NOW, the rabid man hating feminazis are tring to say an 8.5 month old baby who was either killed or died when the mother was murdered should not be considered when the murder charges are handed out. They say the "fetus" should not be counted,and the suspect, husband Scott Petersen should only be charged with the murder of his pregnant wife , and NOT that of a perfectly formed and viable human being, who happed to be on the wrong side of the fetal wall. This is a sickening, blatent display of political poison. These perverted women insist that this abortion issue is the biggest issue of our time, while it isnt. They force it down our throats every chance they get. They stand up for murders just to make a case for their pet issue, they are sick and twisted. I would think it would be women who demanded justice FOR the baby, not for the killer, what happened to motherly instinc and unconditional love of children? I guess political correctness and political agendas against their rivals haveturned these women into hate filled, shallow shells of their former selves. It is saad.

"If this is murder, well, then any time a late-term fetus is aborted, they could call it murder," Morris County NOW President Mavra Stark -- NO SHIT@!!!!!!!

NOW argues against murder charge for unborn baby (http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/03/04/20/news3-laci.htm)

These people are truly nuts.

Now, look. I know a murderer is not a good person at all, but look at it this way. True, the fetus probably could have lived outside the woman. But was the man really trying to kill the baby as well? Was the baby or the mother the target? The mother. Just because a woman is carrying a baby doesn't mean that if she is killed, she counts as two people. What if they ended up to be unborn twins? Would the guy be charged with triple murder?

borg, do you ever think before you speak, or are you so wrapped up with towing the party line that you automatically oppose the right wing, no matter how much sense they make? Look at it this way, if a guy does a drive by shooting, and he kills who he is aiming for, but in the process kills a little kid walking across the street, is he only charged with the murder of the intended target, or is he responsible for both? And yes, if the woman had twins in the womb, he would be charges with triple murder, the same as if the drive by shooter killed 2 people besides his inteded target in the drive by.

Um...the murder of the child walking across the street would not have been premeditated.

it only takes one premeditated murder to get the death penalty, and if he knew she was pregnant, which I am sure he did, he would know that killing her would kill the baby, which is premeditated on both accounts. Either way, if he did do it, he should be taken out the back door of the courthouse the day of the verdict, and shot.

I believe the average time spent on death row is about 10 years. Not "the day of the verdict".

ya, pretty sad what the liberals have done to the justice system isnt it? Made the cops the villians, made the villians the victims, and made the victims remain victims for life. They made the death penalty into a joke , and made the lawyers rich. Thanks a lot.

I want to get rid of the death penalty, Trav. Jeez.

ya, we know. You want to kill the innocent unborn and protect the scum of the earth death row inmates, we know.

Trav: "Gee, you liberals are dumber than I thought, you don't just want to slow down the process, you want to get rid of it"(better grammar and punctuation added)

I have an idea, lets take all the soldiers and send them through the law system. We'd get accounts of rape, pre-meditated murder, self-defence murder, distribution of illegal narcotics, possesion of illegal narcotics, usage of illegal narcotics, possesion of illegal weapons, conspiracy, treason, etc. Wow, that'd get them all the death penalty or life. Let's join the army borg, we can do anything, only set back is that we become slaves.

Yeah, Trav, don't you know that scum like Scott Peterson deserve to live as much as we do?

You know you are a left winger when you find yourself defending a cold blooded murderer.

You know you are a left winger when you find yourself defending a cold blooded murderer.
I'm not defending him. I think he should get two accounts of life. One pre-meditated, the other for just murder. No death penalty though.

You know you are a left winger when you find yourself defending a cold blooded murderer.
Or possibly a lawyer.

why do you have it out for the soldiers blib, did you try ad get in the army but failed the physical or something? Or did they not take you because you are homosexual? I have never seen someone who hated the soldiers and the military more than you. The sad thing is, they are willing to die to protect your sorry ass. It really is sad.

hehe, thats great borg.

Or did they not take you because you are homosexual?
How utterly ignorant. There is nothing that says a homosexual can't be in the Armed Forces. Also, Blib has said nothing to indicate that he is gay. So please, do us a favor and keep your ignorance to yourself.

theres nothing to say a homo cant be in the military?? oh ya, thats the one thing your boy clinton did for the military, "dont ask dont tell", oh, and cut their budget to crap, thanks Bill! Your a real supporter of the military. I am also glad to see borgs true colors showing up. cant stay in the closet forever.

I am also glad to see borgs true colors showing up.
Huh??
cant stay in the closet forever.
I repeat: Huh??

It's ok, nobody understands him. It's imposible when all he does is spews shit.

ya, you are a beacon of truth blob.

I find it impossible to conceive that whoever killed Laci didn't realize that he would be killing a child too. She was 8 and a half months pregnant for cryin out loud. You know what that looks like right? It's hard to miss.

Absolutely, definitely, that should be counted as a double murder. That's easy. And if Laci was premeditated, then yes, the baby has to be included.

Could you imagine the precedent that would set if that wasn't thought of as a double murder? If a guy did something to an 8 and half month pregnant woman, say poison, or punch in the stomach, and caused her to mis-carry, he'd only get an assault charge. Does that sound like justice?

So what would happen if he just beat her up or something, and the baby died and Laci didn't? Would he just be charged with assault? Pathetic. Basically what NOW wants is for people to be able to kill other people's unborn babies for any reason and not be punished. Sad.

Originally posted by Blibblob
I have an idea, lets take all the soldiers and send them through the law system. We'd get accounts of rape, pre-meditated murder, self-defence murder, distribution of illegal narcotics, possesion of illegal narcotics, usage of illegal narcotics, possesion of illegal weapons, conspiracy, treason, etc. Wow, that'd get them all the death penalty or life. Let's join the army borg, we can do anything, only set back is that we become slaves.

Bliblob you are a VERY disrespectfull person, I am a Vet, And DAMN proud of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From what I've viewed in this forum, Blibb's presence would be as welcome in a platoon as wouild screen doors on a submarine. I don't want him in my U.S. military. Maybe the Swiss would take him....


OH yeah, Blibb....you've just managed to infuriate another Vet.

You guys are just now figuring out that Blib hates any person, place, or thing that has to do with the military?

Well, the military IS an evil, is it not...albeit a necessary one.

The conservative says "The military is perfect anything else would just be anti-american..."

Actually, they say that the military is underbudgeted...

They say it is, but after 9/11, I don't think so. The military is overbudgeted and education is underbudgeted. Coincidence, I DON'T THINK SO. You don't need bigger, better guns, you need more intelligence. People can't hope for a better life if they don't think there is one.

hey moron, a lot of the military budget goes to pay and other benefits for the soldiers, last I heard students didnt get paid, so why cant the education get any better even though they recieve BILLIONS of dollars each year, and it goes up every year? Education is underbudgeted, LOL, so, if we spent as much on education as we do on the military would every student get straight A's? I think not. Its not about money man, all liberals think throwing money at a problem will make it go away. They see the military working and exceling and think its becasue they get a lot of money, they never stop to think its might be the PEOPLE, and not the amount of money involved.

/agree Travh20

Thanks Travh20.
Blibblob sure enjoys his freedoms here in the U.S., but he'll be damned if he'll protect them.

Tell 'em, Travh20.

hey moron, a lot of the military budget goes to pay and other benefits for the soldiers, last I heard students didnt get paid, so why cant the education get any better even though they recieve BILLIONS of dollars each year, and it goes up every year? Education is underbudgeted, LOL, so, if we spent as much on education as we do on the military would every student get straight A's? I think not. Its not about money man, all liberals think throwing money at a problem will make it go away. They see the military working and exceling and think its becasue they get a lot of money, they never stop to think its might be the PEOPLE, and not the amount of money involved.
Right now, it is the money. In a capitalist society, it costs more to get better teachers, they also don't feel like giving it their best if their paycheck is 20,000 a year. Education is not overbudgeted, if it was overbudgeted all kids would have the text books needed, they'd have a least one pencil and some paper for class, they'd have chairs that weren't broken, 20 year old tables that aren't covered in gum, books in the libraries that aren't from 1969, a computer lab in every school(not just the rich ones), computers that didn't crash every 5 seconds, carpets that get cleaned only once a year, bathrooms covered in piss, overflowing garbage cans, and don't forget, teachers that are underpaid. It appears that all that can be fixed with money. One of your least favorite countries in the world has one of the best education systems, Cuba. And your favorite, perfect, country has one of the shittiest. You have college graduates with PHDs, and then you have the adults and middle school and high school children who can't even read and write.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Right now, it is the money. In a capitalist society, it costs more to get better teachers, they also don't feel like giving it their best if their paycheck is 20,000 a year. Education is not overbudgeted, if it was overbudgeted all kids would have the text books needed, they'd have a least one pencil and some paper for class, they'd have chairs that weren't broken, 20 year old tables that aren't covered in gum, books in the libraries that aren't from 1969, a computer lab in every school(not just the rich ones), computers that didn't crash every 5 seconds, carpets that get cleaned only once a year, bathrooms covered in piss, overflowing garbage cans, and don't forget, teachers that are underpaid. It appears that all that can be fixed with money. One of your least favorite countries in the world has one of the best education systems, Cuba. And your favorite, perfect, country has one of the shittiest. You have college graduates with PHDs, and then you have the adults and middle school and high school children who can't even read and write.

Give me a break, the education budget for this country is through the roof. The Prez is asking for 52.1 billion dollars, how on earth is that not enough to teach someone to read and do math? Those should be things that can be taught for a bare minimun of money, or even at home.Where is all the money going? Not only is there 52 billion, the are hundreds of millions in bonds floating around, tell me, where is all this money going? If I see one more school bond initiative on my ballot I am goin gto snap.

As for Cuban schools, where do you get your information? Are you saying they are the best because they brainwash students to hate american capitalist? Here is a quick lesson from a Cuban School.

"OK Class, hre we have 2 plants in out school window, the one on the right will be taken care of by god, the one on the left wil be taken care of by the state, that being us"

the students feed and water their plant, and do nothing for the plant god is supposed to take care of. A week later, gods plant is dead, but the state plant is in full bloom and thriving, the teacher says "OK class, whois going to take care of you, god or the state?"

Devious, sneaky little commies.

As for Cuban schools, where do you get your information? Are you saying they are the best because they brainwash students to hate american capitalist? Here is a quick lesson from a Cuban School.

"OK Class, hre we have 2 plants in out school window, the one on the right will be taken care of by god, the one on the left wil be taken care of by the state, that being us"

the students feed and water their plant, and do nothing for the plant god is supposed to take care of. A week later, gods plant is dead, but the state plant is in full bloom and thriving, the teacher says "OK class, whois going to take care of you, god or the state?"

Devious, sneaky little commies.
Hey, I like that one, that was funny.

Cuba has one of the best because at least EVERYBODY in the country can read and write.(if you can't you get some punishments untill you do, heh, thats wrong, but at least they can read. In the US you get punished, but you still wont be taught to read.)

Yes, the School system has a lot of money... Talk to a teacher.

School taxes are plenty high, and they're always screaming for more. Perhaps some consolidation of school districts is in order. The blending of City and County government offices & services is saving some areas money, just by eliminating the duplication of services One city may have 25 (or more) school districts. Each school district has a huge overhead of various administrators, none of whom come cheap. Why staff so many districts with identical personnell? An empire builders' dreamland. Every executive position comes with its own little bureaucratic money pit. That's why they're screaming for money, most of it's long gone before the classroom even sees it.

Uh, thank you...

Originally posted by Blibblob
Hey, I like that one, that was funny.

Cuba has one of the best because at least EVERYBODY in the country can read and write.(if you can't you get some punishments untill you do, heh, thats wrong, but at least they can read. In the US you get punished, but you still wont be taught to read.)

Yes, the School system has a lot of money... Talk to a teacher.

Ya, everyone in cuba can read, and everyone in Iraq voted for sadaam, whatever man. And as far as teachers go, I am sick of hearing them whine about pay, they make more than I do, and I work a lot harder then them, you dont hear me bitching. THey do a job just like everyone else. Seems they are more interested in picketing and protesting than teaching. Everyoen hears all their life how hard the poor teachers have it, so why do people go into teaching expecting some great pay anyway? Thats like those idiots who join the army and quit when a war comes around saying they didnt think they would have to fight in the army.

And as far as teachers go, I am sick of hearing them whine about pay, they make more than I do, and I work a lot harder then them, you dont hear me bitching.
Sure you work a lot harder than them...

Originally posted by Blibblob
Sure you work a lot harder than them...


I do. I know I work a lot harder than you too. Do you even know what a hydrogapher is or does smart guy?

I've not a clue what a "hydrographer" is or does. The word is not in the dictionary, thesaurus, or encyclopedia. Enlighten us, if you would.

A hydrographer may perform the following tasks:

* select, install, maintain and repair instruments which monitor water levels, rainfall, sediments, etc.
* design, construct, install and maintain civil works associated with water-related projects and activities (including dams, weirs, bridges, irrigation projects, water supply schemes, flood protection works, warning services and marine facilities)
* compile navigational charts and other data for the safe navigation of Australian waters
* collect sample data at various locations to confirm data gathered by automatic monitors
* use underwater acoustic equipment to establish and monitor tidal data, outline coastlines, measure seabed depths, and search for underwater obstacles in oceans or lakes
* prepare data for use by other professionals
* prepare reports on sites, as well as on data collection and quality.

Hydrographers work in offices and in the field (on land, underground, or in ships, boats or planes).


Teachers still deserve to get paid more. Teaching is a harder job than you think.

Teaching is no picnic. No argument there. After retiring from the Army, one of the new career choices I explored was teaching. Wound up in a middle school, inside the San Antonio city limits. Wow...was that ever an eye opener. Took the job during the Xmas break, left the job at the end of the school year. That was enough torture, thank you. Playing Army was much easier, even when I was a classroom instructor...teaching soldier-students.

I, too, used to teach junior high. I quit because it was too much work for the money. I'm not saying that anyone works harder or easier than a teacher, but those of you who think that teaching is easy are ignorant.

Originally posted by Travh20
Ya, everyone in cuba can read, and everyone in Iraq voted for sadaam, whatever man. And as far as teachers go, I am sick of hearing them whine about pay, they make more than I do, and I work a lot harder then them, you dont hear me bitching. THey do a job just like everyone else. Seems they are more interested in picketing and protesting than teaching. Everyoen hears all their life how hard the poor teachers have it, so why do people go into teaching expecting some great pay anyway? Thats like those idiots who join the army and quit when a war comes around saying they didnt think they would have to fight in the army.

Yup. Ignorance at work. I substituted at private schools for a while myself. It was NOT easy and I fully acknowledge I don't know the half of what full-time public school teachers had to do. Teachers bust their butts for a below average salary. Worse than that, they don't get much respect for it. Teachers in this country get less respect than teachers in almost ANY other country....even in 3rd world nations.

But the reason we should pay teachers MUCH more is mostly because its a very important position, not just because its hard work. Don't forget, teachers are not only raising, but also TEACHING our children for over a quarter of their waking hours. And how are they rewarded? With less pay than a day-care provider.

where did I ever say teaching was easy? All I said was that it wasnt as hard as what I do. There are lots of jobs harder than what I do also, does that make my job easy? You all need to relax a bit, and give the sacred cow a rest. No one forces people to teach, you all act like they reluctantly do it all for the good of society. Teachers average around 40,000 a year, if not more. Thats good money. I am not saying they dont deserve it, or that they dont deserve more, all I am saying is that we can let up on the teachers need more money thing, I heard that more going through school than anything else, including education related topics. We all need better pay.

To say teachers are more deserving of respect or better pay than anyone else is idiotic. We as a country kiss the backsides of teachers everyday, with awards and all kinds of incentives, what exactly do teachers want, a million dollars a year and free housing? You think they would know what they were getting into by now.

Trav's right, for once. Teachers averaged a gross of $41,575 for the 99-00 school year. Still not enough. That should not be their average gross pay, rather, that should be their average net pay. They deserve it.

ya, I deserve it too, but I dont have a million people saying how much I do. I make do with my pay, and work hard, and provide for my family, I am sick of this gosh darned entitlement driven society who think they are owed things they are not, the teachers have been convinced they are worth more then they really are, and they are not backing down. When you average 40,000$ a year, and take 3 months off, thats pretty good.

My mother is paid 32,000 a year, she has a masters degree in VE, and a bachleors in Gifted, this is her third year teaching, and she gets paid just a little bit more than a teacher without the masters, in their first year. Teachers don't really make 40,000, some make 50,000 and the rest make 30,000. The average is about to drop, a lot, as the older teachers leave and all that is left is first year teachers. They don't get 3 months off, they get 2, and quite often, none. They have to be back in school early, they leave after us, and most have to take even shittier summer jobs to pay the rent.
the teachers have been convinced they are worth more then they really are, and they are not backing down.
They are worth a hell of a lot more than they are paid. Middle school teachers usually get to school at around 8, and leave around 8. Then they get home and grade even more stuff, then they get bitchy phone calls from the parents of kids who are flunking because they don't do shit. In Florida we are having even more budget cuts, right after the smaller class sizes bill was passed. Now how the hell is that supposed to work. Teachers get to loose their planning period, and have to spend more time doing that at home, when they aren't paid at all.

break out the freaking violins, if they dont like it why dont they do something else?

Alright, the US's education system is already horrible. Let's eliminate it.

Originally posted by Travh20
break out the freaking violins, if they dont like it why dont they do something else?
Who would teach? What would stop every teacher from quitting? Then we'd have an entire country of little Travs. ::rimshot::

Who would teach? What would stop every teacher from quitting? Then we'd have an entire country of little Travs. ::rimshot::
hehe

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Who would teach? What would stop every teacher from quitting? Then we'd have an entire country of little Travs. ::rimshot::


There is a little thing unkown to you and your ilk called dedication that would keep the teachers who dont eternally bitch about pay around to teach the kids. What do you think keeps soldiers in the military? It sure as hell isnt the pay. For a bunch of liberals and communists you sure are wrapped up in money.

Since this is a free capitalist society(well, supposed to be, more of a regulated capitalist) it is centered around money. IDIOT.
What do you think keeps soldiers in the military?
Brainwashing. Same way spiritual leaders got peasants to fight, "you die in battle, you go straight to heavan", not in a single holy book.

There is a little thing unkown to you and your ilk called dedication that would keep the teachers who dont eternally bitch about pay around to teach the kids.
There's also a think called intelligence that will cause them all to quit until pay got better. They cant strike, so laiezz-faire isn't gonna work.

In certain states, they can.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Since this is a free capitalist society(well, supposed to be, more of a regulated capitalist) it is centered around money. IDIOT.

Brainwashing. Same way spiritual leaders got peasants to fight, "you die in battle, you go straight to heavan", not in a single holy book.


There's also a think called intelligence that will cause them all to quit until pay got better. They cant strike, so laiezz-faire isn't gonna work.

Blibblob, yuo are a hypocrit, this whole time you have been living in communist heaven, preaching its virtues, now all of a sudden you are a realist when it comes to money in a capatilist society. I fyou think american soldiers stay in the military to die and go to heaven you are a bigger idiot than any of us thought, thats your muslim al queada heros you are thinking of You are a very confused little boy, you take everything al quead a does and believe it is the US doing it, and make al quead into the good guys who give millions to the poor and are not religious fnantics.

Blibblobofshit, yuo are a f*cking hypocrit, this whole time you have been living in communist heaven, preaching its virtues, now all of a sudden you are a realist when it comes to money in a capatilist society.
What? Because I'm a communist I can't know anything about the current economic system? I probably know more about capitalism than you do.

I fyou think american soldiers stay in the military to die and go to heaven you are a bigger idiot than any of us thought, thats your muslim al queada heros you are thinking of You are a very confused little boy, you take everything al quead a does and believe it is the US doing it, and make al quead into the good guys who give millions to the poor and are not religious fnantics. Please IM me with your address so I can come ove r and beat some sense into your little punk ass.
First of all, all I did was related ancient brainwashing to modern brainwashing. They all brainwashed soldiers, and a long time ago it was because you got special recomendation for fighting for your "god". Second off, it was never in the Quaran that if you die in battle you go straight to heaven, nor is there anything in there about 9 virgins to pleasure you. That was used purely by intelligent generals exploiting people through their religion. Al Qaeda gave no money to the poor. Bin Laden did, he aslo funded Al Qaeda. You are so drunk on rage you can't even separate a person from the society he funds. Exactly what your government wanted.

Originally posted by Blibblob
What? Because I'm a communist I can't know anything about the current economic system? I probably know more about capitalism than you do.


First of all, all I did was related ancient brainwashing to modern brainwashing. They all brainwashed soldiers, and a long time ago it was because you got special recomendation for fighting for your "god". Second off, it was never in the Quaran that if you die in battle you go straight to heaven, nor is there anything in there about 9 virgins to pleasure you. That was used purely by intelligent generals exploiting people through their religion. Al Qaeda gave no money to the poor. Bin Laden did, he aslo funded Al Qaeda. You are so drunk on rage you can't even separate a person from the society he funds. Exactly what your government wanted.

Ya Ya Blbilbob, we all know you know more about everything than anyone on this board. And now you are seperating Bin laden from al queada? They are the same thing!!!!! WTF? Who do you think started al quead? So is George bush waging war on iraq (or waged war I should say) and not the US? man you re sick and twisted.

Hmm, I need a moron translator.

All right:
Moronic Post Translator (Beta):
To translate:
Ya Ya Blbilbob, we all know you know more about everything than anyone on this board. And now you are seperating Bin laden from al queada? They are the same thing!!!!! WTF? Who do you think started al quead? So is George bush waging war on iraq (or waged war I should say) and not the US? man you re sick and twisted.
Translation: I think you are arrogant. Bin laden is exactly the same as a large Muslim terrorist organization. He also started al Quead. Bush wages war on his own country or Iraq. I also cannot string together coherent sentences.

Thats ingenious. We needed that a long time ago. Now I can answer.

I think you are arrogant
Oh come on, we needed the moron translator for you.

Bin laden is exactly the same as a large Muslim terrorist organization. He also started al Quead.
Wow, one manned terrorist organization.

Bush wages war on his own country.
YAY

I also cannot string together coherent sentences.
We already knew that.

do really think bin laden and al qeada have no connection, no wonder you couldnt see a lin between iraq and al queada.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
All right:
Moronic Post Translator (Beta):
To translate:

Translation: I think you are arrogant. Bin laden is exactly the same as a large Muslim terrorist organization. He also started al Quead. Bush wages war on his own country or Iraq. I also cannot string together coherent sentences.

ROFL! You guys are killin me:D :D :D

do really think bin laden and al qeada have no connection, no wonder you couldnt see a lin between iraq and al queada.
The guy just funds it. Al Qaeda can't be a one man organization.

ROFL! You guys are killin me:D:D:D
Must be slow and painful without the gun... AHHH, SIDE CRAMPS!!

duck season

hardy har har, its not funny anymore, learn when you ahve reached your peak and stop

Oh, but nobody is near their peak... :D Trav seems to be at the bottom, learn to climb man!

blib, you havent even reached the bottom of the hill so I wouldnt talk punk, go back to home ec and learn to sew on a button kid.

uh is it just me or did this start as a Laci Peterson thread? i know i'm new and all and don't want to come off naive....


but just a question (one tiny question)

if i understand correctly, in the state of CA a person who murders a pregnant woman can be charged with double homicide. the baby can be included according to the statute.

so i guess my question to these women who don't want to include the baby in the charges is why are you arguing with a law that's already in place? instead of arguing for this one case, why not lobby to change the statute?

i don't know.....just a thought......i'm bored and ready to go home!

You're not home already? Anyway, here at Allforums, about 1/2way through the first reply, threads start to go off-topic.

So, on to your question. They have to win the murder case by any means necessary. They can't ask to change a law in the middle of a murder case, that'd require a whole other case to declare a law unconstitutional or whatever. So they have to argue against the law first, then if they want to, have the law changed later. It's pretty much the inverse of ex post facto.

yeah that's basically what i'm saying.....only....not.....

no i'm not at home. i'm actually at work. i work for an attorney who is out of town at the moment and things are a tad slow around here.....

Just to be clear here, it was only one NOW chapter president who made these comments. I don't believe that her position is being endorsed by other chapters or by NOW at the national level.

Two points:

The fetus was viable. If she had been two weeks pregnant, the issue would be different.

Laci's choice was to carry her pregnancy to term.