I really do enjoy all the outrage of those who denounce the 'traitors' as portraying the US as having commit serious crimes and atrocities parallel (though possibly not equatable) to the nazis. Who ever could have planted this idea in those 'traitors' minds?

Why US anti-Nazi propaganda of course....
http://www.realitybasednation.com/blog-archives/2005/01/we_sanction_wha.html

(hey at least they leave the guy clothed...)

how classy, another nazi coparison. seriously, if you honestly think we are like nazis in any way you obviously dont know much about nazis, or us for that matter

did you look at the picture?

I didn't say we were acting like Nazi's...the US government did.

(Is your head ready to explode yet?)

A few, untrained guards at Abu Ghraib mistreated some prisoners. Basically they embarrassed them by taking nude pictures of them, having them wear a dog collar and a leash and covering their heads with hoods.

If that rises in the minds of some to equal the Nazi atrocities those people need to have their brains examined.

When it was found that there was abuse, not torture but abuse at Abu Ghraib the authorities investigated, tried and convicted those responsible. If that rises in the minds of some to equal the Nazi response to torture they also need to have their brains examined.

A few, untrained guards at Abu Ghraib mistreated some prisoners. Basically they embarrassed them by taking nude pictures of them, having them wear a dog collar and a leash and covering their heads with hoods.http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/02/15/abughraib6.jpg

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/02/15/abugrahib4_gallery__470x375,0.jpg

If that rises in the minds of some to equal the Nazi atrocities those people need to have their brains examined.http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/02/15/abugrahib3_gallery__470x311,1.jpg

When it was found that there was abuse, not torture but abuse at Abu Ghraib the authorities investigated, tried and convicted those responsible. If that rises in the minds of some to equal the Nazi response to torture they also need to have their brains examined.While I would agree that the abuses at Abu Ghraib pale in comparison to Nazi atrocities I would also say that torture is not too strong a word to describe what happened there. The prisoners were not just frightened and humiliated as Rush Limbaugh and his ilk would have us believe.

While I would agree that the abuses at Abu Ghraib pale in comparison to Nazi atrocities I would also say that torture is not too strong a word to describe what happened there. The prisoners were not just frightened and humiliated as Rush Limbaugh and his ilk would have us believe.

I guess the right wing of the FORUM got silenced after you posted some pictures.

Sedan, the pictures you posted prove nothing. The first picture looks like the man is suffering from the results of gunshot wounds caused by pellets. Those wounds most likely occured before he was captured.

The second picture is of a bloody floor and again proves nothing.

The third picture is unclear but seems to show medical personel treating a prisoner, again, proof of nothing.

Until you come up with some actual proof I will continue to believe that the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib did not rise to the level of torture.

Perhaps this gentleman is just modeling the latest in prison garb?

I've seen the picture before. Unless he was actually tortured with those electrodes it does not rise to the level of torture. Having him 'think' he would be subjected to the electrodes is not physical torture. It is a psychological way of breaking him. Such methods as sleep deprivation, uncomfortable positions, bright lights and loud noises are not classified as torture. Neither is being blindfolded and forced to stand on a wooden box.

Ask the U.S. servicemen who were captured by the North Vietnamese what torture is.

The third picture is unclear but seems to show medical personel treating a prisoner, again, proof of nothing. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/AbuGhraibScandalGraner55.jpg/200px-AbuGhraibScandalGraner55.jpg

Medical treatment?

That shows a soldier who is happy that an enemy has been taken out of action, not torture.

A long time ago,I was arrested and tortured in Ireland,this happened after 3 days of intense questioning and sleep deprivation,the subject they were interested in I knew nothing about,on the third day I was held down on a table and a soaking sandbag was hael over my face,'gives the sensation of drowning',afterwards they realised I knew nothing about the matter in hand,and was released,no scars,no black eyes,nothing,so Id have to sat the picture dosent always tell the story,ponit here is,the Iraqi people believed it.

That shows a soldier who is happy that an enemy has been taken out of action, not torture.

Actually, that shows a soldier who was convicted of mistreating the prisoners under his care.

Vilepagan,

No one is arguing that there were not prisoners mistreated by some of the guards.

That does not rise to the level of Nazi torture.

sure it does, putting panties ona guys head and stacking 3 guys naked on top of each other is the same as sewing two people together ordoing medical experiments on them like removing organs to see how long they can live without their liver

Vilepagan,

No one is arguing that there were not prisoners mistreated by some of the guards.

That does not rise to the level of Nazi torture.


sure it does, putting panties ona guys head and stacking 3 guys naked on top of each other is the same as sewing two people together ordoing medical experiments on them like removing organs to see how long they can live without their liver

You two seem to be suggesting that it's not torture as long as we don't do exactly what the Nazi's did.

Ask the U.S. servicemen who were captured by the North Vietnamese what torture is.What proof do you have that they were tortured?

That shows a soldier who is happy that an enemy has been taken out of action, not torture.Actually, it shows the same guy (Corporal Charles Graner) that you thought was a medic 'treating' a prisoner.

What do you require as proof that Americans were tortured while captive in North Viet Nam other than what has been offered thus far? Do not the statements of those P.O.W.s count for anything?

What do you require as proof that Americans were tortured while captive in North Viet Nam other than what has been offered thus far? Do not the statements of those P.O.W.s count for anything?Excellent! You illustrate my point perfectly.

We have no photographs that 'prove' Americans were tortured in North Vietnam, yet Frogger has no problem believing that they were. Meanwhile we have ample photographic evidence (the worst of which has not been and may never be released) that torture occurred at Abu Ghraib, yet Frogger will not believe that it did unless he is shown photos of torture in progress.

Are you saying that you disbelive the American P.O.W.'s from the Viet Nam conflict were not tortured? Their physical condition upon release should be proof enough for even the strictest of courts.

Are you saying that you disbelive the American P.O.W.'s from the Viet Nam conflict were not tortured?Not at all. My own father was a prisoner in North Vietnam for six years and I have no doubt whatsoever that he and his compatriots were tortured. The point is that we have no photographs of them being tortured, that being Frogger's standard of proof for Abu Ghraib.Their physical condition upon release should be proof enough for even the strictest of courts.Not necessarily. For example, my Dad's back was broken in two places but that could have been attributed to the force of ejection from his plane (as could many other injuries). Nearly every prisoner was badly beaten when captured, whether by military units or (even worse) by pissed-off civilians. These episodes can be blamed for any number of long-term injuries that could otherwise be seen as results of torture in prison. At his lowest point physically he was severely malnourished but the Vietnamese provided more and better food during his last three years of captivity, during which he actually gained 20 pounds, so that also would be hard to prove. Even the fact that their reports of torture match each other in every detail could be discounted by the length of time they had to fabricate their stories. The bottom line here is that a determined skeptic can devise all sorts of explanations for their physical condition that do not include torture in prison.

I spent nearly 3 years in Viet Nam, from Oct '69 - Aug '72. I think about our P.O.W.'s all the time. Not each minute of every day, but certainly once or more daily. At this point in my life I'm not able to do much more than write words that express my sentiments for those that served in a land where I did. I no longer have regular nightmares, but the demons haven't left me completely, even though it's been over 30 years since I left that country. I sincerly hope that your father is able to get a full nights' sleep occasionally.

Sedan,

The title of this thread is Nazis comparing the events in Abu Ghraib to what haappened in Nazi concentration camps. That is simply so much bullshit.

I spent nearly 3 years in Viet Nam, from Oct '69 - Aug '72. I think about our P.O.W.'s all the time. Not each minute of every day, but certainly once or more daily. At this point in my life I'm not able to do much more than write words that express my sentiments for those that served in a land where I did. I no longer have regular nightmares, but the demons haven't left me completely, even though it's been over 30 years since I left that country. I sincerly hope that your father is able to get a full nights' sleep occasionally.Thank you for your words and your service.

He's in his seventies now and usually falls asleep reading in his easy chair. He wakes up around midnight and goes to bed till morning. How well he sleeps I don't know but he doesn't seem overly tired. He's a widower and lives alone in his huge suburban house, but my sister and I each live about twenty minutes away from him and he plans to move into a senior community in another year or so. He travels a lot. So far this year he's been fishing in Canada and Alaska, went to a convention in Las Vegas and visited my brother in Oregon. He takes a sort of nasty pleasure in living far better than than his former captors presumably do.

The title of this thread is Nazis comparing the events in Abu Ghraib to what haappened in Nazi concentration camps. That is simply so much bullshit.I thought 500lbguerilla's intent was to show that how we portrayed the Nazi's in WWII propaganda is remarkably similar to how we ourselves appear today because of Abu Ghraib. Be that as it may, I already said that what happened at Abu Ghraib pales in comparison to what the Nazi's did. What I take issue with is the concerted effort by some on the right to downplay the extent of the crimes committed there. Here are two examples of what I mean:This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/06/opinion/meyer/main616021.shtmlA few, untrained guards at Abu Ghraib mistreated some prisoners. Basically they embarrassed them by taking nude pictures of them, having them wear a dog collar and a leash and covering their heads with hoods.The evidence shows there was a hell of a lot more happening than just embarrassment and having a good time at Abu Ghraib.

Sedan,

The title of this thread is Nazis comparing the events in Abu Ghraib to what haappened in Nazi concentration camps. That is simply so much bullshit.

I agree with sedan in that I think 500's post was more about imagery than a direct comparison of our behavior with the Nazis.

I also have to wonder how anyone can look at the photos from Abu Ghraib and not see torture.

There is a big gapping difference here...

the united states IN NO WAY condones any type of torture against prisoners... so even IF there was torture against prisoners(i'm still leaning toward calling it "misuse")... its not how the society worked..

meanwhile, the Nazis STOOD BY and ENCOURAGED torturing jews... the prisoners there weighed about 90 pounds, i dont see any rail-thin, skeleton-looking people in the photos we are talking about.. and while some of the photos might suggest things... you can't prove it was done AT the camp. So you have theory, don't get that mixed up with a fact.

Are you saying that you disbelive the American P.O.W.'s from the Viet Nam conflict were not tortured? Their physical condition upon release should be proof enough for even the strictest of courts.over your head? or under your nose?

The point was that anti-nazi propaganda was meant to outrage people against their atrocities. The American government thought that the picture of a man being hooded and chained was enough to spur passionate anger in the average american about the treatment prisoners of the Nazis received. I was pointing out that the US is currently engaged in far more atrocious acts yet some oppurtunistic Americans are more then happy to try and explain away torture of fellow human beings.

While viewing those photos also keep in mind that, according to the military, 70-90% of those people are completely innocent.

And how dare there be more outrage by the warmongers in thsi country at the mention of the word Nazi (which in reality hurts absolutly nobody) then the actual torture and murder of POWs.

Sedan, the pictures you posted prove nothing. The first picture looks like the man is suffering from the results of gunshot wounds caused by pellets. Those wounds most likely occured before he was captured. Yeah right Frogger...sure he just happened to be shot 8+ times right around his ass, gimie a break. While were talking about Nazi's I'm sure you'd be one of the "that smell of burning flesh proves nothing" types.

A few, untrained guards at Abu Ghraib mistreated some prisoners. Basically they embarrassed them by taking nude pictures of them, having them wear a dog collar and a leash and covering their heads with hoods.


Just to set the record straight -

They weren't untrained, and they had orders from the top;

At the time the scandal broke, at least a dozen POWs had been murdered in Abu Ghraib. The number is higher now.

Do you have anything to back up your par for the course anti-Americanism, Deepest Red?

oh yea.. i'm SURE the leaders of nations have nothing better to do than sit around and plan out a few guards putting dog collars on prisoners throats.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I also have to wonder how anyone can look at the photos from Abu Ghraib and not see torture.

I have found in my 53 years of living that people possessing a "patriotic" rightwing mentality and worldview can (and DO) willfully blind themselves to anything....anything, if that thing happens to come into conflict with their lifelong indoctrination and conditioning to forever view the U.S.A. only as as "good", ..... and/or "godly" .... and/or "right".

With the huge amount (which no doubt comprises only a fraction of all the evidence, evidence that the Republican powers-that-be have managed to keep {most of} hidden from the gullible populace) of evidence that has surfaced so far, this refusal of Frogger's to recognize torture in what was inflicted on the Abu Ghraib prisoners is a textbook example of that indoctrination.

oh yea.. i'm SURE the leaders of nations have nothing better to do than sit around and plan out a few guards putting dog collars on prisoners throats....

""Documents obtained by the Washington Post show that the senior U.S. military officer in Iraq Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez authorized the use of military dogs, temperature extremes, reversed sleep patterns and sensory deprivation as interrogation methods in Abu Ghraib.[53] In an interview for her hometown newspaper The Signal, General Karpinski claimed to have seen unreleased documents from Rumsfeld that authorized these tactic for Iraqi prisoners"" _______Wikipedia

IOW, there is a wealth of evidence estabishing the fact that *Don Rumsfeld* himself authorized the methods (which were later revealed to be methods of torture) of treating prisoners at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&as_qdr=all&q=rumsfeld+authorized+torture+&btnG=Search

""Documents obtained by the Washington Post show that the senior U.S. military officer in Iraq Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez authorized the use of military dogs, temperature extremes, reversed sleep patterns and sensory deprivation as interrogation methods in Abu Ghraib.

yea... and those probably ARE good ways to get people to talk, do you disagree?

but im talking about putting dog collars on people... "supposedly" humiliating these people... what a joke.

if a country can't get down and dirty, and stick with what they were founded on, then they will soon find themselves off the map... thats what i say.

yea... and those probably ARE good ways to get people to talk, do you disagree?

but im talking about putting dog collars on people... "supposedly" humiliating these people... what a joke.

if a country can't get down and dirty, and stick with what they were founded on, then they will soon find themselves off the map... thats what i say. So then you admit that international law and the geneva convention are merely lies used by powerful countries as excuses to invade weaker ones to kill indescimanantly and steal what they want. I agree. However you murderous outlook is appaling.