITY...that given her prior statements she'd "like to see" guns banned?

I mean, is that so much of a stretch??? Have you heard that pumpkin-headed bitch talk about the NRA and our 2nd amendment? She's ENTIRELY anti-gun (unless they’re being used to protect her, I guess), and you're playing a semantics game.

Knock it off.

Well this has really gotten a little silly. Rosie O'Donnell? Puh-leeze. I'm sure there are individuals out there who want to "ban all guns." There are others who think pilots and teachers should be forced to carry guns. And to take it a step further, Prae knows numerous people who think that grown men should be allowed to marry little boys. It is really besides the point what certain in-DUH-viduals think. The question is whether guns prevent crime, not WTF Rosie O'Donnell thinks about them.

Was my "assumption" really off the wall? How can you deny that there's a strong possibility...err, scratch that – PROBABILITY...that given her prior statements she'd "like to see" guns banned?

She'd "like to see" guns banned??

Absolutely. Perfectly valid assumption. SOME guns.

She'd no doubt like to see handguns banned. I would be suprised if she does not want that to happen.

But to propose that ALL be taken away from EVERY person in the US??

She has never suggested it, Prae.

Think of this; If that IS something she thinks should be done, don't you think she would have simply SAID it at some point in time?

I think she has been pretty clear on her views about guns, and she has NOT indicated that she wants to see every person in America forced to give up ALL their guns.