Lawmaker: Marines killed Iraqis ‘in cold blood’
Navy conducting war crimes probe into November violence in Haditha

WASHINGTON - A Pentagon probe into the death of Iraqi civilians last November in the Iraqi city of Haditha will show that U.S. Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood," a U.S. lawmaker said Wednesday.

From the beginning, Iraqis in the town of Haditha said U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children.

One young Iraqi girl said the Marines killed six members of her family, including her parents. “The Americans came into the room where my father was praying,” she said, “and shot him.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
All you apologist who disregarded this when I first posted it can STFU now thanks...

All you apologist who disregarded this when I first posted it can STFU now thanks...If they really did "kill innocent civilians in cold blood" then I don't think too many people would be apologists for them. But don't go ahead and condemn them until all the facts are out.

I suggest that quarter-pounder be dispatched to Iraq on a fact finding mission and then report back to us here.

Remember this ES?

http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?t=17310&highlight=iraqi
An often used quote is certainly fitting here: " ... war IS hell ... ".

Doesn't matter who is fighting where, there's always been allegations of wrongdoing by soldiers. The legendary atrocities by the Japanese prior to and during WWII have yet to be addressed. The Japanese are almost in societal denial of that time period. The Jews will never let Western society forget the Holocast. There is more attention paid to the behaviors of soldiers in this conflict than in any other in history. The media is all over this one. Turn the page. Well if violence is soooo ho-hum I guess you just wouldn't care if some violent criminal murdered your parents/wife/children. I mean, life can just be violent right?

I'd like to suggest that you be locked up till you find a soul.

heres Trav:
I dont believe it.
and Prea:
One has to admit the fact that the article is written by someone named Pat Cockburn is pure comedy. That aside, I totally agree with you, Trav.

If they really did "kill innocent civilians in cold blood" then I don't think too many people would be apologists for them. But don't go ahead and condemn them until all the facts are out.Why not? Chance are more likely then not this happened. These people are nothing but property of the US government and the US government has refused the "guilty till proven innocent" in military tribunals.

Did you read the article? or did just the little tidbit make you feel informed enough to comment? These people we shot execution style in kneeling positions. The military repetedly lied about how they died. Yeah I think the asshole are guilty. Thats what the evidence says.

Yes, I read that article in its entirety before you even posted it here. Which means I read that the incident is still under investigation and that all the details of that investigation have not yet been released. Looking at the facts that are already out, it does appear that innocent civilians were deliberately killed. However, I'm still not going to pass judgement until I know all the facts. It may not make a difference, but when the lives of those Marines are at stake, it's worth waiting for.

Yea its amazing how it can still be under investigation and yet in 500's little mind it's already a foregone conclusion...

but geez, that name "Pat Cockburn"... LMAO

he he he

Are you guys serious? I honestly can not believe what you guys are saying. You guys blow off the situation as if it was nothing. But when a guy throws a rock at someone else ,you blow it up into something huge.

Innocent Civilians being slaughtered or Someone throwing a Rock at someone else?

Do they really compare?

Who's blowing it off? Just because I'm not calling for those Marines' heads doesn't mean I don't think it's a big deal. As I said, it appears at this point that they are guilty. I'm just saying that they be fairly judged by the court of public opinion.

Also, if you were referring to me in regards to the rock-throwing thread, I suggest you go back and read my posts on that thread. You may have me mixed up with someone else.

Official: Iraq civilian deaths unjustified

Military investigators probing the deaths last November of about two dozen Iraqi civilians have evidence that points toward unprovoked murders by Marines, a senior defense official said Friday.

The Marine Corps initially reported 15 deaths and said they were caused by a roadside bomb and an ensuing firefight with insurgents. A separate investigation is aimed at determining if Marines lied to cover up the events, which included the deaths of women and children.

read more.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060527/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/marines_iraq_investigations

Massey foresaw a "black scenario" facing the US forces in Iraq.

By Hadi Yahmid, IOL Correspondent

PARIS, October 12, 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – A former US Marine has urged the Iraqi people and Muslims around the globe to forgive the US "war crimes" in Iraq, and said that the Bush administration has sunk deeper into the Iraqi quagmire and will lose the war at the end of the day.

"I ask the Iraqis and Muslims to forgive US practices in Iraq, especially during the holy Muslim month of Ramadan," Jimmy Massey told IslamOnline.net in an exclusive interview on Wednesday, October 12.

Massey, who is currently on a visit to Paris to mark the publishing of his first book " Kill! Kill! Kill!", said there is widespread discontent in the United States at the policies of the Bush

Massey's book was published by a French publishing house after it had been apparently rejected by American publishers.

Massey, who left Iraq in May 2003, wrote the book after being discharged from the Marines with a diagnosed case of post-trauma stress syndrome.

"I spent long hours speechless and looking at the wall, seeing nothing but only images of the killed Iraqis," he said.

On his book, he said "It's been a healing experience. It's allowed me to close a lot of chapters and answer a lot of questions."

In December of last year, Massey along with his paratrooper Jeremy Hinzman applied for political asylum in Canada in protest at the "atrocities" committed by the US army in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In graphic testimonies to a Canadian tribunal, the former Marine Sergeant and Hinzman have argued that they could not tolerate killing innocent civilians in Iraq.

"War Crimes"

The US forces in Iraq are committing "war crimes" against the innocent Iraqi people, said the ex-Marine.

He said he himself had Iraqi blood on his hands, when he killed innocent Iraqis at the start of the US invasion of the Arab country.

He regretted that the victims were not soldiers, but unarmed and posed no threat to the US forces.

Citing a horrific incident against Iraqi civilians at the time, Massey said that he gunned down a number of Iraqi demonstrators during a protest in Baghdad's neighborhood of Al-Rashid in April of 2003, the month when US tanks rolled into Baghdad streets in a heartbreaking scene for the Arabs and Muslims.

The demonstrators were civilian people, however, a US commander ordered his unit soldiers to open fire at the crowd, killing a number of protesters in cold blood.

He said some of the victims were shot directly in the head, citing a CIA memo that brainwashed servicemen in Iraq into thinking that al Iraqis were potential terrorists.

In his book, Massey writes that at one point he told an officer that the US military campaign "resembles a genocide" and that "our only objective in Iraq is petrol and profits."

British medical weekly, Lancet, said last year that over 100,000 Iraqi civilians -- half of whom women and children -- have lost their lives since the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

Late last year, the International Committee for Red Cross (ICRC), the guardian of the Geneva Conventions governing conduct in warfare, lambasted "utter contempt" for humanity in US-occupied Iraq.

The international group also described the US abuses against detainees as "war crimes."

Bush Should Leave

Massey foresaw a "black scenario" facing the US forces in Iraq.

He admired the resolve displayed by the Iraqi resistance fighters, who fight US soldiers.

He said the unabated Iraqi resistance doomed the US mission in Iraq to failure.

Massey reserved an "open message" to US President George W. Bush.

"I call on you (Bush) to leave as you are bring disgrace to the American people and sadness to mothers who lose their sons in Iraq."

Late September, tens of thousands of American demonstrators took to the streets in several major cities to protest the US-led invasion of Iraq and demand the withdrawal of American troops of whom at least 2,000 soldiers were killed since March 2003.

A congressionally mandated panel concluded in September that Bush is seen in the Arab world as a greater threat than Al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.

A 2004 pentagon report said the US administration was alienating Muslims worldwide and losing the "the war of ideas" because of adopting faulty policies and what is perceived as "self-serving hypocrisy".

Bush has recently appointed Karen Hughes as Undersecretary of State for Diplomacy to shine up America’s image in the Arab world, which is described by pundits as mission impossible.
http://islamonline.net/English/News/2005-10/12/article09.shtml
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'I didn't join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy'
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 12/03/2006)

As a trooper in the Special Air Service's counter-terrorist team - the black-clad force that came to the world's attention during the Iranian Embassy siege in 1980 - Ben Griffin was at the pinnacle of his military career.

He had already served in Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan as a member of the Parachute Regiment, and his sharp mind, natural fitness and ability to cope with the stress of military operations had singled him out as ideal special forces material.

Born in London but brought up in Wales, Mr Griffin left school at 18 with two A-levels and six GCSEs and, although he could have become an officer, he preferred life in the ranks.

Within a year of joining the elite force in early 2004 and serving as a trooper in the SAS's G-Squadron, he learnt that his unit was being posted to Baghdad, where it would be working alongside its American equivalent, Delta Force, targeting al-Qaeda cells and insurgent units.

Unknown to any of his SAS colleagues at their Hereford-based unit, however, Mr Griffin, then 25, had been harbouring doubts over the "legality" of the war. Despite recognising that Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator and posed a threat, albeit a small one, to the West, he did not believe that the case for war had been made. The events he witnessed during his three-month tour in Baghdad, and especially the conduct of the American troops, would force him into making the most difficult decision of his life.

During a week's leave in March 2005 he told his commanding officer in a formal interview that he had no intention of returning to Iraq because he believed that the war was morally wrong. Moreover, he said he believed that Tony Blair and the Government had lied to the country and had deceived every British serviceman and woman serving in Iraq.

Mr Griffin expected to be placed under arrest, labelled a coward, court-martialed and imprisoned for daring to air such views.

Instead, however, he was allowed to leave the Army with his exemplary military record intact and with a glowing testimonial from his commanding officer, who described him as a "balanced and honest soldier who possesses the strength and character to genuinely have the courage of his convictions".

In his first interview since being discharged from the SAS in June last year, Mr Griffin explained why he has decided to speak out about the war.

He said: "I saw a lot of things in Baghdad that were illegal or just wrong. I knew, so others must have known, that this was not the way to conduct operations if you wanted to win the hearts and minds of the local population. And if you don't win the hearts and minds of the people, you can't win the war.

"If we were on a joint counter-terrorist operation, for example, we would radio back to our headquarters that we were not going to detain certain people because, as far as we were concerned, they were not a threat because they were old men or obviously farmers, but the Americans would say 'no, bring them back'.

"The Americans had this catch-all approach to lifting suspects. The tactics were draconian and completely ineffective. The Americans were doing things like chucking farmers into Abu Ghraib [the notorious prison in Baghdad where US troops abused and tortured Iraqi detainees] or handing them over to the Iraqi authorities, knowing full well they were going to be tortured.

"The Americans had a well-deserved reputation for being trigger happy. In the three months that I was in Iraq, the soldiers I served with never shot anybody. When you asked the Americans why they killed people, they would say 'we were up against the tough foreign fighters'. I didn't see any foreign fighters in the time I was over there.

"I can remember coming in off one operation which took place outside Baghdad, where we had detained some civilians who were clearly not insurgents, they were innocent people. I couldn't understand why we had done this, so I said to my troop commander 'would we have behaved in the same way in the Balkans or Northern Ireland?' He shrugged his shoulders and said 'this is Iraq', and I thought 'and that makes it all right?'

"As far as I was concerned that meant that because these people were a different colour or a different religion, they didn't count as much. You can not invade a country pretending to promote democracy and behave like that."

On another operation, Mr Griffin recalls his and other soldiers' frustration at being ordered to detain a group of men living on a farm.

He said: "After you have been on a few operations, experience tells you when you are dealing with insurgents or just civilians and we knew the people we had detained were not a threat.

"One of them was a disabled man who had a leg missing but the Americans still ordered us to load them on the helicopters and bring them back to their base. A few hours later we were told to return half of them and fly back to the farm in daylight. It was a ridiculous order and we ran the risk of being shot down or ambushed, but we still had to do it. The Americans were risking our lives because they refused to listen to our advice the night before. It was typical of their behaviour."

Mr Griffin said he believed that the Americans soldiers viewed the Iraqis in the same way as the Nazis viewed Russians, Jews and eastern Europeans in the Second World War, when they labelled them "untermenschen".

"As far as the Americans were concerned, the Iraqi people were sub-human, untermenschen. You could almost split the Americans into two groups: ones who were complete crusaders, intent on killing Iraqis, and the others who were in Iraq because the Army was going to pay their college fees. They had no understanding or interest in the Arab culture. The Americans would talk to the Iraqis as if they were stupid and these weren't isolated cases, this was from the top down. There might be one or two enlightened officers who understood the situation a bit better but on the whole that was their general attitude. Their attitude fuelled the insurgency. I think the Iraqis detested them."

Although Mr Griffin has the utmost respect for his former colleagues and remains fiercely loyal to the regiment, he believes that the reputation of the Army has been damaged by its association with the American forces.

"I had reservations about going out to Iraq before I went, but as a soldier you just get on with what you are ordered to do. But I found that when I was out in Iraq that I couldn't keep my views separate from my work without compromising my role as a soldier.

"It was at that stage that I knew I couldn't carry on. I was very angry, and still am, at the way the politicians in this country and America have lied to the British public about the war. But most importantly, I didn't join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy."

Mr Griffin said that although he was angered by many of the events he witnessed in Iraq, he waited until he returned to Britain on leave before making his views clear to his commanders.

"I didn't want to say anything when I was in Baghdad because I still have great respect and loyalty for the soldiers I served with. I didn't want to cause any unnecessary pressure or discomfort by voicing my opinions.

"When I returned to the UK for a week's leave I asked for an interview with my commanding officer and told him that what I thought was going on in Iraq was wrong, not just legally but operationally as well.

"Initially, he suspected that I had been offered a job by a private military company in Iraq but when it became clear that was not the case he was very understanding. It was a big decision for me. I put a lot of effort getting into the SAS, so this wasn't a decision I made on a whim.

"He understood my point of view and his attitude was brilliant, in fact everyone was brilliant about it. I didn't know what was going to happen. I thought I might be charged or end up in Colchester [the military prison] for refusing to soldier."

Mr Griffin, who lives in London, denies being a peace activist or a member of any political party, or having an agenda designed to bring down the Government.

But he said: "I do believe passionately in democracy and I will speak out about things which I think are morally wrong. I think the war in Iraq is a war of aggression and is morally wrong and, more importantly, we are making the situation in the Middle East more unstable. It's not just wrong, it's a major military disaster. There was no plan for what was to happen after Saddam went, no end-game."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas112.xml

It was just on the news. US soldiers in Iraq killed 23 civilians (women and children too). I was half-listening, but it appears that the soldiers killed them in retaliation for the death of one of the soldiers.

I will wait for the results of the two investigations currently underway. The first is into the conduct of the Marines. The second is into what happened in the aftermath of the incident, and how the reporting of the incident up the chain of command was handled. I will watch this carefully, and I expect that justice will be served.
It is good policy to wait until the results of any investigation are in to reach a judgement. This applies in all situations, from political scandals, to criminal cases. It is also true that sometimes, unless pressure is brought, no investigation will occur. It is easier and less embarrassing to sweep the matter under the rug. We need the critics to point out suspicions, in order to know what ought to be investigated, and sometimes they will be wrong, but they still have a place in improving our society.

I'm with you Imagineer.

But I can't help but think...if GWB & Co. hadn't put our guys/girls there in the first place (and for what??) we wouldn't be in this situation. I know, I know, I can't keep blaming GWB & Co. for all of this. But it's too hard not to place the blame where the entire problem originated.

How Massacres Become the Norm
By Dahr Jamail

US soldiers killing innocent civilians in Iraq is not news. Just as it was not news that US soldiers slaughtered countless innocent civilians in Vietnam. However, when some rare reportage of this non news from Iraq does seep through the cracks of the corporate media, albeit briefly, the American public seems shocked. Private and public statements of denial and dismissal immediately start to fill the air. We hear, "American soldiers would never do such a thing," or "Who would make such a ridiculous claim?"

It amazes me that so many people in the US today somehow seriously believe that American soldiers would never kill civilians. Despite the fact that they are in a no-win guerrilla war in Iraq which, like any other guerrilla war, always generates more civilian casualties than combatant casualties on either side.

Robert J. Lifton is a prominent American psychiatrist who lobbied for the inclusion of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders after his work with US veterans from Vietnam. His studies on the behavior of those who have committed war crimes led him to believe it does not require an unusual level of mental illness or of personal evil to carry out such crimes. Rather, these crimes are nearly guaranteed to occur in what Lifton refers to as "atrocity-producing situations."

Several of his books, like The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide, examine how abnormal conditions work on normal minds, enabling them to commit the most horrendous crimes imaginable.

Iraq today is most certainly an "atrocity-producing situation," as it has been from the very beginning of the occupation.

The latest reported war crime, a US military raid on the al-Mustafa Shia mosque in Baghdad on March 26th, which killed at least 16 people, is only one instance of the phenomena that Lifton has spoken of.

An AP video of the scene shows male bodies tangled together in a bloody mass on the floor of the Imams' living quarters - all of them with shotgun wounds and other bullet holes. The tape also shows shell casings of the caliber used by the US military scattered about on the floor. An official from the al-Sadr political bloc reported that American forces had surrounded the hospital where the wounded were taken for treatment after the massacre.

The slaughter was followed by an instant and predictable disinformation blitz by the US military. The second ranking US commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, told reporters "someone went in and made the scene look different from what it was."

On March 15th, 11 Iraqis, mostly women and children, were massacred by US troops in Balad. Witnesses told reporters that US helicopters landed near a home, which was then stormed by US troops. Everyone visible was rounded up and taken inside the house where they were killed. The victims' ages ranged from six months to 75 years.

The US military acknowledged the raid, but claimed to have captured a resistance fighter and insisted that only four people had been killed. Their claim would have held good but for the discrepancies that the available evidence presents. For one, the photographs that the AP reporter took of the scene reveal a collapsed roof, three destroyed cars and two dead cows. The other indictment comes from the detailed report of the incident prepared by Iraq Police. It matches witness accounts and accuses the American troops of murdering Iraqi civilians.

"The American forces gathered the family members in one room and executed 11 persons, including five children, four women and two men. Then they bombed the house, burned three vehicles and killed the animals." The report includes the observation of local medics that all of the bodies had bullet wounds in the head.

Ahmed Khalaf, the nephew of one of the victims said, "The killed family was not part of the resistance, they were women and children. The Americans have promised us a better life, but we get only death." AP photos of the aftermath showed the bodies of five children, two men and four others covered in blankets being driven to a nearby hospital.

more...
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0604/S00051.htm

All you apologist who disregarded this when I first posted it can STFU now thanks...

Feel better now?

The thing to keep in mind that killing innocent civilians is something that is NOT U.S. policy or is it something that our armed forces are engaged in.

What people do have to keep in mind is that the "insurgents" have no qualms about murdering men, women and children. If it took the murder of a thousand children to get the Iraqi populace to turn against U.S. forces, they'd do it tomorrow. If it took the murder of a thousand children for the U.S. to prevail in Iraq, it'd never happen, dammit.

It's hard to say what it is like to be 22 years old, under fire every day with the thread of road side bombs and to see your buddy blown to bits in front of you.

I imagine these kids just lost control. That doesn't make it right - it is certainly wrong & if the evidence plays out they will be punished.

No doubt the muslim world will once again leap on their double standard with this (as will people here in the US). People are killed every day in Iraq, the difference is - if it is done like this by US soldiers then it is something that they are held accountable for.

People are killed every day in Iraq, the difference is - if it is done like this by US soldiers then it is something that they are held accountable for.

If the evidence shows that the Marines were guilty of a crime, I hope their punishment is the stiffest they can receive. The guys that are over there serving honorably deserve nothing less.

If the evidence shows that the Marines were guilty of a crime, I hope their punishment is the stiffest they can receive. The guys that are over there serving honorably deserve nothing less.

I agree - they have to be charged with 1st degree murder and punished accordingly.

There were reports that some of the women and children were begging for their lives before they were shot.

The problem is a lot of the kids in the military spend their youth playing video games and being drop outs and then they join the army. The army obviously does them a lot of good, but some, under pressure will snap. Nobody can imagine what it is like to be in their situation unless you have been in it.

So, I don't look at them as cold blooded murderors, I look at them as kids who were placed in a very bad situation and snapped.

They of course have to be punished because there is no taking back what they did and every action has a consequence, but we shouldn't demonise them, we should simply feel sorry for them and their victims.

I am sure in war the line between legitimate killing and non legitimate killing becomes blurred. It's easy to judge from an armchair in the US, but these kids are human and they are doing things that most people couldn't even imagine & 99.9% of them do it with complete honor & integrity.

I have a friend who just came back from Iraq. Well I think the stories we hear in the news may sometimes be a little jaded. Granted there are a lot on both sides getting kill some young and old.
My friend was a platoon lead on patrol and well he and his group were ambushed by of all things a 10-13 yr old boy. He threw a grenade at them. In this situation my friend he was hurt and his best friend in the platoon had to shot this boy. Kill or be killed I guess. Does it make it right maybe not but I am glad my friend make it home alive, even with being hurt. Then when he got back the rest of his platoon came how and within weeks was sent back to now Afghanistan. My heart and prayers go out to all of them for a safe return.

This may very well be a defining moment in the Iraq war.It wont really matter from an Iraqi point,if these troops are guilty or not,theyll drift into history the same as the 'prison guards',the point is,that the US military will never recover any credability after this issue,it will set their war effort back at least a year,and swell the ranks of the 'insurgents' even further,Islamics will have a field day with it.................

This may very well be a defining moment in the Iraq war.It wont really matter from an Iraqi point,if these troops are guilty or not,theyll drift into history the same as the 'prison guards',the point is,that the US military will never recover any credability after this issue,it will set their war effort back at least a year,and swell the ranks of the 'insurgents' even further,Islamics will have a field day with it.................


I totally agree.
I wish there wasn't a need for war but there seems to be.


PS your log on name so makes me laugh.
will have to tell you some time.
:thumbs:

There is a need for war:Imperialism,greed,machoism,big business,oil,threatening behaviour,domestic politics.Oh,mustnt forget the offical line,'Bringing Democracy and Freedom' to the Iraqi people..............

This may very well be a defining moment in the Iraq war.It wont really matter from an Iraqi point,if these troops are guilty or not,theyll drift into history the same as the 'prison guards',the point is,that the US military will never recover any credability after this issue,it will set their war effort back at least a year,and swell the ranks of the 'insurgents' even further,Islamics will have a field day with it.................

given some of the things that have happened i doubt that this has much impact on anything over there. If beheading people, blowing up 30 some odd kids, blowing up market places and temples...... hasn't moved them then this won't either.

The difference is:that governments forces are bound to react within professional barometers:ie,troops are supposed to act in a certain manner,this does give your opponent a certain advantage,but as the US troops are supposed to be winning the 'hearst and minds' of a sceptical Iraqi population,well,this storey,wheather its true or not,is a giant leap backwards for the occupying forces,and plays into the hands of its enemys............

I find it interesting that so many bitch, complain & otherwise armchair quarterback our fine young military troops when they do something wrong, yet seemingly don't blink an eye when almost daily there are reports of homicidal maniac muslim M-F'er's blowing themselves & countless others up at bus stops or shopping centers.

See above for details............

I find it interesting that so many bitch, complain & otherwise armchair quarterback our fine young military troops when they do something wrong, yet seemingly don't blink an eye when almost daily there are reports of homicidal maniac muslim M-F'er's blowing themselves & countless others up at bus stops or shopping centers.
When you think about it, our troops are given extensive training, equipment, orders, while the Iraqi insurgents are a rabble of bloodthirsty religious zealots. It isn't that the Iraqis aren't in the wrong too, it's just that our troops are expected to be better than that. Of course it saddens me when I hear of a sucide bomber claiming children's lives on the street, but it frustrates me if I have to hear my soldiers have made poor decisions that resulted in the deaths of innocents.

I find it interesting that so many bitch, complain & otherwise armchair quarterback our fine young military troops when they do something wrong, yet seemingly don't blink an eye when almost daily there are reports of homicidal maniac muslim M-F'er's blowing themselves & countless others up at bus stops or shopping centers.

The answer lies in your post es.

You make reference to "our fine young military troops", and "homicidal maniac muslim M-F'er's". It's because we dont expect the "fine" ones to act like the "maniac" ones.

The answer lies in your post es.

You make reference to "our fine young military troops", and "homicidal maniac muslim M-F'er's". It's because we dont expect the "fine" ones to act like the "maniac" ones.
Correct,and neither do the ordinary Iraqis who just wanna get on and live in peace,Hearts and Minds are more important to win,than beating the insurgents...............

I find it interesting that so many bitch, complain & otherwise armchair quarterback our fine young military troops when they do something wrong, yet seemingly don't blink an eye when almost daily there are reports of homicidal maniac muslim M-F'er's blowing themselves & countless others up at bus stops or shopping centers.

I agree with you.

As for the Iraqi people, I think that there is an assumption that they are stupid. They will be annoyed & shocked by this event, but I am sure the average man on the street will not be influenced by it for the long term, especially when they are I am sure jaded to the whole concept of mindless violence.

As for the Iraqi people, I think that there is an assumption that they are stupid. They will be annoyed & shocked by this event, but I am sure the average man on the street will not be influenced by it for the long term, especially when they are I am sure jaded to the whole concept of mindless violence.oy vey...how is it you dispell one bad assumption and slip into another. You think the Iraqis won't really care about this? Or that it won't urge others who hadn't decided to shoot at the US yet? Of course it will as does every single atrocity and murder the US commits over there does. Thats why the Iraqi fighters continue because they get reinforcements for every murder our assholes commit over there.

I'm sure the common man cares nothing about US troops killing Iraqi fighters but you are sorely mistaken if you think they can get away with murdering whole families.

U.S. troops kill pregnant woman in Iraq
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_women_killed

Jassim's brother, who was wounded by broken glass, said he did not see any warnings as he sped his sister to the hospital. Her husband was waiting for her there.

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped," he said. "God take revenge on the Americans and those who brought them here. They have no regard for our lives."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5039714.stm

Yet another massacre probe

With just a bit of understanding, one can put together how a military unit might fail to maintain their professionalism and act out. The constant strain of being in a combat situation, not knowing which 'what-if' is going to take place, eventually something is going to go wrong. It's not premeditated, it's not planned. These are fallible individuals, despite their traning.
There's a huge difference between an isolated breakdown of military discipline & the determined actions of a homicidal bomber.

With just a bit of understanding, one can put together how a military unit might fail to maintain their professionalism and act out. The constant strain of being in a combat situation, not knowing which 'what-if' is going to take place, eventually something is going to go wrong. It's not premeditated, it's not planned. These are fallible individuals, despite their traning.

There are a lot of reasons "why" this might have happened.


There's a huge difference between an isolated breakdown of military discipline & the determined actions of a homicidal bomber.

I would agree that there is a big difference in what motivates actions like these, but the end result isn't all that different.

Your right there is,unfortunatly a professional army is expected to act professionally at all times,and as there is a suggestion that the officers in charge of these troops covered up,or tried to cover up their actions,indicates that executions was the order of the day,all good news for the insurgents,and it will be interesting to see if the troops are charged,will they be handed over to the 'Democratic Government of Iraq'.

Don't hold your breath.

Yea I know,and rightly so,theyd have no chance of a fair trial,but that also will play into insurgents hands,their claim will be,America has no confidence in the Government it has installed,or,why didnt the Iraqi police arrest these men in Iraq,or both....................

The U.S. has not generally handed over its' citizens to foreign governments. There are occasions, when troops are stationed "in garrison" in a foreign country (Okinawa comes to mind) & crimes are comitted on that soil when servicemen may be convicted & serve time within their prison system, but that's more the exception than the rule.

Soldiers Cleared in Ishaqi Incident, Haditha Investigation Continues

Despite the announcement late Friday that a military investigation had cleared soldiers in a March incident in the village of Ishaqi, the military is still conducting two investigations into the Haditha case, one to see if U.S. troops committed murder and a second to see if their actions were covered up.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june06/haditha_06-02.html
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WTF no misconduct?!? Go look at the pictures and the report...

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Graphic photographs show bodies of civilians killed in Ishaqi, Iraq
RAW STORY
Published: Friday June 2, 2006

Photographs taken by Agence France Presse but not distributed by major US media outlets show the bodies of Iraqi civilians killed in March in a home in Ishaqi, Iraq. Those photographs -- may of which are graphic and show the decaying bodies of children, some of them babies -- are displayed below. Please do not scroll down if you do not wish to see these photos.

The photographs were discovered and highlighted by by Christopher Floyd of ChrisFloyd.com earlier this year.

According to Reuters report on the incident, the 11 bodies of men, women and children, including a 75-year old grandmother and a child under the age one one, were found bound in their blown-up home. All were shot in the head; the house was riddled with bullets. At the time, "The U.S. military said two women and a child died during the bid to seize an al Qaeda militant from a house."
...
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Graphic_photographs_show_bodies_of_civilians_0602. html
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mmm...war crimes...

I suggest that quarter-pounder be dispatched to Iraq on a fact finding mission and then report back to us here.
Would you believe him then

Nope. qp is lacking in objectivity, IMO. Virtually everything posted by qp is anti-American in nature, leading me to treat each post as completely suspect & lacking truth.

I totally agree.
I wish there wasn't a need for war but there seems to be.


PS your log on name so makes me laugh.
will have to tell you some time.
:thumbs:
Oh go on.Your killing me..............

This (and surely several other incidents) will once and for all knock down that stupid thinking that wars are between the "GOOD GUYS" and the "BAD GUYS". Wars happen because of the GREEDY SOBs. It is so easy to say, I'll wait for the investigation, but what about full or partial cover up's?. And who is going to investigate what happened to the sheep, ... the other WOLF?

Nope. qp is lacking in objectivity, IMO. Virtually everything posted by qp is anti-American in nature, leading me to treat each post as completely suspect & lacking truth. since being anti-torture now labels you as anti-american I guess I can't argue with this....

qp you continually say a whole lot of nothing. Try a different approach.

¡¡¡...Come on say something that pleases the ears of the extreme right wing...!!!

It's not fair that just half of us agree when you expose the wolf with sheep skin ...

Oh go on.Your killing me..............

Ok, this has me curious, HEHEHE
How am I killing you?