There's been that stuff in the news about the Vatican "loosening" their position on condoms. With technology these days, can't there be a way to make condoms that will let a woman get pregnant, but it prevents AIDS. I think the church would approve this, but would anyone use them?

I have no idea how such a thing would work. HIV is a lot smaller than sperm, so any pores that allow sperm through would have to let HIV through as well. Also, don't forget that HIV is not the only STD around, and others such as HPV, herpes, and Hepatitis C shouldn't be allowed to spread either.

Condoms were never intended to prevent STD. Condoms were designed to stop sperms and hence avoid pregnancy. What you are proposing if made should be called something else entirely, for it will serve a completely different purpose than do condoms.

There's been that stuff in the news about the Vatican "loosening" their position on condoms. With technology these days, can't there be a way to make condoms that will let a woman get pregnant, but it prevents AIDS. I think the church would approve this, but would anyone use them?

:hahanot: :hahanot: :hahanot: :hahanot: :hahanot:


That negates one of the big reasons you wear a rubber!!!!! if you wanna wear a rubber but still get pregnant, just go at it raw. if you are afraid of disease, then why would you want to get her pregnant and possible pass that along to the child?

I have no idea how such a thing would work. HIV is a lot smaller than sperm, so any pores that allow sperm through would have to let HIV through as well.

Which is why you're not supposed to use the natural sheepskin condoms, because they supposedly have small pores that let viruses through.

There's been that stuff in the news about the Vatican "loosening" their position on condoms. With technology these days, can't there be a way to make condoms that will let a woman get pregnant, but it prevents AIDS. I think the church would approve this, but would anyone use them?

Ten or fifteen years ago there was this panel of science people on TV, the discussion was about AIDS (SIDA where I come from) and the use of condoms ... One of them, the doctor, explained that even with the use of condoms there is a big chance that you could get AIDS, since the porosity of the material of what condoms are made (latex) being these the holes like in a fishing net, the HIV virus is way to small to be stopped from going through the latex, the male cells (spermatozoids) are way too many times bigger than the HIV viruses, the condom will stop the spermatozoids, but not the HIV virus.

So I don't think technology can produce a condom with the specifications mentioned by you....

A condom is a net that stops sharks, but not anchovies .....

Cromagnon, your tag line should be read as it was intended when it was written.

While John Stuart Mill is called a liberal, he was not a liberal in the modern sense but in the classical sense, nor were conservatives conservative in the modern sense. John Stuart Mill was a Utilitarian and far from a modern day liberal.

Were John Stuart Mill the same as a modern day liberal would he have written his eloquent defense of capital punishment?


If mankind minus one were of one opinion, then mankind is no more justified in silencing the one than the one - if he had the power - would be justified in silencing mankind.
John Stuart Mill


War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill

- More quotations on: [War]
Everyone who receives the protection of society owes a return for the benefit.

John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Cromagnon, your tag line should be read as it was intended when it was written.

I'll just scratch his name off to make it up to date ... The past is there buried already, the words, as I intend them to be, are for today ... Alive, with a new meaning ...

The vaticans position on condoms is a disgrace. They need to move into the 21st century instead of being stuck in the middle ages.

My response would be fuck the vatican and whatever they think about condoms. They are just a bunch of bigoted morons to say condom use is wrong - even in the face of issues like aids. They turn a blind eye to their ranks habitually abusing children and then turn around and say condom use is a ticket to hell. Are these people for real or what?

The vaticans position on condoms is a disgrace. They need to move into the 21st century instead of being stuck in the middle ages.

My response would be fuck the vatican and whatever they think about condoms. They are just a bunch of bigoted morons to say condom use is wrong - even in the face of issues like aids. They turn a blind eye to their ranks habitually abusing children and then turn around and say condom use is a ticket to hell. Are these people for real or what?


Wow! fuck the vatican. don't forget that there have been ministers of other religions caught molesting boys. and they aren't turning a blind eye. the Catholic church has strict beliefs and they have them for a reason. For those that don't konw, and me being raised Catholic, condom use is allowed in some instances but they want you to speak with your pastor about it. now i don't think need to talk to the priest about me and my wife using protection b/c we don't want kids...but that's how it's done round here. personally, as an agnostic, i think many "laws" are old and don't fit society today. i have pre marital sex, but i'm not a whore. i do it with people i fall in love with(nowadays, i was bad in college) condom use is to protect both parties. the idea of using it to get pregnant but prevent a STD is ridiculous. If you don't want those risks, don't have sex or have sex witha clean person....nobody ever got pregnant from swallowing or anal.:drinktoth

Yeah - fuck the Vatican. Why not? They are just a bunch of pompous assholes in $5000 silly robes and stupid ideas. The only reason they retain any "relevance" is their in place program of brainwashing from the womb.

They have all kinds of really dumb ideas - like Condoms are a sin. That is dumb idea No.1, but closely behind is praying to dead people, and whatever crap comes out the mouth of Pope "I used to be in the hitler youth" is to be laughed at by any person with half a brain.

Whatever RC followers do that helps other people I applaud, but the sanctimonius crap is crap plain & simple.

The vaticans position on condoms is a disgrace. They need to move into the 21st century instead of being stuck in the middle ages.It's no surprise they are trying to relive the carnage of their 'glory days' aka the dark ages.

I was watching a thing on the vatican and something struck me. Vatican city has no trees and no animals. How is this a memorial to god when it has utterly obliterated all but one of s/his creations?

Originally posted by DrewM
Yeah - fuck the Vatican. Why not? They are just a bunch of pompous assholes in $5000 silly robes and stupid ideas. The only reason they retain any "relevance" is their in place program of brainwashing from the womb.

They have all kinds of really dumb ideas - like Condoms are a sin. That is dumb idea No.1, but closely behind is praying to dead people, and whatever crap comes out the mouth of Pope "I used to be in the hitler youth" is to be laughed at by any person with half a brain.

Whatever RC followers do that helps other people I applaud, but the sanctimonius crap is crap plain & simple.

Excellent. And Right On.

The brainwashing is scarey, especially for new mothers who cannot take their child outside of the home until baptismal. I mean, WTF? Doesn't the bible tell us to be like little children and come unto him? You'd think that if something fatal happened, the newborn would automatically proceed to heaven anyway. Unreal.

I haven't had my kids baptised at all, they are 13 ad 9. I figure their choice in religion is THEIR choice. They can decide what to follow when they are adults and understand all the hoopla surrounding it.

Born and raised Catholic, though somehow a free thinker, having my personal views, but still within the Catholics, which by the way means "Universal". Every group (religious or not) has had it's dark ages, but those days are gone, can't be recalling what others did before to criticize today's world. Catholics don't attack Protestants, they (we) simply don't care what they have to say, but keep a respect for anyone, even to Protestants, but Protestants loose our respect when all they can utter are nasty unintelligent words, that come out of who knows where, but not from their brains. Let it be guys, not everyone in this world has to think or believe the same way, are we getting again into that crap that states, "my religion, is the true religion"?

"Anyway, having sex with a condom, is like taking a shower with a raincoat"

Have a nice evening....!

Wow! Your anti-Catholicism is really getting the best of you, Drew.

Just calling it like it is.

Actually, you're calling it as you think it is, not as it is. I gather you haven't been around very many Roman Catholics and are still carrying that Oliver Cromwell hatred around inside you.

Go to a Roman Catholic mass and you will see people just like you, men and women, boys and girls, old and young, some more religious than others but all there to communion in their own way with God. Sure, they see things differently than some other Christian churches. They are heirarchical where most Protestant churches are not. They have a top down setup rather than a congregational one. The Pops, when speaking ex cathedra speaks for all Roman Catholics. There is no analogous position in Protestant churches.

I was calling it as it is.

I didn't say anything about the people that go to RC church. I was talking about the RC church as an institution.

The are a billion people in the RC church so I am sure there are a lot of good people among those ranks. Though of course in that billion only a tiny fraction are actually practicing. The fact that they let some bigot asshole "infallable" fool in the vatican "speak for them" is simply something one can chuckle at - but it doesn't make them bad people. They are victims of upbringing.

http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s3i10725

I am not Roman Catholic but the fact that you call The Pope a bigotted asshole says it all as far as I am concerned. You say of the billions of Roman Catholics in the world only a small fraction actually practice their faith. You have made blanket accusations about the Roman Catholic priesthood.

It seems you are a product of your upbringing and that upbringing has caused you to be an anti-Roman Catholic bigot.

Its the Anglican in him,youll get used to it......This message was brought to you by the worst Catholic in Ireland.....

I am not Roman Catholic but the fact that you call The Pope a bigotted asshole says it all as far as I am concerned. You say of the billions of Roman Catholics in the world only a small fraction actually practice their faith. You have made blanket accusations about the Roman Catholic priesthood.

It seems you are a product of your upbringing and that upbringing has caused you to be an anti-Roman Catholic bigot.

It's got nothing to do with Anglicanism, and it has everything to do with stark reality. You just can't face the truth it seems.

The guy claims to be "infallable" - what a crock of shit that is. Really - anybody who believes that is a damn fool plain and simple, especially considering the guy was a young brownshirt in the hitler youth.

The RC thinks contraception is a sin ! - another crock of shit. They even go so far to promote an agenda of anti-condom use. Never mind that half of africa is dying of Aids. The Pope can feel good sitting in his palace with his gold slippers using his infallible wisdom to save souls. Bravo! Sounds like a pretty good description of a bigoted asshole to me. Like I said - I'm just telling it as it is.

The RC has a lock on minds because people grow up in it. The hardcore followers can be found at RC book stores buying up saintly relics for their mantle at home or rubbing cloth on saints statues. Relics a plenty for the masses - with more saints than you can count it's a growing business!

Lets not even mention the multitude of child abuse sanctioned by the RC church where they neglected for centuries to do anything except actively sweep it under the rug. The only reason it is being addressed now is it threatens the whole franchise and was starting to cost them some serious money in lawsuits. It's not the fact that a small minority of priests are abusers that reflects negatively on the RC church, it's the systematic approach to dealing with it that speaks volumes about the mentality of the RC church. They knew it was wrong and did nothing, worse than that they moved these abusers to new churches where they could start afresh with some new kids.

The RC are not alone in stupidity, they are joined by mormons, JW's, Muslims, Jews, Baptists and so on. Pick any religion and you'll find nothing but a different shade of bullshit with brainwashed followers, but the RC church is certainly near the top of the list for the amount of death and suffering it has created in this world and must be close to No.1 for trading in guilt & fear.

The only thing the RC church loves more than guilt is money (and occasionally young boys)

What about live and let live,il agree some of the RCs mentality is out of cink with modern times,thats why youll find dwindling numbers in modernised country's the end of the day I dont give a shit what someone believes in,as long as they dont put it in my face,as for anti Catholicism,theres a lot of it around,were I live,it was/has been the most important factor in British rule in Ireland for 800 years,but was always disguised as something else.Fair play to you,youve no problem calling a spade a spade,as for the Pope being in the Hitler Youth,so what,I think a Nazi or two helped put an American on the moon......

Yes but Von Braun never claimed to be God's vicar & be infallible.

I don't care either what anybody believes in, I have no problem with RC as people. It's the RC church that stinks.

Drew, you have mentioned the fact that Pope Benedict was a member of the Hitler Youth more than once. Here is what Wilkopedia says about that.

Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth as membership was legally required after December 1936.[3] According to one of Ratzinger's biographers, the National Catholic Reporter correspondent John Allen, he was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings. His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, because he believed it was in conflict with their faith.

He didn't voluntarily become some sort of ardent supporter of Adolf Hitler by joining the Hitler Youth and becoming an enthusiastict member. His family opposed Hitler.

I am surprised at your intellectual dishonesty and can only explain it by your virulent anti-Catholicism. As the husbanad of a Roman Catholic woman and the father of two Roman Catholic sons I personally find your views repugnant.

The guy claims to be "infallable"
On spiritual matters.

It's got nothing to do with Anglicanism, and it has everything to do with stark reality. You just can't face the truth it seems.

Why does "you can't face the truth" seem like it can be used at ANY time.... I think Frogger is onto something.

The guy claims to be "infallable" - what a crock of shit that is. Really - anybody who believes that is a damn fool plain and simple, especially considering the guy was a young brownshirt in the hitler youth.

nice to see the whole hitler youth thing was debunked.. next

The RC thinks contraception is a sin ! - another crock of shit. They even go so far to promote an agenda of anti-condom use. Never mind that half of africa is dying of Aids. The Pope can feel good sitting in his palace with his gold slippers using his infallible wisdom to save souls. Bravo! Sounds like a pretty good description of a bigoted asshole to me. Like I said - I'm just telling it as it is.

You are giving your opinion... don't let your ego race and actually think that you are always correct. While you have some points that i DO agree with... you aren't the guy who is always right... noone is. So just exercise the possiblity that you might be wrong, and don't come off as being 100% correct on this issue, because it's annoying and anyone can do it.

The RC has a lock on minds because people grow up in it. The hardcore followers can be found at RC book stores buying up saintly relics for their mantle at home or rubbing cloth on saints statues. Relics a plenty for the masses - with more saints than you can count it's a growing business!

I would say the same thing for the music industry, MTV, and other things...

Lets not even mention the multitude of child abuse sanctioned by the RC church where they neglected for centuries to do anything except actively sweep it under the rug. The only reason it is being addressed now is it threatens the whole franchise and was starting to cost them some serious money in lawsuits. It's not the fact that a small minority of priests are abusers that reflects negatively on the RC church, it's the systematic approach to dealing with it that speaks volumes about the mentality of the RC church. They knew it was wrong and did nothing, worse than that they moved these abusers to new churches where they could start afresh with some new kids.

They are worried about their image.. and they probably DID handle it wrong..

The RC are not alone in stupidity, they are joined by mormons, JW's, Muslims, Jews, Baptists and so on. Pick any religion and you'll find nothing but a different shade of bullshit with brainwashed followers, but the RC church is certainly near the top of the list for the amount of death and suffering it has created in this world and must be close to No.1 for trading in guilt & fear.

Nice to see you are attempting to not ONLY include the Roman Catholic Church... but many people feel a power and strength when having a relationship with God. So it's not ALL about "being brainwashed" when there IS proof in the pudding.

The only thing the RC church loves more than guilt is money (and occasionally young boys)

LOL... while i enjoy the insult... its obvious you have a bone to pick with the RC... so you are to roman catholics like Freethinker is with christians in general... and i'll accept you as having a bias opinion.

Drew, you have mentioned the fact that Pope Benedict was a member of the Hitler Youth more than once. Here is what Wilkopedia says about that.

Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth as membership was legally required after December 1936.[3] According to one of Ratzinger's biographers, the National Catholic Reporter correspondent John Allen, he was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings. His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, because he believed it was in conflict with their faith.

He didn't voluntarily become some sort of ardent supporter of Adolf Hitler by joining the Hitler Youth and becoming an enthusiastict member. His family opposed Hitler.

I am surprised at your intellectual dishonesty and can only explain it by your virulent anti-Catholicism. As the husbanad of a Roman Catholic woman and the father of two Roman Catholic sons I personally find your views repugnant.

I only added in the Hitler youth part because it's irresistable not to mention it, but it bears no relevance to the points I made. Incidentally I do think it's hilarious how his own biographers now write "he was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings" It's like Clinton saying he smoked pot but didn't inhale. What do you expect them to write? Regardless - the hitler youth part is irrelevant.

As the husbanad of a Roman Catholic woman and the father of two Roman Catholic sons I personally find your views repugnant.

So now we get to the bottom of your support of RC baloney. Frogger my views about the Roman Catholic church are not a critique of your choice in a wife, but if you choose to make it be that, then that's not my problem.

I think it's interesting that somebody who calls out the obvious is branded as somebody with an axe to grind against the RC church. What axe could I possibly have to grind? I just think a guy living in a gold palace wearing gold slippers pontificating about condom use being a sin is a complete asshole. It's not an unreasonable conclusion to reach.

I just think a guy living in a gold palace wearing gold slippers pontificating about condom use being a sin is a complete asshole.
Funny, drew.

Drew, I'm not married to a Baptist or a Jew either and I would find your views just as repugnant if you voiced similar ones about their religion.

Why? What specifically do you find repugnant? That I called the pope an asshole? He's just a person. He isn't God. He shits just like you and I. I find the concept of a pope in a gold palace moralizing to the world highly repugnant.

Are you one of those people that can't stand any reality when it comes to religion?

Should people just keep their mouths shut when it comes to religion?

I don't care either what anybody believes in, I have no problem with RC as people. It's the RC church that stinks.
================================================== =

I do not care for any organization that takes away the right of individuals to think for themselves.

Example:
From Widipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church#The_nature_of_God

THE CHURCH
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, states that authentic interpretation of the Word of God is entrusted to the living Magisterium of the Church, namely the bishops in communion with the successor of Saint Peter. Catholic theology places the authoritative interpretation of the Scriptures in the hands of the consistant judgement of the Church down the ages (what has always and everywhere been taught) rather than the private judgement of the individual.

Would you have the same opinion of the various royal houses scattered around the world,some of them are 'mini popes',in that they are the head of their countrys religions...

Would you have the same opinion of the various royal houses scattered around the world,some of them are 'mini popes',in that they are the head of their countrys religions...

Absolutely, although the comparison is fairly bogus.

For example - the Queen is the head of the church of england, but it's doesn't mean anything & nobody ever claims that it does.

Im sure it means a lot to the Queen,and to the church,isnt it enshrined into British Law also....

Im sure it means a lot to the Queen,and to the church,isnt it enshrined into British Law also....

Maybe it does mean a lot to the Queen - I don't know. She isn't in any form an active player in the church of england, so I doubt it means much. It certainly doesn't mean anything anybody else.

People's view of the Royal Family is they are good tourist attractions but not much more than that. The Queen also doesn't make statements like "condoms are a sin". If she started making comments like that - the Royal Family would be gone in 20 seconds.

The Queens statements would go thru her press secretary,approved by Parliament,before their released to the public,but I get your drift........

I was calling it as it is.

I didn't say anything about the people that go to RC church. I was talking about the RC church as an institution.

The are a billion people in the RC church so I am sure there are a lot of good people among those ranks. Though of course in that billion only a tiny fraction are actually practicing. The fact that they let some bigot asshole "infallable" fool in the vatican "speak for them" is simply something one can chuckle at - but it doesn't make them bad people. They are victims of upbringing.

http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s3i10725

Drew,
Do your homework!! The Pope is only, ONLY infalliable on church doctrine. He is human and makes mistakes. I was born and raised Catholic, though right now I am not anti religion, I just do not participate.

Drew,
Do your homework!! The Pope is only, ONLY infalliable on church doctrine.
But the incident being argued here for the most part is condoms and their "sinful nature." There is a problem with that, since it exists in a world of church doctrine under the idea of papal infallibility.

He may not be right on every sort of issue, but his stance on condoms happens to be one where he is supposedly "infallible", so Drew's arguments are still valid.

But the incident being argued here for the most part is condoms and their "sinful nature." There is a problem with that, since it exists in a world of church doctrine under the idea of papal infallibility.

He may not be right on every sort of issue, but his stance on condoms happens to be one where he is supposedly "infallible", so Drew's arguments are still valid.

Yeah, but his argument was the pope is infalliable, giving a broader range of topics than in reality. That and Catholic clergy weren't the only molesting little boys. And it's not your religion, so why should it matter. i'm not wanting to stir up shit but, that's how i see it

Yeah, but his argument was the pope is infalliable, giving a broader range of topics than in reality. That and Catholic clergy weren't the only molesting little boys. And it's not your religion, so why should it matter. i'm not wanting to stir up shit but, that's how i see it Christians in Africa face problems with AIDS infecting and killing millions upon millions, all the while they are told that condoms are sinful, even in the context of marriage or disease. That may not effect me, but the policy work of the Vatican sure does effect a great deal of people in the world, so it matters.

I do not care for any organization that takes away the right of individuals to think for themselves.

Dan, no one is taking away their ability to think for themselves. What athe church says is for someone to be a Roman Catholic in good standing they have to follow these rules. It is the same for most organizations. I am a Mason and I have to follow certain rules if I wish to remain a Mason. When I was a Boy Scout I had to follow certain rules in order to remain in good standing.

No one is being forced to be a Roman Catholic. If people feel the rules of the Roman Catholic Church are too onerous to follow they are free to leave the church. We have examples of people who did just that among our posters.

I do not care for any organization that takes away the right of individuals to think for themselves.

Dan, no one is taking away their ability to think for themselves. What athe church says is for someone to be a Roman Catholic in good standing they have to follow these rules. It is the same for most organizations. I am a Mason and I have to follow certain rules if I wish to remain a Mason. When I was a Boy Scout I had to follow certain rules in order to remain in good standing.

No one is being forced to be a Roman Catholic. If people feel the rules of the Roman Catholic Church are too onerous to follow they are free to leave the church. We have examples of people who did just that among our posters.

Yes but you are missing the point completely.

Religion, RC or whatever is ingrained into people from birth. Sure the have an ability to leave it, but it will still fuck with their mind for the rest of their life.

I do not care for any organization that takes away the right of individuals to think for themselves.

Dan, no one is taking away their ability to think for themselves. What athe church says is for someone to be a Roman Catholic in good standing they have to follow these rules. It is the same for most organizations. I am a Mason and I have to follow certain rules if I wish to remain a Mason. When I was a Boy Scout I had to follow certain rules in order to remain in good standing.

No one is being forced to be a Roman Catholic. If people feel the rules of the Roman Catholic Church are too onerous to follow they are free to leave the church. We have examples of people who did just that among our posters.
=========================================

Right, to remain in "good standing" one must follow the rules. There was a time that to not have this good standing one could lose their life. Today it could merely mean your prosperity, or social status.

You mention the Masons. I know many good people that belong.
Myself, I turned down the opportunity. As you can tell by now I am not much for rituals and handed down rules and regulations that are not so secret anymore.
I have had no need for TWSNH or secret hand shakes that massage the...

The Boy Scouts are a great institution, but hardly an example. I see no history of them killing in the name of God or going on a rape, stealing, land grabbing expedition in the name of a supreme being.

I do not just point out the bad potentials of the Catholic faith. Heck, go back in the bible and follow the path of Moses. They make todays Islamic extremists look like amateurs. The followers of Moses attacked whole cities and killed every living creature there. Men, women, children and animals.
Supposedly led by a loving god.

I am merely saying that because of organized religions and the interpretation of their rules and regulations the potential is there for hate, harm, prejudice and killing. Those blind to this potential can be contributing with every monetary offering.

Fine, you people are anti-religious and think it is hunky dory to call the head of a religious body a crooked asshole. Since you feel free to call people who believe differently than you assholes, I will exercise the same freedom and say all you anti-religious people are a bunch of assholes.

If you think the discussion can sink to that level when discussing The Pope I have no problem with keeping it at that level when discussing you.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Thats fine, you have every much the same right to call me an asshole as I do calling the pope an asshole.

I might well be an asshole but I can sleep well at night knowing I am not directly responsible for the deaths of thousands and thousands in Africa. The pope I am sure sleeps well in his 50 thousand thread count gold stitched sheets but he can't claim to sleep well for that reason.

You are right it is an issue of difference in belief - I personally believe that actively contributing to the death of others is wrong. That's a view the Pope & I don't share.

Fine, you people are anti-religious and think it is hunky dory to call the head of a religious body a crooked asshole. Since you feel free to call people who believe differently than you assholes, I will exercise the same freedom and say all you anti-religious people are a bunch of assholes.

If you think the discussion can sink to that level when discussing The Pope I have no problem with keeping it at that level when discussing you.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
================================================== ==

Thank you for furnishing an example of what I have been talking about.
We have progressed rapidly from a point where one person called the pope an a-hole, to a reply that all people that are anti-religious are a bunch of a-holes.
If we were countries what would come next? Airplanes crashing buildings or outright invasion?

Dan, I woke up this morning with every intention of deleting that post but after reading your response I am going to leave it up on the screen as is.

You seem to be taking umbrage at being lumped in with a group I have called assholes. Fine. Take umbrage. I take umbrage when The Pope is called a crooked asshole. He is not my religious leader and I think he is wrong in many of his ideas but there is a way to discuss that without the name calling. I find you to be a bit of a hypocrite for being upset by my calling non-religious people assholes while seemingly feeling it is perfectly okay to call the head of what is probably the world's largest religious body an asshole. Perhaps hypocrite is too strong a word but I don't know what other word would fit.

As I said, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Dan...
You seem to be taking umbrage at being lumped in with a group I have called assholes.
===============================================
No, I am not offended at all. It helps prove my points perfectly.
Organized religion, with the best of intentions, takes on the personalities of the people it is comprised of.
The leader(s) of the people may, at least in the minds of the followers, be directed by a supreme being. Yet, he is just a human being that has been voted into a particular status. That human brings with him the patterns that have been established in his personality by his previous environment. His wants rule his recommendations to the establishment.

It is just like any other business in principal. No pope would be elected that did not have the chairman of the board attitude that the organization comes first. It must be maintained. The followers would be a second thought, instruments to financially support, and carry out the directives of the church.
Similar to a government and its tax payers. It is controlled by men, with both public and private directives. The public directives, of course, to keep the constitutes happy.

The pope is powerless to condone the use of contraceptives. He is allowed only the positions of the power structure within the church. It is politics. He is more a pawn of this power structure than the president is to congress. The Cardinals would only elect a pope that would follow their personal ideas of what the church should be.
I have a feeling, that if he suddenly had ideas that threatened the power of the church, he would not wake up in the morning.

HI: Well I am new to this topic but,
I feel if you feel a need to have your man wear a condom, then maybe there might be a problem. Other then not wanting to get pregnant and using this method to prevent pregnancy. The only other reason I see for a condom is sex with a man you don't fully now or trust. In today's society with all the
this like aids and std's unproteced sex with someone you aren't sure of is like playing with a loaded gun. Again like I said this is just my feelings on this topic and maybe not the same as everyone elses. HEHE

Welcome shortstuff!

Welcome shortstuff!


Thanks, Looking forward to some fun here, hehe

Shortstuff, being a zookeeper you should fit right in with the animals here. We have monkies, jackasses, parrots, even a jackel or two. Of course I am the only amphibian among the bunch.

:flowers:

The public directives, of course, to keep the constitutes happy.



Actually, the public directives more often than not do not keep the constituents happy. Most RCs would prefer to have birth control allowed, many are personally in favor of abortion, many prefered keeping the tridentine service. The public directives are what The Pope and the Cardinals think is best for the church not what is the most popular flavor of the day.

I take umbrage when The Pope is called a crooked asshole. He is not my religious leader and I think he is wrong in many of his ideas but there is a way to discuss that without the name calling.

I still don't understand why calling the pope an asshole is so offensive to you. Plenty of people here call the President an asshole but you don't appear to find that offensive. Is it that you place the pope in high esteem for no reason other than he is a religious leader no matter what the facts are?

The pope as a person may be a nice guy - I don't know. What we can say is his church is actively involved in killing people. The asshole reference doesn't seem too far off.

It seems to me that your reaction reflects a knee jerk reaction to 'oh my you can't call the pope an asshole' - he's something you must respect no matter if you are a RC or not. I ask the question again - why? You have so far refused to answer that & tend towards lame-o comments about it being somehow wrong to call any religious leader an asshole.

Shortstuff, being a zookeeper you should fit right in with the animals here. We have monkies, jackasses, parrots, even a jackel or two. Of course I am the only amphibian among the bunch.

:flowers:


thanks Frogger

Sounds like I jumped in on a hot topic. Sits back with the popcorn and watches the show. So you are the amphibian one hehehe cool.
Can't wait to meet some of the others.

Actually, the public directives more often than not do not keep the constituents happy. Most RCs would prefer to have birth control allowed, many are personally in favor of abortion, many prefered keeping the tridentine service. The public directives are what The Pope and the Cardinals think is best for the church not what is the most popular flavor of the day.
===========================================
I am sure a minority disagree with public directives.
But, I believe, that if a majority disagreed to the extent of dropping the faith and no longer financially supporting the church, say concerning condom use, you would suddenly see the church handing out condoms by the case. Probably under the guise of a sudden "message" from god to the pope.


For information, I saw on the news today that finally the aids in Africa is backing down some. One of the main contributors listed was more use of condoms.

Welcome, shortstuff.

I forget where I read this (please don't ask me to list a source), but attendance at Catholic services in the US is way down. Young men entering the priesthood, in terms of numbers, is also way down. Many dioceses have had to close or consolodate themselves into larger parishes. Giving to Catholic charities is at an all-time low. Many diocese coffers are all but bare.

Much of this has to do with the sex scandals that have rocked the Church . Also inroads by other, perhaps less strict, denominations.

The church is fighting for its very existence. It has not faced such rocky times since the Reformation.

I wonder what their solution will be--if there is one. Continue to maintain the status quo, or perhaps bend with the times?

In any event, the church as we know it might soon be a thing of the past.

The pope as a person may be a nice guy - I don't know.

Your posts don't bear out your statement that The Pope may be a nice guy. You didn't attack the office of Pope, you attacked the man. You called him a crooked asshole. That doesn't sound like something you would say about someone who might be a nice guy.

I wonder what their solution will be--if there is one. Continue to maintain the status quo, or perhaps bend with the times? It will bend with the times, just as it did with the ecumenical council of Vatican II. If the Church didn't progressively change with the times, it wouldn't have survived this long, and while it's not blows to their values that are causing change, just monetary, that doesn't stop the fact the things such as their stance on condoms will soon be cast aside by the industrialized world.

Welcome shortstuff,whats the BC stand for......

British Columbia
http://www.hayriver.com/assets/map-canada.jpg

Thank you my friend,from looking at your map,you guys could rush Vancouver,and join Alaska to the rest of the country,just a thought..........

Your posts don't bear out your statement that The Pope may be a nice guy. You didn't attack the office of Pope, you attacked the man. You called him a crooked asshole. That doesn't sound like something you would say about someone who might be a nice guy.

And once again I ask - why does it bother you?

Thank you my friend,from looking at your map,you guys could rush Vancouver,and join Alaska to the rest of the country,just a thought..........
War with Canada---that'd be sweet! Where's Shedevil when I need someone to kill the moment?

Welcome shortstuff,whats the BC stand for......


HI thanks:

BC is the abrv for British Columbia. That is the province I live in. hehe
:woohoo: :woohoo:

British Columbia and Alberta are the two parts of Canada I most like. They are much more independent than the rest of Canada and I fully expect them to one day secede from Canada.

I forget where I read this (please don't ask me to list a source), but attendance at Catholic services in the US is way down. Young men entering the priesthood, in terms of numbers, is also way down. Many dioceses have had to close or consolodate themselves into larger parishes. Giving to Catholic charities is at an all-time low. Many diocese coffers are all but bare.

Much of this has to do with the sex scandals that have rocked the Church . Also inroads by other, perhaps less strict, denominations.

The church is fighting for its very existence. It has not faced such rocky times since the Reformation.

I wonder what their solution will be--if there is one. Continue to maintain the status quo, or perhaps bend with the times?

In any event, the church as we know it might soon be a thing of the past.

That doesn't suprise me one bit... but don't blame it on "sex scandals" for the drop in attendence and and preisthood. Blame it on being tattoo'd a weirdo and a dork in elementary school and high school.. because in today's teen world if you aren't about sex and drinking, you aren't anything.... While some kids can blow it off.. others want to be "cool", so they DO have sex and DO drink uncontrollably.. and pretty soon find themselves completely divided from the church.

Now, don't think that JUST drinking and sex means you can't be a christian.. because i do both and i consider myself a "christian" in the lightest term. But the acts and thinking that normally go along with sex and drinking help you elevate into someone who ISN'T doing "God's good work"... Once you are "popular" you gossip, you stab people in the back(figuratively speaking), you get dragged into drama and do things without clearly thinking, you put more value into your car or money than God, you try to look tough by saying bad things about people, you actually get into physical conflicts..... School kids can't handle all that... most ADULTS couldn't handle it, luckily most adults know better.

But to sum it up... blame the society we live in today.... because church just "isn't cool".. and that fact alone is good enough for 75% of kids nowadays to stay away from it... i mean, come on... most girls would trade in heaven for Paris Hilton's popularity anyday.

That doesn't suprise me one bit... but don't blame it on "sex scandals" for the drop in attendence and and preisthood. Blame it on being tattoo'd a weirdo and a dork in elementary school and high school.. because in today's teen world if you aren't about sex and drinking, you aren't anything.... While some kids can blow it off.. others want to be "cool", so they DO have sex and DO drink uncontrollably.. and pretty soon find themselves completely divided from the church.

Now, don't think that JUST drinking and sex means you can't be a christian.. because i do both and i consider myself a "christian" in the lightest term. But the acts and thinking that normally go along with sex and drinking help you elevate into someone who ISN'T doing "God's good work"... Once you are "popular" you gossip, you stab people in the back(figuratively speaking), you get dragged into drama and do things without clearly thinking, you put more value into your car or money than God, you try to look tough by saying bad things about people, you actually get into physical conflicts..... School kids can't handle all that... most ADULTS couldn't handle it, luckily most adults know better.

But to sum it up... blame the society we live in today.... because church just "isn't cool".. and that fact alone is good enough for 75% of kids nowadays to stay away from it... i mean, come on... most girls would trade in heaven for Paris Hilton's popularity anyday.

Wow - you've got a jaded view of life.

Now, don't think that JUST drinking and sex means you can't be a christian.. because i do both and i consider myself a "christian" in the lightest term.

What does in the 'lightest terms' mean? You either are or you are not. I don't believe that there is a semi-christian 'lite' religion available.If so - tell us what is it's creed? It sounds more like you simply pander to reminants of something instilled in your childhood, a form of appeasement to old conditioning?

That doesn't suprise me one bit... but don't blame it on "sex scandals" for the drop in attendence and and preisthood. Blame it on being tattoo'd a weirdo and a dork in elementary school and high school.. because in today's teen world if you aren't about sex and drinking, you aren't anything.... While some kids can blow it off.. others want to be "cool", so they DO have sex and DO drink uncontrollably.. and pretty soon find themselves completely divided from the church.

Now, don't think that JUST drinking and sex means you can't be a christian.. because i do both and i consider myself a "christian" in the lightest term. But the acts and thinking that normally go along with sex and drinking help you elevate into someone who ISN'T doing "God's good work"... Once you are "popular" you gossip, you stab people in the back(figuratively speaking), you get dragged into drama and do things without clearly thinking, you put more value into your car or money than God, you try to look tough by saying bad things about people, you actually get into physical conflicts..... School kids can't handle all that... most ADULTS couldn't handle it, luckily most adults know better.

But to sum it up... blame the society we live in today.... because church just "isn't cool".. and that fact alone is good enough for 75% of kids nowadays to stay away from it... i mean, come on... most girls would trade in heaven for Paris Hilton's popularity anyday.
Wow have to agree on most of what you say, If you go to church or a youth group in todays society they look at you as a freak. I don't go to church only because I have had more bad things happen to me in my life then good. If there is a god then why did these things happen to me. So with that being said, I still have a higher self esteem about my body and what I will and won't do with it. I feel condoms are a very personal choice and it totally depends on the relationship you are in to whether you use them or not. I don't believe it is the church's place to say whether condoms are good or bad they are just a responsible choices if you are going to have sex. Better safe then sorry I feel. Where we differ is on your statement that all girls want to trade in heaven for paris hilton's popularity. Well popularity her style is not something I want to have or need and I think if most girls are honest they don't either. Who wants to be treated like a piece of meat. I don't.....
I want people to see and know me and treat me with more respect then that. sorry but I just see that, maybe more of the shallow low self-esteem girls might but I for one will take back my life and make is stand for something more.

Good points, Decka and Shortstuff (BTW, nice to meet you :))---

When I was a kid, regular church-going kids were considered prissy namby pambys. They were definitely uncool. Not all of them were that way, but many were. Us other kids realized tho, that many were that way because of brainwashing by their parents and by and large felt sorry for them.

People tend to come to real faith later on in life, I've found.

Also, Evak, Vatican II made changes--but did they make enough? As far as I know, the only major change the RC made was having their services in native tongues instead of Latin.
Was this enough?

Tho I'm not Catholic and don't follow their doctrine, I still respect them--their long history, their tradition,the way they've maintained their dogma over the many hundreds of years. The Vatican is a repository of tremendous history--the art, the manuscripts. How I'd love to visit their library and view the artwork and statuary.

The biggest threat the Church--or any church--as ever faced is not the so-called "modern" times, or even the Reformation, but rather one thing--the invention of the printing press. Now people could/can read and learn on their own, follow their own path.

PS--would like to add that despite the scandals and bad press and all that, the RC and other churches still do a lot of good.
In my own community, the RC runs a soup kitchen and shelter--free to all. they could care less what church you go to or if you go at all. They are there to help and have helped many.
They do more good than bad.

Was this enough?
No, not at all.

In my own community, the RC runs a soup kitchen and shelter--free to all. they could care less what church you go to or if you go at all. They are there to help and have helped many.
They do more good than bad.Good point. Here in Minneapolis the Catholic Church (on talk radio, at least) is often accused of turning the city into a 'homeless magnet' for the charities it operates.

I have volunteered at soup kitchens for the homeless from time to time, I recommend it to anyone as a great thing to do.

I have volunteered at soup kitchens for the homeless from time to time, I recommend it to anyone as a great thing to do.

And you get to eat all the free soup you want.:drinktoth

Wow - you've got a jaded view of life.

You are welcome to that point of view.. but i think i'm dead on .... you didn't really argue anything i said did you.....



What does in the 'lightest terms' mean? You either are or you are not. I don't believe that there is a semi-christian 'lite' religion available.If so - tell us what is it's creed? It sounds more like you simply pander to reminants of something instilled in your childhood, a form of appeasement to old conditioning?

"in the lightest terms" means I beleive in God but i really shouldn't be used as an EXAMPLE for the religion. My personal relationship with God isn't what i wished it would be.. and the only reason it ISN'T is because i let my job, my finances, and other things get priority in my life over God... i forget about God constantly. So while being a "christian" does mean believing in God... i don't see it as "black and white" like you do...

Wow have to agree on most of what you say, If you go to church or a youth group in todays society they look at you as a freak. I don't go to church only because I have had more bad things happen to me in my life then good. If there is a god then why did these things happen to me.

Alot of people feel this way... and you are MORE than "allowed" to not bite into the religion. But let me put it this way... if God created you, and then died for your sins... don't you think he really can do whatever he wants with you? When people say things like "If there is a God why did something bad happen to me"... it makes me reply in kind "who are YOU?"... does God OWE you something? He created you, he died for your sins.... If you look in the bible MANY people had "bad" things happen to them... Let me put it this way... if the CEO of your company comes in and spills coffee on your shirt... is he REQUIRED to clean it off of you? I bet you he doesn't.. Now imagine that times 50, but the CEO isn't an asshole, he actually LOVES you... While some people can't comprehend the meaning of "tough love"... God has used it many times over the years to make people better than what they are.

Where we differ is on your statement that all girls want to trade in heaven for paris hilton's popularity. Well popularity her style is not something I want to have or need and I think if most girls are honest they don't either. Who wants to be treated like a piece of meat. I don't.....
I want people to see and know me and treat me with more respect then that. sorry but I just see that, maybe more of the shallow low self-esteem girls might but I for one will take back my life and make is stand for something more.

I respect you big time for that opinion.. but i think alot of girls would select otherwise. Maybe i'm wrong...

That doesn't suprise me one bit... but don't blame it on "sex scandals" for the drop in attendence and and preisthood. Blame it on being tattoo'd a weirdo and a dork in elementary school and high school.. because in today's teen world if you aren't about sex and drinking, you aren't anything.... While some kids can blow it off.. others want to be "cool", so they DO have sex and DO drink uncontrollably.. and pretty soon find themselves completely divided from the church.

Now, don't think that JUST drinking and sex means you can't be a christian.. because i do both and i consider myself a "christian" in the lightest term. But the acts and thinking that normally go along with sex and drinking help you elevate into someone who ISN'T doing "God's good work"... Once you are "popular" you gossip, you stab people in the back(figuratively speaking), you get dragged into drama and do things without clearly thinking, you put more value into your car or money than God, you try to look tough by saying bad things about people, you actually get into physical conflicts..... School kids can't handle all that... most ADULTS couldn't handle it, luckily most adults know better.

But to sum it up... blame the society we live in today.... because church just "isn't cool".. and that fact alone is good enough for 75% of kids nowadays to stay away from it... i mean, come on... most girls would trade in heaven for Paris Hilton's popularity anyday.
Borg,I hope your getting tips here.........

I have volunteered at soup kitchens for the homeless from time to time, I recommend it to anyone as a great thing to do.
What does it say for the richest country in history,to have 'soup kitchens',and by the way,what sort of soup was it.....

Borg,I hope your getting tips here.........
Um? Why me, in particular? I'm not a Christian; I'm an atheist...I don't think Decka's post really applies to me.

"in the lightest terms" means I beleive in God but i really shouldn't be used as an EXAMPLE for the religion. My personal relationship with God isn't what i wished it would be.. and the only reason it ISN'T is because i let my job, my finances, and other things get priority in my life over God... i forget about God constantly. So while being a "christian" does mean believing in God... i don't see it as "black and white" like you do...

You don't have to be a Christian to believe in God.

PS--would like to add that despite the scandals and bad press and all that, the RC and other churches still do a lot of good.
In my own community, the RC runs a soup kitchen and shelter--free to all. they could care less what church you go to or if you go at all. They are there to help and have helped many.
They do more good than bad.


Hi Rendova, thanks for the welcome:

I do agree the churches do get a bad rap for most parts and there is good and bad in all religions. It is not the religion so much as the people whom choose to live there lives and dictate the interpretation of their religion that can cause the problems. But when is comes to sex education and the churches saying, "No we don't want our youth taught this". Well to me that is wrong. Condoms and practising safe sex is the most responsible thing to do, IF the youth are going to have sex. Which we all know with how kids are growing up so fast today that the national average for a girl to have sex shocked me, it was 12 yrs old. OUCH god at that age I was still playing with barbies. OK no laughing.... I think kids need to go back to being kids and not worry about growing up so fast, and the churches need to go back to being a safe haven for teen if they choose to need it.:cool:

I respect you big time for that opinion.. but i think alot of girls would select otherwise. Maybe i'm wrong...

Thank you for saying that. I am young still and have a lot of living yet to do, but I try to live my life with self respect for myself and my body. I hear what you are saying about a lot of girls wanting the popularity life. I just can't see them happy long term. hehe but they sure might die trying and with that even possibly end up with some kind of STD or worse Aids. Life is too short to end it any faster.:cool:

Sorry for the double post not sure if this is ok to do?

What does it say for the richest country in history,to have 'soup kitchens'
It says that not everyone in America is well-off, just like the rest of the world. What are you getting at? America creates wealth like no other nation on Earth, but that doesn't mean there won't be a few with extenuating circumstances who are not "rich."

And the soup changes.

Um? Why me, in particular? I'm not a Christian; I'm an atheist...I don't think Decka's post really applies to me.
Good man,I take it you can do all these things without feeling guilty,go for it.......

It is good to be exposed to the facts of how you younger folks view church today. It has changed some since I was young. I believe half-a-century ago kids were expected to go to church. When I met an adult the first thing they asked was, where I went to church.
In those days many kids were forced to attend church. Probably still that way in many homes, I wonder to what extent.

A sure-fire church killer is not being able to brain wash the young into their way of thinking and particular faith at an early age.

A belief in a supreme being or force is not a monopoly of the Christian nor any other man made religion. It is up to the individual. Do not feel bad that you do not attend a particular church or no church at all for that matter. Just enjoy this playground we call life for all it is worth. Look after those you care for. Help those that you can, when you can. Harm no one intentionally. Do not be afraid to tell someone you love them, if you do. Life is to be enjoyed. Have fun and be responsible for you own actions.

Yea,when I was a kid I got dragged off to chapel at 11 every Sunday morning,Mass was said in Latin in those days,didnt understand a word of it,then they changed it to English,didnt understand a word of it..............

Speaking of bad things happening to people, maybe it's not God doing it.

"If god is omnipotent, he's not benevolent.
If god is benevolent, he's not omnipotent."

St. Augustine,
and something to think about--or this --when Jesus Christ called Lucifer "the Prince of this Earth."

This earth----

In today's world information is freely and widely available. It's only been this way for the past 10 years or so. The level of discussion and collaboration driven thru the internet has and will continue to have a profound impact.

This by default is reducing the rigid constraints religion imposes upon people's minds from a young age. People have many more sources of information & as a natural result religion will decline, but it doesn't mean a belief in God will decline.

Lets face it 99% of all people in any religion had no choice in the religion they are in - it was hammered into them from birth & then they happily and cheerfully claim it's their own free will.

A belief in a supreme being or force is not a monopoly of the Christian nor any other man made religion. It is up to the individual. Do not feel bad that you do not attend a particular church or no church at all for that matter. Just enjoy this playground we call life for all it is worth. Look after those you care for. Help those that you can, when you can. Harm no one intentionally. Do not be afraid to tell someone you love them, if you do. Life is to be enjoyed. Have fun and be responsible for you own actions.

I appreciate what you are saying and not condemning anyone for not going to church. I many not got to church or be a practising anything. I still don't look down on anyone who does believe in a god which every it may be.
My step-dad was raise Catholic and was an alter boy and made to do all the churchly things as a kid. He also ran away from home at the age of 13 to get away from it also and never went back. Due to this we were never allowed religion in the house, so to get it I would look for it outside the home. Which was fine for me..The only part of the churches I don't agree with is there need to have power over what you do and say. Like sex, All they say is don't do it. Right that teaches a lot...

My motto is simple: One planet, one people please.... if only this could be true

A belief in a supreme being or force is not a monopoly of the Christian nor any other man made religion. It is up to the individual. Do not feel bad that you do not attend a particular church or no church at all for that matter. Just enjoy this playground we call life for all it is worth. Look after those you care for. Help those that you can, when you can. Harm no one intentionally. Do not be afraid to tell someone you love them, if you do. Life is to be enjoyed. Have fun and be responsible for you own actions.

Well said, dan.
If there is a God, and I believe there is, he knows we're human.
It is only natural to doubt sometimes, have questions.
We do have brains!
It's also a mistake to judge a faith by some of its followers.

Speaking of Catholic bashing, this may take the cake.
A man has claimed he was abused--as a twenty one year old man.
Is there something wrong with this picture?

Lets face it 99% of all people in any religion had no choice in the religion they are in - it was hammered into them from birth & then they happily and cheerfully claim it's their own free will.

If thats true than so is education..... are you ready to accept that?

Here is where i differ with *some* liberals.. they think humans should be what they are, no questions asked, and NOONE has ANY right to even SUGGEST to them ANY means of improvement.

I say people SHOULD better themselves.. and you DONT do that by sitting around. Look at athletics... the only way to become a better runner is to do things a normal person wouldn't want to do... but in the end you ARE a better runner AND you are more healthy. Look at education, the better way to become smarter is to learn to read and write when you are young... most kids DONT WANT to.. but they do it and they are GLAD they did it. Its bullshit to say that as a human being you should not listen to ANYTHING anyone says and just "be your own man".. because then you are an idiot.

It's becoming progressively more difficult to sift through your postings, as the points made are more vague than ever. What're you saying that is "on topic"?

If thats true than so is education..... are you ready to accept that?

Yes, so long as the education mentally moves you forward rather than holds you back.

The part of your post that best relates to religion is your tag line "you believe it because MTV told you so". Just replace MTV with religion of your choosing.

Yes, so long as the education mentally moves you forward rather than holds you back.

The part of your post that best relates to religion is your tag line "you believe it because MTV told you so". Just replace MTV with religion of your choosing.

So you don't think there are any positive values that come from religion?

So you don't think there are any positive values that come from religion?
Is religion necessary to get these values ingrained in people's mind?

Is religion necessary to get these values ingrained in people's mind?
================================================== =

Evakian, I know you asked this question of Decka, but I would like to answer also, as well as hear your answer to this question.

Personal values seem to come from more than one place.
First, I would say that some of a persons values come from the environment that they are raised in.
Second, I would say that a persons values come from what works in society.

When mankind moved from hunter-gatherers to permanent settlements, it seems that the rules changed. Accepted and unaccepted actions became laws. A group mentality developed that extended beyond self-preservation.
What was now good for the groups preservation, was good for the individuals preservation.

I have read where some groups let those that could not serve society die out. This would be the old and physically impaired. This was good for the group in general because each had to contribute for the total to survive. This was an accepted value that would be looked upon with disdain today when we actually produce an abundance to share with those less fortunate. A value change.

Early settlements had a leader, first the strongest and best provider, then later elected leaders.

It appears, that at some point in the time line, a few smart people saw that they could use mans fear of the unknown to gain status in the community. A status of being in touch with the unseen elements that controlled the good and bad things that happened to the group and individuals. This could have been anything from sickness, rain for crops, or animal abundance for hunting.
Religious practices and values arose. Instigated by those leaders.
Today we think the practice of human sacrifice was barbaric. Yet, this was an accepted religious practice at one time in some cultures.

Personal values seem to change with the society's acceptance of certain actions. I believe this is the greatest influence. I believe personal values were present before organized religion.

Evakian, I know you asked this question of Decka, but I would like to answer also, as well as hear your answer to this question. Thanks for your thorough answer Dan, I always enjoy your postings. As for my answer to this:

To get these values, they would have to be born out of some power greater than oneself. Society, organized religion, or even your parents would be able to fill that gap as being the "greater power." From my personal experience, I've been raised these past years by a very expressed Catholic brood, so many of my values I had into my early teens sprung from deep-seated religious belief. It has been more recent that I've turned from being a conservative Christian, to (what I call) "libertarian free-thinker," which of course, involves atheism and a different perspective on world philosophy. So my views took a big leap in another direction. So I am living proof that these values exist outside having a religion, because it wasn't until after my newly ascertained "disbelief" that I got the values I now hold.

Do I think the rest of the world could have my experience? No, of course not. The majority of people involved in a religion use that to guide their life, and without it they would not be able to make good, "virtuous" decisions. These values exist outside of religion, but the world wouldn't exist very happily without religious values. It's never really been tried (that being, instilling these positive values without religion), but I'm willing to bet its a few steps away and still attainable.