Why would that be.

Well, as long as you're taking advice, how about putting that into proper syntax, form, and grammar so that I can at least understand what you're saying before I dismiss it?

:rolleyes: Don't bother, you'll strain your ego.

we should give carte blanche to the Israelis......

The US has (despicably) already done that.

....and let them destroy Palestine.

They are (despicably) carrying out that process as we speak.

The US has (despicably) already done that.



They are (despicably) carrying out that process as we speak.

Whatever....it's incredible that people think like that. What benefit does the US get if Palestine are destroyed?

The US has constantly worked to try for a solution between Iseal & Palestine, a solution is definately in the interests of the US. The only party stopping a solution has been the palestinian leaders. 100%.

There cannot be any longterm settlement between Israeli and Palestinian as long as the US backs one side,its impossable.Who is backing both sides?

Who is backing both sides?
Brooks,please exlplain.

What benefit does the US get if Palestine are destroyed?

An Israel that is freed up to harass and intimidate the OTHER Middle Eastern countries.

Countries whose oil this country wants to control and/or appropriate.

The US pays Israel billions every year to be the (murderously efficient) enforcer of the Middle East, to keep the Ay-Rabs intimidated and in line.

The US has constantly worked to try for a solution between Iseal & Palestine

Pure lip service.

Sure the current US political leadership (mindful of world opinion) prefers that their pit bull Israel be as calculating and as discreet as possible in destroying them, but do they CARE one whit about the survival of Palestine or the Palestinains???

No.

Q for Drew - When was the last time Israel offered Palestine its internationally recognized borders?

A...never. Don't believe me? look it up.

The US pays Israel billions every year to be the (murderously efficient) enforcer of the Middle East, to keep the Ay-Rabs intimidated and in line.
.

The US gives Isreal lots of money because the US is filled with Jews. You have nothing to back up wild ass claims.

The US gives Isreal lots of money because the US is filled with Jews.
That definitely plays a big part.

The US gives Isreal lots of money because the US is filled with Jews. You have nothing to back up wild ass claims. If by "filled with jews" you mean 1.4% of the population....compare that with the 8.4% atheist, 1.6% non-denonminational and the .6% muslim and your point doesn't exist.

But I can understand your confusion because it doesn't necessarily matter how many of what type of people there are so much as what they control and how they communicate. (just look at the rich, english speaking, anti-chavez minority in venezuela)

1.4% of the population but what % of the wealth? You measure it in $, not headcount.

Maybe you should take your own advice them. You said:

"The US gives Isreal lots of money because the US is filled with Jews"

Not:

The US gives Isreal lots of money because the US is filled with Jewish money

Wow, so when we in the west were living in mud huts, the Middle Easteners had developed an egalitarian society and were living in perfect harmony with one another...

That's interesting. I had no idea you people were so forward thinking.


That just shows how narrow-minded you are when it comes to Islam and its history. I suggest you read this article if you have the time. It's titled Women's Rights: Now and Then...

"Then why is Islam often portrayed as being oppressive towards women? A part is certainly due to the stereotyped image of Muslim women in the media. However, some of it is due to Muslims themselves. This surely is not caused by our religious ideology but rather by our own negligence in understanding our religion."

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=31817

I think the "filled with Jews" phrase doesn't explain it because the vast majority of the jewish vote in the US is automatically Democrat. This administration is not doing this for votes or money.

Brooks,please exlplain.
You said as long as the US backs one side, progress will be impossible.
I was asking for an example of a country that is backing both sides in this conflict. I don't think there is one, so the US is not unusual in this respect.

If by "filled with jews" you mean 1.4% of the population....

Exactly.

I knew that he was completely full of shit with his --""The US is filled with Jews"-- absurdity, but I could not lay hand on the statistics.

I knew that Jews comprised only a tiny portion of the populace.

Thanks for straightening him out.....if such a thing is possible.

You said as long as the US backs one side, progress will be impossible.
I was asking for an example of a country that is backing both sides in this conflict. I don't think there is one, so the US is not unusual in this respect.

The reason why the U.S is a target because they are the biggest supporters of Israel, if America becomes impartial other countries will surely follow. And the fact that they give millions of dollars to a country that use policies illegal in America.

...if America becomes impartial other countries will surely follow. Really? Are any of them in the Middle East?

Really? Are any of them in the Middle East?

Egypt and Jordan have already followed America and have made PEACE with Israel. Saudia Arabia would do anything as long they have money.

You said as long as the US backs one side, progress will be impossible.
I was asking for an example of a country that is backing both sides in this conflict. I don't think there is one, so the US is not unusual in this respect.
OK Thanks,agreed the US is not unusual in this respect,but the situation needs some radical thinking,and the US with its clout would be the best contender for the job,surely.

Why do so many rant about Palestinian hate, and not Israeli? The Israelis kill way more people, target mostly civilians and started the whole mess to begin with. Last I read, there were hundreds dead in Lebanon and over 100 killed in Gaza, almost all civilians. Hezbollah's only responsible for maybe 25 or so deaths.

So it's a numbers game in your eyes? Oh ok - we'll be sure to keep score. The side that kills the least is the winner right?

Why do so many rant about Palestinian hate, and not Israeli? The Israelis kill way more people, target mostly civilians and started the whole mess to begin with. Last I read, there were hundreds dead in Lebanon and over 100 killed in Gaza, almost all civilians. Hezbollah's only responsible for maybe 25 or so deaths.Israel does not target civilians, but their enemies are hiding among them. Also, are you saying right and wrong is determined by a casualty count?

So it's a numbers game in your eyes? Oh ok - we'll be sure to keep score. The side that kills the least is the winner right?

I'm sorry if the facts don't fit your agenda.

I wonder if you could answer my question, instead of responding with a query - why the bias towards 'Palestinian hate'?

I'm sorry if the facts don't fit your agenda.


Wow, incredible.

It's very simple. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. These are the facts you seem to ignore when you focus on numbers.

Anybody in the US should be thanking Israel - Hezbollah is here in the US that is for sure & they take their orders from Iran.

Israel does not target civilians, but their enemies are hiding among them. Also, are you saying right and wrong is determined by a casualty count?

Are you saying it's right to massacre hundreds of civilians to alledgely kill a few enemies (and this coming from someone thousands of miles from the actual conflict, with no knowledge of who's dying, let alone if said enemies are even being targetted)?

Wouldn't that be an example of the subjective morality your lot is always ranting about? That's the biggest example of subjective morality I've seen - it's ok to commit war crimes and massacre civilians and destroy their infrastructure to kill the enemy.

No, it's not. There are specific laws stating you can't wholesale target civilians. Even the pro-Israeli UN is investigating it as a war crime.

A bit oversimplifying things dont you think Drew.

[quote=Deepest Red]I'm sorry if the facts don't fit your agenda.
[quote]

Wow, incredible.

It's very simple. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. These are the facts you seem to ignore when you focus on numbers.

Anybody in the US should be thanking Israel - Hezbollah is here in the US that is for sure & they take their orders from Iran.

'It's very simple' - thanks for clearing that up.

I'm not sure how the IDF could actually use more terror and unleash more murder than the tiny, pathetic, WWII munitions totting Hezbollah, and not be terrorists, but I'll take your word for it. This must be a mystical, metaphysical thing.

Why would the US thank Israel, a lap dog? That would be like thanking their other spoilt pet, England. Pets are there to obey, not thank.

Wow, incredible.

It's very simple. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. These are the facts you seem to ignore when you focus on numbers.


Is Hezbollah a terrorist organization because it's a fact, or because that label has been applied to them by others?

How do you answer that Vile,one mans terrorist,is another mans freedom fighter.

How do you answer that Vile,one mans terrorist,is another mans freedom fighter.

My point exactly.

ter·ror·ist n.

One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.

By this definition, both sides in the present conflict qualify.

Is Hezbollah a terrorist organization because it's a fact, or because that label has been applied to them by others?

Well if you consider hijacking planes, suicide bombers, truck bombs etc terrorism then it's as close to a fact as most people need. Hizbollah have killed plenty of Americans. Yeah lets get the dictionary out....fucking incredible.

The logic that because Israel defends itself from terrorists makes Israel a terrorist too - is bizarre & quite frankly makes zero sense to me.

Why is the US giving Israel a green light to continue? because it's very much in our interests also to see Hizbollah gone. That is if we are actually serious about the so called war on terror.

The small number of civilian losses are a tradegy no doubt, but doing nothing would be an even bigger tradgedy.

The war on terror was a reaction to alQuada attacking the United States,Hezbollah was not involved,apart from that the two organisations have no links whatsoever,but lets look at a few facts.:
Hezbollah launches rockets at Israel,killing civilian,as well as military people.
Israel drops bombs on Lebanon,killing civilians,as well as military people.
Hezbollah provides basic social services to the S.Lebanonese people.
Israel provides all the services to all its people.
Hezbollah terrorises the people of N.Israel.
Israel terrorises the people of S.Lebanon and Gaza.
The difference between the two is:
Israel uses state of the art weapons technology supplied by the United States to destroy Lebanon.

Well if you consider hijacking planes, suicide bombers, truck bombs etc terrorism then it's as close to a fact as most people need. Hizbollah have killed plenty of Americans. Yeah lets get the dictionary out....fucking incredible.

If you can't address the point, then don't try. Of course Hezbollah are terrorists, you state the obvious. The point Drew, is that by the presented definition, Israel also engages in acts of terrorism, which you call "self defense". It may be self-defense, but it's still terrorism.


The logic that because Israel defends itself from terrorists makes Israel a terrorist too - is bizarre & quite frankly makes zero sense to me.

The fact that you think that's what I said is bizarre & quite frankly makes zero sense to me. Israel isn't acting like a terrorist because they're defending themselves, they're acting like a terrorist because of the methods they employ.


Why is the US giving Israel a green light to continue? because it's very much in our interests also to see Hizbollah gone.

Quite true, and that's the only reason.


That is if we are actually serious about the so called war on terror.

Hard to be serious about something that's a joke.


The small number of civilian losses are a tradegy no doubt, but doing nothing would be an even bigger tradgedy.

History will be the judge.

1. Are you saying it's right to massacre hundreds of civilians to alledgely kill a few enemies
2. ...war crimes and massacre civilians and destroy their infrastructure to kill the enemy.
3. No, it's not. There are specific laws stating you can't wholesale target civilians.
4. Even the pro-Israeli UN is investigating it as a war crime.1. As if "massacre" doesn't give away your bias enough, you use the word "allegedly". Are you saying that Israel isn't trying to kill members of Hezbollah. Seriously, explain this.

2. Much like we did in Germany and Japan? Or England to Germany? Or Germany to England? Get a grip, Red. Your own prejudices do not a war crime make.

3. "Wholesale target civilians"? I think if israel had that desire, along with US of A technology, a lot more Lebanese would be dead. Logic?

4. Ya know Red, we can disagree on certain things. No one can say someone else's opinion is wrong. BUT.... when you say "the pro-Israeli UN" you just give yourself away as incurably biased, uninformed or just plain dumb (up to this point, you haven't seemed dumb).

i dont see why people are so shocked to see humans doing what is best for their own interest...

for some reason america backs Israel... and pretty heavily too... so while i might not agree with it unfortunately you have to take the good with the bad sometimes.

Zionist Propaganda: The Hardest Nut to Crack

As a “liberal,” even “treasonous” newspaper,
the New York Times has the curious ability
to suck up to the racist sociopaths in Israel
and here in America and make profuse
if not nauseating excuses for mass murder.


Consider Noah Feldman, not only a law professor at New York University but a “senior fellow” at the Council on Foreign Relations, who writes for the “newspaper of record,” or maybe it should be characterized as the newspaper of pro-Israel propaganda and scandalous apologia for crimes against humanity:

"For its part, Israel is gambling that the right strategy is to make the people who elected Hamas and a government that includes Hezbollah reckon the costs of their representatives’ recklessness.

That is why Israel has targeted not only Hezbollah leaders and strongholds but has also bombed infrastructure that sustains daily life for everybody in Lebanon.

From Israel’s standpoint, this is no longer a fight with nonstate terrorists who are holding their fellow citizens hostage to their tactics.

It is, rather, war between Israel and countries that are pursuing (or tolerating) violent policies endorsed (or at least accepted) by their electorates."


How utterly and criminally disgusting.

If we are to use Feldman’s reasoning, Israel deserves the fate decreed by its most fanatical and racist enemies—all the Jews should be pushed into the sea. Israelis have voted for the most vile criminals and sociopaths over the years, from David Ben-Gurion all the way to Ehud Olmert.

Ben-Gurion thought the Zionists could bribe the Palestinians into selling their land and rights, although he eventually came around to the thinking of Ze’ev Jabotinsky, who advocated using violence against the Palestinians.

Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism, a political movement that would eventually morph into Likud, had not only an affinity for fascism and Mussolini, but irredentism, that is to say stealing land from surrounding states.

As the Israeli people have elected several Likudites over the years—Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir, Benjamin Netanyahu, and Ariel Sharon—and they have consistently and enthusiastically pursued violent policies, and indeed ethnic cleansing, against the Palestinians, if we follow Feldman’s theory the Israeli people deserve likewise treatment.

Including the indiscriminate shooting their grade schoolers, blowing up and bulldozing their homes, throwing thousands of them into prison to be abused and tortured, destroying their agriculture, humiliating them daily at checkpoints, walling them into ghettos, denying them employment, medical assistance, clean water, food, etc.

If we are to buy into Feldman’s criminal idea, this sort of monstrous behavior should be perpetuated against the Israeli people for the next sixty years because they made the mistake of voting for war criminals, in particular the butcher of Sabra and Shatila, responsible for the wholesale slaughter of more than 3,500 defenseless Palestinians.

As well, if we are to use Feldman’s theory, the American people are responsible for similar crimes, as they sheepishly allow the government to not only arm and encourage Israel’s criminal behavior, but also sign a blank check allowing the government to slaughter Iraqis, currently surpassing the 200,000 mark.

In addition, the American people, by allowing the neocons to steal two elections, and not bothering to march en masse on the capitol and demand these obviously rigged elections be reversed (in this regard, it would seem the average Mexican has more cojones), have allowed the United States military, apparently run by psychopaths, to poison the planet with depleted uranium.

Obviously, Noah Feldman is an immoral Zionist apologist, devising excuses to permit the slaughter of Muslims and Arabs, who are considered untermenschen by the Zionists and their neocon collaborators.

In this regard, he is no different than the moral sack of donkey manure Alan Dershowitz, who proposes, in an article published in the “liberal” Los Angeles Times, that we devise a “new vocabulary to reflect the realities of modern warfare,” a lexicon dismissive of innocent civilians, in fact justifying their murder.

For Dersh, a Jewish grade schooler killed by a Katyusha is more important and worthy of compassion than his or her counterpart in a Lebanese village where Hezbollah may operate.

“Both are technically civilians, but the former is far more innocent than the latter…. These differences and others are conflated within the increasingly meaningless word ‘civilian’.

"A word that carried great significance when uniformed armies fought other uniformed armies on battlefields far from civilian population centers. Today this same word equates the truly innocent with guilty accessories to terrorism.”

Indeed, if we accept Dersh’s moral vapidity, the Lebanese children killed in Israel’s latest blitzkrieg—kids comprise fully one third of all victims—deserve to be killed, because of the probability their parents are “terrorists.”

That is to say they resisted Israel’s illegal invasions of their country and its continued border provocations and habitual kidnapping of Lebanese (and thousands of Palestinians) to be held in squalid Israeli prisons and later used as “bargaining chips.”

As the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman, told the reactionary loudmouth Bill O’Reilly, the Zionists consider all Muslims to be terrorists.

Thus, multiplied with the above, the conclusion should be fairly obvious - Feldman, Dershowitz, Gillerman, and likely thousands of other Zionists (and their American supporters, including millions of pretrib Christians) are no different than Nazis.

They used national-ethnic identity markers to determine who lived and who suffered and died under, for instance, Fall Weiß, the blitzkrieg of Poland, eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union.

In a prefect world, or one far less compromised, the Zionist Nazis, embarking on their version of Lebensraum, a reformulation (with religious overtones) of Karl Haushofer’s racist theories, would be facing a reconvened Nuremberg tribunal.

Instead, “liberal” newspapers, and the fascist television network Fox and its emulators, allow them to spew their hatred and demented theories about Jewish civilians who deserve compassion while Muslims and Arabs deserve evisceration and mass graves.

Kurt Nimmo/Another Day in the Empire

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=476

Xiao, UK: Do people feel desperate in Beirut? What do they make of Israeli actions? How about the children in Beirut? Have all the schools closed?

Ghada Mitri: Hello from Lebanon. Desperate isn't the word I would have used. Angry, yes. Betrayed is another word. Worried is yet another. Lebanon, the South and Beirut have seen a lot. The Lebanese are hardy folk. They have a strong belief that this will pass. But even if it does, they will not forget.

Israel has created a lot of hate in the hearts of the young generation of Lebanon, and vindicated the older generations who still remember the past. This young generation born after the war would probably have had a different point of view towards Israel than its elders. But in one fell swoop - Israel has destroyed that.

As for the children of Beirut - they are now living the experiences of their parents. Parents who had thought that the war was over. May you never hear the sound of babies waking up and screaming from fear.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5211976.stm

I am sure Israel has created a lot of hate, but one thing they can't do is act just to keep people happy. They have to act to keep their own citizens safe.

I am sure there is a lot of hate in Israel too for arabs.

The difference is even the radicals in Israel are not going to strap bombs on their kids and send them to appease that hate. The same is not true for the radicals in arab nations.

So what if the lebanese hate Israel? Being hated by arabs is nothing new for Israel. Plus the lebanese will be busy enough rebuilding bridges and so on. Rebuilding that no doubt will be paid for by the US.

I am sure Israel has created a lot of hate, but one thing they can't do is act just to keep people happy.

Israel instigated this conflict. The attack on Lebanon has been planned for over a year, (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MIDEAST.TMP) waitng only for some pretence for which to launch it.

When Hezbollah ---foolishly-- retaliated to the kidnapping of two civilians by the Israelis by capturing two soldiers, it gave Israel the pretext they needed.

http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/images/benladen.jpg

Lebanese view Israel as their own Osama Bin Laden...Too Far? Maybe. Maybe Not.

I bet you could almost find a plan on a back shelf somewhere. A plan for the US to attack Canada if she finds such a plan necessary.

Yes, I'm sure Israel had a plan to attack Uncle Hez. I'm sure the US had a plan for that. I'm sure Canada had a plan for that.

Uncle Hez is the enemy. Is Israel going to sit on her hands, or is she going to be ready to defend herself?

I'd also be willing to bet that Israel has a plan to attack Iran, and others too.

Oh my.


Israel instigated this conflict. The attack on Lebanon has been planned for over a year, (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MIDEAST.TMP) waitng only for some pretence for which to launch it.

When Hezbollah ---foolishly-- retaliated to the kidnapping of two civilians by the Israelis by capturing two soldiers, it gave Israel the pretext they needed.

So what if Israel had plans? Seems like they were right to have such plans, especially as the disarmament of Hezbollah never happened.

Israel didn't instigate the conflict at all - Hezbollah instigated the conflict by capturing 2 soldiers, even other arab nations are blaming Hezbollah, the UN blames Hezbollah. There is no question who started this.

Here's some comments by Jan Egland the head of UN humanitarian efforts

"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children. I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men."

Also - fyi - Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention clearly allows for military strikes against civilian areas illegally used as cover by enemy combatants.

Lebanese view Israel as their own Osama Bin Laden...Too Far? Maybe. Maybe Not.

Why is what the Lebanese people think of Israel important? Israel isn't working it's plans to maximise public opinion in Lebanon.

Why is what the Lebanese people think of Israel important?

Because Israel is killing the Lebanese people. I think it matters how the Lebanese people percieve the attack on their innocent lives. Why does it matter to a jury what the defendant did?

Israel isn't working it's plans to maximise public opinion in Lebanon.

I've noticed that. They are doing quite the opposite.

Because Israel is killing the Lebanese people. I think it matters how the Lebanese people percieve the attack on their innocent lives. Why does it matter to a jury what the defendant did?

I've noticed that. They are doing quite the opposite.

Isreal is killing some Lebanese people - a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the Lebanese people.

Of course they are upset, but their opinion is nothing of relevance in the scheme of it all.

Of course they are upset, but their opinion is nothing of relevance in the scheme of it all.
Where does Hezbollah get their soldiers?

The key point is where do they get their rockets?

There will always be a line 10 miles long of people ready to fight Israel, but unless they have weapons they'll soon get bored & go home.

Also - fyi - Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention clearly allows for military strikes against civilian areas illegally used as cover by enemy combatants.
Now there's some useful information. Gee, article 28 must really piss off people like Vilepagan...

..........................YEP!!!!!................ ........................





Now there's some useful information. Gee, article 28 must really piss off people like Vilepagan...

Now there's some useful information. Gee, article 28 must really piss off people like Vilepagan...
I see you didnt enjoy your vacation haha

Gee, article 28 must really piss off people like Vilepagan...

Your understanding of Article 28 is as flawed as the rest of your reasoning.

While Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations" Article 48 of Protocol I states that "the presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character."

This means the presence of military targets, including arms caches, in civilian areas of Beirut and in villages in the South of Lebanon, does not render those areas acceptable military targets.

Also prohibited under international law are attacks on "civilian objects." These include water-processing plants, such as the Yurin plant, and the grain silo in Beirut Port, both attacked Saturday by Israel. This also applies to the civilian power plants around the country which have come under deliberate attack. Attacks on civilian targets such as food and water storage facilities and power plants may also be considered to be reprisals, banned under Article 52 of Protocol I.

Israel is thus guilty of war crimes. But fuck, who didn't know THAT already.....?!?!?!?

Your understanding of Article 28 is as flawed as the rest of your reasoning.

While Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations" Article 48 of Protocol I states that "the presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character."

This means the presence of military targets, including arms caches, in civilian areas of Beirut and in villages in the South of Lebanon, does not render those areas acceptable military targets.

Also prohibited under international law are attacks on "civilian objects." These include water-processing plants, such as the Yurin plant, and the grain silo in Beirut Port, both attacked Saturday by Israel. This also applies to the civilian power plants around the country which have come under deliberate attack. Attacks on civilian targets such as food and water storage facilities and power plants may also be considered to be reprisals, banned under Article 52 of Protocol I.

Israel is thus guilty of war crimes. But fuck, who didn't know THAT already.....?!?!?!?

Funny coming from the king of flawed thought.

I guess you stopped reading Article 48 and missed the next part which defines what civilian is

"The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations. "