500lbguerilla
06-12-2006, 09:17 PM
This is a very interesting interview. I've pulled out a snippet but you should read the whole thing:
Dr. Robert Jay Lifton: American Psychological Association Should “Prohibit Any Involvement” of Psychologists in Interrogations
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/12/1320246
...
ROBERT JAY LIFTON: It has to do with a continuing insurgency or resistance in which one has -- the American military has all kinds of technological superiority, but can’t overcome the resistance and becomes vulnerable. Because in that situation you can't identify the enemy. And you see buddies die. You feel vulnerable yourself. You don't have any clear outlet for your energies and your hostility because it's so difficult to find the enemy, and there's likely to be an overreaction, as we’ve seen, when you find someone who you identify, often mistakenly, as the enemy. You can have post-traumatic symptoms that involve not only your own vulnerability and the death of buddies next to one – there’s no greater stress in wartime -- but also the stress caused by the death of Iraqi civilians.
When you talk to, or hear talk, some of the Iraq veterans, Americans coming back from Iraq, especially who have begun to speak out against the war, they talk about large-scale killing of civilians as a form of pain, which they experience, either witnessing it or the fear that perhaps they killed civilians. So we talk about not having any feeling for Iraq’s civilians, but I think this killing of Iraqi civilians has its psychological effects on Americans and that contributes to post-traumatic stress.
AMY GOODMAN: You have the wives of one of the Marines at Haditha saying we're talking about a totally strung out unit. This was in Newsweek. I mean, on drugs, on alcohol.
ROBERT JAY LIFTON: Well, they're strung out because they're under that extreme duress. It's as if they're trapped. There's no exit. That's why, in writing about Vietnam veterans -- and now I would say the same about Americans fighting in Iraq -- they become both victims and executioners. This is what -- these are the two roles that Albert Camus warned us never to assume, always to resist. So they're perpetrators, but they're also victims. And there's something deeply troubling about placing young American men and women in a situation where they're psychologically likely to commit atrocities and be perpetrators, and also, at the same time, be victims of that same situation, in terms of the trauma, or even death, that it may cause them.
AMY GOODMAN: And then a media, in this country, that will not allow one to be talked about by talking about the other. When you talk about them being perpetrators, they say, “How dare you? They're victims.”
ROBERT JAY LIFTON: That's right. The truth is to say both, and one can bring great sympathy to Americans put into that situation. On the other hand, one has to -- anybody has to assume responsibility for what he or she does in that situation. And that's the complicated balance that we need ethically. When I worked with anti-war veterans, it was interesting that in the [unintelligible], they insisted upon taking some responsibility for what happened. But they also said, “it's not just our responsibility, it's the whole damn society for sending us there.”
AMY GOODMAN: Before we get to the whole society, what about the chain of command, and how does that fit in?
ROBERT JAY LIFTON: When you talk about atrocity-producing situations, it's always the foot soldiers who get prosecuted and who are blamed, but the ultimate responsibility has to do with those environments and those who create those environments. And those who create those environments are the military and civilian leaders going right up to the White House. So the responsibility lies at the top of the Department of Defense, and in the White House, and it has to do with how they define, or don't define, torture with policies they establish in relation to counterinsurgency war in Iraq. And with the deceptions they’ve brought forward about the whole situation. So yes, the responsibility is thrust upon the foot soldiers alone all too often. But greater responsibility certainly lies with the higher ups going right up to the top of the Department of Defense and the White House.
...
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/12/1320246
Dr. Robert Jay Lifton: American Psychological Association Should “Prohibit Any Involvement” of Psychologists in Interrogations
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/12/1320246
...
ROBERT JAY LIFTON: It has to do with a continuing insurgency or resistance in which one has -- the American military has all kinds of technological superiority, but can’t overcome the resistance and becomes vulnerable. Because in that situation you can't identify the enemy. And you see buddies die. You feel vulnerable yourself. You don't have any clear outlet for your energies and your hostility because it's so difficult to find the enemy, and there's likely to be an overreaction, as we’ve seen, when you find someone who you identify, often mistakenly, as the enemy. You can have post-traumatic symptoms that involve not only your own vulnerability and the death of buddies next to one – there’s no greater stress in wartime -- but also the stress caused by the death of Iraqi civilians.
When you talk to, or hear talk, some of the Iraq veterans, Americans coming back from Iraq, especially who have begun to speak out against the war, they talk about large-scale killing of civilians as a form of pain, which they experience, either witnessing it or the fear that perhaps they killed civilians. So we talk about not having any feeling for Iraq’s civilians, but I think this killing of Iraqi civilians has its psychological effects on Americans and that contributes to post-traumatic stress.
AMY GOODMAN: You have the wives of one of the Marines at Haditha saying we're talking about a totally strung out unit. This was in Newsweek. I mean, on drugs, on alcohol.
ROBERT JAY LIFTON: Well, they're strung out because they're under that extreme duress. It's as if they're trapped. There's no exit. That's why, in writing about Vietnam veterans -- and now I would say the same about Americans fighting in Iraq -- they become both victims and executioners. This is what -- these are the two roles that Albert Camus warned us never to assume, always to resist. So they're perpetrators, but they're also victims. And there's something deeply troubling about placing young American men and women in a situation where they're psychologically likely to commit atrocities and be perpetrators, and also, at the same time, be victims of that same situation, in terms of the trauma, or even death, that it may cause them.
AMY GOODMAN: And then a media, in this country, that will not allow one to be talked about by talking about the other. When you talk about them being perpetrators, they say, “How dare you? They're victims.”
ROBERT JAY LIFTON: That's right. The truth is to say both, and one can bring great sympathy to Americans put into that situation. On the other hand, one has to -- anybody has to assume responsibility for what he or she does in that situation. And that's the complicated balance that we need ethically. When I worked with anti-war veterans, it was interesting that in the [unintelligible], they insisted upon taking some responsibility for what happened. But they also said, “it's not just our responsibility, it's the whole damn society for sending us there.”
AMY GOODMAN: Before we get to the whole society, what about the chain of command, and how does that fit in?
ROBERT JAY LIFTON: When you talk about atrocity-producing situations, it's always the foot soldiers who get prosecuted and who are blamed, but the ultimate responsibility has to do with those environments and those who create those environments. And those who create those environments are the military and civilian leaders going right up to the White House. So the responsibility lies at the top of the Department of Defense, and in the White House, and it has to do with how they define, or don't define, torture with policies they establish in relation to counterinsurgency war in Iraq. And with the deceptions they’ve brought forward about the whole situation. So yes, the responsibility is thrust upon the foot soldiers alone all too often. But greater responsibility certainly lies with the higher ups going right up to the top of the Department of Defense and the White House.
...
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/12/1320246