http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395663359&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

A guy converted to Christianity & now faces death under Islamic law.

It's interesting how muslims constantly preach that the violent, medieval & intolerant nature of islam is inconsistent with real islam and a media distortion, yet all we see time & time again are plain examples of how truly backwards & intolerant islam is.

If diplomatic efforts to save this man fail, should the Bush Administration intervene? Should our troops on the ground take physical custody of him? Would that expose our liberation as a sham if we don't respect their laws?

Anyone?

I don't think we can intervene, wouldn't that violate the starfleet prime directive of non interference in backward cultures?

Ahh, yes. Islam is the religion of peace. We probably should remain in diplomatic circles in this stiuation.

Goes to show you that even the US Army can't reform Islamics. Even the ones we count as friends are brainwashed.

It is like a mental disease that spreads like a computer virus and once you get it you can't get rid of it. Mohammad was the first and best mental virus writer.

From the Wikipedia article on the Afghan Constitution:

The Constitution describes Islam as its sacred and state religion. A system of civil law is described, but no law may contradict the beliefs and provisions of Islam. It was widely reported that Sharia law is not specifically mentioned, but in fact Hanafi jurisprudence is one of the six branches of Sharia law. Moreover, concessions are made to Shia jurisprudence in cases arising strictly between Shi'ites.

Followers of other religions are "free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites" within the limits of the law. There is no mention of freedom of conscience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Afghanistan#Civil_and_human_rights

So I guess it's OK to be of another faith than Islam, just so long as you don't convert away from Islam.

By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer 44 minutes ago

KABUL, Afghanistan - Senior Muslim clerics demanded Thursday that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to Western pressure and frees him, they will incite people to "pull him into pieces."
-------------------------------------
I think he converted about 20 years ago. Isn't there a statue of limitations?

Notice that these clerics say they will incite people to pull him to pieces. The people are the Islamic army that can be called into service in a moments notice. Here, it is against the law to incite people into criminal acts.

They could be concerned that the US might convert some of their people away from the "religion of peace and love"


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060323/ap_on_re_as/afghan_christian_convert

Michelle Malkin wrote an article about this.

This is the thing that angers me so much about Muslim governments throughout the Middle East, the same god-damn people who insure that THEY can worship as they please have no trouble denying that right to others.

I hope that when those who deny others the same rights that they enjoy die and go to hell, they get the exact same treatment that those people had meted out to others.


DAMMIT!

Charles Darwin would be fascinated by Muslims. Here we have a religion that will, if unchecked, will kill off all the members of other religions, ensuring its own survival and supremacy. The evolution of religion is happening before our very eyes. Survival of the fittest at its best!

Death for converting? and I thought he had done something really serious like make a cartoon.

These arab nations & their religions are a joke. It's like the part of the world that time forgot - they are still living in 500 AD, except they have some of our inventions like phones & TV's and cars. They'd be living in caves if they had no access to the stuff invented in the western civilized world.

They'd be living in caves if they had no access to the stuff invented in the western civilized world.

They WOULD be living in caves if we could find an alternative to oil, dammit.

"It's interesting how muslims constantly preach that the violent, medieval & intolerant nature of islam is inconsistent with real islam..."


Last time I heard THAT wuz from some Texas yahoo in the Oval Office, tellin' Muslims around the world what the "true" interpretation of the Koran is...



Shortly before or after, he started rainin' BOMBS on his new converts...



"Fuel me ONCE, shame on you..."--George Dubbya Bush

It's interesting how muslims constantly preach that the violent, medieval & intolerant nature of islam is inconsistent with real islam and a media distortion, yet all we see time & time again are plain examples of how truly backwards & intolerant islam is.

It's easy enough for you to say that, but can you really defend it? Feel free to step up in the Israelie Apartheid thread.

It's defended by plain facts - read the news - there are many examples every day

Of course, of course.... chicken...

It's a bit retarded of you to ask for evidence - when the thread was started with evidence.

I'm not asking for evidence, I am asking you to join the thread in which I make the argument that Islam is in fact a religion of peace.

It's a religion of peace apart from the parts of it that are violent.

A cleric (preacher) calling for the death of a convert isn't a poster for peace.

Problem is this cleric is not unusual for Islam. Where are the voices decrying this stuff?

There are plenty of them, they get passed over by reporters who are anxious to make Islam out to be the killer in your backyard. All to sell stories...

unlikely

You don't believe that there's selective reporting out there that makes Islam out to be such a terrible evil?

*shakes head*

And people wonder where critical thinking has gone in this country.

I think there is reporting of events. The media didn't make up the fact that a muslim cleric in Afghanistan has said if the government don't execute the convert then the people should.

The media didn't make up the rioting over cartoons.

The media don't make up the other 1001 death threats.

I never said Islam was a terrible evil - I said Islamic countries are backward to the point of being medieval.

Sure the media reports news, that's why it is the media. If muslim countries don't want negative news then they should stop giving the media negative news to report. These aren't isolated events lost in a sea of good news - it's a core problem, not a fringe activity as the apologists like yourself would have people believe.

If it walks like a duck then it's a duck.

By your logic a child molester that lead a great life helping others until he molested a child and got himself in the papers is being miss-represented by the media.

So - keep *shaking your head* - eventually you might dislodge something & shake in some common sense.

Islam is a religion that is going through many changes and upheavals. Lots of good events, and lots of bad events have been happening. The media decides to selectively report death threats and riots and conveniently forgets to mention the dialogue going on amongst clerics who want to make Islam more accessible to Westerners. Or the attempts to re-interpret western economics to bring it in line with Islamic ideals of brotherhood and charity. Liberal movements within Islam are emphasizing the roles of Islamic women as masters of the house's finances, as well as advocating a more critical interpretation of Islamic holy books. Some are even going as far as advocating total equality between men and women.

If muslim countries don't want negative news then they should stop giving the media negative news to report.

Bullshit. There are 1.4 billion Muslims on this planet. Please allow that number to sink into your head for a bit. Over a sixth of the world's population. Every piece of negative news about the US, and there is a lot of it out there, doesn't make you believe the US is a bad place, does it?

By your logic a child molester that lead a great life helping others until he molested a child and got himself in the papers is being miss-represented by the media.

Of course he is. People are always willing to attribute the worst to a human being. A genetic predisposition to pedophilia, and a moment of weakness are all it takes to make national news.

I believe the US does some bad things sure, and they get reported just fine & dandy.

Of course not every muslim is militant or violent, far from it - but you should ponder one of the comments you made

"Some are even going as far as advocating total equality between men and women"

Some are even going as far? Big whoop for them. And you say they are not backward?

So long as muslim countries keep on with the death if you don't agree bullshit then educated people around the world are going to draw one conclusion & not care to delve any deeper.

The image of Islam is 100% in muslims hands - it's not my responsibility to waste my time finding the unreported gems of civility. There are plenty of high ranking muslims & muslim leaders out there around the world that can make strong bold statements that would get press attention.

Don't blame the press. They report news - not hidden away kumbya bullshit & Islamic nations are one hell of a news pipeline with the shit they pull on a daily basis.

And you say they are not backward?

No. I have said in the other thread that Islam as a religion is still in the Middle Ages. Islam is however, a religion of peace.

The image of Islam is 100% in muslims hands

No. An image is something another sees. You can have no control over it. You can attempt to change it, but it is ultimately another's decision to alter the image. Anybody who has struggled socially in high school should know this.

it's not my responsibility to waste my time finding the unreported gems of civility

It most certainly is. Before you go running your mouth off about other people, you should at least make a good faith effort to get the whole story.

Don't blame the press. They report news

Your problem is that you equate news with truth.

I equate news with events.

Look at the news - it's a mix of science / politics & world events.

The civilized world contributes news to all 3. The muslim world provides news in only world events & it's almost exclusively negative. When they start contributing to this planet then they will have all kinds of news and it will adjust perceptions.

It certainly is not my responsibility to go on a treasure hunt. I'm not stupid - I know 99% of muslims are decent people, but that doesn't change the reality that muslim countries are basically backward, think the world should bow down to them & basically contribute nothing much.

Oh I forgot they invented something 2000 years ago. The alphabet or something like that. :rolleyes:

The muslim world provides news in only world events & it's almost exclusively negative.

As I said, movements within Islam are aiming to once again turn Islam into a cultural and economic center. Movements that do not involve killing people.

Oh I forgot they invented something 2000 years ago. The alphabet or something like that.

Stop using it for awhile so you can get some kind of grasp on what that particular contribution to humanity did for us.

It's easy to be cynical about inventions like the number system and the alphabet. But at the time, Europe was in the dark ages. If it weren't for the Islamic Empires holding the torch for human achievement, such advances might not have been made for thousands of years.

Yeah they were great up until 2000 years ago - Bravo for that.

As I said, movements within Islam are aiming to once again turn Islam into a cultural and economic center. Movements that do not involve killing people.

I look forward to their success in that, afterall success is what they are good at.

Not two thousand years ago. one thousand years ago. Prepare for some historical ownage.

Ok 1000 years ago. Who cares?

They were fantastic up until 1000 years ago, then they stood still.

Man if you were a muslim it'd make ya proud. What a list of achievements. Impressive.

Lets face it - your argument has withered & died.

Because of barbarian invaders from the north. Conquistadores from Spain, Britain, France and Germany all carved up the great Islamic empires, destroying their unity, economic power, and rendering the Middle East once again into a land of dust. That is why Radical Islam has arised. Out of a backlash against the West for the often brutal conquest of the peaceful caliphates.

Yeah history sucks.

Excuses, especially ones from 1000 years ago, are just bullshit talking.

Block it out all you want, hold your hands to your ears, complain bitterly, but you cannot argue rationally about this.

Here I offer you an opportunity to debate and challenge yourself to re-open your mind, and this is all you can do. Very well.

Challenge myself?

You act like you got some gems of wisdom to impart. You don't.

You state the obvious and try to claim it's got deep meaning.

My argument on this issue has been extremely rational & what's more it makes certain sense.

Bullshit. I offer you historical argument and sociological background and you dismiss my arguments as excuses. You obviously do not wish to argue about this, and will continue to waffle no matter what I say. All you want is a platform on which to post all the vitriol you want against people you refuse to understand.

It could be said that the Arab world has not contributed much at all since the advent of Islam. They've been otherwise occupied.

You mean since the decline of Islam. Before the decline, Islam contributed much to human progress in all fields.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Bullshit. I offer you historical argument and sociological background and you dismiss my arguments as excuses. You obviously do not wish to argue about this, and will continue to waffle no matter what I say. All you want is a platform on which to post all the vitriol you want against people you refuse to understand.

No you offer wishy washy stuff that is beyond obvious and you seem to believe that it imparts some kind of outstanding wisdom.

As for waffling - you are the king at that.

Once you are beaten in an argument you seem to always take the line of believing that nobody is willing to debate with you & that the person cannot comprehend your higher wisdom.

Oh please. All I asked you to do is join the one already in progress, and you seem to be totally uninterested in it.

Wishy washy? Higher wisdom? Hardly. I was trying to rehash my points in the other thread.

I've admitted defeat before. But I know when I am wasting my time.

A Few Questions:

There are today over 1. 5 billion Muslims in the world coming as they are from diverse racial, ethnic, and religious backgrounds. Why did such a huge mass of humanity embrace a faith which allegedly teaches such crude notions? Why did they forgo their allegedly superior beliefs and practices?

Newspapers in Great Britain report that an increasingly large number of men and women are converting to Islam in Great Britain in spite of the extremely negative publicity against Islam. The irony is that the majority of those who embrace Islam are women, despite the fact that the media project them as the most disadvantaged in Islam. Whose sword is driving them to join the fold of Islam?

How do we explain the fact that Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world in spite of the horrendously negative image of Islam and Muslims that is often projected?

This is a quote form the Quran: [Say, ‘Now the truth has come from your Lord: Let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so’] (Al-Kahf 17: 29).

Do you think it is reasonable for a muslim cleric to call for the death of somebody who converts to another religion?

There are a lot of muslims in the world agreed, and in that sense Islam must have many things that are positive otherwise people wouldn't sign up - but what about this death edict?

There are today over 1. 5 billion Muslims in the world coming as they are from diverse racial, ethnic, and religious backgrounds.[/b]

How does a group of people of one religion have diverse religious background? BTW- that statistic is incorrect.

Why did such a huge mass of humanity embrace a faith which allegedly teaches such crude notions? Why did they forgo their allegedly superior beliefs and practices?

In Islam, polygamy is practiced, leading to an enormity of children. Modern medical advances, oil money, and transportation have allowed populations to explode all over the globe, and more so in the Islamic world. No one is saying that the reason there are so many Muslims is because of conversion.

The irony is that the majority of those who embrace Islam are women, despite the fact that the media project them as the most disadvantaged in Islam. Whose sword is driving them to join the fold of Islam?

Generally you see more women in religious congregations than men.

How do we explain the fact that Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world in spite of the horrendously negative image of Islam and Muslims that is often projected?

Because the massive dissemination of information flying all over the globe, and massive population growth, of course it is going to grow. In the places where it is widely practiced and where the population is exploding greatly it is not presented with a negative image. Your point?

Of course its unreasonable and wrong. As it is stated in the Quran: [Say, ‘Now the truth has come from your Lord: Let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so’] (Al-Kahf 17: 29). I disagree with any killing that is not justified and in this case murdering this convert is undoubtedly unjustified. Its the regime of Afganistan and not Islam that is ordering the killing of this convert. Its not Islam that is backwards but its the government running the Afganistan. I think in every religon you have people who misuse and in the case of Islam the people running the goverment are misusing Islam.

How does a group of people of one religion have diverse religious background? BTW- that statistic is incorrect.



In Islam, polygamy is practiced, leading to an enormity of children. Modern medical advances, oil money, and transportation have allowed populations to explode all over the globe, and more so in the Islamic world. No one is saying that the reason there are so many Muslims is because of conversion.



Generally you see more women in religious congregations than men.



Because the massive dissemination of information flying all over the globe, and massive population growth, of course it is going to grow. In the places where it is widely practiced and where the population is exploding greatly it is not presented with a negative image. Your point?

Your supposed answers really do not answer the questions at all. Polygamy in Islam is rarely practiced except for hardline countries. In Frace and Britian, the majority of muslim converts are women. You try to aim the growth of Islam at polygamy when however its really the people that are converting to Islam that make it the fastest growing religon. Why is my statistic wrong? Would you prefer 1.3 billion muslims?

Of course its unreasonable and wrong. As it is stated in the Quran: [Say, ‘Now the truth has come from your Lord: Let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so’] (Al-Kahf 17: 29). I disagree with any killing that is not justified and in this case murdering this convert is undoubtedly unjustified. Its the regime of Afganistan and not Islam that is ordering the killing of this convert. Its not Islam that is backwards but its the government running the Afganistan. I think in every religon you have people who misuse and in the case of Islam the people running the goverment are misusing Islam.

Well I'm glad to hear you say that.

Actually though the government in Afghanistan doesn't want to execute this guy. The claims by the clerics is direct from the Koran

Your supposed answers really do not answer the questions at all.

Yes they do, the major cause for mass explosion of Muslim populations comes as a result of oil money flowing into the region, religious polygamy, and modern medical advances. You got the population of Islam slightly enlarged and made it seem like everyone joining the religion is a convert, why?

Polygamy in Islam is rarely practiced except for hardline countries.

And these hardline countries are? See, we must know what these "hardline countries" are so we may examine their population, as well as their population in relation to Islam as a whole.

In Frace and Britian, the majority of muslim converts are women.

So? France and Britain's Muslim populations combined fail to reach even 10 million. Not being an expert on psychology, I cannot give the specific details of why females are more often to stay/convert to a religion, but it is so.

You try to aim the growth of Islam at polygamy when however its really the people that are converting to Islam that make it the fastest growing religon.

Show us.

Why is my statistic wrong?

Because it is the incorrect number....
(Your second figure was correct)

I cannot give the specific details of why females are more often to stay/convert to a religion, but it is so.

Islam means "submission". This appeals to many women who desire that kind of life. Lots of women find the men in their lives to be unsatisfactory, and choose a life of submission to God as an alternative.

Islam also appeals to many black men who are attracted to Islam's core tenet of brotherhood, and who are perhaps distrustful of a religion run by white people.

Islam means "submission". This appeals to many women who desire that kind of life. Lots of women find the men in their lives to be unsatisfactory, and choose a life of submission to God as an alternative.

Islam also appeals to many black men who are attracted to Islam's core tenet of brotherhood, and who are perhaps distrustful of a religion run by white people.

None of which are any kinds of reasons worth talking about. Basically you say it appeals to insecure women & racist black men. Even I would give Islam more credit than that.

You read too much into my words, Drew.

I can only read what you write

You read exactly what you want to read. The rest, you make up. That is the way of the world.

Case Dropped Against Afghan Christian
Afghan Court Drops Case Against Man Who Faced Possible Execution for Converting to Christianity

POLICHARKI, Afghanistan Mar 26, 2006 (AP)— An Afghan court has dismissed case against a man who converted from Islam to Christianity for lack of evidence, an official said Sunday.

The court, and Afghan President Hamid Karzai, had been under intense international pressure to drop the case against Abdul Rahman, who faced a possible death sentence for his public conversion.

Some Islamic clerics had called for his execution, saying Rahman would face danger from his countrymen if he were released.

On Sunday, he was moved to a notorious maximum-security prison outside Kabul that is also home to hundreds of Taliban and al-Qaida militants. The move to Policharki Prison came after detainees threatened his life at an overcrowded police holding facility in central Kabul, a court official said on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the media.

Gen. Shahmir Amirpur, who is in charge of Policharki, confirmed the move and said Rahman had also been begging his guards to provide him with a Bible.

Source:here. (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1769307)

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.03.26.KeepingUpAppear-X.gif

Islam means "submission". This appeals to many women who desire that kind of life. Lots of women find the men in their lives to be unsatisfactory, and choose a life of submission to God as an alternative.[/b]

That may solve some cases for Islamic conversion stories, but I was referencing religion in general.

Islam means "submission"heh...theres a muslim meeting house in the area with the phrase "happiness is submission to god" It has been vadalized many times to:

happiness is submission to godzilla
happiness is submission to godot

Islam means "submission". This appeals to many women who desire that kind of life. Lots of women find the men in their lives to be unsatisfactory, and choose a life of submission to God as an alternative.

.

Here is a recent Muslim convert, she will do anything for love.

Woman held in Australian bomb plot

SYDNEY, March 26 (UPI) -- An Australian woman was being held Sunday on charges of plotting a public bombing, while her lawyer is seeking a psychiatric evaluation.

Jill Courtney, 26, was arrested in Sydney Friday night by New South Wales and Australian Federal Police, and charged with conspiracy to murder, and conspiracy to cause explosives to be placed in or near a public place between July 1 last year and Saturday.

Police claim Courtney, a Muslim convert, had a relationship with jailed killer Hussan Kalache and agreed to the bomb plot at his request. Kalache allegedly told Courtney if she carried out her mission to bomb a public place in Sydney, he would marry her, Australia's Sunday Mail newspaper reported.

Her lawyer, Adam Houda asked that his client be assessed by a psychiatrist before Monday's first court appearance, The Australian newspaper said.

"There is a little concern about her mental health," Houda told the court.

No target had been selected for the attack and no explosives were found, the newspaper said.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20060326-09522300-bc-australia-bombplot.xml

Abdul Rahman's case has been handed back to the attorney-general because of gaps in the evidence, an official said.

The decision to release Mr Rahman came amid mounting international criticism over the issue.

Mr Rahman, a Christian for 16 years, was charged with rejecting Islam and potentially faced the death penalty.

Afghanistan's legal system is built on Islamic Sharia law, and Mr Rahman could have faced execution if he had refused to renounce Christianity.

The Afghan government has come under considerable domestic pressure over the case, says the BBC's Sanjoy Majumder in Kabul.

We're going to stand firm for the principle that religious freedom and freedom of religious conscience need to be upheld

More than a thousand protesters took to the streets in the northern city of Mazar-e-Sharif on Monday morning.

They demanded that Mr Rahman be tried and executed for converting to Christianity.

With chants of "Death to Bush!", they warned the international community to keep off the case.

Afghanistan has an Islamic constitution which must be respected, they said.


And when the justice system speaks, the moronic barbarians takes to the streets demanding his execution and blaming Bush. Wow, who'd had though that would happen??? It's shocking how far away these guys are from our way of thinking and living.
I wouldn't want to be that guy when he gets released, I heard an afghan being quoted that they[the mob] would "tear him in a thousand pieces"... :eek:

The problem is probably not Islam though on reflection. It's the country they live in - low education standards & a society easily stirred up. If ya keep em stirred up over unimportant stuff then they'll never get chance to focus on the important stuff.

There are plenty of muslims in the US and you never really ever hear of them getting all worked up & baying for blood.

The guy was released and now is apparently in a civilized part of the world (Italy)

Muslim clerics called Rahman's release a "betrayal of Islam" and have threatened violent protests in response.

You would think that muslim clerics had a pretty good grasp of what Islam is all about? Interesting that they always threaten "violent" protests.

Yeah, it's pretty sad.

Indeed. That's just the religion of "love and peace" for you! I'm so sick of muslim clerics inciting violence in the name of religion! Perhaps a few hundred years of isolation from the west whom they hate so much would do them good!

Elp, would you care to continue the debate over on the Israelie Apartheid thread where I argue that Islam is a religion of peace? Seems old-reb has lost the fight in him.

Not really - because I don't really disagree! Religion and religious texts can be interpreted in many ways, depends on the clerics really. Islam is in a bad way these days because of moronic clerics are taking advantace of religion.
Would be exactly if western clergy did the same thing with the old testement, but in the West no one would take them seriously.

Why is it that US troops have to be the worlds 'police force'.Any country in the world that is governed by religious law is a dangerous thing,should it be Christian,Muslim,or other.Does the US support this regime.

Who else is it going to be? The U.N isn't really a polic force. After what happening in the world today, you really cant say that the UN is doing their job. America has the power and strength to be a police force. However, there more like crooked cops.

I mentioned the reasons for this in the past, but anyway...

Reason why Muslims who convert to another religion are killed:
1. To filter: Those who convert to Islam should know that that's their final choice, Islam doesn't tolerate religion tourists
2. To filter again: Muslims should be ones who have strong faith in their religion, not the weak ones, you should think well before wanting to convert.
3. [i forgot]

Maybe most of you see Islam as "backwards" because you don't know the reasons behind certain actions that seem barbaric to you.

1. To filter: Those who convert to Islam should know that that's their final choice, Islam doesn't tolerate religion tourists
There is a very big difference between not tolerating a convert, and killing him off!

2. To filter again: Muslims should be ones who have strong faith in their religion, not the weak ones, you should think well before wanting to convert.
And how about if a person is born into Islam, and when he/she grows up tohave a mind of his/her own and wants to convert? You didn't have a chocie back then and now you never can, because a radical clerics and his insane congregation will surely be ready to destroy you - angry mob style!


Maybe most of you see Islam as "backwards" because you don't know the reasons behind certain actions that seem barbaric to you.

They don't just seem barbaric to "us"(whoever that is). They ARE barbaric! Don't tell me it's not backwards and barbaric to kill someone for converting - even if there is a God up there, he'll work it out when the convert comes around. Surely, he doesn't want some insane cleric to handle His matters.

Part of the problem is the fact that there is no true heirarchy in Islam. Any Tom, Dick, or Ibraham can simply call himself a cleric (never herself a cleric, God forbid) and if he can round up enough followers say any off the wall thing he wants and have people ready to act on it.

There are no Popes, Bishops, even formally instituted Priests. There is no final authority. It is like some snake handling little congregation in an Appalaichian hollow where anyone can get up and start preaching. The difference is, the snake handlers in the hollow potentially harm only themselves while the crazy mullahs and hojitoislams cause the deaths of innocents.

The stoning of homosexuals, the death penalty for conversion, killing women if they are raped are not the acts of a sane people. While there may be sane Moslems in the world they are swimming with co-religionists who are out and out crazy.

I rue the day that man, in his ignorance and fear, invented ANY religion.
This weakness in the human race has been a thorn in the side of man's peace and progress since its inception.
Even the discussion of religion stirs anger in some of us.

The very act of being religious is to open one's self to the most vile aspects of human nature, in the name of perfect ideals.

Theres a famous quote:"I dont believe in God,but im afraid of him".

Theres a famous quote:"I dont believe in God,but im afraid of him".
=======================================

I am afraid of a Grizzly bear. ;)

There's a limit of three days, asking the convert to think again or death...
If you're born a Muslim it's not that you're stuck with it, most strong Muslims aren't interested in converting. It's the weak ones who let the devil play with their mind to do sins... See, that's another filter example.

elp, you must first have faith in God in order to see the logic behind religions...

Frogger, why do you need a hierarchy :) when you have a sound brain to tell you what to do? If someone seems radical to you don't follow, and if what you're doing seems right then by all means... Islam doesn't let its followers follow one man only and gives the chance to look for information from different sources so that each person can take what suits his or her lifestyle. eg: in Malaysia, women are supposed to wear colorful dresses as its the custom there and if she wore all black she'd look out of place. In countries around the gulf, women wear all black and if one of them wore something colorful she'd look out of place and women aren't supposed to want to let themselves stand out and attract others.

btw, it's funny how many make fun of how women aren't allowed to be "clerks" and the pope is supposed to be a man only, why wasn't there a woman pope? and btw, it's ok for women to head certain things.

stoning homosexuals and etc. lol, it's not because you're a homosexual that you should be stoned, if you're a homosexual and tried to force yourself to engage in heterosexual acts then that is fine but doing it homosexually is what makes you liable for punishment. I don't know whether the punishment for engaging in a homosexual act is stoning or burning, I'm not sure...
I can tell you why these rules are part of the Islamic religion if you want... Point is, it's all there for a reason.

I mentioned the reasons for this in the past, but anyway...

Reason why Muslims who convert to another religion are killed:
1. To filter: Those who convert to Islam should know that that's their final choice, Islam doesn't tolerate religion tourists
2. To filter again: Muslims should be ones who have strong faith in their religion, not the weak ones, you should think well before wanting to convert.


You give some very good definitions of backwardness.

Christians think the same thing as muslims - they are 100% correct and the other side is of the devil. It's a joke really. What intelligent person can not look at that and simply laugh? Poor fools.

It's expected from any person who doesn't believe in God to scoff at different religions...

If you had faith in Him, you'll see what all the big fuss is about. And why what is backwardness to you is what over a 2 billion people in this planet follow.

It's expected from any person who doesn't believe in God to scoff at different religions...

If you had faith in Him, you'll see what all the big fuss is about. And why what is backwardness to you is what over a 2 billion people in this planet follow.
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Why does believing in God require a religion with man made rules and regulations?

I know many an unbeliever who doesn't "scoff."
They simply do not believe. There's a difference, IMO.

I don't know whether the punishment for engaging in a homosexual act is stoning or burning, I'm not sure...
I can tell you why these rules are part of the Islamic religion if you want... Point is, it's all there for a reason.
Wow - you are really scaring me. Do you really think religion can justify murders and violence? Please do tell me why those rules are there! :S

I know people that believe in God, but not religion.
Any "scoffing," is probably, directed at individuals that require everyone to believe as they do or suffer some consequences.

Let's see, if you are a Moslem and convert to a different religion you have three days to reconsider and return to the Moslem fold. Only after the three days will you be killed. If you are a homosexual and force yourself to have heterosexual sex you will be okay but if you have homosexual sex you will be killed. Yep, that's what I call an enlightened religion.

"In Islam, freedom in its general sense is a well-established fact. At a time when people were enslaved intellectually, politically, socially, religiously, and economically, Islam came to establish the freedom of belief, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, and freedom to criticize. Islam strictly forbids that people be forced to adopt a certain creed or to believe in a particular religion. Allah Almighty says: [If it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth; wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?] (Yunus 10: 99) This was in the Makkan era. In the Madinan period, Allah also revealed: [Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error.] (Al-Baqarah 2: 256)

Furthermore, the Qur’an clearly protects the freedom of belief (Al-Baqarah: 256). It also protects the right of worship and respects all places of worship (Al-Hajj: 40)."

Homosexuality is against human nature; it is harmful to man and it betrays one basic goal of sex, namely: procreation within the limits of marriage only. That is why it is prohibited to practice homosexuality. There is no doubt that this act, which goes against the pure human nature created by God, by making men content with men and women with women, destroying families, adversely affecting the birth rate, causing the spread of killer diseases, harming the innocent when children are raped, and generally spreading corruption on earth, should be uprooted and stamped out."

It's expected from any person who doesn't believe in God to scoff at different religions...

If you had faith in Him, you'll see what all the big fuss is about. And why what is backwardness to you is what over a 2 billion people in this planet follow.

You don't have to believe in some brainwashed line of thought that you would never believe in anyway if you hadn't grown up in it in order to believe in God. Of those 2billion - approximately 99% would believe something entirely different if they were born in a different country. There are many religions - 2 Billion Muslims, probably 2 Billion Christians - all believing they are 100% right - well they can't all be right - so it's a safe bet that none are right - especially when you factor in that what they believe so strongly is simply a factor of where they were born. Of the different religions - Islam has shown itself to be one of the more backwards ones. It's just bad luck that those people were born in backward countries.

"In Islam, freedom in its general sense is a well-established fact. At a time when people were enslaved intellectually, politically, socially, religiously, and economically, Islam came to establish the freedom of belief, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, and freedom to criticize. Islam strictly forbids that people be forced to adopt a certain creed or to believe in a particular religion. Allah Almighty says: [If it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth; wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?] (Yunus 10: 99) This was in the Makkan era. In the Madinan period, Allah also revealed: [Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error.] (Al-Baqarah 2: 256)

Furthermore, the Qur’an clearly protects the freedom of belief (Al-Baqarah: 256). It also protects the right of worship and respects all places of worship (Al-Hajj: 40)."

Homosexuality is against human nature; it is harmful to man and it betrays one basic goal of sex, namely: procreation within the limits of marriage only. That is why it is prohibited to practice homosexuality. There is no doubt that this act, which goes against the pure human nature created by God, by making men content with men and women with women, destroying families, adversely affecting the birth rate, causing the spread of killer diseases, harming the innocent when children are raped, and generally spreading corruption on earth, should be uprooted and stamped out."

Wow.
Forgive me, but this seems to me to be an exceedingly harsh and unforgiving doctrine.
You understand I am not mocking here, I simply do not or can not accept such thinking.
May I ask, have you ever witnessed any harsh acts directed personally against those of your faith who didn't toe the line?
What were your personal thoughts or feelings about such acts?

"In Islam, freedom in its general sense is a well-established fact. At a time when people were enslaved intellectually, politically, socially, religiously, and economically, Islam came to establish the freedom of belief, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, and freedom to criticize. Islam strictly forbids that people be forced to adopt a certain creed or to believe in a particular religion. Allah Almighty says: [If it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth; wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?] (Yunus 10: 99) This was in the Makkan era. In the Madinan period, Allah also revealed: [Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error.] (Al-Baqarah 2: 256)

Furthermore, the Qur’an clearly protects the freedom of belief (Al-Baqarah: 256). It also protects the right of worship and respects all places of worship (Al-Hajj: 40)."

Homosexuality is against human nature; it is harmful to man and it betrays one basic goal of sex, namely: procreation within the limits of marriage only. That is why it is prohibited to practice homosexuality. There is no doubt that this act, which goes against the pure human nature created by God, by making men content with men and women with women, destroying families, adversely affecting the birth rate, causing the spread of killer diseases, harming the innocent when children are raped, and generally spreading corruption on earth, should be uprooted and stamped out."

Before I respond, I noticed your post was in quotation marks. Is this your writing, or did you copy it from somewhere?

Before I respond, I noticed your post was in quotation marks. Is this your writing, or did you copy it from somewhere?
Its quoted with slight modifications.

Its quoted with slight modifications.

I see. When quoting someone it's generally considered good form to give credit to the author.


Homosexuality is against human nature; it is harmful to man and it betrays one basic goal of sex, namely: procreation within the limits of marriage only.

This statement is just hogwash. Homosexuality is not against human nature, which is why we have homosexuals. Nature makes them. I would challenge someone to tell me how homosexuality has harmed me, or anyone else for that matter. I also fail to see how "sex", a basic biological drive, could in any way be connected to "marriage", an institution made by men.

If you had faith in Him, you'll see what all the big fuss is about. And why what is backwardness to you is what over a 2 billion people in this planet follow.

For the sake of being anal-retentive, there aren't 2 billion Muslims (yet). Phew, alright, continue with your regularly scheduled debate.

This statement is just hogwash. Homosexuality is not against human nature, which is why we have homosexuals. Nature makes them. I would challenge someone to tell me how homosexuality has harmed me, or anyone else for that matter. I also fail to see how "sex", a basic biological drive, could in any way be connected to "marriage", an institution made by men.
Just cause it hasnt harmed you, it does not mean it hasnt harmed other ppl. And can you answer this for me. Why is it that homosexual men have a greater chance of contracting AIDS or the HIV virus?

Just cause it hasnt harmed you, it does not mean it hasnt harmed other ppl.

I suppose that's true...again, how is being gay harmful to anyone?


And can you answer this for me. Why is it that homosexual men have a greater chance of contracting AIDS or the HIV virus?

They don't. At least not how you are suggesting. Gay people have no more or less chance of contracting HIV than straight people do. All people who have unprotected sex are at risk. To attribute AIDS to gays is just bad science. The HIV virus was around for years before it exploded in the gay population because there was a large group of people who had unprotected sex with multiple partners. The straight community just had sex with multiple partners. Now that it is predominantly in the gay community, it seems only logical that gays would be at greater risk of exposure to the virus. Now if promiscuity is what you're objecting to, I suggest that perhaps one of the reasons for gay promiscuity might be that society refuses to recognize their relationships as having worth, and that leads some gays to come to the same conclusion. That being said, gay promiscuity is minor considering they make up ~4% of the population. If you're upset about promiscuity, I recommend targeting heterosexual promiscuity. It's positively rampant. :)

Why is it that homosexual men have a greater chance of contracting AIDS or the HIV virus?Why is it that homosexual women have the least chance of contracting AIDS or the HIV virus? Does this mean that Allah approves of their lifestyle?

Just cause it hasnt harmed you, it does not mean it hasnt harmed other ppl. And can you answer this for me. Why is it that homosexual men have a greater chance of contracting AIDS or the HIV virus?

Your arguments are pretty weak. It seems that the more you post the more you are a grand advertisement for why people should stay away from religion. It screws with people's mind, turns them into judgemental pious fools. Muslims, Christians whatever - they all trade in the same bullshit - different story, same garbage.

Man will reach a new level when everybody is educated enough to think for themselves and shake off the hideous chains of religion.

Why is it that homosexual women have the least chance of contracting AIDS or the HIV virus? Does this mean that Allah approves of their lifestyle?
Can two women reproduce?

Can two women reproduce?

No, and neither can 2 men. What's your point?

Sedan destroyed your argument beyond repair in about 20 words. That's pretty good going.

No, and neither can 2 men. What's your point?

Sedan destroyed your argument beyond repair in about 20 words. That's pretty good going.
There is no need to get cynical guys. My point being is that life only continues on because of reproduction which can only achieved through heterosexual sex.

There is no need to get cynical guys. My point being is that life only continues on because of reproduction which can only achieved through heterosexual sex.

Well given that the vast majority of people are heterosexual and there are 6 billion people on the planet - I think we are not going to risk extinction because some people are homosexual.

The whole religious argument is bogus.

Well given that the vast majority of people are heterosexual and there are 6 billion people on the planet - I think we are not going to risk extinction because some people are homosexual.

The whole religious argument is bogus.
We all have our different opinions. And you don't have to agree with mine. And I dont have to agree with yours. You may think my opinions are foolish and silly but to me it is common sense. We can butt heads and argure back and forth but really its not going to change anything. It's fruitless. You can blab on all you want on how Islam is backwards and I can go on forever about how its not, we are not going to achieve anything except for a complete rebuttal and disagreement.

We all have our different opinions. And you don't have to agree with mine. And I dont have to agree with yours. You may think my opinions are foolish and silly but to me it is common sense. We can butt heads and argure back and forth but really its not going to change anything. It's fruitless. You can blab on all you want on how Islam is backwards and I can go on forever about how its not, we are not going to achieve anything except for a complete rebuttal and disagreement.

Well that certainly seems true. Islam being backwards is certainly mostly subjective on my part, but the other stuff is factual.

It is impossible to disagree with anybody who claims to have a divine monopoly on the truth. That is basically what you are saying - screw the other 4 billion people who believe something else and are going to hell. Plus all the fags - the chinks and the irish - they are going to hell too.

Well that certainly seems true. Islam being backwards is certainly mostly subjective on my part, but the other stuff is factual.

It is impossible to disagree with anybody who claims to have a divine monopoly on the truth. That is basically what you are saying - screw the other 4 billion people who believe something else and are going to hell. Plus all the fags - the chinks and the irish - they are going to hell too.
That's not exactly what I was saying. Actually it wasn't even close. I'm just saying we should drop the discussion because there is no chaning our opinions.

On that basis what's the point of even having Allforums? I couldn't care if your opinion changes or not - it's still fun to discuss.

Its a bit arrogant to call anybodys religion 'backward'..