Palestinians killed on Gaza beach by Israeli gunboats
By Eric Silver in Jerusalem
Published: 10 June 2006

Israeli naval gunboats killed at least seven Palestinian civilians and wounded about 40 others as they relaxed in the summer heat on a beach in northern Gaza yesterday. Palestinian medical sources said that eight of the dead were from one family. The total included six women and a three-year-old girl.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article754405.ece
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It's actually 10 dead from more recent reports...

And the US response?
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US: Israel has right to defend itself
By JPOST.COM STAFF

The US expressed support for Israel Friday night after apparent Israeli artillery fire caused the death of at least 12 Palestinians on a Gaza coast beach.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said that Israel had the right to defend itself, especially while terrorists were attacking it.

However, McCormack added that Israel must consider the results well and do what was necessary to prevent harming innocent civilians.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1149572651061&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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Yes...defend itself from beach goers...It'd be funny if it didn't involve mass murder.

Oh and this did nothing to the billions in 'aid' the US sends Israel...Our tax dollars continue to flow into foreign banks with stable economies and massive human rights and Geneva convention violations....
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US approves annual aid to Israel

House of Representatives approves allocation of USD 21.3 billion in foreign assistance during 2007, including USD 2.46 billion to Israel, the largest sum received by any country; House rejected proposal to cut aid to Egypt by USD 100 million following arrest of opposition leaders

The annual assistance package to Israel is comprised of USD 2.34 billion in military aid, in addition to USD 120 million in standard economic aid.

House foreign aid legislation must be reconciled with a Senate version before a final bill can go to President George W. Bush for signature.

As of next year the military aid to Israel is set to reach USD 2.4 billion, but regular economic aid will be cancelled.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3260989,00.html
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I called this a while back...No one responded

Israel Marks Independence Day with $1.7 Billion Budget Surplus
http://allforums.net/showthread.php?t=18374&highlight=israel

The US is Israel's bitch.

Israel is claiming it was an accident.

How do you accidently strafe a beach?

I think it was done purposely in an attempt to derail the upcoming referendum in the Palestinian territory. I don't think Israel wants the referendum to pass and is doing everything in its power to subvert it.

Israeli naval gunboats killed at least seven Palestinian civilians and wounded about 40 others as they relaxed in the summer heat on a beach.......

Well hey....they had to kill them.....there might have been rocks lying nearby.

My first impulse was to think it was a horrid accident. Upon further thought I now think it was done purposely in an attempt to further the flames of anti-Israel hatred in Palestine.

The Palestinians are scheduled to vote on a peace referendum in the near future. One thing Israel does not want, despite claims to the contrary is peace with the Palestinians. If there is peace Israel's land grab in Palestine will have to stop. There will be no more building of illegal settlements on Palestinian territory, no more denials of building permits to Palestinians, no more confiscation of Palestinian lands, no more cutting down of Palestinian olive groves, no confiscation of Palestinian wells.

For Israel to achieve its ultimate goal of Eretz Yisrael there has to be a state of conflict with Palestine.

My first impulse was to think it was a horrid accident. Upon further thought I now think it was done purposely in an attempt to further the flames of anti-Israel hatred in Palestine.

Yeap!, Israel needs to keep his enemies attacking, just as US did (North American natives), so they can use that as an excuse to keep killing them to extinction!.

The Jews thousands of years ago did the same thing, steal a land that they argue God gave them!

(Note: had to re-edit it this one to make it clear)
.

Cromagnon, stop being such a Neanderthal. :bombout:

The U.S. did not 'exterminate' any Islamic terrorists before 9/11. In fact it was the reticence of people like William Jefferson Clinton to punish terrorist acts like the attack on the USS Cole and the first World Trade Center bombing that emboldened the terrorist to take down the Twin Towers.

Cromagnon, stop being such a Neanderthal. :bombout:

The U.S. did not 'exterminate' any Islamic terrorists before 9/11. In fact it was the reticence of people like William Jefferson Clinton to punish terrorist acts like the attack on the USS Cole and the first World Trade Center bombing that emboldened the terrorist to take down the Twin Towers.

Didn't say US wants to exterminate Palestinians, Israel does!
.

I notice you edited your post. I was responding to your original post.

I notice you edited your post. I was responding to your original post.

Yes, I did after I answered your comment, but just then to avoid more comments on the same error of interpretation or my writing ...

Israel investigating deaths of Palestinians on beach
Sun Jun 11, 10:50 PM EST


The Israeli military is still trying to determine if shells it fired killed seven members of a Palestinian family picnicking on a beach in Gaza on Friday.

The military has accounted for five of the six shells it fired into Gaza, and said they didn't kill the family.


But investigators aren't sure what happened to the sixth shell. It may have fallen among the Ghalia family.


Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday said he was sorry about the deaths. But chief of staff Dan Halutz said an expression of regret does not mean Israel is taking responsibility, because the investigation is continuing.


The uncertainty about the sixth shell undermines earlier comments Sunday, when a top Israeli general said the country's Armed Forces didn't cause the explosion.


Maj.-Gen. Yoav Galant said Israeli forces stopped firing 15 minutes before the explosion, meaning Israel couldn't have been responsible.


Ceasefire over


Whatever the cause, the deaths have ended the fragile ceasefire in the region.


Following the explosion, the militant Palestinian group Hamas resumed attacks on Israel for the first time in 16 months.


Until Saturday, Hamas - which controls the Palestinian parliament - had honoured an informal ceasefire forged in February 2005 by Ariel Sharon, then Israeli prime minister, and Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority.


The truce had been broken on occasion by other Palestinian militant groups, such as Islamic Jihad, and by Israeli forces, who said they were acting in retaliation.


A day after the explosion on the beach, Hamas militants fired rockets and mortar bombs at southern Israel, including the city of Ashkelon.


Between late Saturday and early Sunday morning, another 17 rockets were fired, wounding a man at a school in the Israeli town of Sderot.


Israeli strike kills two


On Sunday, Israeli aircraft pilots launched strikes that killed two Hamas militants in an attack on a site in Gaza from which the rockets were fired.


As the violence flared, Abbas was trying to convince Hamas to back his plan to hold a referendum on establishing a Palestinian state.


The plan implicitly recognizes Israel's right to exist, which Hamas has so far refused to do despite tremendous international pressure, including the halting of millions of dollars in aid to the Palestinian Authority from the European Union, the United States and others.


Hamas wrestled control of the Palestinian Authority from Abbas's Fatah party in a January election, but Abbas - who was elected separately as president - still retains much power.

Abbas argued that the referendum should be held on July 26, while Hamas leaders said the vote should be delayed because of the beach attack.

Pictures show cost of conflict
Images of 12-year-old Houda Ghalia sobbing on the beach near her dead father's body were beamed around the world, becoming a symbol of the human toll extracted by the fighting.

On Sunday, she met Abbas, and then went to the hospital to see her badly wounded mother.

Houda's uncle asked her to not tell her mother that her husband and six children are dead.

Houda's mother asked about the children by name. Houda said they were all well.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/11062006/3/world-israel-investigating-deaths-palestinians-beach.html
I wanna know when the IDF is going to be considered a terrorist organiztion....

i agree what Cromagnon.Israel is goin g to kill Palestinians and détruit peace accord.

The Palestines target civilians EVERY day while Israel tries to avoid civilian causalities.

With these know facts, France and others rush to blame and condemn Israel without waiting for an investigation. Now that Israel has proved that they are innocent, nobody cares, they prefer to blame the Jews.

I wouldn't put it past the Palestines to set the bomb off to regain some world sympathy that has been lost recently.

According to the findings, expected to be formally released on Tuesday, shrapnel taken from two wounded Palestinians who were evacuated to Israeli hospitals showed that the explosives were not made in Israel, IDF officials said.

Moreover, the investigation noted the absence of a large enough crater at the site of the explosion, as would be expected if an IDF shell had landed there.

The third observation casting doubt on the possibility that IDF shelling was the cause of the Palestinian deaths was that the IDF had accounted for five of the six shells that it fired in the area before the explosion and the shell that was unaccounted for was fired more than 10 minutes before the blast that killed the Palestinians.

On Saturday evening Gaza Division Commander Brig.-Gen. Aviv Kochavi insisted that the sites that were shelled by the IDF were the places from where Kassam rockets were launched. He noted those places were frequently targeted by the IDF, and were known to be dangerous places.

The leading theory currently entertained, suggested that an explosive charge, buried by Palestinians on the Gaza beach to prevent Israeli infiltration, was behind the explosion.

Throughout the whole investigation, army officials complained about the lack of Palestinian cooperation. Unconfirmed reports further suggested attempts by Palestinians to remove shrapnel from the bodies of the wounded, treated in Israeli hospitals, thus impeding the investigation.

The Palestinians originally claimed that the explosion was caused by Naval shelling, but that possibility, as well as the notion of an IAF assault was dismissed early in the investigation.

The Palestines target civilians EVERY day while Israel tries to avoid civilian causalities.

You have no idea what the policies of Israel are regarding Palestinian civilian casualties.


With these know facts, France and others rush to blame and condemn Israel without waiting for an investigation. Now that Israel has proved that they are innocent, nobody cares, they prefer to blame the Jews.

You say we should wait for an investigation to be complete, and then you say Israel has already "proved" her innocence...which is it?


I wouldn't put it past the Palestines to set the bomb off to regain some world sympathy that has been lost recently.

Both sides have proven that they aren't to be trusted, and both sides have people who would be interested in seeing peace fail.

The Palestines target civilians EVERY day while Israel tries to avoid civilian causalities.

That is patently false, old-reb. Yes, Palestinians target civilians but so does Israel. Israel has often knowingly targeted civilians. The major difference is that the targeting of civilians by the Palestinians has been done by individuals and not the government while the targeting of civilians by Israel has been a deliberate government policy.

With these know facts, France and others rush to blame and condemn Israel without waiting for an investigation. Now that Israel has proved that they are innocent, nobody cares, they prefer to blame the Jews.

Just where has Israel proven her innocence? Israel has simply stated that the don't know what happened to the last shell. Even if they don't know what happened to it they have still been caught in a lie since they earlier declared that they had stopped any shelling a quarter hour before the deaths. Having Israel investigate the incident is like having the fox investigate why their are missing chickens. Like the fox, Israel is the main suspect. Any investigation should be conducted by an outside agency, not by the Israelis. Of course this will not happen since then Israel could not control either the investigation or the flow of information.

It is my suspicion that Israel purposely killed those innocent civilians as part of official government policy. There was soon to be a referendum in the Palestinian areas about recognizing Israel and stopping hostilities. This would not be tp Israel's benefit since Israel would then be forced to stop the stealing of Palestinian land and resources. One way to insure the continuation of hostilities and thereby the illegal land grab by Israel would be to commit an atrocity that would enflame the Palestinians. There is too much coincidence to believe that the shelling of the beach was an accident since it so perfectly aided Israeli policy in regards to Palestine.

You have no idea what the policies of Israel are regarding Palestinian civilian casualties.


Israel has considerably more fire power than the palestines therefore they have to be more responsible in protecting civilians, while the Palestines will use anything in their power to kill Jews, they will even blow themselves up just to kill one or two Jews.

Israel, in a geture of peace, pulled out of the Gaza and now the Palestines are bringing in more and more missiles and firing them at Israel. The Pals never stop trying to destroy Israel. It is their duty as Muslims. The Jews duty as Jews is to not be killed by Pals.

The missing shell was the first of five and it was fired further inland than the other four. From the air it could be observed that the beach killing did not make a crater like a shell from the ship would make. The Palestines even admit it wasn't from the ship. The sharpnel found in the victims was not from an Israel shell or any product of Israel.

But then you don't care about the truth anyway, do you?

Israel has considerably more fire power than the palestines therefore they have to be more responsible in protecting civilians, while the Palestines will use anything in their power to kill Jews, they will even blow themselves up just to kill one or two Jews.
wrong...your so full of crap I can smell it over here...
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Since the start of the year, Palestinian militants have fired hundreds of home-made rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israel, killing two Israeli civilians.

The Israeli army has hit back hard, firing some 6,000 shells into Gaza.

Five Palestinian civilians have been killed in these attacks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4763507.stm

Yes they have the responsibility but they never practice it and the US never does anything about their wanton murder of innocents.
But then you don't care about the truth anyway, do you?

Israel, in a geture of peace, pulled out of the GazaNo it wasn't. Israel was in the process of building MORE illegal settlements in the WB then what it removed from Gaza. And immediatly upon removing them it started terrorising the Palistinians with sonic booms every night.

But I don't know why I am wasting time on you. you have already shown that you are a racist who cares nothing about the death of 'non-jews' in Israel.

No it wasn't. Israel was in the process of building MORE illegal settlements in the WB then what it removed from Gaza. And immediatly upon removing them it started terrorising the Palistinians with sonic booms every night.

But I don't know why I am wasting time on you. you have already shown that you are a racist who cares nothing about the death of 'non-jews' in Israel.

When Jews move out of Gaza, you just don't care. You point to some mystical illegal settlements in the WB.

When Jews build homes, it is illegal settlements. What do you call it when Palestines move into the homes of Jews who moved out of Gaza? Are the Jews banned from building homes?

The wall has kept the suicide bombers out so now the Pals fire rockets over the fence to kill Jews.

I am not a racist, a racist hates and desires to kill people because of their race or religion and the Muslims make no bones about it that they want all the Jews converted, killed or removed from the middle east. No room at the inn for infidels.

When Jews move out of Gaza, you just don't care. You point to some mystical illegal settlements in the WB.

When Jews build homes, it is illegal settlements. What do you call it when Palestines move into the homes of Jews who moved out of Gaza? Are the Jews banned from building homes?and you know close to nothing about the situation, refuse to learn more, yet proclaim yourself informed enough to have a valid opinion...

and you know close to nothing about the situation, refuse to learn more, yet proclaim yourself informed enough to have a valid opinion...

Yes, I refuse to be indroctinated by you. I read the news all over the world.

After 9/11, the US waited weeks before blaming anybody because they waited for proof instead of opinion.

The Beach killings sent the propagandist on a frenzy of world condemnation of Israel. By the time the truth comes out it is irrelevent. It happens all the time.

The Pals even admit it couldn't be a shell from the ship but who cares now.

Here is another explosion that the pals tried to blame on Israel.

DEBKAfile reveals: A 107mm Katyusha rocket of 30-35km range blew up in Friday’s Hamas military parade in Gaza, killing 19 Palestinians, injuring 80.

September 23, 2005, 8:18 PM (GMT+02:00)

This surface rocket packs a bigger punch at more than twice the range of Qassam missiles. It is in general Hizballah use, but never before shown in Palestinian hands. Hamas attempted to blame blast on Israel Apache rockets. But Fatah blamed Hamas negligence and demanded an end to the military parades and random shooting. An Israeli military spokesman denied the allegation in an interview over Arabic TV Al Jazeera. Major Eytan Arussi suggested the explosion was caused by illegal weapons the Palestinians had smuggled in from Egypt this week. Hamas had only itself to blame. Earlier, the Palestinian Authority also attributed the blast that killed senior Hamas operatives, including Ahmad Randur, northern chief, to Hamas’ own missiles borne by vehicles in triumphal procession. The Hamas spokesman made no reply to Arussi’s broadcast comment and rebuked al Jazeera for allowing a representative of the “Zionist enemy” to have his say. The Israeli major took this refusal as a confession of Hamas guilt.

Yup...The palistinians just waited on the beach with explosives...waited for an Israeli war ship to cruise by....waited for it to begin firing shells...then murdered a bunch of innocent palistinians because Israel just doesn't kill enough to cause outrage...Then hid one of Israel's shells to trick the IDF into thinking they may have done it...

Wow your on top of the ball there OR. How is it your critical thinking skills are sooo honed to know exactly what happened before anyone else does? Perhaps you should open a school to pass on this amazing snse you have

old-reb, the Israeli settlers have been removed from their illegal settlements in Gaza. That is quite different from being forced from your homes, something that happens to Palestinians on a regular basis.

The Wall is being built entirely on Palestinian territory. Not one inch is being built on Israeli territory. It is a blatant land grab.

Arabs are denied building permits, their wells are confiscated, their olive groves are cut down, their homes are bulldozed. These are not the actions of a nation seeking peace.

Israel, like the U.S. in the 19th century believes it has a manifest destiny. Like the U.S. it is riding roughshod over the rights of the legal inhabitants of land it wants. It was wrong then. It is wrong now.

old-reb, the Israeli settlers have been removed from their illegal settlements in Gaza. That is quite different from being forced from your homes, something that happens to Palestinians on a regular basis.



Look at how biased your statement is. When Israelis are removed it is justice but if Palestines are removed from homes then it is illegal.

I haven't seen where any Palestines were removed from their homes.

The goal of Pals is to remove Israel from the land of Islam. In the land of Islam no infidels are allowed to live in freedom. It might wreck the Islamic image of superrace Muslims and lowly monkey Jews.

Gaza Beach Libel

Following Palestinian claims and the media reports of Israeli culpability in deaths on a Gaza beach, the real story emerges...


It is now becoming clear that, despite the claims of the Palestinians and the international media's rush to blame Israel, the deaths of seven Palestinian civilians on a beach in Gaza on 9 June were not caused by the IDF. Investigations by the IDF and others over the past few days have revealed new evidence that a Hamas mine was in fact the cause of the beach blast:

1) Shrapnel removed from two of the wounded Palestinians evacuated to Israeli hospitals was not from Israeli-made ordinance.

2) No large crater was evident on the beach as would be expected from the impact of an artillery shell landing from above. The blast site would suggest the likelihood of a mine exploding from below the sand rather than above.

3) The IDF fired six shells towards the Gaza area, one of which remained unaccounted for. All of the shells were fired, however, more than 10 minutes before the blast that killed the Palestinians.

It is now increasingly likely, that in true "Pallywood" fashion, as seen in the Mohammed Al-Dura case and the Jenin "massacre" libel, the Palestinians have attempted another cover-up in order to smear Israel:

1) Palestinian Television broadcast doctored scenes showing file footage of Israeli naval vessels shelling Gaza, interspersed with video of the beach victims, despite the fact that the Israeli Navy was not responsible for any shelling at the time.

2) Suspicions were initially raised by the Palestinian refusal to cooperate with Israeli investigators and the remarkably swift cleansing of evidence from the blast scene by Hamas gunmen who arrived shortly after the incident. Palestinian spokespeople usually display parts of Israeli shells to the international media - but not this time.

3) Israeli intelligence suggests that Hamas had mined the beach area in order to prevent Israeli naval commandos from landing there as part of anti-terror operations to prevent Qassam missile launches.

THE MEDIA'S PREMATURE RESPONSE

Even though there was no evidence as to who was responsible, other than Palestinian claims of Israeli culpability for a "massacre," the international media immediately bought into the Palestinian storyline. This, despite the continuing barrage of Qassam missiles, some of which had fallen on Gaza, and the "work accidents" caused by Palestinian explosives detonating prematurely, which should have made journalists think twice. Here are some examples of those who did not:

The Washington Post's headline: Israeli Fire Kills 7 Beachgoers in Gaza

Excerpt: Israeli artillery fire targeting the northern Gaza Strip on Friday killed at least seven Palestinian civilians and wounded 30 others, Palestinian hospital officials and witnesses said.



The New York Times' headline: Errant Shell Turns Girl Into Palestinian Icon

Excerpt: Eleven-year-old Huda unwittingly became a symbol of Palestinian pain and loss during an afternoon picnic with her family on a hot day when a cameraman captured her shrieking "Father, Father, Father!" as she hovered over the bloody bodies of 13 dead or wounded members of her family, hit by what was apparently an errant Israeli artillery shell.


Australia Broadcasting Corporation's headline: Israel faces criticism over Gaza beach shelling

Excerpt: Seven Palestinians died on Friday, when the Israeli military shelled the beach where they were enjoying the Muslim day of rest, an eighth victim died in hospital on Saturday.


CNN's headline: Beach strike shakes Hamas cease-fire

Excerpt: An Israeli navy gunboat fired shells onto a northern Gaza beach Friday, killing at least seven people and prompting the military wing of Hamas to call off a 16-month-old cease-fire with Israel.


The Guardian's headline: Death on the beach: seven Palestinians killed as Israeli shells hit family picnic

Excerpt: A barrage of Israeli artillery shells rained down on a busy Gaza beach yesterday, killing seven Palestinians, three of them children.


The Independent's headline: Palestinians killed on Gaza beach by Israeli gunboats

Excerpt: Israeli naval gunboats killed at least seven Palestinian civilians and wounded about 40 others as they relaxed in the summer heat on a beach in northern Gaza yesterday.

The Times of London's headline: Girl who saw family die on beach becomes icon and media celebrity

Excerpt: In the days since a wild-haired Huda Ghalia was filmed howling with anguish amid a family picnic blown apart by shellfire, she has become an instant symbol of suffering across the Arab world.

Can you post a link?

Can you post a link?
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Gaza_Beach_Libel.asp

It doesnt seem like a cover up by Palestinians but a cover up by Israelies.

It doesnt seem like a cover up by Palestinians but a cover up by Israelies.


I give you facts from an exaustive investigation and you give me your opinion. So be it.

I give you facts from an exaustive investigation and you give me your opinion. So be it.Bwahahhahaaaaaa...sigh

Funny how you never post your sources till pressed...now why could that be....

This has happened with previous extremely high-profile killings, perhaps the most memorable of which was Mohammed al-Dura, where the military set about trying to raise doubts. But the report that they’ve come up with, it has to be said -- it's full of holes. It's based on the idea that, in fact, they were blown up by a Hamas landmine planted under the sand to try and deter Israeli commanders from landing. [Unintelligible] and that is, it would probably be very difficult for Hamas to know where Israeli commanders might land, and the idea would be that they would have several of them, and yet there are no other mines. Perhaps more interesting is that at the time this family was hit by shells -- a shell, which it undoubtedly was -- the Israeli army admits to having fired six shells. Three of them, you can see, landed on the beach, very close by. Probably no more than the closest -- 100 yards away. And essentially the army is then asking people to believe that the -- a sixth shell didn’t land on the family. That by pure coincidence, even though the beach was being shelled at the time, a Hamas mine happened to go off as well in the same area and at the same time.

Compounding this is the fact that the army admits it cannot account for the last of those six shells -- where it landed. And there is a military expert, an ex-Pentagon official from Human Rights Watch, New York-based human rights group here at the moment. He's been looking into this. And he's come to his own conclusion: that it's almost undoubtedly an Israeli shell, based on, firstly the shrapnel, which he – he found a piece of shrapnel that says 155 millimeter on it, which is precisely the size of shrapnel shell that the Israelis use in their Howitzers, and also if you look at the size and the nature of the crater, it’s identical to those on the beach that -- from the other shells, including being lined with a white powder. So I think all of -- on the whole, the evidence points much more to Israeli responsibility.

...

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you: Ha’aretz is reporting today on the IDF probe -- the Israeli Defense Forces probe, saying that the findings that they will come out with have been bolstered by three new findings. One – “the shrapnel. Three people wounded in the blast are now hospitalized in Israel. Shrapnel was apparently removed from their bodies. This is likely to reinforce the conclusion that the explosion was caused by a bomb, rather than a shell.” The crater – “based on photographs, the crater left on the beach by the blast seems to have been made by an explosion from below (a mine), not a hit from above (a shell).” And finally, intelligence – “Israel has amassed considerable information indicating that over the past few weeks, ever since Israeli commandos infiltrated Gaza and killed a rocket-launching cell, Hamas has been systematically mining the northern Gaza beach in an attempt to keep Israeli commandos from landing there again.”

DR. MONA EL-FARRA: First, we found out about shrapnel, locally-made – actually, the shrapnel that has been found at al-Awda hospital, this is Israeli-made. Second, we have the eyewitness -- many eyewitnesses – one of the eyewitnesses I met recently was the ambulance driver of the hospital. He -- he literally explained and described what happened. Third, the Human Rights Watch guy I met personally, and he found shrapnel from Israeli gunshots. Another thing I would like to mention: the Qassam rockets and these things – just very, very primitive devices. It wouldn't injure that number -- 25 or 30 people at least were injured in that incident. So it is for me quite clear that it was Israeli. It was not Palestinian.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/13/140204

I give you facts from an exaustive investigation and you give me your opinion. So be it.

Did you gather these facts yourself?

Reb, you may be right in your interpretation of events, but you don't have access to any information that is unavailable to the general public (I assume), therefore your conclusions are no more or less speculative than anyone else's here. To suggest that you have "facts" and everyone else has mere "opinions" rather innaccurately describes the situation.

The truth is, that neither of us knows anything other than what has been reported in the media. Depending on which side you are more inclined to believe, you can come to the conclusion that it was the fault of the Israelis or the Palestinians.

I will say that it would be very difficult to differentiate a crater made by a buried mine from a crater made by a bursting shell that had buried itself in the sand before exploding.

When I first read guerilla's post I believed that, 'Maybe the Israelis did it' , but then after thinking about it I realized that it is mostly biased fluff. That is what we in the South call, "Spinning a yarn."but I will look at the few key anchor points of the article.

Israel can't account for one of the shells, OK that look suspicious but then if the Israelis were liars then why not say that they accounted for all the shells?

In Guerilla's article an expert is sitting with the writer and he found a piece of shrapnel that says 155 millimeter on it. Hmmm, why wasn't this piece of shrapnel shown and photographed at the explosion site for BBC and the world to see? Hearsay is not allowed in court and this is a world court being tried by the general population of the world.

This expert says that the size and nature of the crater is identical to craters from other Israeli shells. Again it is hearsay from the same dude. Show us photos of craters from arttillery shells and from mines buried below the beach and let us compare.

DR. MONA EL-FARRA: First, we found out about shrapnel, locally-made – actually, the shrapnel that has been found at al-Awda hospital, this is Israeli-made. Second, we have the eyewitness -- many eyewitnesses – one of the eyewitnesses I met recently was the ambulance driver of the hospital. He -- he literally explained and described what happened. Third, the Human Rights Watch guy I met personally, and he found shrapnel from Israeli gunshots.

Again, hearsay. He said she said. A fragment of shell can be analyzed in a lab to determine it's orgin. The Israelis did analyze the fragments. Did this human rights expert analyze the pieces of shrapnel or does he just have magic knowledge.



here is one good piece of information from guerilla's post:
...

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you: Ha’aretz is reporting today on the IDF probe -- the Israeli Defense Forces probe, saying that the findings that they will come out with have been bolstered by three new findings. One – “the shrapnel. Three people wounded in the blast are now hospitalized in Israel. Shrapnel was apparently removed from their bodies. This is likely to reinforce the conclusion that the explosion was caused by a bomb, rather than a shell.” The crater – “based on photographs, the crater left on the beach by the blast seems to have been made by an explosion from below (a mine), not a hit from above (a shell).” And finally, intelligence – “Israel has amassed considerable information indicating that over the past few weeks, ever since Israeli commandos infiltrated Gaza and killed a rocket-launching cell, Hamas has been systematically mining the northern Gaza beach in an attempt to keep Israeli commandos from landing there again.”

Here the Israelis determined by photographs that the crater seems to have been made by an explosion from below (a mine). Now that is not hearsay it is something that can be looked at by the court and the Jury can judge for themselves.

U.S.-trained expert says shell was Israeli

By LAURIE COPANS, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 32 minutes ago


JERUSALEM - A U.S.-trained military expert disputed on Wednesday an Israeli claim that it had nothing to do with an explosion that killed eight Palestinian beachgoers in the Gaza Strip last Friday, an incident that has turned a critical spotlight on Israel's military practices.

Israel released results of its own inquiry, which determined that the blast was not caused by a shell fired from Israeli artillery.

But Marc Garlasco, a military expert from New York-based Human Rights Watch, inspected the damage, the shrapnel and the wounds and came to a different conclusion.

"I'm convinced this was from an Israeli shell," Garlasco said Wednesday in a telephone interview. He said the main question still open is where it came from and when — was it fired by an Israeli artillery piece, as Palestinians charge, or was it buried in the sand, either on purpose by militants, as Israel alleges, or left over from an earlier attack?

Garlasco was the first independent expert to examine the scene, though Israel has doubts about his conclusions and about Human Rights Watch. He was in Gaza doing research for the human rights group when the explosion killed eight people on Friday afternoon, seven of them relatives.

Garlasco is a former intelligence specialist battle damage assessment officer for the Pentagon who has studied conflicts in Bosnia and Iraq. He rankled the Israeli government with a highly critical HRW report on destruction of houses in the Rafah refugee camp in Gaza in 2004. Israeli officials consider the human rights group biased in favor of the Palestinians.

Garlasco said he concluded the explosion was caused by a 155 mm shell of the type Israel uses. He viewed shrapnel collected from the scene by a Palestinian ordinance disposal unit, and in X-rays of Palestinians wounded in the blast.

Maj. Gen. Meir Klifi, who headed the Israeli investigation, said tests on the shrapnel removed from the body of a girl in an Israeli hospital proved it was not from a shell.

"I'm sure that all over that beach there is shrapnel," he told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "So no wonder that there is 155 mm shrapnel to be found."

Israeli army spokesman Capt. Jacob Dallal said Wednesday that the beach area is used by militants, so "this is also a battleground. This area is used for terror groups to launch (rockets) on Israel," noting that a rocket was fired from the area on Wednesday.

Garlasco said more work needs to be done before a solid conclusion can be drawn.

Israeli analyst Gerald Steinberg, who heads a watchdog group called NGO Monitor, charged that Garlasco is not a credible expert, and Human Rights Watch officials have "a long and carefully documented history of exploiting human rights claims to promote a clear anti-Israel political and ideological bias."

Here the Israelis determined by photographs that the crater seems to have been made by an explosion from below (a mine). Now that is not hearsay it is something that can be looked at by the court and the Jury can judge for themselves.ahh but you haven't seen these photos yourself. So how come you don't claim its heresay? maybe its because its what you want to believe rather then what makes sense.

Plus you ignore the fact that the Israelis had fired other shells that hit the beach that day. That they routinely kill Palistinians without reprocussions. The doctors say it was a shell (uper body injusries as oppossed to lower) and, Shit the military even says they can't account for their own shell...

So tell me this OR. If it gets exposed that Israel did murder all these people do you promise not to be such a knee jerk reactionary racist and actually look at the facts of the situation? You always side against the Palistinians, always.

So tell me this OR. If it gets exposed that Israel did murder all these people do you promise not to be such a knee jerk reactionary racist and actually look at the facts of the situation? You always side against the Palistinians, always.

I will get on my knees and crawl to you and kiss your feet and call you the greatest man of truth in the world if such a thing should happen.

old reb

And now Human Rights Watch says they can't dispute the IDF version.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150355528023&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

While sticking to its demand for the establishment of an independent inquiry into a blast on a Gaza beach 10 days ago that killed seven Palestinian civilians, the Human Rights Watch conceded Monday night for the first time since the incident that it could not contradict the IDF's exonerating findings.

On Monday, Maj.-Gen. Meir Klifi - head of the IDF inquiry commission that cleared the IDF of responsibility for the blast - met with Marc Garlasco, a military expert from the HRW who had last week claimed that the blast was caused by an IDF artillery shell. Following the three-hour meeting, described by both sides as cordial and pleasant, Garlasco praised the IDF's professional investigation into the blast, which he said was most likely caused by unexploded Israeli ordnance left laying on the beach, a possibility also raised by Klifi and his team.

So much for that story.

what do you mean? That proves absolutly nothing. And it still asserts that it was an IDF shell. The only difference is that they are saying it 'might be' a old shell rather then a new one. And quite the coincidence since the IDF had just been shellin that exact beach less then 100 meters away...

Jpost isn't reliable. Haaratz is much better.

BTW good job leaving this bit off
"We came to an agreement with General Klifi that the most likely cause [of the blast] was unexploded Israeli ordinance," Garlasco told The Jerusalem Post following the meeting. While Klifi's team did a "competent job" to rule out the possibility that the blast was caused by artillery fire, there were still, Garlasco said, a number of pieces of evidence that the IDF commission did not take into consideration.

and from HRW:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/15/isrlpa13570.htm

"Human Rights Watch researchers examined the computer-generated record from the Kamal Adwan hospital, which documents the blood test of a victim from the beach incident being taken at 5:12 p.m. on June 9. Furthermore, hand-written hospital records log patients from the incident as having been admitted starting at 5:05 p.m. If the records are accurate, based on the time needed to dispatch an ambulance and drive from the hospital to the beach and back, this suggests that the fatal explosion took place at a time when the IDF said it was firing artillery rounds. Both sets of records also directly call into question the account of the IDF that ambulances did not reach the beach until 5:15 p.m. that day.

Altering the records would require re-setting the computer’s clock and re-writing pages of the hospital’s admissions log. Human Rights Watch researchers said that the pages they saw documented patients un-related to the beach incident, followed by two pages of victims from the beach. The first of those were admitted at 5:05 p.m. The researchers saw no evidence that the times might have been altered.

Israeli military officials have also suggested the explosion, which killed seven members of the Ghalya family and wounded many others, might have been caused by a mine. But Human Rights Watch researchers also examined blood-crusted shrapnel given to them by the father of a 19-year-old male who suffered abdominal wounds in the beach explosion. They determined that the shrapnel is a piece of fuse from an artillery shell.

“The likelihood that the Ghalya family was killed by an explosive other than one of the shells fired by the IDF is remote,” said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. “This new evidence highlights the urgent need for Israel to permit an independent, transparent investigation into the beach killings.” "
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I like how you think that a 'defendant' can investigate themselves. Maybe we should have let the BTK killer investigate whether he waas guilty of killing people or not...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I love these IDF denials...get this:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/728817.html

"Israel Radio quoted unnamed senior military officials as saying that there was "zero chance" that shelling had caused the deaths, but that an unexploded shell from a past shelling attack on the beach might have detonated."

Yes Israel shells the beach. Yes they were shelling the beach when all those people were murdered. But of course it wasn't an IDF shell that killed them.

How can people be so fucking gullible?

what do you mean? That proves absolutly nothing. And it still asserts that it was an IDF shell. The only difference is that they are saying it 'might be' a old shell rather then a new one. And quite the coincidence since the IDF had just been shellin that exact beach less then 100 meters away...

It proves as much as your story does. People have died from an explosion the source of which is indeterminate. Yes it may have been an IDF shell but apparently not one that was fired in that barrage.

Jpost isn't reliable. Haaratz is much better.

Are you saying that they've misquoted mr. galarasco? If there is something inaccurate or hrw disputes this version let us know.

BTW good job leaving this bit off


and from HRW:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/15/isrlpa13570.htm

"Human Rights Watch researchers examined the computer-generated record from the Kamal Adwan hospital, which documents the blood test of a victim from the beach incident being taken at 5:12 p.m. on June 9. Furthermore, hand-written hospital records log patients from the incident as having been admitted starting at 5:05 p.m. If the records are accurate, based on the time needed to dispatch an ambulance and drive from the hospital to the beach and back, this suggests that the fatal explosion took place at a time when the IDF said it was firing artillery rounds. Both sets of records also directly call into question the account of the IDF that ambulances did not reach the beach until 5:15 p.m. that day.

Altering the records would require re-setting the computer’s clock and re-writing pages of the hospital’s admissions log. Human Rights Watch researchers said that the pages they saw documented patients un-related to the beach incident, followed by two pages of victims from the beach. The first of those were admitted at 5:05 p.m. The researchers saw no evidence that the times might have been altered.

Israeli military officials have also suggested the explosion, which killed seven members of the Ghalya family and wounded many others, might have been caused by a mine. But Human Rights Watch researchers also examined blood-crusted shrapnel given to them by the father of a 19-year-old male who suffered abdominal wounds in the beach explosion. They determined that the shrapnel is a piece of fuse from an artillery shell.

“The likelihood that the Ghalya family was killed by an explosive other than one of the shells fired by the IDF is remote,” said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. “This new evidence highlights the urgent need for Israel to permit an independent, transparent investigation into the beach killings.”

"I didn't even reference this so how could i have left it off. :rolleyes: In addition your version, which is from the 15th and today being the 20th is dated, it doesn't reference what the IDF offers and consequently is rendered obsolete.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I like how you think that a 'defendant' can investigate themselves. Maybe we should have let the BTK killer investigate whether he waas guilty of killing people or not...

They've offered their rational which as the article demonstrated hrw doesn't dispute do they.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I love these IDF denials...get this:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/728817.html

"Israel Radio quoted unnamed senior military officials as saying that there was "zero chance" that shelling had caused the deaths, but that an unexploded shell from a past shelling attack on the beach might have detonated."

Yes Israel shells the beach. Yes they were shelling the beach when all those people were murdered. But of course it wasn't an IDF shell that killed them.

How can people be so fucking gullible?

I wonder why one sides evidence is incontrovertible while the others is completely open to question. I wonder why israel would shell the beach for the hell of it or why there would be unexploded ordnance lying around. I wonder why there are different types of shrapnel in these victims. I wonder...:flowers:

An important point left out of all this is the fact that the Israelis are responding to criminal kassam bombing of Israel by Palestines.

The source of the problem and killings is the Palestines never ending attempts to kill any person living in Israel.

Stop killing Jews and the Jews will stop trying to kill the killers.

If I kick a big man in the shin every day then he punches me in the nose, who is the trouble maker?

Israeli strike clouds leaders' meeting By JOSEF FEDERMAN, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jun 20, 9:06 PM ET

JERUSALEM - An Israeli missile aimed at militants killed three young Palestinians in a refugee camp Tuesday, clouding prospects for a possible meeting between Israeli and Palestinian leaders later this week when they attend the same breakfast in Jordan.

Israeli aircraft fired a missile at a car in the crowded Jebaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza Strip on Tuesday afternoon, missing the militants in the car but killing a 5-year-old boy and his 7-year-old sister. A 16-year-old girl also died of her wounds, hospital officials said.

Eight other people were injured in the blast, which Israel's Channel 2 TV said was "another failed assassination attempt, and again innocent civilians were hit." Hundreds of angry Palestinians gathered around the wrecked car in a narrow street.

Israeli and Palestinian officials said the targeted militants were from the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, which is linked to the Fatah movement of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. The men fled the car before the missile hit, the officials said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060621/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians;_ylt=AkScxbQ24UqkTgIi8bp.EuFva A8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The IDF isn't really good at killing militiants. But they do a great job when it comes to innocent civilians, especially children. When innocent people get killed, the people that don't get killed by the IDF, mostly children, become members of Hamas and other militiant groups.

An important point left out of all this is the fact that the Israelis are responding to criminal kassam bombing of Israel by Palestines.

The source of the problem and killings is the Palestines never ending attempts to kill any person living in Israel.

Stop killing Jews and the Jews will stop trying to kill the killers.

If I kick a big man in the shin every day then he punches me in the nose, who is the trouble maker?I would ask why you were kicking him in the shin in the first place. You would say because he punched you in the nose. Why did he punch you in the nose? Because you were kicking him in the shin. Why were you kicking him in the shin? Because he punched you in the nose.

And so on and so forth.

Then one of you would say, "Well he started it!" And I would tell you that after 58 years of an endless cycle of nose-punching and shin-kicking, "who started it" is quite irrelevant.

Then one of you would say, "Well he started it!" And I would tell you that after 58 years of an endless cycle of nose-punching and shin-kicking, "who started it" is quite irrelevant.


Well if you can't tell the difference in Palestines firing missiles at civilians and Israel making surgical attacks at the terrorst then lets take a look at the minds of the Palestines.

This war between the Muslims and infidels, yes that includes Muslims attacking Christians too, has been going on since Mohammad the prophet walked the earth.


Here is a quote from the Palestine TV, now does this look like a people who believe in love and peace?

Hateful Hadith Again PA TV

A hadith is a saying or tradition attributed to the Prophet Muhammad. One particular hadith that has been repeated by academic and religious figures over and over on Palestinian Authority Television relates a time in the future when the rocks and the trees of the earth will call out to Muslims to kill them. Indeed, according to this hadith, until Muslims start killing Jews and the rocks and the trees reveal the latter's hiding places, the Hour of Resurrection - the end of the world - won't come.

By continually preaching this message to Palestinians, the PA is turning the killing of Jews into a religious obligation.


http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html

Well hey....they had to kill them.....there might have been rocks lying nearby.


BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Klifi: IDF definitely not behind Gaza beach blast
By YAAKOV KATZ


The blast on a Gaza beach 12 days ago that killed seven Palestinian civilians was definitely not caused by IDF shelling, Maj.-Gen. Meir Klifi, head of the IDF inquiry commission announced at a news conference on Wednesday.

"The examination of a second piece of shrapnel retrieved from the body of a boy who was wounded in the blast unequivocally shows that the explosion was not caused by a 155 mm artillery shell", said Klifi, adding that it came from a different type of ammunition used by the IDF.

Klifi said that the commission would continue to investigate what was behind the explosion.

"There is a possibility that the explosion was caused by an unexploded IDF artillery shell that landed on the beach weeks or months ago and it is also possible that the blast was caused by an explosive device planted by Palestinian terrorist group," he said.

Klifi said that the continuing investigation would primarily focus on intelligence gathering. "We have in our possession intelligence information that supports our claim that the blast was not caused by an Israeli artillery shell," he said.

Earlier, officials from Tel Aviv's Ichilov Hospital said that Palestinian doctors did not have any medical reason to take out the shrapnel from one of the daughters of the Raalia family that was killed as a result of the incident.

"I saw her in the trauma section of the emergency room and it was clear to me that she had undergone several superficial operations," Manager of the Tel Aviv's Medical Center Prof. Gaby Barbush told Army Radio.

Stop killing Jews and the Jews will stop trying to kill the killers. yeah the problem is your racist ass thinks it only terrorism when the palistinians do it....
This war between the Muslims and infidels, yes that includes Muslims attacking Christians too, has been going on since Mohammad the prophet walked the earth. wow your truely clueless aren't you. You do realize that Israel is killing Christian palistinians too right? and that yes Christian paslistinians exist? and that those Isrealis living on stolen land regularly attack the Christian peace makers as they try to keep Palistinian children safe on their way to school?

Heres one said project:
http://www.telrumeidaproject.org/

Go to the photos and veiw the kids throwing rocks at palistinains right in front of IDF soilders who do absolutly nothing about it. Then go read a story about how the IDF likes to murder palistinian kids for throwing rock at tanks...

Go look at the 'settler' graffitti that says "Gas the Arabs" ...

Go watch the videos of this hate and terrorism.

yeah the problem is your racist ass thinks it only terrorism when the palistinians do it....
wow your truely clueless aren't you. You do realize that Israel is killing Christian palistinians too right? and that yes Christian paslistinians exist? and that those Isrealis living on stolen land regularly attack the Christian peace makers as they try to keep Palistinian children safe on their way to school?

Heres one said project:
http://www.telrumeidaproject.org/

Go to the photos and veiw the kids throwing rocks at palistinains right in front of IDF soilders who do absolutly nothing about it. Then go read a story about how the IDF likes to murder palistinian kids for throwing rock at tanks...

Go look at the 'settler' graffitti that says "Gas the Arabs" ...

Go watch the videos of this hate and terrorism.



what's going on in palestine/isreal is the same thing that has happened in amerika to ndns. murder, theft, cheat, lie, steal, blood blood blood. now the murders in amerika aren't as prevalent or known.
i don't care what the jews say about "god" giving the land to them. i think people over there pray to god all the time and i ain't heard god say shit.

Ivan sez: " ... i think people over there pray to god all the time and i ain't heard god say shit..."

One of the most accurate statements I've seen here in a very long time.

.This war between the Muslims and infidels, yes that includes Muslims attacking Christians too, has been going on since Mohammad the prophet walked the earth.

http://www.juancole.com/2006/03/bigotry-toward-muslims-and-anti-arab.html
Thursday, March 09, 2006

Bigotry toward Muslims and Anti-Arab Racism Grow in US;
Dubai and the Quran

The constant drumbeat of hatred toward Muslims and Arabs on the American Right, on television and radio and in the press, has gradually had its effect. This according to a Washington Post poll. Even in the year after September 11, a majority of Americans respected Islam and Muslims, but powerful forces in US society are determined to change that, and are gradually succeeding. As they win, Bin Laden also wins, since his whole enterprise was to "sharpen the contradictions" and provoke a clash of civilizations.

Some 25% of Americans now say they personally are prejudiced against Muslims. And 33% think that Islam as a religion helps incite violence against non-Muslims, up from 14% after September 11......

.....Dangerous falsehoods are being promulgated to the American public. The Quran does not preach violence against Christians.

Quran 5:69 says (Arberry): "Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness--their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow."

In other words, the Quran promises Christians and Jews along with Muslims that if they have faith and works, they need have no fear in the afterlife. It is not saying that non-Muslims go to hell-- quite the opposite.

When speaking of the 7th-century situation in the Muslim city-state of Medina, which was at war with pagan Mecca, the Quran notes that the polytheists and Arabian Jewish tribes were opposed to Islam, but then goes on to say:

5:82. " . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: 'We are Christians.' That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud."

So the Quran not only does not urge Muslims to commit violence against Christians, it calls them "nearest in love" to the Muslims! The reason given is their piety, their ability to produce holy persons dedicated to God, and their lack of overweening pride.

The tendency when reading the Quran is to read a word like "kafir" (infidel) as referring to all non-Muslims. But it is clear from a close study of the way the Quran uses the word that it refers to those who actively oppose and persecute Muslims. The word literally meant "ingrate" in ancient Arabic. So the polytheists ("mushrikun") who tried to wipe out Islam were the main referents of the word "infidel." Christians, as we see above, were mostly in a completely different category. The Christian Ethiopian monarch gave refuge to the Muslims at one point when things got hot in Mecca. The Quran does at one point speak of the "infidels" among the Jews and Christians (2:105: "those who committed kufr/infidelity from among the people of the Book.") But this verse only proves that it did not think they were all infidels, and it is probably referring to specific Jewish and Christian groups who joined with the Meccans in trying to wipe out the early Muslim community. (The Quran calls Jews and Christians "people of the book" because they have a monotheistic scripture).

People often also ask me about this verse:

[5:51] O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as friends; these are friends of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them.

This is actually not a good translation of the original, which has a very specific context. In the Arabia of Muhammad's time, it was possible for an individual to become an honorary member or "client" of a powerful tribe. But of course, if you did that you would be subordinating yourself politically to that tribe. The word used in Arabic here does not mean "friend." It means "political patron" (wali). What the Quran is trying to do is to discourage stray Muslims from subordinating themselves to Christian or Jewish tribes that might in turn ally with pagan Mecca, or in any case might have interests at odds with those of the general Muslim community.

So the verse actually says:


[5:51] O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as tribal patrons; these are tribal patrons of one another. Those among you who become clients of these belong with them.

Since the Quran considers Christians nearest in love to Muslims, it obviously does not have an objection to friendship between the two. But apparently now it is some Christians who have that hateful attitude, of no friendship with "infidels."

Ivan sez: " ... i think people over there pray to god all the time and i ain't heard god say shit..."

One of the most accurate statements I've seen here in a very long time.

I agree, and I have no religion. Some say that I think the Jews are perfect, well I presently don't know any Jews and I have no preference for any religion except when it effects me negatively.

Sometimes it seems that I am on a crusade against Islam but I am on a crusade to get them to tell the truth, and that, they will never do.

If they want to wipe Israel off the map then be honest like Hamas is. The EU wants the Palestians to pretend they are not racist against Jews and then the EU will give them money. They can still wage war to destroy Israel, just don't say it.

When men hate the USA so much that their religion calls them to kill thousands of Americans, then say your religion calls for Jihad, don't kill and then say they can't kill innocent people because their religion forbids it. That is the ultimate insult.

Old Reb did you even bother to look at any of my links on the top of the page?

Old Reb did you even bother to look at any of my links on the top of the page?

They looked like pick and chose a few rare insults to Palestines from Jews. A few incidents does not constitute a religious jihad as the palestines have against the Jews. Did you look at the links I posted, where Palestine TV makes it a religious duty to kill Jews.

Pick any one of your propaganda stories and I will debate you to squeeze the truth out of you, if that could be done.

I know that you constantly call me a racist in order to give a false image of me so as to upfront disregard anything I might say.

You are a clever propagandist and if I could get the truth out of you, I could get the truth out of anybody.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060621/wl_nm/mideast_investigation_dc


Group says Israel ignored beach blast evidence
By Dean Yates
Wed Jun 21, 11:11 AM ET

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Human Rights Watch accused an Israeli army investigation on Wednesday of ignoring evidence that challenges its decision to clear the military of blame for a blast that killed seven Palestinians on a Gaza beach.

The deaths on June 9, a day of heavy Israeli shelling designed to stop militants firing rockets from Gaza, drew international condemnation and prompted the ruling Palestinian Islamist group Hamas to call off a 16-month-old truce.

Major-General Meir Califi, who led the army investigation, dismissed the accusations by the U.S.-based rights watchdog, which has carried out its own inquiry into the explosion that killed seven family members on an outing to the beach.

In a statement, Human Rights Watch said the Israeli army (IDF) had excluded all evidence gathered by other sources. It had either called into question or declined to accept evidence collected by the group, the statement added.

"An investigation that refuses to look at contradictory evidence can hardly be considered credible," said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch.

"The IDF's partisan approach highlights the need for an independent, international investigation."

Israel has ruled out an international probe.

The army has said shelling of the area, in response to rocket fire into the Jewish state, had ended before the beach blast. Retrieved shrapnel samples also ruled out the possibility of a direct Israeli artillery barrage, it said.

Evidence collected by Human Rights Watch researchers indicated the civilians were killed within the time period of the shelling, the statement said. That evidence included computerized and hand-written hospital records showing the time when some of the wounded were admitted.

Califi, who met Garlasco earlier this week, said the army had accounted for all shells fired during the time period.

He said nothing Garlasco presented had undermined the army's investigation.

"All his evidence is circumstantial. The evidence was either brought to him or not collected at the scene," Califi told reporters in Tel Aviv, partly referring to shrapnel from victims that Human Rights Watch had obtained.

The Human Rights Watch statement followed a report by Israeli television on Tuesday that said the delayed explosion of a dud Israeli shell might have killed the beachgoers.

The army has not ruled this out.

Hamas has blamed Israel for the explosion and violence has increased since. Three children were killed on Tuesday in an Israeli air strike against militants behind rocket fire. The militants escaped.

Group says Israel ignored beach blast evidence


"An investigation that refuses to look at contradictory evidence can hardly be considered credible," said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch.



The human rights Watch, HRW, and Marc Garlasco have spent decades defaming Israel with their un supported lies.

"Unbiased" Advice

Human Rights Watch and Saeb Erekat lack objectivity

The Israeli Defense Forces recently concluded a report on the tragic deaths of seven Palestinians on a Gaza Beach. As detailed yesterday in HR's special report "Gaza Beach Libel", the IDF has carefully analyzed all evidence and proven that it was not responsible for this tragedy.

In the past 24 hours, our report has generated over 500 letters to the media. While some news organizations have reported the IDF findings, it certainly does not compensate for the highly emotive front page initial accusations.

At the same time, many in the media have been quoting Human Rights Watch (HRW)'s military "expert" Marc Garlasco. Garlasco was one of the authors of HRW's controversial study "Razing Rafah." The study is based on unverifiable Palestinian allegations and unsubstantiated security judgments. This "academic" study claimed that "the IDF actions destroyed over 50 percent of Rafah's roads and elements of its water, sewage, and electrical systems" based on a combination of Palestinian "eye-witnesses" and sympathetic journalists.

HonestReporting does not expect media to accept Israel's conclusions at face value. However, Human Rights Watch, along with many other organizations which claim to focus solely on human rights without a political agenda, have hardly proven themselves to be an "unbiased" source.

First, as an NGO (Non-Government Organization), HRW is not held accountable to anybody but its own staff.

According to Professor Gerald Steinberg of Bar Illan University:

The international human rights framework was created in response to the horrors of the Holocaust and embodied in the Nuremberg trials and the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But going far beyond simple irony, this idealistic framework has been hijacked to justify the Palestinian terror campaign against Israelis.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/-Unbiased-_Advice.asp

KRAUTHAMMER ASKS WHO IS TO BLAME

In sharp contrast to much of the media, Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer questioned the automatic response to blame Israel:

Okay. Let's concede for the sake of argument that the question of whether it was an errant Israeli shell remains unresolved. But the obvious question not being asked is this: Who is to blame if Palestinians are setting up rocket launchers to attack Israel -- and placing them 400 yards from a beach crowded with Palestinian families on the Muslim Sabbath?

Answer: This is another example of the Palestinians' classic and cowardly human-shield tactic -- attacking innocent Israeli civilians while hiding behind innocent Palestinian civilians. For Palestinian terrorists -- and the Palestinian governments (both Fatah and Hamas) that allow them to operate unmolested -- it's a win-win: If their rockets aimed into Israeli towns kill innocent Jews, no one abroad notices and it's another success in the terrorist war against Israel. And if Israel's preventive and deterrent attacks on those rocket bases inadvertently kill Palestinian civilians, the iconic "Israeli massacre" picture makes the front page of the New York Times, and the Palestinians win the propaganda war.

KRAUTHAMMER ASKS WHO IS TO BLAME

In sharp contrast to much of the media, Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer questioned the automatic response to blame Israel:

Okay. Let's concede for the sake of argument that the question of whether it was an errant Israeli shell remains unresolved. But the obvious question not being asked is this: Who is to blame if Palestinians are setting up rocket launchers to attack Israel -- and placing them 400 yards from a beach crowded with Palestinian families on the Muslim Sabbath?

Answer: This is another example of the Palestinians' classic and cowardly human-shield tactic -- attacking innocent Israeli civilians while hiding behind innocent Palestinian civilians. For Palestinian terrorists -- and the Palestinian governments (both Fatah and Hamas) that allow them to operate unmolested -- it's a win-win: If their rockets aimed into Israeli towns kill innocent Jews, no one abroad notices and it's another success in the terrorist war against Israel. And if Israel's preventive and deterrent attacks on those rocket bases inadvertently kill Palestinian civilians, the iconic "Israeli massacre" picture makes the front page of the New York Times, and the Palestinians win the propaganda war.


If Palestinian land was never stolen, none of this would have ever happened.

How far back in time does one need to look before assigning land ownership? Weren't the Jews in that part of the world eons ago as well as the Palestinians and other Arab tribes?

How far back in time does one need to look before assigning land ownership? Weren't the Jews in that part of the world eons ago as well as the Palestinians and other Arab tribes?


Palestinians have lived in Palestine for thousands of years. The Palestinian cause is similar to the Native American cause. The oppresion suffered by Palestinians can be compared to the oppression suffered by Native Americans. Both groups have had their land taken away. In the process of taking this land, thousands of people have died. I would say Native American casualties are much higher. After Americans realized how awful they treated Native Americans, Native Americans were offered untaxable casinos and reservations and they settled for these untaxable casinos and reservations, Palestinians aren't going to settle for little things like this. Especially since they continue to be oppressed. After their oppression stops and military checkpoints and illegal house settlements are taken out of their land and after Israelie settlers stop abusing Palestinians, then we will see a stop in the conflict. Living in a military occupied territory is unbearable. From first hand experience, I have went through military checkpoints, I have had a gun pointed in my face, I have had an uncle who was shot by the IDF, I have experienced rock throwing Palestinians and gun shooting IDF soldiers near Al-Aqsa Mosque, I have experienced the cut of electricity and during the blackout missle launching helicopters. At the spark on the Intifada, I was out of school for many weeks. I remember watching Muhamad Al-Dura being displayed on T.V, his body and his father's body riddled with bullets. It's hard for Palestinians to keep living with a smile on their face. Don't get me wrong now, I have met very nice Israelies, some who have been members of the IDF. I have had conversations with them. Although unusual, some of them would let us pass military checkpoints with ease. To sum it all up, the Mideast conflict takes a toll on anyone's life, whether you're a Palestinian or Isralie. Whether you're a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.

If Palestinian land was never stolen, none of this would have ever happened.


The problem is not stolen land, the problem is that Israel exist and is not controlled by Sharia Law. The Jews are free to practice their religion and Muslims are free to practice theirs too.

The Palestinians on the other hand prefer a more fascist state where the PA controls all media, all elections, and Palestinian 'Israeli collaborators' are routinely shot in the street.

Just to free you palestines of the Jews, Iran wants to nuke the both of you. They say it will be the end of Israel but only a small loss for Muslims. I guess that the Palestines are small potatoes in the overall Muslim picture.

The problem is not stolen land, the problem is that Israel exist and is not controlled by Sharia Law. The Jews are free to practice their religion and Muslims are free to practice theirs too.

The Palestinians on the other hand prefer a more fascist state where the PA controls all media, all elections, and Palestinian 'Israeli collaborators' are routinely shot in the street.

Just to free you palestines of the Jews, Iran wants to nuke the both of you. They say it will be the end of Israel but only a small loss for Muslims. I guess that the Palestines are small potatoes in the overall Muslim picture.

Thursday, June 15, 2006

Steele on Ahmadinejad: Of Arenas of Time and Intransitive Verbs
Jonathan Steele of the Guardian does a good piece about the controversy over Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's quotation from Khomeini that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" -- which some Iranian activists and the Western press translated as "Israel must be wiped off the face of the map."

The only thing I would add is that mahv shodan is in fact an intransitive verb construction. Shodan is to become. An mard khoshhal shodeh is "that man became happy." It is not a transitive verb. That is why mahv shodan is better translated "vanish," also an intransitive verb. The transitive is mahv kardan, to "wipe out" or "eliminate."

The New York Times was told by supposed Persian language experts in Iran, and appears to believe, that mahv shodan is a transitive verb construct. It makes me a little worried about the state of grammar in Iran, and in the Persian speaking staff of the NYT, and also about its newsgathering prowess. If they cannot find out that shodan is intransitive, something well known in Persian grammar for thousands of years, you wonder what other assertions they are swallowing. I told them this, by the way, before the article came out. I guess we academic Persianists are not trusted to know an intransitive verb when we see one. No wonder we're mostly not trusted to know more important things.
http://www.juancole.com/2006/06/steele-on-ahmadinejad-of-arenas-of.html

Thursday, June 15, 2006

Steele on Ahmadinejad: Of Arenas of Time and Intransitive Verbs
Jonathan Steele of the Guardian does a good piece about the controversy over Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's quotation from Khomeini that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" -- which some Iranian activists and the Western press translated as "Israel must be wiped off the face of the map."

The only thing I would add is that mahv shodan is in fact an intransitive verb construction. Shodan is to become. An mard khoshhal shodeh is "that man became happy." It is not a transitive verb. That is why mahv shodan is better translated "vanish," also an intransitive verb. The transitive is mahv kardan, to "wipe out" or "eliminate."

The New York Times was told by supposed Persian language experts in Iran, and appears to believe, that mahv shodan is a transitive verb construct. It makes me a little worried about the state of grammar in Iran, and in the Persian speaking staff of the NYT, and also about its newsgathering prowess. If they cannot find out that shodan is intransitive, something well known in Persian grammar for thousands of years, you wonder what other assertions they are swallowing. I told them this, by the way, before the article came out. I guess we academic Persianists are not trusted to know an intransitive verb when we see one. No wonder we're mostly not trusted to know more important things.
http://www.juancole.com/2006/06/steele-on-ahmadinejad-of-arenas-of.html



Ok, Googs we are playing the translation game to avoid the truth. Well, it is a silly game but I will play it with you.

Our dear Imam [Khomeini] said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. … Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. … For over fifty years the world oppressor tried to give legitimacy to the occupying regime, and it has taken measures in this direction to stabilize it.

Ahmadinejad then denounced the recent Israeli-Palestinian negotiations over Gaza as a sellout and added, "If we get through this brief period successfully, the path of eliminating the occupying regime will be easy and down-hill."

Not even Professor Cole will dispute that, in the above passages, the term "occupying regime" means Israel and the term "world oppressor" stands for the United States. (The title of the conference, incidentally, was The World Without Zionism.) In fact, Khomeini's injunctions are referred to twice. Quite possibly, "wiped off the map" is slightly too free a translation of what he originally said, and what it is mandatory for his followers to repeat. So, I give it below, in Persian and in English, and let you be the judge:

Esrail ghiyam-e mossalahaane bar zed-e mamaalek-e eslami nemoodeh ast va bar doval va mamaalek-eeslami ghal-o-gham aan lazem ast.

My source here is none other than a volume published by the Institute for Imam Khomeini. Here is the translation:

Israel has declared armed struggle against Islamic countries and its destruction is a must for all governments and nations of Islam.

This is especially important, and is also the reason for the wide currency given to the statement: It is making something into a matter of religious duty. The term "ghal-o-gham" is an extremely strong and unambivalent one, of which a close equivalent rendering would be "annihilate."

Professor Cole has completely missed or omitted the first reference in last October's speech, skipped to the second one, and flatly misunderstood the third. (The fourth one, about "eliminating the occupying regime," I would say speaks for itself.) He evidently thinks that by "occupation," Khomeini and Ahmadinejad were referring to the Israeli seizure of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. But if this were true, it would not have been going on for "more than fifty years" now, would it? The 50th anniversary of 1967 falls in 2017, which is a while off. What could be clearer than that "occupation regime" is a direct reference to Israel itself?


http://www.slate.com/id/2140947/

Dispute over Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's comments on Israel
On October 26, 2005, Iranian President Ahmadinehad gave a speech at the "World without Zionism" conference in Tehran. In the speech, Ahmadinehad addressed the history of relations between the Islamic and non-Islamic worlds, Israel as the current focus of this relationship, the recognition of Israel by Islamic countries, and visions of the future of Zionism. In the speech, he referred to a statement that had been made by Imam (Ayatollah) Khomeini, calling it "very wise" and saying,"the issue of Palestine is not an issue on which we can compromise": "een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e Qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

The phrase was translated by the New York Times as Israel,"must be wiped off the map". A similar translation was provided by the Associated Press and Al-Jazeera[39]. Iran's official IRNA news agency [40] and all official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away[41]. MEMRI translated the phrase as, 'This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history"[42]. Many interpreted the speech as the expression of an Iranian threat against the state of Israel.

Cole objected to the use of the idiom, "wiped off the map", commenting that "no such idiom exists in Persian". He translated the phrase literally to mean the occupation of Jerusalem ( "Qods"), "must [vanish from] from the page of time." He interpreted the object of the statement to be the territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 War rather than the whole state of Israel. He interpreted Ahmadinejad's use of the phrase quoted not as a threat, but as a metaphor describing an inevitable and grand historical process culiminating in the end of the Zionist state. Sohrab Mahdavi, described by New York Times reporter Ethan Bronner as "one of Iran's most prominent translators," and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say "wipe off" or "wipe away" is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive. [41] Cole states that this is incorrect, however: "mahv shodan is in fact an intransitive verb construction. Shodan is to become. An mard khoshhal shodeh is 'that man became happy.' It is not a transitive verb. That is why mahv shodan is better translated 'vanish,' also an intransitive verb. The transitive is mahv kardan, to 'wipe out' or 'eliminate.'" Cole comments on the implications of the translation in the New York Times article: "The New York Times was told by supposed Persian language experts in Iran, and appears to believe, that mahv shodan is a transitive verb construct. It makes me a little worried about the state of grammar in Iran, and in the Persian speaking staff of the NYT, and also about its newsgathering prowess. If they cannot find out that shodan is intransitive, something well known in Persian grammar for thousands of years, you wonder what other assertions they are swallowing."[43] Cole indicates that he informed the New York Times of his claim before they printed the story, and continued: "I guess we academic Persianists are not trusted to know an intransitive verb when we see one."

The Guardian's Johnathan Steele commented on the controversy: "Starting with Juan Cole, and going via the New York Times' experts through MEMRI to the BBC's monitors, the consensus is that Ahmadinejad did not talk about any maps. He was, as I insisted in my original piece, offering a vague wish for the future.... The fact that he compared his desired option - the elimination of "the regime occupying Jerusalem" - with the fall of the Shah's regime in Iran makes it crystal clear that he is talking about regime change, not the end of Israel. As a schoolboy opponent of the Shah in the 1970's he surely did not favour Iran's removal from the page of time. He just wanted the Shah out. The same with regard to Israel."[44]

Prior to the publication of much of this analysis, Christopher Hitchens had attacked Cole's translation and interpretation, considering it to be a whitewash of Iranian threats to destroy Israel, especially in light of Iran's nuclear ambitions. [45]

Cole countered, "Ahmadinejad...has condemned mass killing of any sort and was not threatening military action (he is in any case not in command of the Iranian military). He compares his hope for an end to any Zionist regime in geographical Palestine to Ayatollah Khomeini's prediction that the Soviet Union would one day vanish. It wasn't a hope to kill Soviet citizens, but a desire for regime change." [46] Cole told the New York Times, "I am entirely aware that Ahmadinejad is hostile to Israel. The question is whether his intentions and capabilities would lead to a military attack, and whether therefore pre-emptive warfare is prescribed. I am saying no, and the boring philology is part of the reason for the no."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_and_controversies_concerning_Juan_Cole#On_Is rael

The problem is not stolen land, the problem is that Israel exist and is not controlled by Sharia Law. The Jews are free to practice their religion and Muslims are free to practice theirs too.

The Palestinians on the other hand prefer a more fascist state where the PA controls all media, all elections, and Palestinian 'Israeli collaborators' are routinely shot in the street.

Just to free you palestines of the Jews, Iran wants to nuke the both of you. They say it will be the end of Israel but only a small loss for Muslims. I guess that the Palestines are small potatoes in the overall Muslim picture.

Googs, you were losing the main debate so you post pages of dribble about translation of Akmadjihadist of Iran. Forget about Iranian verbs and such. Ok, we will forget the part about akmadjihadist comments. (I can't spell or pronounce his name)

It is interesting that you actually lived in Palestine. I see you as much a victim as the Israelis because of the PLA only wanting to wage war and not build the good life for Palestines.

Why do you see me as the victim of the Palestinian Authority? I am not a victim compared to what most palestinians go through. I haven't endured the amount of pain palestians living there have felt. I guess you can say I actually lived in the "good part" of the West Bank unlike most palestinians. I wouldn't even really call it "good." But it is a better place than where Gazans live and most of the West Bank. Its unfortuante that the "good" part of the palestinian territories is still crap. The Israel gov. has turned a blind eye to palestinian suffering. And when blame falls upon them, they point fingers and deny the accusations of palestinians suffering. And when palestinians are killed by the IDF and it ss displayed in the media, they apologize for the deaths but deny that it was their policies that killed these innocent palestinians. And when all evidence points to them, they come up with excuses and deny that such evidence exists. The Israelie gov. like most goverments in the world are filled with greedy people who dont care about the world and other people. Im gonna keep going and Im gonna bash on Arab governments. In most if not all Arab countries, there is a continued discrimination against Palestinians. For instance, in lebanon, Palestinians are forbidden from attaining certain occupations. In the rest of the Arab world, besides Jordan, citizenship is non-existant. To go on further with the rest of the world, The United States is supporting a regime dedicated to policies that encourage and maintain palestinians suffering and the E.U is on the U.S' nuts. Its just not Israelies but much of the world. But I do have to say, Israel by far is the biggest discriminator and killer when it come Palestinians.

....
Israel acknowledges that it fired eight artillery shells at the Gaza coastline between 4:25 p.m. and 4:55 p.m. Six of those were 155 mm rounds fired by an artillery unit about five miles away in Israel. The first and eighth rounds were fired by a naval vessel offshore.

Israeli investigators contend that the deadly explosion happened at least 10 minutes after the last round. Their main evidence is two videotapes taken from a naval ship off the coast.

The first video was taken between 4:54 and 4:57. It shows a near-empty beach and no clear signs of medical crews treating wounded Palestinians. The second, taken at 5:15, shows ambulances arriving, leading the Israeli investigators to conclude that the blast took place in that 18-minute gap.

But eyewitnesses, computerized cell-phone records, hospital logs and an internal United Nations report contradict that claim.

A U.N. spotter in northern Gaza radioed his Gaza City headquarters at 4:33 p.m. to say the Israeli military had resumed its attack and that there were reports of massive casualties at the beach. The U.N. report on the incident hasn't been made public, according to a diplomat who asked not to be identified because of the incident's sensitivity.

Seven minutes later, according to the Palestinian cell-phone company Jawwal, someone used a cellular phone to dial the local emergency number to report casualties at the beach. The report was passed to the Palestine Red Crescent Society, which noted the cell phone number in its logbook. Jawwal confirmed the call's time at Knight Ridder's request.

The first Red Crescent workers on the scene told Knight Ridder that an artillery explosion rattled their ambulance as they rushed to get six victims to a hospital.

Handwritten records at Kamal Odwan Hospital - at least 10 minutes from the beach - show that the first victims were admitted at 5:05 p.m. A computerized blood test for one of the survivors was conducted at 5:12 p.m. (The record is dated 4:12 p.m. because the machine was never changed for Daylight Saving Time.)

There are also questions about Israel's claim that the deaths couldn't have been caused by an artillery round fired that day.

Using radar images taken between 4 and 5 that afternoon, Israel says it knows within 30 yards where seven of the eight shells that were fired landed.

The shell Israel can't account for was fired at 4:30 by the artillery battery in Israel. Israel says the next three shells hit 600 yards north of the fatal blast site. Since all four shells had the same coordinates, the chances that the first one would veer off course and hit the beachgoers are "one in a billion," IDF spokesman Dallal said.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/14870888.htm

So what almighty and complex conspiracy do you have to blow this off Old Reb?

Maybe you should slit your wrists with Occums razor...

Why do you see me as the victim of the Palestinian Authority? I am not a victim compared to what most palestinians go through. I haven't endured the amount of pain palestians living there have felt. I guess you can say I actually lived in the "good part" of the West Bank unlike most palestinians. I wouldn't even really call it "good." But it is a better place than where Gazans live and most of the West Bank. Its unfortuante that the "good" part of the palestinian territories is still crap. The Israel gov. has turned a blind eye to palestinian suffering. And when blame falls upon them, they point fingers and deny the accusations of palestinians suffering. And when palestinians are killed by the IDF and it ss displayed in the media, they apologize for the deaths but deny that it was their policies that killed these innocent palestinians. And when all evidence points to them, they come up with excuses and deny that such evidence exists. The Israelie gov. like most goverments in the world are filled with greedy people who dont care about the world and other people. Im gonna keep going and Im gonna bash on Arab governments. In most if not all Arab countries, there is a continued discrimination against Palestinians. For instance, in lebanon, Palestinians are forbidden from attaining certain occupations. In the rest of the Arab world, besides Jordan, citizenship is non-existant. To go on further with the rest of the world, The United States is supporting a regime dedicated to policies that encourage and maintain palestinians suffering and the E.U is on the U.S' nuts. Its just not Israelies but much of the world. But I do have to say, Israel by far is the biggest discriminator and killer when it come Palestinians.

The Arab world wants the Palestines to destroy Israel but the Arab world doesn't want Palestines in their countries? Why?

I seem to recall that when Arafat went into Jordan, he caused a civil war that killed thousands and somthing similar in Lebenon. Iraq has driven out the palestines because of people like Al zaqarhi (the guy that was just killed) have been killing innocent Iraqis in their shopping centers and Mosque and anywhere they live or work. It seems to me that Palestines have become killing machines.

We could argue endless about the cause of the beach deaths but the main cause of their deaths is that Pals are sending rockets out from populated areas so that when Israel tries to stop the rockets they will cause some civilian casualties. The Pals win in the world opinion either way, if Israelis are killed by the rockets then only dirty Jews die or if Palestine civilians are killed then the Jews are commiting genocide.

In a bid for some peace the Israelis pulled out of Gaza, but this peace move was precieved by the pals as victory for them and it was. Now they send rockets to the towns near gaza and cause the people to leave there.
Anybody can see the future of this game. As Israel pulls out of more and more land then more and more rockets will fall on Israel and then they must fight or die.

The whole idea of pull outs is now being reconsidered and reinvasion of gaza seems to be the only solution.

The Jews must get used to the idea that the Palestines will always be waging war on them and that they will never have peace. Only fools think that the Palestines will make peace with Jews. It is the religious duty of all Muslims to destroy Israel.

The Palestine wars in not like the American Indian wars. The Jews are the cousins of the Palestines returning home but they are not welcome because they will not bow to Allah. If all Israel converted to Isalm and gave up their democartic government for a dictatorship with Sharia law then they would be accepted by their cousins with open arms.

Cousins? You may as well be talking to avowed racists in the 1930's & informing them that blood is interchangeable by type & not by skin color.

That is so true and racism is so easily taught, like the 1960's school teacher who as an experiment divided her class up by eye color and classified certain eye colors as superior to other eye colors. The experiment only lasted a week or two but the children were scarred for life.

The Jews must get used to the idea that the Palestines will always be waging war on them and that they will never have peace. Only fools think that the Palestines will make peace with Jews. It is the religious duty of all Muslims to destroy Israel.
The Palestine wars in not like the American Indian wars. The Jews are the cousins of the Palestines returning home but they are not welcome because they will not bow to Allah. If all Israel converted to Isalm and gave up their democartic government for a dictatorship with Sharia law then they would be accepted by their cousins with open arms.


Reb, I think your forgetting that there all Palestinian Christians. It seems like you generalizing all Palestinians as Muslims. Palestinians as Christians and Muslims are facing the same collective punishment from Isralies. They suffer from the wall that prohibits them from jobs and schools and many of the other policies made by Israel. It's not just Muslims, Christians too.

Reb, I think your forgetting that there all Palestinian Christians. It seems like you generalizing all Palestinians as Muslims. Palestinians as Christians and Muslims are facing the same collective punishment from Isralies. They suffer from the wall that prohibits them from jobs and schools and many of the other policies made by Israel. It's not just Muslims, Christians too.

No, I didn't forget about the Christians. Some were killed for selling land to Jews.

Here is a little more info on the Christian Arabs. I am surprised that a Christian community was allowed to live in the middle east before Arafat came to devour them.


The American Arab Anti-discrimination Committee's (AADC) spin is that Christians flee Bethlehem because of Israel’s policies. Isn’t it strange that Christians flee while Muslims stay and grow dramatically in number, and Christian property ownership recedes as Muslim property ownership expands. Muslims oppress Christians over there while here Muslims hold vigils blaming the Jews for the oppression inflicted on Bethlehem’s Christians.


In the West Bank town of Taibe marauding Muslims burned, looted and beat Christian residents in the name of a Muslim family’s “honor,” a family whose father had brutally beaten his daughter to death for wanting to marry a Christian. The violent Muslim mob burned a statue of the Virgin Mary and shouted, “Burn the Crusaders!” PA fire and security forces took their time arriving on the scene, appearing hours later. In the end, the mob was almost immediately released from jail. Meanwhile, the Christian fiancée of the murdered woman was arrested and beaten while incarcerated. The lesson—that of the mob being released while an innocent Christian languished in jail—was not lost on the Christian community of the West Bank!

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20567

But he said that the Christian community was faced with "very brutal" adversaries. "A criminal mafia and Islamic fundamentalists work together," he said. "Their interests met to take our land away." He said that one man had lost his finger in one land dispute which turned violent and that a group had attacked and injured a Greek orthodox monk at a 5th century monastery outside Bethlehem.

The dossier currently in Church hands details far worse allegations of violence, notably the torture and murder of two Christian girls in 2003 after they were deemed prostitutes. A post mortem examination reportedly proved they were virgins.

Some Christians note that land grabs are common in the growing lawlessness of the West Bank and are not necessarily motivated by sectarian rivalry.

They add that increasingly entrenched Islamic extremism has driven a wedge between the communities, especially over women's dress and freedom of expression.

Several Christians tell the story of a moderate Muslim imam in Bethlehem's biggest mosque, who was repeatedly threatened after giving a sermon calling for an end to the anti-Christian discrimination and land grabs.

Last weekend, the Christian village of Taybeh was ransacked and burned by a Muslim mob, incensed that a boy there had been seeing a girl from their neighbouring village of Deir Jarir.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/09/wmid09.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/09/09/ixworld.html

So just because Muslims have done it over the years, it make it okay for Israelies to do it now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYyWg9Z8I7k&search=palestinian%20christians

IDF prohibit students and teachers from attending schools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYyWg9Z8I7k&search=palestinian%20christians

IDF prohibit students and teachers from attending schools.

All I saw was a bunch of well disciplined soldiers at a check point with a bunch of Bratty kids and teachers. One Muslim woman wins an academy award for pretending to faint in front of a dozen flashing cameras.

One kid wins the ire of the soldiers and is put on a 1.5 hour time out, where is the human rights when you need them?

Brutal it is just too brutal for my eyes to bear.

Wait, I thought you wanted to present how brutal the Israelis were to Christians? Oh, maybe these are Christians, I forgot that in muslim lands all women must dress according to Musilm code.

The whole point was that they refused to have metal detectors waved up and down their bodies. Well, if you don't do that then you don't get past the check point. The check point is there to save lives.

You use it as propaganda to say that Israelis don't allow children to go to school. My, my. Try to be honest, please!

Good job:the Isreali Defence Forces investigating the Isreali Defence Forces,we'll really get to the truth now.....

You think you'd get the truth if the Palestinians investigated? It's never-ending.

No you wouldnt,unfortunatly I can understand that it seems never ending,this is were I think the US could intervene and take an impartial stance on the issue for a change,apart from maybe getting peace,it would make a lot of friends in a part of the world it dosent have many in...............

It seems to me that the only way the U.S. can gain friends in that part of the world is to deny Israel.

It seems to me that the only way the U.S. can gain friends in that part of the world is to deny Israel.


What do you mean deny Israel? Deny that they Exist? Or deny them the billions of dollars we give them to kill innocent palestinians?

googs sez: "... billions of dollars we give them ..."

Just where do you reside?

The Jews have been chased from country to country for eons. Should they back off? Probably so.
I don't have any trouble lessening their "take" from the U.S. foreign policy funds. Were it up to me, I'd take all the money from the foreign aid & place it into rehabilitating the U.S. .. to hell with all the other countries.
IMHO, the Jews have as much right to that land as anyone else. While I'm not much on religion, I did browse the Old Testament and know from reading what I did that the Jews have as much right to that general region as anyone else. Whatever one thinks of the Bible, the Jews are certainly mentioned very early on in the text.

No you wouldnt,unfortunatly I can understand that it seems never ending,this is were I think the US could intervene and take an impartial stance on the issue for a change,apart from maybe getting peace,it would make a lot of friends in a part of the world it dosent have many in...............

That is a great idea! The big Satan helps the Middle East destroy the little Satan so everybody can concentrate on destroying the big Satan.

We made friends in the Middle East when we supported the Jihadist in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union but it didn't stop those very same Jihidist from downing the twin towers and Pentagon. Those are not faithful friends they are just friends as long as we serve their purpose. We are on their list to be conquered.

So you admit the U.S favors Israelies over Palestinians?

Why not? What have the Palestinians ever done for the U.S.?

So you admit the U.S favors Israelies over Palestinians?

Yes, we favor Israelis survival over the Palestines desire to drive them into the Sea. However, most American liberals support Palestine in their desire to end the Jews illegal existence in this world.

My very own wife is a liberal who believes all the Palestine propaganda from the BBC and our local liberal newspaper. Before the internet I believed the BBC but now when I watch them, I already know the news and have been told how the BBC will tell half the truth and they will have some Palestine person on the street tell the the lies that the BBC can't tell. Before the internet I saw the BBC as some great source of news and truth. Now I see them as child like in their poor attempts to misrepresent the truth.

So, Googs you have many friends in the West.

Yes, we favor Israelis survival over the Palestines desire to drive them into the Sea. However, most American liberals support Palestine in their desire to end the Jews illegal existence in this world.Just because someone supports the creation of a Palestinian state and the removal of Israeli forces from Palestinian territories does not mean they wish to see Israel driven into the sea. Many American liberals would simply like to see two independent nations in the region, and not the destruction of the state of Israel.

Having said that, far too many people look at the Israel-Palestine issue with a black-and-white, either-or frame of mind. One side is blameless and merely defending itself, while the other side is evil and murderous and needs to be driven out. Such a mindset is far too simplistic to produce an effective analysis of the situation and only causes the situation to worsen.

The Arab world wants the Palestines to destroy Israel but the Arab world doesn't want Palestines in their countries? Why?

Why should the Palestinians have to emmigrate to other Arab countries when they have a perfectly good country of their own? Why doesn't Israel just end its illegal occupation of Palestine?

That is a great idea! The big Satan helps the Middle East destroy the little Satan so everybody can concentrate on destroying the big Satan.

We made friends in the Middle East when we supported the Jihadist in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union but it didn't stop those very same Jihidist from downing the twin towers and Pentagon. Those are not faithful friends they are just friends as long as we serve their purpose. We are on their list to be conquered.
In Afghanistan the US was working to its own agenda,nobody elses.And believe me,Isreal is no Allie of Americas,it sucks US for everything it can get off it,then does what it wants.

The claims always seem to be the same, if you support the rights of the Palestinians in any way you are either an anti-Semite or a liberal.

I am neither and I can see the wrong on both sides. The Palestinians, with provocation, have committed acts of terrorism directed toward innocent Israelis. The Israelis, with provocation, have committed acts of terrorism directed towar innocent Palestinians.

There is enough wrong to go around and for people to say it is the fault of the Palestinians or it is the fault of the Israelis is simplistict thinking at its most absurd.

The Paletinian territory is being illegaly occupied by Israel. This is a fact accepted by almost the entire world, including the United States.

Israel fomented the Intifada when it allowed Sharon to violate the sanctity of the Holy Mount by visiting it with armed troops in a calculated provocation.

The Palestinians have committed acts of terror, some targeted and some random against both Israeli military and civilian targets.

The Israelis have committed acts of terror, some targeted and some random against Military, political and civilian targets.

Israel is building a wall, entirely on illegally confiscated Palestinian territory in order to isolate the two countries from each other.

Many Palestinians, as well as their Arab neighbors would like to see Israel totally destroyed.

Many Israelis would like to see Palestine totally destroyed and all Arabs removed forcibly from Israel.

Israel illegally confiscates Palestinian land for the benefit of Israelis and to deny those lands to Palestinians.


If one simply looks at the facts it can be seen that there is more than enough blame to go around. It is not all the Palestinian's fault any more than it is all the Israelis fault.

In Afghanistan the US was working to its own agenda,nobody elses.And believe me,Isreal is no Allie of Americas,it sucks US for everything it can get off it,then does what it wants.

You didn't finish the sentence, Israel does what it wants and needs to do to survive. We can help Israel but we can't do their thinking for them.

You didn't finish the sentence, Israel does what it wants and needs to do to survive. We can help Israel but we can't do their thinking for them.
Your right I didnt finish the sentence,Isreal does what it wants,because it has been put in a position of strength by The United States of America.