Prae,this seems to be a subject close to your heart,as an American,quite simply'whats the solution',as regards the border issue,I think its 'closing the stable door,after the horse has bolted'I read the Stats from the Demographics guys,'food for thought'.

Prae,this seems to be a subject close to your heart.
It's VERY close to my heart, Paul. It's my country, and it's in a state of peril. The solution lies in taking a nation-wide referendum on the illegals already here. Then a mass deportation should take place; in short, it involves the authorities sweeping America, and as Divalatina pointed out, in heavily fining the companies caught hiring illegals. We need to drop the incentive for them to come here in the first place. We need to fortify our boarders and concentrate on America - on things like education, family and business. We're at war with the world, and until we can fix ourselves, the war on terror is a moot point. Our economy is due for a crash sooner or later, and I'd rather it be sooner if the alternative lies in losing what my ancestors built to appease a group of people who have absolutely no right to be here. And if the legal Mexicans in America don't like that approach, then they can move, or they can go fuck themselves. It’s their choice. America needs to come first for AMERICANS. Outside of that, nothing else matters.

Very well put,and very patriotic,honest answer,im concerned that youll be labeled an extremeist by your fellow countrymen/women,and will keep an eye on the reactions you get,if its any comfort,if I was American,id feel the same.

The powers that be are USING the immigrants--just like they've done to all the others who've come here---Irish, Chinese---if they're smart, they'll assimilate.

Its coming to the stage were only the rich will live in the America of the 1950s,mostly white,good standard of living,money in your pocket,your already seeing affluent 'white' neighbourhoods being built with surrounding walls,and private security companys guarding them,everybody else is gonna be left behind,in the multi-racial working class..

I'm still working on collecting that money to purchase a one way ticket to Cuba for you, Deepest Red. For some reason I am having difficulty getting people to contribute. The words, communist, beligerant, and obnoxious, keep cropping up. I'll keep trying though, knowing how much you hate living in the United States.

Coming from you that's quite a compliment.

I don't hate the USA, but I do hate some of the chauvinists here.

I don't need a one way ticket though, I'm a hard working person with just as much right to stay as anyone and I won't be driven from the land I've put so much into. I'd rather fight for it, though I can understand why that's beyond your comprehension.

Just for clarification purposes, I'll say it again in case some of you are thinking "racist": our downfall isn't because of Mexico; it's our OWN fault, period.That's not what's racist about your posts, Prae. What's racist is your implication that only white people of European descent will be able to keep this nation prosperous.

I think Prae is onto something here,the cultural tradition of The United States,which has always had its roots in its Northern European ancestry,is going through a marked change,and is now transforming to a Latino/Spanish one..

I think Prae is onto something here,the cultural tradition of The United States,which has always had its roots in its Northern European ancestry,is going through a marked change,and is now transforming to a Latino/Spanish one.. That isn't much of an issue to me, although it undoubtedly is for some close-minds (not pointing at you at all, Prae). America has disseminated it's culture all over the world through the medium of "Hollywood", plus ample helpings of economic might. I'm not worried about "American culture" coming under attack, as they are taking part in assimilating into that every day. What may be a problem in the future is more influence of the Catholic Church in American politics with the more Latinos; which, depending on how you look at it, could be potentially "dangerous" to civil liberties, if you understand what I mean.

It aint much of an issue for me either,as I dont live in the US.Do you reckon that these small right wing religions are more liberal than the Church of Rome,I wouldnt have thought so..

That's not what's racist about your posts, Prae. What's racist is your implication that only white people of European descent will be able to keep this nation prosperous.
I understand why you'd look at it that way, Jester, but let's be realistic and call a spade a spade. These people are coming here, en masse, with an absolute minimum of education, no ability (or very close to it) to speak English, and no desire to assimilate. Now, if you think that last part is an assumption, then you obviously haven't been paying very close attention. In short, they've come here to exploit America, not embrace it. If you truly think their presence here is a constituent ingredient that adds to the recipe for a healthy and prosperous nation, then please explain your position. Remember, we now have to care for and feed 20-40 million more people, and we can't forget that they're on the lower tier of civilized society. Who pays for that.......America does courtesy of John Q. Public. In other words, our CITIZENS. In regards to your statement above, white people of European descent built and fostered this nation's potential from its earliest days. These people (the illegals) haven't built shit. The proof is in the pudding, but people don't like to hear that.

I understand why you'd look at it that way, Jester, but let's be realistic and call a spade a spade. These people are coming here, en masse, with an absolute minimum of education, no ability (or very close to it) to speak English, and no desire to assimilate. Now, if you think that last part is an assumption, then you obviously haven't been paying very close attention.

I've been paying attention Prae, and the repeated contention by you and others that these people don't want to assimilate is bunk. I worked with these people Prae. You have stated that you don't employ illegal aliens where you work, so may I ask where all your contact with these people occurs?


In short, they've come here to exploit America, not embrace it.

Again, where do you get this from?


If you truly think their presence here is a constituent ingredient that adds to the recipe for a healthy and prosperous nation, then please explain your position.

Think "cheap labor".


Remember, we now have to care for and feed 20-40 million more people,

Remember...they came here to work.


and we can't forget that they're on the lower tier of civilized society.

What exactly do you mean by that?


Who pays for that.......America does courtesy of John Q. Public. In other words, our CITIZENS.

Great! Let's make them citizens, so they can help pay for it!


In regards to your statement above, white people of European descent built and fostered this nation's potential from its earliest days.

Yeah, with a little help from a few million negro slaves.


These people (the illegals) haven't built shit. The proof is in the pudding, but people don't like to hear that.

No doubt many "illegals" have worked very hard in the construction trade and have "built" a lot more than you or I ever will.

You have stated that you don't employ illegal aliens where you work, so may I ask where all your contact with these people occurs?

I think that statement might have been a tongue-in-cheek thing to highlight the double-speak that often goes on in corporate America. Meaning, everyone uses illegals to compete, they just don't make it company policy. I could be wrong though...

I understand why you'd look at it that way, Jester, but let's be realistic and call a spade a spade. These people are coming here, en masse, with an absolute minimum of education, no ability (or very close to it) to speak English, and no desire to assimilate. Now, if you think that last part is an assumption, then you obviously haven't been paying very close attention. In short, they've come here to exploit America, not embrace it. If you truly think their presence here is a constituent ingredient that adds to the recipe for a healthy and prosperous nation, then please explain your position. Remember, we now have to care for and feed 20-40 million more people, and we can't forget that they're on the lower tier of civilized society. Who pays for that.......America does courtesy of John Q. Public. In other words, our CITIZENS. In regards to your statement above, white people of European descent built and fostered this nation's potential from its earliest days. These people (the illegals) haven't built shit. The proof is in the pudding, but people don't like to hear that.I don't deny that there are problems that can be caused by so many illegal immigrants coming into the country. However, a change in the racial and cultural make-up of the US is the least of my concerns. There is no logical reason to believe that such a change would lead to the downfall of the US, or that non-whites won't be able to sustain America's economic wealth. WASPs may have built this country, but they're not the only ones who can maintain it.

Yea,lets hope that WASPs disappear into history then.

Good reply pagan, I agree with about 90 percent of what you said, but it is right to simply make people citizens?

We do have a process of becoming a citizen, simply turning the illegal immigrants into citizens completely undermines that process and creates a precident for all people who would like to become American: that all they have to do is get into our boarders and voila, they're Americans now.

If the problem is that the process makes it too difficult to become an American, then argue to change the process, don't simply do away with it.

Yea,lets hope that WASPs disappear into history then.Huh? Where did that come from? That's not even close to what I was saying or what I think.

Most immigrants into US whether legal or not would be of the Catholic faith,and their numbers only add to the single biggest religion in the US,the Catholic Church,out of all the Presidents there have been,only one was a Catholic,and he was murdered under suspicious circumstances,dosnt this show that the hidden faces that truely guide and effectivly run America come from the same private club,the extreme right wing religious fanatics,sponsered by the faceless men behind these churches the WASPs..

Does anyone know what time the Presidents 'border' statement is at..

I've been paying attention Prae, and the repeated contention by you and others that these people don't want to assimilate is bunk.
Oh, and waving a Mexican flag on our streets demanding citizenship doesn't at all give off the impression that they'll stick to their roots, does it? :rolleyes: And the fact that they REFUSE to speak our language apparently denotes "unity" in your mind. Their little Mexican enclaves and all Spanish-speaking communities clearly aren't a big fucking "gringos need not apply" sign. Is your naiveté intentional, or are you blind because it suits your utopian outlook on life better? Just out of curiosity, does the latter help you sleep at night?
I worked with these people Prae.
That doesn’t change anything, Vile. I think you're under the impression that I'm attacking these people personally when I couldn't give two shits about them. I don't care if they're collectively Mother Theresa incarnate; the fact of the matter remains - they're here illegally, and until you understand that it's bad for America, someone should be there yelling in your ear.
You have stated that you don't employ illegal aliens where you work, so may I ask where all your contact with these people occurs?
And if you're working with illegals, then it's your patriotic right, err...scratch that...DUTY, to report your employer to the proper authorities. To do anything else is treason. And just so we're clear - are you implying that you've worked with illegals in the past?
Think "cheap labor".
Think financial myopia. Cheap labor, my ass. Once they've been awarded citizenship, these people will be anything but "cheap". Collectively, they’ll represent a financial nightmare of black Tuesday proportion. Their wages won't be low forever, and when they exercise certain rights under citizenship, (think "labor laws") we're all fucked. These people won't be getting a mere two-fifty an hour anymore. Think about it: we just gave carte blanche to a bunch of weed-pulling, car washing, burger-flippers to make millions of Spanish-speaking, uneducated babies and cripple our economy while we're forced to learn their language and pick up the tab. You might like that reality, but it makes me wanna barf. Everything our ancestors built you might as well flush down a fucking toilet.
Remember...they came here to work.
That and a nickel won't purchase a cup of coffee, Vile. And don't make it sound like it was such a magnanimous gesture on their part either, for not only is your implication here intellectually dishonest - it's grossly insulting. They came here to make a better life for THEMSELVES ILLEGALLY, and guess what - they're winning because they're backed by a bunch of legal Mexicans and a handful of ignorant, shortsighted Americans.
Great! Let's make them citizens, so they can help pay for it!
You can't seriously be this daft. How are they gonna pay for anything, Vile? They can't even pay to birth their own children?
No doubt many "illegals" have worked very hard in the construction trade and have "built" a lot more than you or I ever will.
Sure, I guess when it comes to building things with your hands, they have. And undoubtedly, they were paid for these services. When it comes to building our future, these people will represent the biggest brown underware stain our country's 230 year history has ever had to endure. Face it - we were invaded, and our government didn't do shit about it.

Does anyone know what time the Presidents 'border' statement is at..

I believe it's at 7:00 PM Central, 8:00 PM Eastern....

Thanks vile,unfortunatly il be sleeping by then,something to look forward to tomorrow,the way the threads are going..

Oh, and waving a Mexican flag on our streets demanding citizenship doesn't at all give off the impression that they'll stick to their roots, does it? :rolleyes: And the fact that they REFUSE to speak our language apparently denotes "unity" in your mind.

I suppose not, but I'm not sure what you mean by "unity" either...


Their little Mexican enclaves and all Spanish-speaking communities clearly aren't a big fucking "gringos need not apply" sign. Is your naiveté intentional, or are you blind because it suits your utopian outlook on life better? Just out of curiosity, does the latter help you sleep at night?

Feel better after venting?


That doesn’t change anything, Vile. I think you're under the impression that I'm attacking these people personally when I couldn't give two shits about them. I don't care if they're collectively Mother Theresa incarnate; the fact of the matter remains - they're here illegally, and until you understand that it's bad for America, someone should be there yelling in your ear.

I think that's what's bothering you and everybody else about this problem...all you can do is yell.


And if you're working with illegals, then it's your patriotic right, err...scratch that...DUTY, to report your employer to the proper authorities. To do anything else is treason.

You need to look up the definition of treason, and I don't think you are morally qualified to lecture me about obeying the law.


And just so we're clear - are you implying that you've worked with illegals in the past?

I'll do better than that...until about 2 years ago I worked in a factory that manufactured plastic bottles, jars, etc...at this factory I worked with many hispanics...it was common knowledge at the factory that the temp service who employed them knew many of them were illegals. My experience working with them was a positive one.


Think financial myopia. Cheap labor, my ass. Once they've been awarded citizenship, these people will be anything but "cheap".

Which is why the business community opposes an amnesty.


Collectively, they’ll represent a financial nightmare of black Tuesday proportion. Their wages won't be low forever, and when they exercise certain rights under citizenship, (think "labor laws") we're all fucked. These people won't be getting a mere two-fifty an hour anymore. Think about it: we just gave carte blanche to a bunch of weed-pulling, car washing, burger-flippers to make millions of Spanish-speaking, uneducated babies and cripple our economy while we're forced to learn their language and pick up the tab. You might like that reality, but it makes me wanna barf. Everything our ancestors built you might as well flush down a fucking toilet.

Wow. Sounds positively catastrophic. You forgot to mention exactly how this disaster would occur...


That and a nickel won't purchase a cup of coffee, Vile. And don't make it sound like it was such a magnanimous gesture on their part either, for not only is your implication here intellectually dishonest - it's grossly insulting. They came here to make a better life for THEMSELVES ILLEGALLY, and guess what - they're winning because they're backed by a bunch of legal Mexicans and a handful of ignorant, shortsighted Americans.

Again, you disengenuously suggest that your outrage is based on the fact that they are breaking the law...the same law you break when it suits you to do so.


You can't seriously be this daft.

You're right, I'm not.


How are they gonna pay for anything, Vile? They can't even pay to birth their own children?

And you accuse me of being daft? By working Prae...working and earning a living wage.


Sure, I guess when it comes to building things with your hands, they have. And undoubtedly, they were paid for these services. When it comes to building our future, these people will represent the biggest brown underware stain our country's 230 year history has ever had to endure. Face it - we were invaded, and our government didn't do shit about it.

Prae, I'm not the one having a problem facing facts here. You can bitch about the problem all you want but it won't go away, and neither will the millions of illegal

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith, becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907??

"There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907??

Apparently there's only one right way to be an American.

Apparently there's only one right way to be an American.
Damn straight. Just like there's only one right way to use silverware or communicate in English. Just because I can eat and communicate with my hands doesn't mean I'm eating or speaking properly, does it?
I think that's what's bothering you and everybody else about this problem...all you can do is yell.
Of course it is, Vile. Our government is fucking us. They're breaking the law, and that's entirely UNACCEPTABLE, period. I get held accountable if I break the law and I'm caught. What makes our government think people shouldn't go postal on their asses and burn this shithole to the ground???
You need to look up the definition of treason, and I don't think you are morally qualified to lecture me about obeying the law.
TREASON: (n.) Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies. Read; letting an unchecked foreign invasion go unreported.

Maybe I'm not qualified, personally, to lecture you on "obeying the law", per say, but I am qualified to lecture you in regards to letting illegals work at a facility you KNEW employed them. If you worked with illegals, and you didn't report those criminals to the INS along with the name of the temp agency who hired them initially, then you've injured this country more severely than I ever have. Call it a dereliction of duty to the Nth degree. I've never cost you a dime, Vile - but you've (albeit very indirectly) helped cost this nation BILLIONS.
Again, you disengenuously suggest that your outrage is based on the fact that they are breaking the law...the same law you break when it suits you to do so.
No it's not. My anger is based on the fact that they're breaking the law and our government isn't doing anything about it. If I break the law, I go to jail! Do you get it yet!?

My anger also stems from positively knowing they'll be a drain on our economy in the long run.

Originally Posted by Vilepagan
Again, you disengenuously suggest that your outrage is based on the fact that they are breaking the law...the same law you break when it suits you to do so.

This seems to be a veiled suggestion that the outrage people feel over the illegal immigrants is based on something other than the fact that they are breaking the law.

Care to expand upon the above statement you made, Vile, and tell us your thoughts on why we are so upset?

Speaking of which, I'm sure all of you watched the president last night. His speech wasn't horrible, but unfortunately, I believe his purposed actions are gonna pan out as a bit too little a bit too late. I loved the idea about identifying the illegals biometrically. Hell, I'd take it a step further and I'd electronically chip every offender. That aside, how about these assholes claiming that our "new" (that's a laugh) boarder policy is "tearing up their families"!?!?! Hey, here's an idea, Paco: take your illegal family members and leave with them. Then we won't be relegated to Nazi status because of your asinine implication. I love how they're painting us in the vein of Hitler like we're shipping off the "innocent" to Mexico City via locked train, but not before we've ripped the screaming 5 year-olds from their mother's arms because we're so barbaric. I mean, can these people really be serious??? If you truly feel that way, then get THE F@&% OUT; you're not wanted here.

Prae,as the manager of a small business,''how many times has INS been in contact with your company regarding the workforce''?

paul, whatever the number, hopefully it will increase, not only with Prae's small business but with all businesses both large and small.

Hi Frogger,I was interested in the process that would take place,and what penaltys the company would be liable for,surely if they were severe enough,companys would have to think twice before employing people without the proper documentation..

paul,

In my opinion the government, both Republicans and Democrats, has been, if not complicit, at least allowing on the issue of illegal immigration. A vast cadre of workers afraid to complain about wages or working conditions benefitted certain segments of the business community, especially construction and the food service industry. The only reason the government is beginning to act is the huge public outcry.

Any person knowingly hiring an undocumented worker should receive a heavy fine plus jail time, the size of the fine and the length of time in jail dependent upon the flagrancy of the violation.

This seems to be a veiled suggestion that the outrage people feel over the illegal immigrants is based on something other than the fact that they are breaking the law.

Obviously not veiled enough. :D


Care to expand upon the above statement you made, Vile, and tell us your thoughts on why we are so upset?

To be honest I don't know why you are upset, and I frankly don't understand the depth of your outrage over the breaking of a law that seems rather inconsequential. Perhaps the fact that I see this as a minor legal transgression leads me to see ulterior motives where none exist. :)

Just out of curiosity, what makes this particular crime so egregious?

Prae,as the manager of a small business,''how many times has INS been in contact with your company regarding the workforce''?
The INS has never (to my knowledge) contacted us for any reason. We get audited occasionally, but our payroll, depending on the time of year, which is currently 60,000 dollars a week, gets paid out to legal citizens, and our books are clean. Then again, we're not a car wash or a fruit stand, so I guess I understand why. Our W2's match up to "real" people.

To be honest I don't know why you are upset, and I frankly don't understand the depth of your outrage over the breaking of a law that seems rather inconsequential. Perhaps the fact that I see this as a minor legal transgression leads me to see ulterior motives where none exist. :)
We don't pick and choose laws, Vile. For example, I think the 55 MPH speed limit on our highways is a fucking scam. Think about it; that "limit" was set 50 years ago when cars weighed 7,500 Lbs, had beam axles, leaf springs, drum brakes, and tires that blew out regularly. Why is that limit still set at 55???? Simple...to generate revenue for the state. It sure as shit isn't to "protect" people (as if that's what puts food on a legislator's table at night), but you don't see me driving 90 because I think the current speed limit shouldn't be enforced. What we're breeding here in America is apathy. For the very reasons I've mentioned above (and probably some carelessness thrown into the mix), nobody, INCLUDING LAW ENFORCEMENT, obeys the 55 mile an hour limit anymore. They enforce it occasionally to make some money, but unfortunately, this situation has caused many people to question, "what laws do I take seriously". "Inconsequential" laws have been turned into a running joke by our own government. That being said, illegal immigration is no joke, and it certainly isn't inconsequential. It has serious repercussions, and we're all gonna pay in the long run. The illegality of the offense is only part of the problem, and as inconsequential as you might perceive it to be, it has no bearing on the fact that it was decided long ago if you want to come to America, then you have to go through the legal vetting process. It's like that in ANY OTHER CIVILIZED COUNTRY. America isn't a grab bag for people who have no respect. We're not a fucking free-for-all. Now, I hope you can understand that simple, but entirely fair, bit of logic.

Just out of curiosity, what makes this particular crime so egregious?
Aside from the fact that it's financially devastating to our nation's economy while forgetting that it's illegal in the first place............oh, nothing. I can hear the ads now:....."C'mon up to America where our hard-working taxpayers will gladly pay for your health care, so feel free to birth millions of little Spanish-speaking patriots and don't worry about school - hell, we'll pay for it, and if you don't like our generosity, then you can always stage a demonstration with your legal friends and hurt small businesses across the entire nation."

I mean, after all, I can understand why they'd choose to do that; we only gave them jobs, medical treatment, and educated their children when they had absolutely no right to be here in the first place. Yeah, real fair...:rolleyes:

If this shit doesn't piss you off, Vile, then something's seriously wrong with your brain.

Vile,

The breaking of the law by a single illegal alien is inconsequential. When that same law is broken by 11,000,000 plus illegal aliens it becomes quite consequential.

Good point.

Can I confirm the speed limit here is 30 in town,60 on country roads,70 on motorways........part 2. Prae has a ponit here,its beginning to look from mexico that USA stands for ''United Suckers OF America'' sorry guys.

Can I confirm the speed limit here is 30 in town,60 on country roads,70 on motorways.........
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're asking, but....

Here, in America, typically the speed limits are 25 MPH in a residential neighborhood, 55 thru 75 on the highway (depending on the state), and 40 thru 50 on a county or a two lane road with traffic lights.
part 2. Prae has a ponit here,its beginning to look from mexico that USA stands for ''United Suckers OF America'' sorry guys.
Oh, trust me, we do, and we have. These people don't "love" America. They come here to make money so they can send the majority of it back home. They drive around in cars adorned with Mexican flags, blare their Mexican music, and have no desire to assimilate, period. Their only allegiance is to their paycheck, not the American public. Paul, it's sad, but our country is being laughed at over this shit, and our government (up to this point in time) hasn't done anything about it.

How many National Guard are going to the border 6500,whats that 2 per kilometer,now that is funny,rabbit fences in Australia are more effective,christsake..

How many National Guard are going to the border 6500,whats that 2 per kilometer,now that is funny,rabbit fences in Australia are more effective,christsake..
No doubt.

However, it's the unmanned drones and surveillance equipment (that should have been installed years ago) that'll hopefully curb the influx (or, at least, that's the plan...). I think we should chip every Mexican caught trying to cross our boarder illegally. That way, we'll know exactly where they are, and if they try to cross again, then we can throw 'em in a locked hole with a clean conscience. Any American caught giving aid to the illegals should face a mandatory 10-year federal rap. Any business (knowingly) caught hiring illegals should lose its business license, and face enormous fines.

Enough is enough already.....

Dont you mean,'lock em in a clean hole,with a locked consciencs' prae..

Vile,

The breaking of the law by a single illegal alien is inconsequential. When that same law is broken by 11,000,000 plus illegal aliens it becomes quite consequential.
================================================== =
An illegal can be caught here and just sent home. You, can have illegals at work and nothing will probably be done to you.

Just don't get caught with those dangerous Cuban cigars, the news said that the penalty is up to 10 years in prison, and up to $10,000 in fines. :eek:

I for one will no longer visit Mexico and spend my money there. I will also stop purchasing Mexican made products here in the States.

If the Mexican government continues to aid and assist in the illegal border crossings and if illegal Mexican immigrants threaten to shut down the American economy I will treat Mexico as a hostile nation.

I have spent my last peso on anything Mexican.

I don't have a problem with you boycotting Mexican products, but will you still buy American products since the American government "continues to aid and assist in the illegal border crossings"?

No, dnamertz, I have lately become fully self sufficient. I grow my own food, weave my own cloth to make clothing burn only fallen timber to heat my home and use a windmill to generate electricity so I can post on the internet.

Of course I will continue to buy made in American stuff. I will also vote to try to effect a change in the country's immigration policy when the time comes. I can't vote to change Mexico's government but I can vote to change mine.

This is what happens when you have too much time on your hands,

Posted by a man who has posted more than five hundred times in two months time.:drinktoth

Never noticed that.But us people 'have the gift o the gab'..

Aside from the fact that it's financially devastating to our nation's economy while forgetting that it's illegal in the first place............oh, nothing. I can hear the ads now:....."C'mon up to America where our hard-working taxpayers will gladly pay for your health care, so feel free to birth millions of little Spanish-speaking patriots and don't worry about school - hell, we'll pay for it, and if you don't like our generosity, then you can always stage a demonstration with your legal friends and hurt small businesses across the entire nation."

I mean, after all, I can understand why they'd choose to do that; we only gave them jobs, medical treatment, and educated their children when they had absolutely no right to be here in the first place. Yeah, real fair...:rolleyes:

If this shit doesn't piss you off, Vile, then something's seriously wrong with your brain.

Prae, you lose me with your argument when you go off on a rant about how we're paying for everything in regards to these "illegals" and how they get free education, health care, etc....that's simply false.

The vast majority of these people work, and PAY TAXES. All of the people I worked with had the same deductions taken out of their paychecks that I had taken out of mine. Sounds fair to me.

The only reason these people are criminals is because in 1921 we decided that crossing the border without the proper documentation was now a crime. You can be outraged that some people are breaking the law, and I can accept that, but let's be honest about the fact that other than crossing the border without permission, they aren't criminals for the most part, just people looking for a better life. If given the opportunity the vast majority will become productive citizens of this country.

Oh, trust me, we do, and we have. These people don't "love" America. They come here to make money so they can send the majority of it back home. They drive around in cars adorned with Mexican flags, blare their Mexican music, and have no desire to assimilate, period. Their only allegiance is to their paycheck, not the American public. Paul, it's sad, but our country is being laughed at over this shit, and our government (up to this point in time) hasn't done anything about it.

All of this is completely speculative on your part Prae, and rather biased as well.

Prae, you lose me with your argument when you go off on a rant about how we're paying for everything in regards to these "illegals" and how they get free education, health care, etc....that's simply false.

The vast majority of these people work, and PAY TAXES. All of the people I worked with had the same deductions taken out of their paychecks that I had taken out of mine. Sounds fair to me.

The only reason these people are criminals is because in 1921 we decided that crossing the border without the proper documentation was now a crime. You can be outraged that some people are breaking the law, and I can accept that, but let's be honest about the fact that other than crossing the border without permission, they aren't criminals for the most part, just people looking for a better life. If given the opportunity the vast majority will become productive citizens of this country.

I don't know who you know, but the whole point about illegals not having documentation about entering the country is that they WON'T pay taxes, how can the gov't subtract it from their paychecks if:
a) they don't exist on paper records
b)most get payed under the counter, cash, no actual 'paycheck'

we should not limit legal immigration but make it easier while cracking down on illegal immigration.

I don't know who you know, but the whole point about illegals not having documentation about entering the country is that they WON'T pay taxes, how can the gov't subtract it from their paychecks if:
a) they don't exist on paper records
b)most get payed under the counter, cash, no actual 'paycheck'

we should not limit legal immigration but make it easier while cracking down on illegal immigration.

A) Most illegals do exist on paper, it's just forged paper.

B) Several years ago the regulations for hiring people in this country changed requiring employers to provide a social security number for every employee. Most illegals use a forged or duplicate SS card when seeking employment. Most of these illegals do pay the same deductions as you may be familiar with.

Why not get a real SS? Why not enter normally then, if they're going to abide by all rules and regulations? I'm truly curious.

Why not get a real SS? Why not enter normally then, if they're going to abide by all rules and regulations? I'm truly curious.Because it takes a long time, and there's a very good chance that they won't get to enter the country at all. The immigration process is very selective.

Why not get a real SS? Why not enter normally then, if they're going to abide by all rules and regulations? I'm truly curious.

There's a limit on how many people from each country are allowed to legally enter this country each year, and an additional number of visas are granted each year using a lottery system. The number of people who are desperate to enter this country far exceeds those numbers, hence the influx of "illegals".

To get a "real" SS card you have to show proof of citizenship, a birth certificate usually, and these are easily forged.

Prae, you lose me with your argument when you go off on a rant about how we're paying for everything in regards to these "illegals" and how they get free education, health care, etc....that's simply false.
No it's NOT!

Fact: we're paying for their medical care because they CAN'T, period. (Think: trauma care)

Fact: a pregnant woman receives care when she enters a hospital, period. Maybe not prenatal care, but that makes it even worse yet. If that woman has any complications, then we're FORCED (by US law, no less) to operate and provide whatever medical assistance we can. And guess what...who do you think picks up the tab? (And if not to add insult to injury) we get kneed in the balls because Lupita just gave birth to 4 new CITIZENS in the past 4 years alone. Now, do you think our government DENIES their kids an education? Fuck no...they're now US citizens which makes them a collective problem (to say the least).

Vile, these people make pennies compared to most of us, so even if they are paying taxes (which is highly doubtful), their contribution still amounts to a pittance, pure and simple. Dude, open your eyes. We're not socialists here; we don't give people free medical care, however they seem to get it without a hitch.
The vast majority of these people work, and PAY TAXES. All of the people I worked with had the same deductions taken out of their paychecks that I had taken out of mine. Sounds fair to me.
SO WHAT?!?!?!

They also pay sales tax when they buy envelopes from currency exchanges so they can send money back to Mexico via Western Union. Is that enough to give 'em a free pass, too? Are you aware that we're Mexico's No. 1 cash crop? So......let me guess: It's come on up, fellas - we're ripe for exploitation, and here's the kicker: some of our own citizens don't even give a shit. How sweet and stupid we are as a nation....

All of this is completely speculative on your part Prae, and rather biased as well.
It's a sad fact, but it's a fact, nonetheless.

Vile,

They do receive a free education. Educational institutions, even if they know children are here illegaly and their parents are not paying property tax or any other tax WILL NOT report them to the authorities. The rest of us end up paying for their free education. It is the same with hospitals. Every time I go to the hospital I pay a surcharge that goes toward treating those who cannot pay, the majority of whom happen to be illegal immigrants.

I've read this entire thread and I have to agree with simply EVERYTHING that Prae has said. Well, subtract all the swearing and the ankle grabbing...heh heh. Vile, I simply don't understand why you portray an "oh well" attitude about the situation. I don't mean any disrespect to you...I'm just still scratching my head.

If China (or any other country) shared a border with us, do you think we would be acting differently when their immigrants poured in? The point I'm trying to make is - immigrants come to this Country every day. Why can't the Mexicans simply do it the way everyone else has to do it? The US immigration laws are in effect for good reason. Every immigrant should have to obey the law, follow appropriate procedures, etc. in order to be allowed into the US. Period. It doesn't matter if you're Japanese, Austrialian, or British.

Like Prae said, this simply does not happen in any other country. Our government has to fix the problem now before it gets any worse. (Funny that they're riding this issue all the way to the elections in November...but at least it's a bipartisan issue...for the most part.)

Good to see everyone is still alive and kicking. :)

Good to see everyone is still alive and kicking. :)
Check in more often, Cricket. What...are you taking your job more seriously now? ;)

They do receive a free education. Educational institutions, even if they know children are here illegaly and their parents are not paying property tax or any other tax WILL NOT report them to the authorities. The rest of us end up paying for their free education.

Everyone pays property taxes - whether directly by owning property or indirectly by renting it.

It is the same with hospitals. Every time I go to the hospital I pay a surcharge that goes toward treating those who cannot pay, the majority of whom happen to be illegal immigrants.

No doubt many of the people that cannot pay are illegal, but a majority? Is that a statistic or a supposition?

I dont blame them for coming into America illegally. They come here for a better life than what they have in Mexico. And what they consider a better life is crap to us. I kind of sympathize with them. If it were anyother country and they were in the state that Mexico is in now, they would do the exact samething. Regardless, it is unfair that they cheat the system and they cut in line before other immigrants. But it's nothing I am too concerned about.

It's a supposition, Lionel, but one based on observation.

Vile, I simply don't understand why you portray an "oh well" attitude about the situation. I don't mean any disrespect to you...I'm just still scratching my head.

WB saycricket, nice to see you again.:)

To answer your question saycricket, I may come across as having an "oh well" attitude about this problem because I don't see it as that bad of a problem. I don't share the opinion that these immigrants represent the end of our society as we know it. There have been many claims, mostly by Prae, that these people have no desire to assimilate, and refuse to learn our language. My experiences with illegal immigrants don't support those ideas, and the same has been said about every large group of immigrants that have assimilated into our society.

I look at it this way. We decided some years ago, rather arbitrarily, that people walking across an imaginary line on a map were no longer refugees from poverty and oppression, they were criminals intent on destroying our way of life. We told them that it was a crime to come here, but we didn't actually enforce that law, insofar as we didn't keep them out. In effect, we told them that they could come here and work in the shadows of our society, for less than a living wage, and yet we also told them they can't avail themselves of the social programs put in place for low income workers. We liked the fact that we had access to a pool of cheap labor, we just didn't like paying the costs associated with such a group, and we wail that they are here "illegally" when one of them seeks medical treatment that they cannot afford on the wages they typically earn. Making these people into criminals has the effect of making it more difficult for them extricate themselves from this economic postion in our society, thus helping to ensure another generation of cheap labor. Labelling them criminal also makes it easier for us to despise them as "undesireables".


In short cricket, these people are criminals merely because we've said they are, not because they've hurt someone, or stolen anything. They may be criminals in the technical sense, but I don't see them as criminals in the moral sense, and I see no reason to treat them as such.

If China (or any other country) shared a border with us, do you think we would be acting differently when their immigrants poured in?

No, but then again, I don't think we should model out laws after those of China.


The point I'm trying to make is - immigrants come to this Country every day. Why can't the Mexicans simply do it the way everyone else has to do it?

Because they share a border with us, and they are typically rather more desperate than your average Canadian.


The US immigration laws are in effect for good reason.

What do you think that reason is?


Every immigrant should have to obey the law, follow appropriate procedures, etc. in order to be allowed into the US. Period. It doesn't matter if you're Japanese, Austrialian, or British.

Oh, but it does matter cricket. I would suspect that your average Japanese, Aussie, or Brit, would be better educated and have more financial reserves, both of which make it much easier to come to this country "legally". I feel compelled to point out that the only illegal act committed by most illegal immigrants is the act of immigrating itself.


Like Prae said, this simply does not happen in any other country.

Sure it does. We just have a very large number of people who wish to come here because it's a desireable place to be. To be honest, we should worry more when people stop wanting to come here in such large numbers.


Our government has to fix the problem now before it gets any worse. (Funny that they're riding this issue all the way to the elections in November...but at least it's a bipartisan issue...for the most part.)

Which is of course the only reason the immigration issue is being bandied about now.


Good to see everyone is still alive and kicking. :)

Same to you. :flowers:

In short cricket, these people are criminals merely because we've said they are, not because they've hurt someone, or stolen anything. They may be criminals in the technical sense, but I don't see them as criminals in the moral sense, and I see no reason to treat them as such.This is a strong argument, Vile. Opponents of illegal immigration would do well to focus on those who profit by employing illegals rather than on how 'undesirable' they are.

This is a strong argument, Vile. Opponents of illegal immigration would do well to focus on those who profit by employing illegals rather than on how 'undesirable' they are.
What's wrong with focusing on both? These people are "undesirable", and the businesses caught employing them should be heavily fined or shut down, period.

Because they share a border with us, and they are typically rather more desperate than your average Canadian.
So WTF are we supposed to be: clubmed?

If your borders are 'open',desperate people will cross them for a better life,whether it be legal or not.It really amazed me when this issue first rose,as a foreigner I couldnt believe it that zillions of dollars were being spent on 'Homeland Security',at the same time as aliens were just 'stepping in',to the US,at will,Which person or body is responsible for securing the border.

What's wrong with focusing on both? These people are "undesirable", and the businesses caught employing them should be heavily fined or shut down, period.First of all, several of my ancestors, and probably some of your own, were considered 'undesirable' immigrants. The Germans, Irish and Italians (among others) were all despised in turn by those who preceded them here. Second, it makes you sound like a racist.

Yea,have to go along with that Sedan.Used to hear storys filter back to Ireland here about a lot of anti Irishness in US,way back when..

At one time the U.S. had a need for immigration. We needed immigrants to help open the west, run the factories, etc.. Immigration no longer serves those purposes. Today most immigrants do not add appreciably to the wellbeing of the country. The U.S. is a safety valve for other countries who know that their malcontents and those who they refuse to care for will leave. This is the case in Haiti, Latin America and certain African countries. We have to decide if immigration is to be for our interest or for the interest of those countries that will not make the necessary reforms to better the lives of their people. Why should the U.S. help prop up a corrupt Mexican government?

First of all, several of my ancestors, and probably some of your own, were considered 'undesirable' immigrants.
True, but it’s an apples and oranges comparison, and if you bear with me, I'll try to explain why. First off, I understand where you're coming from, Sedan, and having said that, I'd like you to know that I'm well aware of the fact that people are afraid of change. When the English in America hated the Irish, Germans, and Italians back way when, a lot of the hatred was admittedly misplaced because the English feared change (and I think we both know that's a fairly common problem with people in general). Secondly, and more importantly, those same people BUILT this nation with an unspoken sense of unity. The Mexicans aren't here to "build" anything; no, they're here to TAKE. In short, these people are the table scraps of civilized society, and if you scrutinize the situation even slightly, you'll see they have ZERO drive to assimilate. They hardly (if ever) speak any English, they aren't educated, they fuck like rabbits, and they're devastating to our economy in the long run (and it doesn't take a genius to see why). All this, and they're criminals to boot. Now, I seriously hope that you can see a big enough difference between the two times in our nation's history to warrant an opinion change.

Why should the U.S. help prop up a corrupt Mexican government?
Because people like Vilepagan think it's our job.

Praetorian,

I don't post very much on this subject because, unlike most issues, I don't see it as a clear case of right or wrong; I find compelling arguments on both sides. For example, I'd also like an answer to Frogger's question Why should the U.S. help prop up a corrupt Mexican government? It is perplexing to me that a country of such abundant resources and industrious people as Mexico should be as poverty-stricken as it is. It seems not to matter how Mexico changes politically; there is always a powerful self-serving oligarchy in control at the top, a weak middle-class, and an ubiquitous yet politically impotent underclass. This societal structure, along with inherited Spanish institutions, lends itself to corruption on a massive scale. When our politicians speak of the need for regime change in other countries I often wonder why Mexico is never mentioned.

On the other hand, I don't buy your argument that Mexicans are 'undesirables' who will be 'devastating to our economy'. Here's part of an editorial from the New York Daily News that makes sense to me:

Overall, the number of foreign-born workers rose from 13 million in 1994 to 21 million in 2004. That's an increase of 8 million, double what the legal limits would allow, and the surge has made illegal immigrants a sizable presence in numerous job sectors. The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that 24% of agricultural workers, 36% of insulation workers, 29% of roofers, 28% of dry wall installers and 12% of food preparation workers are undocumented.

Looking forward, the Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates the U.S. will need 631,000 more home health aides, 414,000 new janitors and 367,000 more waiters by 2012 - job categories heavily filled by immigrants. And after that? By 2015 or 2020, the birth rate is expected to decline to less than one child per adult. For the workforce to keep up with demand, the nation will need immigrants in the decades to come.

In fact, the Census Bureau estimates that by mid-century most growth in the labor force will come from immigrants; projections are that 83% of an anticipated 60 million increase in the 15-to-64 population will be immigrants and their children. That's the workforce of the future, and the country can't do without it.

As you know, I seldom agree with President Bush. But on this issue I agree wth him that there must be some 'rational middle ground' between granting amnesty and deporting 11 million people.

Aaaahhhh, if only the native Americans, of the whole continent, had been a strong nation, when the "undesirable narrow minded religious fanatics and thieves from all over EUROPE (mainly Spain, Portugal, England, and the Dutch) arrived to these lands. We would be better off, if we could have sent them back to their homes aboard their filthy stinking ships, with all their diseases, greed, and their superiority complex. But "América" got screwed with those "undesirables"..... After over 500 years, (less than 400 for the north), the traces of their narrow minded religious fanaticism can still be felt all over, not just in this country, but on most of the American continent .....

Yep, they sure would have been better off. Not a single one of them had managed to invent the wheel and those in the central part of the Americas believed in ripping the still beating hearts out of thousands of sacrificial victims. They were killing each other and enslaving each other long before the Europeans landed.

I take it your not 'white' cromagnon.

Yep, they sure would have been better off. Not a single one of them had managed to invent the wheel and those in the central part of the Americas believed in ripping the still beating hearts out of thousands of sacrificial victims. They were killing each other and enslaving each other long before the Europeans landed.

And? ..... The Europeans came, and almost wiped out the whole continent of their natives, they did it, with their diseases, and slavery, or simply because they felt superior. One of these nations, the Incas, it is believed that at the time the Spaniards arrived there were around 12 million of them, a while after, only 1 million was left alive, still under slavery, or second or even third class people, when not treated as subhumans. So what kind of good did they bring? U.S. Europeans were the last ones to wipe out the native nations, so don't feel so bad when some people remind today's North Americans of what their ancestors did to the Sioux, Cherokees, Cheyennes, Arapahoe, Apaches, etc. etc., the other Europeans did worse in the other countries of América. And the European wars, with the help of the Anglo Americans have killed more people in the last 150 years than any other time in history, since we separated from our "ape" ancestors .....
And as for the wheel, eventually in time every nation would have found out about it. And the human sacrifices, through history, every group of people has done the same. OK, they were a little behind, but don't you know that América was considered the "new" world, they were technologically underdeveloped if compared to the other continents. Europeans were salvages too, while the China and India were way ahead ...

I take it your not 'white' cromagnon.

Unfortunately, like probably you and many others in the Forum, I also have European blood, but I am not blind, and I don't take sides with the ones who I think have done a lot of wrong just because they have the same skin color as I do.

Yep,would have to say until recently,Britain treated my country with extreme cruelty and contempt,the vast majority of Irish Americans ancesters were forced to go Stateside.During the 'Famine' 1.5 million Irish starved to death,another 1 million were forced to leave,for the 'new' world.Today 5 million people live in Ireland,if the Famine hadnt happened,it would be 25 million,

If I have gone a little off the purpose of this thread, has been because of the language, such as "undesirables", so I remembered that many Europeans who left or were forced to leave Europe, were considered "undesirables" by those who held power in those times ...

Posted by Sedan It is perplexing to me that a country of such abundant resources and industrious people as Mexico should be as poverty-stricken as it is. It seems not to matter how Mexico changes politically; there is always a powerful self-serving oligarchy in control at the top, a weak middle-class, and an ubiquitous yet politically impotent underclass. This societal structure, along with inherited Spanish institutions, lends itself to corruption on a massive scale. When our politicians speak of the need for regime change in other countries I often wonder why Mexico is never mentioned.

I agree with this also. I mean for all the invading we have done, why not invade Mexico? LOL - just kidding, of course.

I hear you, Vile, when you say that because we share a border with Mexico, that more Mexicans vs. Canadians are filtering into our Country. I understand that because their lifestyle in Mexico is in the toilet, they want a better life. I get all that. But, they should take it upon themselves to fix THAT problem. We can't be "clubmed" to them forever.

I think the US immigration laws are in effect, essentially, just for this particular purpose. To control who/what comes into this Country for the greater good of the Country as a whole. I also know that my view of the greater good is not necessarily the same as your view, or the current government's view. However, if you follow all the procedures correctly in order to get in, you should be a productive member of society, have a good education (or enroll for one), and thus, obtain a decent job, etc. Obviously the immigrants come here for a better life and lifestyle. I believe they should contribute to that lifestyle themselves instead of having it handed to them just because their prior lifestyle blows. This should apply to any immigrant (in my view) not just a Mexican...so include the Arabs, Muslims, Germans, British, etc. that come to this Country to work as doctors, scientists, motel owners, etc. We can give tax breaks to Corporations and these people - but not enough to the normal working joe....Oh god...I'm digressing.

And Prae, I guess I am taking my job a bit more seriously...I'm still up to my eyeballs in work. (And here I sit. LOL!)

On the other hand, I don't buy your argument that Mexicans are 'undesirables' who will be 'devastating to our economy'.
Let's get something nice and sparkling clear:

I'm not calling these people "undesirable" because they're inherently dumb or bad people; they're undesirable because they're unskilled, uneducated, they birth children in record number, and they hardly (if ever) speak any English. Just because we'll have our busboy quota filled by 2020 doesn't mean these people should be considered a welcome addition to our largely failing economy in 2006. The amount of money in services these people cost us LAST YEAR alone (that's before citizenship, mind you) is sheerly mind boggling. Yes, truth be told, these people do offer us a service (albeit a minimal one in the grand scheme of things), however, to justify their presence with a speculative newspaper article borders on insane. It may be a fact that by 2012 we'll need 414,000 new janitors, but if you think about it, it hardly matters. We'll eventually find people to fill those jobs (and when Americans can't feed themselves anymore (something we aren't very used to), then trust me, we'll work for peanuts). In short, it's a simple cost/benefit analysis of the obvious, and, in my opinion, having them here isn't financially beneficial in the long term. No matter how you wanna spin it, Sedan, that, my friend, is a cold, hard fact. We have roughly 300,000,000 people in this country; we're not short on help.

That aside, if the economy ever crashes, we'll have 20-40 million more mouths to feed. In all, you can't argue; it's a shitty plan, period, and let's not forget that we just gave carte blanche to a bunch of landscapers. My point is simple; the only thing these people can do is menial work, and what good is that when your country is broke? I can find anybody to wash my car, screw up my fast-food order, or lay my insulation. Let's face it, these people aren't national assets, hence the term "undesirable" comes into play.

This problem has been around almost forever, why is it that now it is being given such a national attention, to the point that everything else has fallen to 2nd and or 3rd place, or even disappeared from the MEDIA, where are the catastrophic failings of the Bush administration, the scandals, the wars created by him and the Corporations to pocket huge gains. Politicians are masters for deviating the attention of the general public to other issues, when the real dangers have become too hot to handle. Are these immigrants the scapegoats of his failings?, are these individuals the new "Jews" of an emerging police state?, are we going to see beatings, more than the ones that happen sometimes along the border? This issue can easily get out of hand, especially with the extremists groups, like Arians, KKKs, etc. Or this issue will slowly cool down, once the others (the main issues) have almost no MEDIA coverage.
Governments everywhere hire the best psychoanalysts, to perform what is called mass psicosocial handling, bet you, they have the best experts at hand to do, what they are just doing since he came into power.

Do you think this issue is being played for political gain,or a distraction from foreign affairs maybe..

Do you think this issue is being played for political gain,or a distraction from foreign affairs maybe..
This is no distraction. It's a HUGE issue, and it's one that's been completely ignored for the past 50 years. To be totally honest, it's pissed me off all my life. Bush didn't make these assholes skip work to protest on OUR streets DEMANDING citizenship. If they wanna know why it's such a big issue now, then they're either congenitally insane or irretrievably stupid. Take your pick.

If it has lasted the 50 or more years our friend The praetorian says, which I am sure it is true, maybe more than the 50 years, it hasn't hurt the economy at all, I could even say that ball has been rolling smoothly, guess they were needed all the time ...

This is no distraction. It's a HUGE issue, and it's one that's been completely ignored for the past 50 years. To be totally honest, it's pissed me off all my life. Bush didn't make these assholes skip work to protest on OUR streets DEMANDING citizenship. If they wanna know why it's such a big issue now, then they're either congenitally insane or irretrievably stupid. Take your pick.
I can see from your posts this is a very passionate subject for you,and I would agree,anyone in the US illegally,protesting to gain the same rights as US citizens,is a bit of a fucking cheek,if it were to happen in say Dublin,there would be 'riots',with Irish people looking them OUT.On another sort of related note,would it be fair to say,youd be a real bitch to work for,you loose the rag a lot here.

I believe that things in Ireland, which I would love to visit, is not the same as it is in the U.S. most of you, have been there forever, but in the US, everybody, but the natives (Indians), most North Americans are immigrants or descendants of them. Just as it is in all the other countries of the whole América, it is a touchy subject of discussion. And I don't think we will agree on all the details. Also, I see that many other groups are kind of quiet, only the ones from Mexico are saying something, there are hundreds of thousands of Asians if not millions, that are brought in a sort of slave labor (to pay for the expenses of having been brought in awful conditions to the west coast), so the 17 million illegals could rise to a lot, lot more. U.S. has several times more land than the other developed countries, and there are lots of illegals workers in the fields picking up vegetables and fruit that can't be done by machinery. Do you know how much would you have to pay for a kilo of grapes, if these migrant workers wouldn't be there? What is needed is some investing in Mexico creating small enterprises where needed to keep poor people in their native countries. China is getting most of the foreign investments of the US, the big corporations are fabricating almost everything over there, and then shipping the goods to the US, "so those who have lost their jobs buy these goods from their former employers".
By the way, it doesn't matter how many laws could be passed, US will be a bilingual country in a couple of generations with an English Spanish culture, which is not wrong, like Canada is bilingual with their English French culture. Most US people cling fiercely to having just one language, english, as they do with the obsolete systems of the Farenheit scale, and the inch, foot, mile thing, tradition? ... Grow up!

Boycotting Mexico is a good idea.
Presidente Fox praised men and women fleeing his nation and entering the United States as 'patriots'. They are waging an undeclared war against the United States and you are right to suggest this.

Drugs, violence and civil strife has arisen in the United States due not only to greedy Americans stupidly employing these people but because of violent, inept and greedy Mexican officials who, afraid of what would happen if those people remained in Mexico convinced the stupid heads to leave.

The face of Mexico would change overnight if those cowardly people that fled here stood their ground and took what rightfully belonged to them - Mexico - instead of what used to belong to us.

This nation has been demoralized and undermined spiritually, financially and ideologically by the spirit worshipping, drug dealing invaders and the nation that spawned this misery must be faced with the justice of their acts and that is to cease trading with them.

Let the Japanese, Germans and Chinese make all the little plastic doodads they want to Mexico - they are not fit products to put on American shelves or allow across our borders.

Boycotting Mexico is a good idea.
Presidente Fox praised men and women fleeing his nation and entering the United States as 'patriots'. They are waging an undeclared war against the United States and you are right to suggest this.

Drugs, violence and civil strife has arisen in the United States due not only to greedy Americans stupidly employing these people but because of violent, inept and greedy Mexican officials who, afraid of what would happen if those people remained in Mexico convinced the stupid heads to leave.

The face of Mexico would change overnight if those cowardly people that fled here stood their ground and took what rightfully belonged to them - Mexico - instead of what used to belong to us.

This nation has been demoralized and undermined spiritually, financially and ideologically by the spirit worshipping, drug dealing invaders and the nation that spawned this misery must be faced with the justice of their acts and that is to cease trading with them.

Let the Japanese, Germans and Chinese make all the little plastic doodads they want to Mexico - they are not fit products to put on American shelves or allow across our borders.

Bla bla bla bla bla bla ....

I have a theory,if you boycott Mexican goods,you create more unemployment in Mexico,thus you create more people looking a better life 'up north'.I dont know if you guys have this system or not,is there some sort of 'National Identity Card' in America..

I have a theory,if you boycott Mexican goods,you create more unemployment in Mexico,thus you create more people looking a better life 'up north'.I dont know if you guys have this system or not,is there some sort of 'National Identity Card' in America..

That's true, more unemployment, and there isn't a "National Identity Card" .
Some don't want it, because it would be something like having a file about you in Big Brother's hands, even though, I think they already have a file on everyone.

Hmmm,looks like the only answer is gonna be a Mexico line,like the Maginot line.

The majority of Mexicans who illegaly cross the border do not add substantially to the U.S. economy. In fact, they are a drain on the economy. Much of the money they make does not stay here. It goes back to Mexico to the tune of billions of dollars. Money made illegally in the United States is the greatest source of income in Mexico, greater than the money generated from their petroleum industry or tourism.

Mexico is playing a do as I say, not as I do game vis a vis immigration. Mexico whines that the U.S. is being mean by not allowing Mexicans to enter the country whenever they feel like it yet Mexico goes so far as to shoot illegal immigrants entering their country. In the U.S. all public offices except for President and Vice President are open to citizens who have immigrated from other countries. In Mexico naturalized citizens are banned from all public offices, police forces and many other jobs. Until recently higher political offices were open only to people who could prove both their parents and grandparents were Mexican born.

It is time for a bit of tough love in our relations with Mexico. We should tell them to put their house in order and stop depending on the United States to act as their safety valve. When more than ten percent of one nation's citizens escape to a neighboring nation it tells you something about the nation they are leaving.

On another issue, Praetorian is right. A large part of the problem is caused by the Mexican's unwillingness to assimilate. When people from other cultures came to the United States it was with the idea of remaining here and becoming 100% Americans. They learned the language, celebrated the holidays, cooked the food and listened to the music of their adopted country. With Mexicans and other Latin Americans it is different. Rather than wishing to become Americans they wish for Americans to become more Mexican. They do not learn the language. Most of them have no intention of staying here but only of earning money and then returning to Mexico. They are more intent on La Raza than on being American. They do not attempt to learn the language of the country, instead they listen to their own music, watch their own television stations, speak Spanish when calling businesses on the phone, vote in Spanish and in general act like a foreign invader in the body politic.

In short, they try to turn the United States into Mexico, a country so bad they chose to leave it rather than stay and try to fix it.

The majority of Mexicans who illegaly cross the border do not add substantially to the U.S. economy. In fact, they are a drain on the economy. Much of the money they make does not stay here. It goes back to Mexico to the tune of billions of dollars. Money made illegally in the United States is the greatest source of income in Mexico, greater than the money generated from their petroleum industry or tourism.

You're right Frogger, these people should be forced to put their money in American banks so that when we find out it belongs to an "illegal" we can seize it.


Mexico is playing a do as I say, not as I do game vis a vis immigration. Mexico whines that the U.S. is being mean by not allowing Mexicans to enter the country whenever they feel like it yet Mexico goes so far as to shoot illegal immigrants entering their country. In the U.S. all public offices except for President and Vice President are open to citizens who have immigrated from other countries. In Mexico naturalized citizens are banned from all public offices, police forces and many other jobs. Until recently higher political offices were open only to people who could prove both their parents and grandparents were Mexican born.

It is time for a bit of tough love in our relations with Mexico. We should tell them to put their house in order and stop depending on the United States to act as their safety valve. When more than ten percent of one nation's citizens escape to a neighboring nation it tells you something about the nation they are leaving.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to leave such a paradise.


On another issue, Praetorian is right. A large part of the problem is caused by the Mexican's unwillingness to assimilate.

Not to mention the problems caused by those who refuse to recognize assimilation when they see it.


When people from other cultures came to the United States it was with the idea of remaining here and becoming 100% Americans. They learned the language, celebrated the holidays, cooked the food and listened to the music of their adopted country.

Right....they ate good American food like sauerkraut, spaghetti, and any number of other foods from other countries which are now considered common American delicasies.


With Mexicans and other Latin Americans it is different.

You're right, we are treating the Mexicans differently....maybe it's because they had the gall to be from somewhere other than Europe.


Rather than wishing to become Americans they wish for Americans to become more Mexican.

Bull.


They do not learn the language.

You and Prae keep repeating this although you never explain why you feel this way. All of the immigrants I had the pleasure to work with were proficient in English to one degree or another, and you have to be pretty jaded not to understand that anyone coming to this country will learn English if only to make their lives easier.


Most of them have no intention of staying here but only of earning money and then returning to Mexico.

I can't imagine why anyone would feel unwelcome here...after all, we only call them "undesireable" because we like them.


They are more intent on La Raza than on being American. They do not attempt to learn the language of the country, instead they listen to their own music, watch their own television stations, speak Spanish when calling businesses on the phone, vote in Spanish and in general act like a foreign invader in the body politic.

::shakes head::


In short, they try to turn the United States into Mexico, a country so bad they chose to leave it rather than stay and try to fix it.

Tell me Frogger, are all immigrants to other countries cowards who are too lazy to improve things in their country of origin, or is it just the Mexicans who deserve your disdain? Were the people who originally settled this country cowards because they fled England rather than work for a better England?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogger
The majority of Mexicans who illegaly cross the border do not add substantially to the U.S. economy. In fact, they are a drain on the economy. Much of the money they make does not stay here. It goes back to Mexico to the tune of billions of dollars. Money made illegally in the United States is the greatest source of income in Mexico, greater than the money generated from their petroleum industry or tourism.


You're right Frogger, these people should be forced to put their money in American banks so that when we find out it belongs to an "illegal" we can seize it.

It is not a question of putting their money into American banks. It is about physically removing the money from circulation within the American economy. The money that is sent to Mexico and other Latin American countries is a net loss from the American economy.

Quote:
Mexico is playing a do as I say, not as I do game vis a vis immigration. Mexico whines that the U.S. is being mean by not allowing Mexicans to enter the country whenever they feel like it yet Mexico goes so far as to shoot illegal immigrants entering their country. In the U.S. all public offices except for President and Vice President are open to citizens who have immigrated from other countries. In Mexico naturalized citizens are banned from all public offices, police forces and many other jobs. Until recently higher political offices were open only to people who could prove both their parents and grandparents were Mexican born.

It is time for a bit of tough love in our relations with Mexico. We should tell them to put their house in order and stop depending on the United States to act as their safety valve. When more than ten percent of one nation's citizens escape to a neighboring nation it tells you something about the nation they are leaving.


I can't imagine why anyone would want to leave such a paradise.

You have simply chosen to ignore the actions of the Mexican government as it concerns immigrants, both legal and illegal.


Quote:
On another issue, Praetorian is right. A large part of the problem is caused by the Mexican's unwillingness to assimilate.


Not to mention the problems caused by those who refuse to recognize assimilation when they see it.

I recognize assimilation when I see it. The problem is, I see it so seldomly.
Quote:

When people from other cultures came to the United States it was with the idea of remaining here and becoming 100% Americans. They learned the language, celebrated the holidays, cooked the food and listened to the music of their adopted country.


Right....they ate good American food like sauerkraut, spaghetti, and any number of other foods from other countries which are now considered common American delicasies.

It is not simply a matter of wanting to keep ties to the old country. It is a matter of not wanting to form ties to the new country. Spanish speaking immigrants do not try to learn English at the same rate as those from other countries. You may not like the fact and it may make you uncomfortable but it is true never the less.

Quote:
With Mexicans and other Latin Americans it is different.


You're right, we are treating the Mexicans differently....maybe it's because they had the gall to be from somewhere other than Europe.

Now, who is being racist? If millions of Russians were to enter the country illegally and demand ballots in Russian, send most of their money back to Mother Russia, listen to nothing but Russian radio and watch nothing but Russian t.v., to demand that government workers speak Russian, the response would be the same.

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Rather than wishing to become Americans they wish for Americans to become more Mexican.


Bull. Actually, not bull. It has gone so far as to include celebrating Cinco de Mayo in public schools.

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They do not learn the language.


You and Prae keep repeating this although you never explain why you feel this way. All of the immigrants I had the pleasure to work with were proficient in English to one degree or another, and you have to be pretty jaded not to understand that anyone coming to this country will learn English if only to make their lives easier.

And the vast majority of those I have had dealings with do not speak English. I am pretty sure I have had more contact with Spanish speaking immigrants than you have. The town where I grew up and where I later taught has one of the largest Spanish speaking populations in New York State. I deal with Spanish speaking immigrants on an almost daily basis even today.

Quote:
Most of them have no intention of staying here but only of earning money and then returning to Mexico.


I can't imagine why anyone would feel unwelcome here...after all, we only call them "undesireable" because we like them.

They feel welcome enough to sneak across the border and send their money back to Mexico or Guatemala, or El Salvador, or wherever. One would think that after living here for ten or twenty years they would begin to feel assimilated.

Quote:
They are more intent on La Raza than on being American. They do not attempt to learn the language of the country, instead they listen to their own music, watch their own television stations, speak Spanish when calling businesses on the phone, vote in Spanish and in general act like a foreign invader in the body politic.


::shakes head::

Shaking your head is not a rebuttal.


Quote:
In short, they try to turn the United States into Mexico, a country so bad they chose to leave it rather than stay and try to fix it.


Tell me Frogger, are all immigrants to other countries cowards who are too lazy to improve things in their country of origin, or is it just the Mexicans who deserve your disdain? Were the people who originally settled this country cowards because they fled England rather than work for a better England?
__________________

I feel no distain for legal Mexican or other immigrants. I don't even feel distain for illegal Mexican or other immigrants. It is not a matter of feeling distain. It is a matter of wanting them to enter the country by legal means and to assimilate with the existing culture, not to try to change it to theirs. As I stated above, I would feel the same if the influx was of Russian immigrants or immigrants from any other country.


But it was ever thus, all through my life: whenever I have diverged from custom and principle and uttered a truth, the rule has been that the hearer hadn't strength of mind enough to believe it.---Mark Twain, Autobiography

Morons!

The link is racist and I am not condoning it in any way but the mere fact that such links exist illustrates the frustration many people are feeling over the problem with illegal immigration.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo6CBG02xe8&eurl=