http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-4752 :(

wow, after all the promises of no draft.. if this goes through i won't be too pleased.

The bill is dated roughly 4 months ago.

I wish there was a universal draft in the United States. I would like to see everyone drafted into the service of his/her country upon completion of high school or on reaching age eighteen, whichever comes later.

Everyone who can hold down a civilian job should be drafted. They should be given basic training for a set amount of time and then serve their country for a period of at least eighteen months. This service can be in the armed forces, teaching in an inner city, working in a hospital, working in a national park, anything that helps others.

After their term of service they should remain on inactive call until the age of forty five after which they are free from possible call up.

This should apply to everyone, male, female, black, white or brown.

They'd better think twice. The only reason people aren't storming the White House and throwing these dumbshits out on their big, fat, oil-rich asses is because there's no draft.
If they must reinstate, by all means, the immediate families of Msgnrs. Bush & Cheney and their various lackeys should go first to fight this insane holy war.
Fuck the draft. If we are making progress over there, the drawdown should have begun over a year ago.

Oh my God, this is ANOTHER Charles Rangel hack job. Chuck Rangel is an off the deep end Lefty who will use anything to discredit the Bush Administration. I'm almost positive it was him and a few other democrats that pulled this stunt during the '04 Presidential Campaign. Then he went out and stated that there was a proposal for the Draft in the works over in Congress and it's all Bush's fault and your kids are going to get drafted to go and fight a losing war in Iraq. :rolleyes: Gotta love politics.

Geez, I'm surprised some of the right leaning members of these boards didn't pick up on this right away. This whole draft proposal is a joke.

Oh my God, this is ANOTHER Charles Rangel hack job. Chuck Rangel is an off the deep end Lefty who will use anything to discredit the Bush Administration. I'm almost positive it was him and a few other democrats that pulled this stunt during the '04 Presidential Campaign. Then he went out and stated that there was a proposal for the Draft in the works over in Congress and it's all Bush's fault and your kids are going to get drafted to go and fight a losing war in Iraq. :rolleyes: Gotta love politics.

Geez, I'm surprised some of the right leaning members of these boards didn't pick up on this right away. This whole draft proposal is a joke.

No doubt you can link to news articles quoting Rangel making these statements.

*sigh*

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ny15_rangel/draftrelease.html

http://baldilocks.typepad.com/baldilocks/2004/10/well_aint_this_.html

Sorry I made you sigh Darth, but that's not what I meant...I mean can you link to some stories quoting Rangel as saying "that there was a proposal for the Draft in the works over in Congress and it's all Bush's fault and your kids are going to get drafted to go and fight a losing war in Iraq.".

Try again.

Oh gee, let's see, I can come pretty close to your demands......

Chuck Hagel quotes.....

Bush is reinstating the draft;

Rangel accused Republicans of using his bill to assuage fears that President Bush had plans to reinstate the draft, stating, “The Republican leadership decision to place the draft legislation on the suspension Calendar is a political maneuver to kill rumors of the President’s intention to reinstate the draft after the November election.”

"As many times as the administration says they are against a draft, all one hears on the Internet and around the country is that we're going to have a draft,'' [Charlie Rangle] said.

Rangel said Tuesday's vote wouldn't quell unease that a draft is coming, although if whoever is president next year wants conscription, he first will have to get Congress' approval, and that seems highly unlikely.


Your kids are going to get drafted;

“It should be subject to hearings and to expert testimony. The administration should come and tell us about our manpower needs, about recruitment and retention, about the extent to which out troops are overextended. And they should give us their views about shared sacrifice. If they did all of those things in a serious way, they would have to admit that my bill is an option.”


"I believe in the draft and this being a shared sacrifice," Rangel said. Rangel also acknowledged, however, that the legislation is also aimed at igniting more controversy and debate around the war in Iraq.

Fairness dictates that the sons and daughters of the white middle and upper classes share the burden of war, Rangel argues.

"I truly believe that those who make the decision and those who support the United States going into war would feel more readily the pain that's involved, the sacrifice that's involved, if they thought that the fighting force would include the affluent and those who historically have avoided this great responsibility," Rangel said.

"I believe that if those calling for war knew their children were more likely to be required to serve - and to be placed in harm's way - there would be more caution and a greater willingness to work with the international community in dealing with Iraq," Rangel wrote in his op-ed.

Fighting a losing war in Iraq;

"As we're waiting for the President's speech, I'm telling you -- as an American with a heavy heart -- that this war is going to get much worse."

When we went over there, Rumsfeld said it would take two or three days or a week or so. Now they're talking about 12 years. The president has to understand, when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging.


Happy?

http://baldilocks.typepad.com/baldilocks/2004/10/well_aint_this_.html


http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000194.html

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/10/06/MNGQA94J861.DTL


http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=61619


http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/575

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-charles-rangel/this-war-is-going-to-get-_b_3333.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/815SpamSpamSpam/posts

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/01/07/draft/index.html

Charles Rangel's "inspiration" for this bill was the fact that he didn't like the way the racial makeup of our VOLUNTEER military compared to the general population.
Did I mention that our military was volunteer?

Did I mention that our military was volunteer?

Most of your volunteers went into the armed forces, because for an education and a steady job, now they are paying with their lives for a bad choice ...

Most of your volunteers went into the armed forces, because for an education and a steady job, now they are paying with their lives for a bad choice ...That is the one of the most absurd things I've heard here in a while.

Charles Rangel's "inspiration" for this bill was the fact that he didn't like the way the racial makeup of our VOLUNTEER military compared to the general population.
Did I mention that our military was volunteer?

Not sure what you're trying to say Brooks.

Oh gee, let's see, I can come pretty close to your demands......

Happy?

http://baldilocks.typepad.com/baldilocks/2004/10/well_aint_this_.html


http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000194.html

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/10/06/MNGQA94J861.DTL


http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=61619


http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/575

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-charles-rangel/this-war-is-going-to-get-_b_3333.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/815SpamSpamSpam/posts

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/01/07/draft/index.html

Jeez Darth, you really need to chill out a bit. :)

Congratulations on getting pretty close.

Not sure what you're trying to say Brooks.Rangel didn't like the idea that we went to war with a military populated by a greater percentage of minorities than the general public is.

The fact that it's a voluntary military makes his point irrelevant.

Most of your volunteers went into the armed forces, because for an education and a steady job, now they are paying with their lives for a bad choice ...

That is the one of the most absurd things I've heard here in a while.

Well, the ***Most of your volunteers went into the armed forces for an education and a steady job** portion is true without a doubt.

And the ***now they are paying with their lives for a bad choice*** portion is true for at least some of the people who joined.

Why anyone would see it as an "absurd" comment is a mystery to me.

Free and Cromagnon, nations have armies numbering in the millions, costing in the trillions. That's not done as a way to provide jobs and education to young men and women. There actually is another purpose to the military.
And these heroes knew that going in.

Charlie Rangel is a demagogic NYC politician who uses race almost as much as Jesse Jackson.

Well, according to wikipedia, the proposition proposed by 4 representatives, and voted down 2-402. Doesn't look like you need to worry about conscription any time soon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States

Most of your volunteers went into the armed forces, because for an education and a steady job, now they are paying with their lives for a bad choice ...

Yet the military isn't having a problem finding recruits, I can also add that re-enlistiments are up as well. Those boys who made "a bad choice" as you call it want to see the job done in Iraq and in Afghanistan, dammit.

Pagan you totally dodged the issue... while there aren't EXACT quotes.. they might as well have been. Can you DENY the fact that Rangel would mention the "draft bill" as a scare tactic in order to undermine the Bush administration??? you can't, AND you can't deny that he FAILED to tell anyone that it was the DEMOCRATS who proposed the bill... so why don't you see this one for what it is... sometimes its things unsaid that speak louder than any words can....

Free and Cromagnon, nations have armies numbering in the millions, costing in the trillions.

?!?!?

Name two.

That's not done as a way to provide jobs and education to young men and women.

And no one has suggested that the reason nations form armies is to provide jobs and education to young men and women.

There actually is another purpose to the military.

Yes, the nations who organize militaries have another purpose.

That , however, does nothing to negate the fact that most individuals who decide to join the military have, as a motivation, the fact that they will have a job and access to education.

And these heroes knew that going in.

?!?!?!

No one has said that they did NOT know it going in.

I think volunteers are fine. People drafted into the military who don't want to be arn't going to be as effective as someone who really wants to be there. I think it comes down to human rights. If it is made into law I think it would be unconstitutional. Another factor is that if you don't agree with the reason for war (like the one we're in now) being drafted would not help.

All of these opinions however I think have been impacted by the media. The big corporations who own all of the media networks just show the same news and it's always negative and biased. You can never get a straight answer! But where else do we even get our information from? And how do we even know any of it is right or wrong just because the media says so? I guess no one will ever know....

All of these opinions however I think have been impacted by the media. The big corporations who own all of the media networks just show the same news and it's always negative and biased.

You make some good points.....but the nightly news is not always *negative*, especially where it concerns news from the Iraq war........THEN, the media and their "embedded" journalistic lackeys can nearly always be counted on to give a positive spin to their coverage.

You make some good points.....but the nightly news is not always *negative*, especially where it concerns news from the Iraq war........THEN, the media and their "embedded" journalistic lackeys can nearly always be counted on to give a positive spin to their coverage.

I do agree with you. I was overexaggerating a bit, but you know where I was getting at.

Don't ya love politics... =D

Don't ya love politics... =D

Love politics, hate far right, warmongering oligarchies.

:cool:

I see that I am in the minority when I say that I think everyone, male and female, should be drafted. If you don't want to be drafted you can always do like I did, enlist.

I've long maintained that all able bodied citizens of this country should serve in some type of service for a minimum of 2 years immediately following high school. If an individual is somehow incapable of handling a weapon, then they can build roads or participate in some other type of public service for the same period of time. In fact, it should be a condition of continued citizenship. Refuse to serve? Get out.

Pagan you totally dodged the issue... while there aren't EXACT quotes.. they might as well have been. Can you DENY the fact that Rangel would mention the "draft bill" as a scare tactic in order to undermine the Bush administration??? you can't,

I never said it wasn't a political ploy, what I maintain is that Rangel never "blamed Bush" for the conscription bill, which is what was implied.


AND you can't deny that he FAILED to tell anyone that it was the DEMOCRATS who proposed the bill...

It's a matter of public record Decka...why would he have to tell anyone?

That is the one of the most absurd things I've heard here in a while.

Why?, ... just because it doesn't please your views, besides it was said by several volunteers from work ... And they are your own people ...
A few, probably, wanted to give their lives for whatever their thoughts were, but a whole bunch of them did it for other reasons not "patriotic" ...

Yet the military isn't having a problem finding recruits, I can also add that re-enlistiments are up as well. Those boys who made "a bad choice" as you call it want to see the job done in Iraq and in Afghanistan, dammit.

Hey! ... They get paid around $5,000 dollars a month, besides if they die, their families are suppose to get around half a million dollars or more, so it is about the money, and they "take the risk" ... Again I say it, a very small percentage do it for what some fanatics call it "patriotism", and what I write, comes from the mouths of many "volunteers", haven't found a single "patriotic guy" yet ...

I guess they just haven't been talking to the right guys.

When I enlisted it was to give something back to my country. I was not alone in enlisting for that reason.

Those who joined the reserves in order to get a free education and some extra money have learned the hard way that there is no such thing as a free lunch. They were willing to take all the benefits but when it came time to pay the piper far too many of them whined.

....and what I write, comes from the mouths of many "volunteers", haven't found a single "patriotic guy" yet ...Is this a random sampling you are doing at bases, or is some other media source presenting the interviews to you?

... And they are your own people Who exactly are my "people"?

Name two.

I was referring collectively to all nations' armies.

Who exactly are my "people"?

Those born in the USA ............

Now, I don't mean that they don't like their country, but it wasn't exactly a "patriotic motivation" that got them in the military.... But, as I said, the chance for an education, a job, hoping that they didn't have to go and fight risking their lives, anyway, it was a gamble .......... Some of the men and women that I know, are just waiting for their pension ................. And they were lucky, they didn't have to go to any war ............

You're right. I didn't mean to sound callous, I just thought the tone of your original point gave the impression that they were duped somehow.

I'm also for the idea that all citizens should serve in some capacity. You can join the military and never have to ever even hold a gun. My great uncle was a Colonel, and he never even had to shoot someone. Actually, he commanded the crew that did maintainence for Air Force One.

I'm also for the idea that all citizens should serve in some capacity. You can join the military and never have to ever even hold a gun. My great uncle was a Colonel, and he never even had to shoot someone. Actually, he commanded the crew that did maintainence for Air Force One.

I just have a few comments on this "universal draft" idea.

Who's to say that serving your country by, say, constructing roads or doing social work is going to be in some way more valuable than getting an education and starting a business? Or doing research? Or even getting involved in the public sector? Just because work is done with the express purpose of serving the state and/or the less fortunate does not mean that it carries with it a higher value then work done for selfish reasons. Bill Gates created his empire with the intention of serving his own selfish dreams and financial goals, but his work was infinately more valualble then any carrer volunteer. We need to be promoting the private initiative, not discouraging it.

Bill Gates created his empire with the intention of serving his own selfish dreams and financial goals, but his work was infinately more valualble then any carrer volunteer.

I wouldn't call the creation of Bill Gates' empire "selfish." Bill Gates created a wonderful computer system (thorns and warts and everything) and was rewarded by it.


We need to be promoting the private initiative, not discouraging it.

Agreed. A flat tax would be a good idea.

I'm also for the idea that all citizens should serve in some capacity.

I think Sweden and Switzerland do as much, I think it gives people a greater sense of who they are and what country they are a part of. But that's just my opinion.

I wouldn't call the creation of Bill Gates' empire "selfish." Bill Gates created a wonderful computer system (thorns and warts and everything) and was rewarded by it.


Sure, but he didn't create the computer empire to serve others, he did it to serve himself. Otherpeople recieveing the fruits of ones labor is just one of the nice little side effects of the free market.

Everyone in any country, not just the US, should either serve in the military or in the civil service (community service) for a period of time ... In some countries, like mine, where education is free, grade & high school, and also college/university (there are minor fees to be paid), right after college/university it is a requirement that they work for the government for two years anywhere in the country where it is needed.

A lot of nations, the United States being one of them, employ vast amounts of manpower which does a number of things, apart from military matters.

It helps the economy.
It keeps unemployment down.

A draft wouldnt work in the present climate I think.
As military matters have become poulticed.

Paul, this thread is two years old!

Paul, this thread is two years old!
I know.
IM BORED.

Paul, this thread is two years old!
I guess McBush hasn't heard about that.

QUESTIONER: If we don’t reenact the draft, I don’t think we’ll have anyone to chase Bin Laden to the gates of hell.

[Appaluse]

MCCAIN: Ma’am, let me say that I don’t disagree with anything you said.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/20/mccain-support-draft/
There's nothin' like The Draft, to help more younger-people get a little-more engaged in the political-process.

It surely made a difference, during the '60s.

http://www.vietnampix.com/fire9b2.htm

I know.
IM BORED.
Try this website:

www.ted.com

QUESTIONER: If we don’t reenact the draft, I don’t think we’ll have anyone to chase Bin Laden to the gates of hell.

[Appaluse]

MCCAIN: Ma’am, let me say that I don’t disagree with anything you said.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/20/...support-draft/

ROTFL.

The questioner was obviously a clueless rightwing flagwaver and she was answered by an ignoramus whose only thought and aim is gaining the presidency.

"chase Bin Laden to the gates of hell"...................guffaw.

These poor deluded individuals who have moronic conversations such as these seemingly know nothing about how deeply the 9/11 attacks were welcomed by the B*sh cabal and their cronies in the PNAC group.

It was Christmas come early for that band of despicable warmongers; exactly what they'd wished for and dreamed of.

It could have been a sarcastic remark to McCain too...

These poor deluded individuals who have moronic conversations such as these seemingly know nothing about how deeply the 9/11 attacks were welcomed by the B*sh cabal and their cronies in the PNAC group.

It was Christmas come early for that band of despicable warmongers; exactly what they'd wished for and dreamed of.
No doubt....an on-going/full-Presidential-term War...the greatest excuse for avoiding all other issues....and, a great cover/distraction-from Big Oil's/Weapons Industry's on-going rape of our economy.

.....And his Legacy-machine keeps-on-rollin'.........

"The New York Times' page 8 placement of the article in its Saturday edition seems to downplay its importance. Such a re-affirmation of war carries broad legal implications that could imperil Americans' civil liberties and the rights of foreign nationals for decades to come."

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Bush_seeks_to_institutionalize_war_powers_0830.htm l