More news that will go down like a lead balloon

BAGHDAD — The U.S. military is investigating U.S. soldiers accused of raping an Iraqi woman near their guard post, killing her and three family members and burning their home with the bodies inside.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-fg-iraq1jul01,0,1880027.story?track=mostviewed-homepage

Oh god dammit, not again.

As much as we would like to believe it, every American and every American soldier is not an Angel, but we are a thousand times more moral than the Iraqis that blew up 66 innocent civilians on this very day. Our government is moral and tries to keep moral soldiers while the enemy terrorist are without any morals eventho they claim to be doing Gods work. What can you tell about a God by the deeds of his children?

When we put young kids into such a situation then it's a foregone conclusion that some events like this are going to occur. We will hold people accountable to their actions which is one difference.

The sad thing is that almost all the troops involved have been scarred in some way - you can't experience that type of thing and not be mentally impacted. Then of course 2500 are dead with at least 1 new death per day & tens of thousands are wounded & maimed. The rest are mentally scarred to some degree.

You have to ask yourself - for what?

We had the 9-11 event & this is what we do - it makes really no sense. It's hard to comprehend what good has come of Iraq and really the list of costs & negative impacts to the US are endless.

If we had focued on Afghanistan, probably OBL would be in jail by now, our relationships with other countries would not be in ruins, the level of hatred of the US would not be nearly so high & perhaps the risk of terrorism would be much reduced. Instead we have dramatically increased the risk of terrorism, scarred a generation of young kids in the military, spent billions that could have been used to fund worthy issues in the US like improved education and dramatically reduced the moral authority of the US in the world. Iraq has been an expensive folly that the US will continue to pay for for generations to come.

At this stage we have no choice but to continue this path & hope that in the end we can gain at least some benefit from it.

When we put young kids into such a situation then it's a foregone conclusion that some events like this are going to occur. We will hold people accountable to their actions which is one difference.

The sad thing is that almost all the troops involved have been scarred in some way - you can't experience that type of thing and not be mentally impacted. Then of course 2500 are dead with at least 1 new death per day & tens of thousands are wounded & maimed. The rest are mentally scarred to some degree.

You have to ask yourself - for what?

We had the 9-11 event & this is what we do - it makes really no sense. It's hard to comprehend what good has come of Iraq and really the list of costs & negative impacts to the US are endless.

If we had focued on Afghanistan, probably OBL would be in jail by now, our relationships with other countries would not be in ruins, the level of hatred of the US would not be nearly so high & perhaps the risk of terrorism would be much reduced. Instead we have dramatically increased the risk of terrorism, scarred a generation of young kids in the military, spent billions that could have been used to fund worthy issues in the US like improved education and dramatically reduced the moral authority of the US in the world. Iraq has been an expensive folly that the US will continue to pay for for generations to come.

At this stage we have no choice but to continue this path & hope that in the end we can gain at least some benefit from it.

Normally I would argue against you but yesterday I had dinner with a childhood friend who is retired US Marine Squadren Commander with two sons who are Marine officer vets of Iraq and he thought that Iraq was a big mistake. I never questioned his words.
But in any case we are there and must make the best of it.

Normally I would argue against you but yesterday I had dinner with a childhood friend who is retired US Marine Squadren Commander with two sons who are Marine officer vets of Iraq and he thought that Iraq was a big mistake. I never questioned his words.I can tell you that there are a lot of soldiers that would agree with him. But also a lot that wouldn't.

I agree completely that now we are there we must finish the job. Walking away is not an option at this stage.

I can tell you that there are a lot of soldiers that would agree with him. But also a lot that wouldn't.

Like so many things in life it is not a simple black and white issue and I can't be certain that we should or shouldn't have invaded but I lean to believe that we should have because we played cat and mouse with Saddam for ten years, it was time to shit or get off the pot and it still looks the same. I hate to be wishy washy but here I am.

In hindsight we definately should not have invaded. There were no WMD - no threat at all existed, but hindsight is always 20/20

After watching the UN do virtually nothing for over 10 years while the Iraqi Idiot continued to plunder, it was time to knock him out of business. He ignored every sanction that august world body put on him. While it may not be courtroom quality evidence, he - or parts of his administration - were involved in terrorism - remember the $25K bounty paid to the families of homicide bombers? Would have been nice if more nations had supported the U.S. & Britan's efforts, but so be it. Somebody had to take the initiatve.

After watching the UN do virtually nothing for over 10 years while the Iraqi Idiot continued to plunder, it was time to knock him out of business. He ignored every sanction that august world body put on him. While it may not be courtroom quality evidence, he - or parts of his administration - were involved in terrorism - remember the $25K bounty paid to the families of homicide bombers? Would have been nice if more nations had supported the U.S. & Britan's efforts, but so be it. Somebody had to take the initiatve.

Thats true & taking out Saddam was a good thing, but there are many other issues in the world where we do not take people out. The WMD issue was valid, but as it turned out there were no WMD. I don't think Bush lied to create an excuse to invade, but we are in a fine old mess now 3 years later.

Apparently this rape was pre-mediated, planned over a weeks period. That sounds even more serious

'According to the official, the Sunni Arab family had just moved into a new home in the religiously mixed area about 20 miles south of Baghdad. The Americans entered the home, separated three family members from the woman, then raped her and set fire to her body, the official said. The three others were also slain. A senior Army official who also requested anonymity because the investigation is ongoing said one of the victims was a child .'
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/01/AR2006070100545.html

It saddens me when reading articles of this sort, partly for the accused behaviors, partly for the presumption of guilt - from both the general public and the assigned chain-of-command.

You happily presume the guilt of all the 400 people at Gitmo & for them we don't even have any idea what they did. Don't you think its a bit hypocritical?

You happily presume the guilt ....

Quite an assumption on your part.

Of all the folks captured some 400 wound up at Gitmo. That's fairly selective.

It's not any kind of assumption - it's what you write.

I think you're confusing me with that other old man posting on here.

As time passes, the Iraq war is looking much like the Vietnam war.

I think you're confusing me with that other old man posting on here.

I think you might be right. My apologies.

More news that will go down like a lead balloon

BAGHDAD — The U.S. military is investigating U.S. soldiers accused of raping an Iraqi woman near their guard post, killing her and three family members and burning their home with the bodies inside.
================================================== ==

Sounds like a Charles Manson type thing. A reminder that our troops are a cross-section of human beings. Some good, some bad. It has not as much to do with them being soldiers as it does with them being sorry-ass individuals.

What can you tell about a God by the deeds of his children?

EVERYthing!!!!!!!

The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Dark Ages, the conflict in Northern Ireland, the constant fight against science and rationality that continues to the present day, the Kansas legislature's devotion to "Biblical" values, Catholicism's contribution to the overpopulation problem, the Holocaust, and innumerable religious wars.............they all speak volumes.

__________________________________________________ _______

"Freedom of thought is essential to a democracy and deadly to an organized religion. Hence we see in modern American society---with it's pathological hatred for free thought and it's unflaging promotion of blind "faith"--- the continuing decline of democracy and the incessant promotion of religious belief".

EVERYthing!!!!!!!

The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Dark Ages, the conflict in Northern Ireland, the constant fight against science and rationality that continues to the present day, the Kansas legislature's devotion to "Biblical" values, Catholicism's contribution to the overpopulation problem, the Holocaust, and innumerable religious wars.............they all speak volumes.



Oh yes, single out the Catholics or Christians. The Crusades was a response to Islam taking over Europe and without the crusades Europe would be Islamic today. The Inquisition and the dark ages were black eyes on Christianity but hundreds of years ago. When is the last time anybody was killed in North Ireland, that is a mix of religion and Nationalism.
I don't know about the Kansas devotion to Bibical values but most bibical values are good for society. Today Catholics I know only have one or two children. The Holocaust was National Socialism and not Christianity. You will find that innumerable religious wars are caused by Jihad.

Your post is designed to misrepresent the truth.

The Crusades was a response to Islam taking over Europe and without the crusades Europe would be Islamic today.

The Crusades were to gain control of Jerusalem. The Otoman Empire (Islamics too), many centuries later were the ones trying to advance through South Eastern Europe, there you have the Islamic people in some areas of the balcans.

at this point any iraqi can find the nearest reporter and claim anything and it will be front page news. the media is in such a race to publish the next "allegation" they are practically tripping over each other.

at this point any iraqi can find the nearest reporter and claim anything and it will be front page news. the media is in such a race to publish the next "allegation" they are practically tripping over each other.

that is so damn true.. and then they have idiots like FT who eat it all up like a fat man eating a piece of cake....

Christianity is about love and forgiveness.... you can nit-pick anything and find faults.. but the basic fundamentals are in place... noone ever challenges those...

at this point any iraqi can find the nearest reporter and claim anything and it will be front page news. the media is in such a race to publish the next "allegation" they are practically tripping over each other.

Maybe, but this story came to light via other US soldiers that turned them in.

I'm sure this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of how mentally scarred these kids are. You can't wake up every day and wonder if you are going to die before the end of the day from a hidden bomb & it not mentally screw you up for the rest of your life.

Watch the crimes that committed here in the US when these kids eventually get to be back in the US.

Maybe, but this story came to light via other US soldiers that turned them in.

I'm sure this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of how mentally scarred these kids are. You can't wake up every day and wonder if you are going to die before the end of the day from a hidden bomb & it not mentally screw you up for the rest of your life.

Watch the crimes that committed here in the US when these kids eventually get to be back in the US.

come on drew, these kids are going through nothing worse then the kids who went through Vietnam, Korea, WW2 II and so on and so forth. you are falling into the trap that this is the worst war, ever. In reality I bet a million troop shave cycled through there since the beginning, and having lost 2,500 of them is not a huge number. I will say it again, I have friends who have been there, they didn't come back telling me of being terrified and biting their nails day in and day out. Sure, there are tense moments when you leave the wire, but its not like going over the top for crying out loud.


the point is, these are allegations. Do you know what an allegation is? I am afraid the word allegation is being redefined by our media, like so many other words. The last I checked allegations made the front pages of national enquirer and Star magazine, not the revered NYT. TImes have changed I guess.

come on drew, these kids are going through nothing worse then the kids who went through Vietnam, Korea, WW2 II and so on and so forth. you are falling into the trap that this is the worst war, ever. In reality I bet a million troop shave cycled through there since the beginning, and having lost 2,500 of them is not a huge number. I will say it again, I have friends who have been there, they didn't come back telling me of being terrified and biting their nails day in and day out. Sure, there are tense moments when you leave the wire, but its not like going over the top for crying out loud.


the point is, these are allegations. Do you know what an allegation is? I am afraid the word allegation is being redefined by our media, like so many other words. The last I checked allegations made the front pages of national enquirer and Star magazine, not the revered NYT. TImes have changed I guess.


Most of the people in Vietnam came back screwed up. Iraq is worse than vietnam mentally, because there is no actual enemy - it could be anybody. Vietnam was like that to some degree but nowhere near as bad. Plus - in vietnam the soldiers were insulated, now they all have laptops and can see exactly what is happening.

2,500 is a huge number. How can you just blow off 2500 kids dead as no big deal? Thats as many people as died in 9-11. That's 2500 young kids dead. It's a massive number, especially when you consider Iraq was a mistake, ok I know hindsight is 20/20, but it was a mistake because there were no WMD and had we known that in 2003 the invasion wouldn't have happened. 2500 & counting 2 -3 per day is a HUGE amount of death, not to mention the god knows how many Iraqi's have died. I'm sure if one of your own kids was among the 2500 dead you wouldn't blow off the number so easily & you might even feel a bit outraged that the kid you raised for 20 years died for absolutely NOTHING at all. There is practically no benefit to the US from what is happening in Iraq. No improved security, no positive impact on terrorism (Iraq was never about terrorism). These kids have died to make us less safe.

I agree that rape + burn thing is an allegation, but 4 soldiers are confined over it while the investigation is ongoing - it's 90% certain that it's correct at this stage. It's a terrible story, but it doesn't mean it's a reflection on the military as a whole, it just points to how Iraq is impacting these kids minds. How could we expect anything else - these kids are human and with what they are going thru, all manner of terrible things are going to happen when death is reduced to nothing.

Most of the people in Vietnam came back screwed up. Iraq is worse than vietnam mentally, because there is no actual enemy - it could be anybody. Vietnam was like that to some degree but nowhere near as bad. Plus - in vietnam the soldiers were insulated, now they all have laptops and can see exactly what is happening.

2,500 is a huge number. How can you just blow off 2500 kids dead as no big deal? Thats as many people as died in 9-11. That's 2500 young kids dead. It's a massive number, especially when you consider Iraq was a mistake, ok I know hindsight is 20/20, but it was a mistake because there were no WMD and had we known that in 2003 the invasion wouldn't have happened. 2500 & counting 2 -3 per day is a HUGE amount of death, not to mention the god knows how many Iraqi's have died. I'm sure if one of your own kids was among the 2500 dead you wouldn't blow off the number so easily & you might even feel a bit outraged that the kid you raised for 20 years died for absolutely NOTHING at all. There is practically no benefit to the US from what is happening in Iraq. No improved security, no positive impact on terrorism (Iraq was never about terrorism). These kids have died to make us less safe.

I agree that rape + burn thing is an allegation, but 4 soldiers are confined over it while the investigation is ongoing - it's 90% certain that it's correct at this stage. It's a terrible story, but it doesn't mean it's a reflection on the military as a whole, it just points to how Iraq is impacting these kids minds. How could we expect anything else - these kids are human and with what they are going thru, all manner of terrible things are going to happen when death is reduced to nothing.


lets see, putting emotions aside, 2,500 out of 1 million over 3 years is not that much. considering we are approaching the number of deaths that we sustained in the first 10 minutes of the omaha beach landing I say for a "War" we are doing pretty good. we lost 29,000 men on D day alone, 29,000!!! with 106,000 wounded!!!!


lets face it, the only reason its an issue is because the adminstration stupidly put it into our heads there would be no deaths in the war. if we had gone into it knowing it would be like this we would be saying that it isnt so bad. But, since we cant seem to understand that plans dont ever work as they were intended and all plans that do are contingencys, we are stuck still believeing what was said 3 years ago should play out, and since ithasnt we have lost, and we are not safe, and what if it was your kid? seriously, give the cliches a break

It's not a cliche - these are real lives, with wives, parents, children.

It'd be easier to swallow if they had died for anything. Their deaths unfortuanately have been for nothing.

I can't blow off 2500 deaths so easily as you, I can't compare it to Omaha beach 60 years ago & say well it's not as bad as that. By that logic there is always something worse you can find & blow off pretty much anything.

At what level of death do you think it would start to be a problem for you? 10,000, 15,000, 30,000? What's the number Trav?

what is with this fixation on arbitrary numbers of deaths? you either think 1 is to much or you dont count them until it is over

what is with this fixation on arbitrary numbers of deaths? you either think 1 is to much or you dont count them until it is over

Interesting response there Trav. Says a lot about you.

I don't think a country has ever gone into a war saying they will throw in the towel no matter what once X amount of men have been killed. If there was a country like that, they are probably not around anymore.
I can see it now, we are at the enemys gates when our casualty quota come up. Time to pull back! But we were so close! sorry, that guy there was # 10,000, time to go home.

Who mentioned throwing in the towel? Clearly now we are there we have to stay & people will die. Take the blinders off Trav and actually read the posts.

Does that mean I cannot feel bad that these kids are dying? Especially when they are dying to essentally only fix a mess we created. There is no real value in Iraq or benefit to our security. No WMD existed. If we left then we really would have a problem on our hands.

One of the soldiers was back in the US and has been arrested today

An Army veteran of the fighting in Iraq has been charged in federal court in Charlotte, N.C., with murder and rape in a March 12 attack on an Iraqi family.

Steven Green, who has been discharged from the Army, was arrested in recent days in North Carolina, two federal law enforcement officials said Monday.

The charges against Green grew out of a military investigation involving up to five soldiers in the March rape and killing of the woman in Mahmoudiya and three of her relatives.

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2006/07/03/ap2855875.html

One of the soldiers was back in the US and has been arrested today

An Army veteran of the fighting in Iraq has been charged in federal court in Charlotte, N.C., with murder and rape in a March 12 attack on an Iraqi family.

Steven Green, who has been discharged from the Army, was arrested in recent days in North Carolina, two federal law enforcement officials said Monday.

The charges against Green grew out of a military investigation involving up to five soldiers in the March rape and killing of the woman in Mahmoudiya and three of her relatives.

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2006/07/03/ap2855875.html (http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2006/07/03/ap2855875.html)

dont forget to metion they burned their house down too! allegedly

The military is but a microcosm of society. These folks chose to join the military. Doesn't make them any better or any worse than their neighbors, just volunteers.

lets see, putting emotions aside, 2,500 out of 1 million over 3 years is not that much. considering we are approaching the number of deaths that we sustained in the first 10 minutes of the omaha beach landing I say for a "War" we are doing pretty good. we lost 29,000 men on D day alone, 29,000!!! with 106,000 wounded!!!!

Don't mean to change the subject but your casualty figures for D-Day are wildly inflated Trav.


How many Allied and German casualties were there on D-Day, and in the Battle of Normandy?

“Casualties” refers to all losses suffered by the armed forces: killed, wounded, missing in action (meaning that their bodies were not found) and prisoners of war. There is no "official" casualty figure for D-Day. Under the circumstances, accurate record keeping was very difficult. For example, some troops who were listed as missing may actually have landed in the wrong place, and have rejoined their parent unit only later.

In April and May 1944, the Allied air forces lost nearly 12,000 men and over 2,000 aircraft in operations which paved the way for D-Day.

Total Allied casualties on D-Day are estimated at 10,000, including 2500 dead. British casualties on D-Day have been estimated at approximately 2700. The Canadians lost 946 casualties. The US forces lost 6603 men. Note that the casualty figures for smaller units do not always add up to equal these overall figures exactly, however (this simply reflects the problems of obtaining accurate casualty statistics).

Casualties on the British beaches were roughly 1000 on Gold Beach and the same number on Sword Beach. The remainder of the British losses were amongst the airborne troops: some 600 were killed or wounded, and 600 more were missing; 100 glider pilots also became casualties. The losses of 3rd Canadian Division at Juno Beach have been given as 340 killed, 574 wounded and 47 taken prisoner.

The breakdown of US casualties was 1465 dead, 3184 wounded, 1928 missing and 26 captured. Of the total US figure, 2499 casualties were from the US airborne troops (238 of them being deaths). The casualties at Utah Beach were relatively light: 197, including 60 missing. However, the US 1st and 29th Divisions together suffered around 2000 casualties at Omaha Beach.

Note also that slightly more than 150,000 troops in total were landed on D-Day, approximately half of them American. If 106,000 American soldiers were wounded, that would mean everyone was wounded and ~35,000 of them were wounded twice. :)

http://www.ddaymuseum.co.uk/faq.htm

Some details after the arrest today. Only being around death day in and day out could numb somebody enough to do acts like these.

The rape victim's body was found in the house with three other bodies. According to documents unsealed this morning, other soldiers told military counselors during a combat stress debriefing about the attack.According to the documents, the soldiers, members of the 101st Airborne Division out of Fort Campbell, Ky., saw her during a traffic patrol. They told another soldier to monitor the radio while they went to the home.
While there, Green went into a bedroom with three family members and an AK-47 and closed the door. They heard gunshots and when he emerged, he said: "I just killed them, all are dead," according to the documents.
Then he and another soldier raped the young woman. Afterwards, Green shot her in the head two to three times, soldiers told investigators.
Her body was found burned, the documents said.

Some details after the arrest today. Only being around death day in and day out could numb somebody enough to do acts like these.

so are you saying we should protect everyone from any "death" situations?

wouldn't that mean anyone could push us around?

The terrorists would LOVE it if u were in charge....

No - I'm not saying anything like that at all.

And incidentally - you need to stop using the word terrorists when you talk about Iraq, Iraq never had anything to do with terrorism. Ever.

Don't mean to change the subject but your casualty figures for D-Day are wildly inflated Trav.



Note also that slightly more than 150,000 troops in total were landed on D-Day, approximately half of them American. If 106,000 American soldiers were wounded, that would mean everyone was wounded and ~35,000 of them were wounded twice. :)

http://www.ddaymuseum.co.uk/faq.htm

I stand corrected

Only being around death day in and day out could numb somebody enough to do acts like these.

That's not true. People who have not been around death commit similar crimes. We constantly read in the newspapers about people who rape and murder, who wipe out entire families, even their own families.

Oh yes, single out the Catholics or Christians.

I'm sorry, old reb.

I'm sure it is very painful to you to have your controlling, majority sect in the U.S. --Christianity-- occasionally criticized by 0.01% of the populace.

I did not mean to "single out" your invisible deity, however.

Please allow me to salve your hurt by assuring you that I find ALL imaginary supernatural beings equally ridiculous and distasteful.

Your post is designed to misrepresent the truth.

LOL.

And your refutation of it was to forward the specious claim that -- [i]""The Crusades was a response to Islam taking over Europe"".

Talk about **misrepresenting** the truth.........!!


The Holocaust was National Socialism and not Christianity.

It was fascism, which is pretty much the diametric opposite of socialism.

And Hitler was a Christian.

He was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria and was an altar boy in the Church. Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by the Church. In fact, the Church there felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews, for they considered the Semites the killers of Jesus.

If the dictates of the "perfect" Book of the Christians are to be taken seriously, the "saved" Christian Adolph Hitler is, as we speak, firmly ensconsced in Heaven.

You will find that innumerable religious wars are caused by Jihad.

And you would find, if you were not so willfully blind to it, that the vengeful, monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam ALL spawn innumerable wars.

News related to the topic...the victim of the alleged rape is expected to between the ages of 14 and 20.

U.S. asks to exhume remains of Iraqi girl
By RYAN LENZ, Associated Press Writer

TIKRIT, Iraq - U.S. investigators have asked Iraqi authorities to help them navigate cultural sensitivities to exhume the body of a teenager allegedly raped and murdered with her family by American soldiers, a military official said Saturday.

U.S. Maj. Mark Wright said U.S. authorities are aware that Islamic tradition has strict rules governing exhumation and could require religious leaders to become involved in the investigation.

"You want to be aware of these cultural issues while at the same time making sure that the accused receives proper justice," Wright, a spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, told The Associated Press.

Muslim tradition generally frowns on exhumations, considering them desecration of the remains.

However, Ahmed Taha, the uncle of the dead teen, told AP Thursday that relatives were eager to cooperate with investigators and would allow them to exhume the body of the alleged rape victim, Abeer Qassim Hamza. Her parents and sister were also slain.

Ex-soldier Steven D. Green was arrested last week in North Carolina and has pleaded not guilty to one count of rape and four counts of murder.

Four soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment have been taken to a U.S. military camp in Baghdad for questioning, Wright said. He would not say if those soldiers had been arrested, but another U.S. official said Saturday that several more soldiers would soon be charged. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing.

Based on interviews and records, the U.S. military now believes the woman who Green is accused of raping and killing was between the ages of 14 and 20, Army spokesman Paul Boyce said Friday. While the military initially said she was 20, Boyce said he has seen documents that indicate she could have been about 14.

The rest of the story..http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060708/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_rape_investigation;_ylt=AqoHphuJO21p.0vEXTTza 7YDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTBhZDJjOXUyBHNlYwNtdm5ld3M-

Walking away is not an option at this stage.

You're right, it's not an option as the USUK occupiers will be forced out.

Accused Ex-Soldier Joined Military Amid “Moral Waivers” Increase
The New York Times has revealed new details on Steven Green, the former soldier accused of raping fourteen-year old Abeer Qasim Hamza and killing her, her parents, and five-year old sister. Green enlisted last year just days after leaving jail on his third misdemeanor conviction. He joined the armed forces just as the military increased by nearly half the rate of “moral waivers” to potential recruits.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/14/146251