Ever since Jimmy Carter said "we must find an alternative energy source" other than oil... it has been nothing but the appropriately-named "30 years of bullshit"

Noone has the balls, noone wants to pass the legislation.

We have a new energy source ready AND WAITING, but yet nothing gets done. Why are all of our politicians these days puppets and not patriots?

So WHAT is the new energy source? It's Ethanol. Ethanol comes from corn, and its not even the ONLY source. Menthol also works, as well as MINOR amounts of gasoline.

Let me put all of this in perspective...

1. Currently.. we are fighting terrorism WHILE FUNDING the very people we fight. We spend 140 BILLION DOLLARS on oil a year, and most of that goes to Saudi Arabia, which then in turn thumbs their nose at us. They build "Madras".. which are churches and sanctuarys which house the extreme islamic religions. These religions are the ones who beleive you get to heaven by killing a christian, jew, virgin, etc... So while we FIGHT these people, we FUND THEM.. how fucked up is that?

2. The Solution? Flex-fuel cars. Flex Fuel cars are currently BEING BUILT in Detroit.. although very FEW are being built because of the lack of DEMAND. Flex Fuel cars run off mostly ethanol... and are even capable of RUNNING OFF GASOLINE. That would be PERFECT for easing our economy onto ethanol. Even IF there weren't any ethanol pumps available... you could still fill up with gasoline. Gas prices would go down to compete with Ethanol, which currently runs at about 90 cents a gallon.

3. Why don't we take the next logical step? Politicians are picking their butts. The ONLY WAY Ethanol is going to be available at the pumps is by legislation. Politicians REFUSE to pass the bill.. and so does GM, who on their commercials are promoting the new "fuel effecient cars" and claim to be "for" new energy, but in congress they are AGAINST the bill to have ethanol mass produced and at pumps. Hypocracy at its best. There is NO REASON for politicians to be against this unless they are either profitting from oil or part of a higher "illuminati-type" power.

4. What IF Ethanol became available??? Our economy would BOOM. Corn production would be upped by a massive degree... we would be helping out the midwest farmers and creating millions of jobs. Once Detroit started mass producing flex fuel cars.. japan, germany, and others would all follow. Ethanol would become an export we could sell. We could also import ethanol from needy countries, giving them money and NOT the islamic extremists. Its a Win-win situation, but yet its not happening.

5. The current "excuse"? George Bush claims to be increasing "ethanol study" by 20% over the next 10 years... which is basically bullshit. We should have a three year program and have our economy based off ethanol by 2009. The current bill going through congress is a 10 year plan, and THAT is being heavily rejected.

6. Proof that it can work? Mexico got rid of its foreign oil dependency and now relies mostly on flex-fuel cars. If WE started a heavy market for ethanol.. we could send millions of dollars down to mexico for ethanol.. and maybe that would begin a decrease in illegal immigration because mexico's economy would start to rise. The problem Mexcio is facing? It can't do this alone... it needs a mass-production industrial nation like the United States to turn over the new leaf.

So i say our current politicans are nothing but fucks. They aren't looking out for us, if they were they would change our foreign oil dependency. They would stop funding the extremists.

I agree Ethanol would help. It would take a trememdous amount of acerage to produce the needed crops to convert.
It would also need alternative methods to produce the heat needed to operate the distilleries.

The oil production in Mexico has not filtered down to the people.
I do not think the Ethanol production would either under the present governmental system.

Menthol? Who knew?

4. What IF Ethanol became available??? Our economy would BOOM. Corn production would be upped by a massive degree... we would be helping out the midwest farmers and creating millions of jobs. Once Detroit started mass producing flex fuel cars.. japan, germany, and others would all follow. Ethanol would become an export we could sell. We could also import ethanol from needy countries, giving them money and NOT the islamic extremists. Its a Win-win situation, but yet its not happening.

5. The current "excuse"? George Bush claims to be increasing "ethanol study" by 20% over the next 10 years... which is basically bullshit. We should have a three year program and have our economy based off ethanol by 2009. The current bill going through congress is a 10 year plan, and THAT is being heavily rejected.

6. Proof that it can work? Mexico got rid of its foreign oil dependency and now relies mostly on flex-fuel cars. If WE started a heavy market for ethanol.. we could send millions of dollars down to mexico for ethanol.. and maybe that would begin a decrease in illegal immigration because mexico's economy would start to rise. The problem Mexcio is facing? It can't do this alone... it needs a mass-production industrial nation like the United States to turn over the new leaf.

So i say our current politicans are nothing but fucks. They aren't looking out for us, if they were they would change our foreign oil dependency.

Wow....for once i am in 100% agreement with you Decka.

Bravo!!....good post.

*Braces for the apocalypse...*

::checks temperature on the Ninth Layer:: Yep! Frozen solid!

Yeah too bad 33% of all arable land in the US has been destroyed by the so-called "green revolution. Nothing like dumping tons of poison and oil on the land you grow food in. Ethonal will not work on a large scale even though we have corn popping out our ears thanks to agri-business subsidies (didn't you ever wonder why corn syrup is in almost everything you buy?)

Corn Ethanol does not make sense. Why go through all the work of growing corn if you are just going to turn it into another fuel so we can burn that? We do not need to significantly increase the demand for agricultural lands and water to produce non-food products. Plants are very inefficient at converting light to useful energy. We can use solar cells that can produce the same amount of energy using a lot less land, land that isn't arable.

Brazil is one country that has been utilizing ethanol as a fuel additive/resource for many years now. They don't buy oil from anyone.

Ethanol, and sulfur-free diesel are fuels we can use while weaning ourselves off of the imported oil addiction. Ever improving diesel technology is rivaling and surpassing the much touted hybrid vehicles in mileage. Proven diesel technology has given us engines, reliable over the long term, that put the usual gasoline engine to shame. Further, these new engines are meeting the very stringent emissions restrictions of California, currently the most strict on the planet.

Sorry to poke holes in your idea, but ethanol isn't the amazing alternative energy source you think it is.


Gas costs about 2.50 a gallon right now, the rest is taxation (http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/margins/index.html) which would be put on ethanol also; so lets use the non-taxed prices to compare the two.

"To plant, grow, and harvest the corn takes about 140 gallons of fossil fuel and costs about $347 per acre. According to Pimentel's analysis, even before the corn is converted to ethanol, the feedstock alone costs $0.69 per gallon of ethanol." -Link (http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.17809/article_detail.asp)

Converting corn to ethanol requires about 99,119 BTUs for EVERY gallon, and only has 77,000 BTUs of available energy. This means that 29 percent more energy is required to produce a gallon of ethanol than is stored in that gallon. They often use gas to create ethanol.

Additionally, it take 1.5 gallons of ethanol to drive a car as far as 1 gallon of gas.

So, a gallon of ethanol would cost about 3.30, without taxes. The equivalent of a gallon of gas (1.5 gallons of ethanol) would then cost 4.95 - compared to 2.50 a gallon for gas. Thats nearly double for ethanol.

Ethanol is a lost cause for a replacement to gas, though I do agree that it is good to look into alternate fuels.

Dosnt the US buy oil rather than maximise the usage of its own,so it has a 3 week reserve,in case of emergencys,thats a lot of oil...

so long as oil is cheap we'll continue to buy it and not have any interest in expensive alternatives.

The source of energy that holds the most promise is free. Solar power. This technology has improved dramatically. I've seriously considered putting some solar panels on my porch roof which is 600 sqft. It would cost about $25,000 to cover it with panels that would basically power the whole house most of the time and sell electricity back to the grid some of the time.

If every house in the US had solar panels the saving would be incredible. The government could provide grants to make this technology cheaper for the consumer. The increased demand would drive the price down significantly and spur even further development in solar technology.

No matter what alternative fuel is available - its hard to beat free.

Of course the real solution is portable cold fusion reactors...then we'd never want for energy again.

No matter what alternative fuel is available - its hard to beat free.
Well, not free... Costs a lot for just a little (in comparison). You said 25,000 to cover your electric costs. I'll make a wild guess for my calculations and say that you pay 500 bucks a year on electricity. A solarpanel lasts for about 25 years (a couple reports said 30 years) and becomes less effective by about 2% a year.

You'd save
Year 1 - 500
Year 2 - 490
Year 3 - 480.2
etc...

This all comes out to a savings of 9,715.11 after 25 years. Minus the initial costs of 25,000, which means a loss of 15,284.89 - not to mention the money lost on what you could have otherwize invested it in.

Just for the hell of it, I figured out what you could have ended up with if u earned 7% a year on your 25,000 (an ok investment). You would have earned 106,597.50 after the 25 years, taking into account the electric payments each month.

All in all, solar panels are a baad idea right now, economically speaking of course.

You guys are lucky,if id a solar panel in Ireland,it would work about 50 days a year.......

Well, not free... Costs a lot for just a little (in comparison). You said 25,000 to cover your electric costs. I'll make a wild guess for my calculations and say that you pay 500 bucks a year on electricity. A solarpanel lasts for about 25 years (a couple reports said 30 years) and becomes less effective by about 2% a year.

You'd save
Year 1 - 500
Year 2 - 490
Year 3 - 480.2
etc...

This all comes out to a savings of 9,715.11 after 25 years. Minus the initial costs of 25,000, which means a loss of 15,284.89 - not to mention the money lost on what you could have otherwize invested it in.

Just for the hell of it, I figured out what you could have ended up with if u earned 7% a year on your 25,000 (an ok investment). You would have earned 106,597.50 after the 25 years, taking into account the electric payments each month.

All in all, solar panels are a baad idea right now, economically speaking of course.Does anyone out there really only pay 500 a year? If so, we here in Virginia are getting ripped off. An average bil for my house is 70 bucks a month. In the summertime you can double that.

The great thing about solar panels is that sunlight can be concentrated, and thus reduce the amount of photovoltaic cells needed to produce the same amount of electricity, making them vastly cheaper. You are, in effect, adding panels, but those panels are not expensive silicon stuff, but inexpensive mirrors. One can then use the highest quality photovoltaic cell one can find, and it'll produce an awful amount of electricity, with each advance in technology allowing for a really cheap changeover.

Does anyone out there really only pay 500 a year? If so, we here in Virginia are getting ripped off. An average bil for my house is 70 bucks a month. In the summertime you can double that.

we pay between $250 - $450 a month on electricity depending on the month.

we pay between $250 - $450 a month on electricity depending on the month.
Wow...sorry for that. Those solar panels sound like the ticket for you, IMO.

henry ford ran his cars on hemp oil and even made a car made of strong hemp

I dont think most people work their budget like that,we all just go pay for it and bitch about the price,energy companies know this..Its the same with petrol 'gas'.

Does anyone out there really only pay 500 a year? If so, we here in Virginia are getting ripped off. An average bil for my house is 70 bucks a month. In the summertime you can double that.

Well, I'm in an apartment with 2 others. So I pay about 35 bucks a month. :)

Taking into account a 7% possible investment, along with the 2% deterioration and a 25 yr lifespan, you would have to spend 2,067.00 a year for the solar panels to be worth it. That's is assuming that the panels would make enough electricity to cover 2k worth of bought electricity in a year.

The great thing about solar panels is that sunlight can be concentrated, and thus reduce the amount of photovoltaic cells needed to produce the same amount of electricity, making them vastly cheaper. You are, in effect, adding panels, but those panels are not expensive silicon stuff, but inexpensive mirrors. One can then use the highest quality photovoltaic cell one can find, and it'll produce an awful amount of electricity, with each advance in technology allowing for a really cheap changeover.

This is true, but (and you knew there'd be a but) adding additional heat decreases the lifespan of a solar panel, as well as the efficiency of it each year.

Does a solar panel work more effectivly in direct sunlight.How many days of sunshine would you get in Berkeley a year...

we pay between $250 - $450 a month on electricity depending on the month.

If u can cover THAT electricity bill for 25k, i'd do it. That's an insane bill!!! It'd take me a year to cover two of your months, lol

Even IF Ethanol costed the same as Gasoline, which is incorrect... we would AT LEAST stop FUNDING THE SAUDIS....

BUT... with all the jobs created, its a win win

If u can cover THAT electricity bill for 25k, i'd do it. That's an insane bill!!! It'd take me a year to cover two of your months, lol

Running 2 air conditioners, pool pump, garden lighting etc - it adds up.

This is true, but (and you knew there'd be a but) adding additional heat decreases the lifespan of a solar panel, as well as the efficiency of it each year.

You still only have one part to replace when it finally does go bad.

Even IF Ethanol costed the same as Gasoline, which is incorrect... we would AT LEAST stop FUNDING THE SAUDIS....

Ethanol's price might be somewhat cheaper than gasoline, but the true cost is much much greater, and that would be reflected in the price if we didn't have all of these Cold-War era farm subsidies. And there are many, many ways we could smartly make ourselves not dependant on the Middle East, without resorting to roundabout, inefficient technologies to get the job done.

Ethanol is more expensive than gasoline.

1. Currently.. we are fighting terrorism WHILE FUNDING the very people we fight. We spend 140 BILLION DOLLARS on oil a year, and most of that goes to Saudi Arabia, which then in turn thumbs their nose at us. They build "Madras".. which are churches and sanctuarys which house the extreme islamic religions. These religions are the ones who beleive you get to heaven by killing a christian, jew, virgin, etc... So while we FIGHT these people, we FUND THEM.. how fucked up is that?

If you read the Quran, You would understand about the Islamic religon. Here I was expecting someone to offer an alternative source to black gold, but I get Islamic ridicule. I honestly do not get how people under this board can have these perceived notions about the religon when they have not read the Quran. The only thing fucked up is your information about Islam and how you perceive Islam as a cruel and harsh religon. Misconception after misconception people on this board just do not get it. You proclaim that Islam tells Muslims to kill jews. christians, etc. I honestly do not see where you get this information from except what you get on media. And you let this media drive your thoughts instead of thinking freely.

The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, (…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.) (Al-An`am 6: 151)

(Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)) (Al-Israa’ 17: 33).

It is significant that you READ and UNDERSTAND the Quran before you make false accusations about Islam. Arguements about Islamic backwardness is based more on countries that proclaim Islam as their religon rather than Islam in general.

Googs, this thread is not about Islam.

Ethanol is more expensive than gasoline.

I don't know where you're getting that info, but the current price of a gallon of ethanol is around $.24 less than a gallon of regular gasoline.

Googs, this thread is not about Islam.
If you look at decka's first reason, he bashes Islam. It's unfortunate that Islam has to be a topic of the discussion when discussing an alternate source to oil but decka made an ignorant statement and I had to correct it.

If you look at decka's first reason, he bashes Islam. It's unfortunate that Islam has to be a topic of the discussion when discussing an alternate source to oil but decka made an ignorant statement and I had to correct it.

No, if you read correctly i specifically mentioned EXTREME islamic religions....

I never said "The whole islamic religion"...

But what i said about these extremist factions is factual information.. care to debate me on that?

No, if you read correctly i specifically mentioned EXTREME islamic religions....I never said "The whole islamic religion"...


Isn't there only ONE religion named *Islam*........?!?!?!?!

But what i said about these extremist factions is factual information.. care to debate me on that?

I do.

Here is what you said -------""These religions are the ones who beleive you get to heaven by killing a christian, jew, virgin, etc...""

You alleged that the "extreme" Islamic religions preach that ""you get to heaven"" by killing a virgin.

Please provide what evidence you have that that is the case.

No, if you read correctly i specifically mentioned EXTREME islamic religions....

I never said "The whole islamic religion"...

But what i said about these extremist factions is factual information.. care to debate me on that?
The way it you said it was as if you we mentioning Islam as a whole. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. No need to debate on terrorist groups because I know they exist.

Isn't there only ONE religion named *Islam*........?!?!?!?!
For future reference Decka, use the word "denomination" to describe the different sects.

For future reference Decka, use the word "denomination" to describe the different sects.
Do Muslims consider them denominations? I've never heard that word used to describe the differences.

So much for discussing energy alternatives -_-