An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.

After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.

Ben Griffin told commanders that he thought the Iraq war was illegal

He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

The decision marks the first time an SAS soldier has refused to go into combat and quit the Army on moral grounds.

Continued: http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas12.xml
Interview: http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas112.xml

I cant believe more havent done this by now!!!!!!!!

From article

"Mr Griffin expected to be placed under arrest, labelled a coward, court-martialed and imprisoned for daring to air such views.

Instead, however, he was allowed to leave the Army with his exemplary military record intact and with a glowing testimonial from his commanding officer, who described him as a "balanced and honest soldier who possesses the strength and character to genuinely have the courage of his convictions".

Its amazing how many ppl are turning against bush (Otherwise he would be arrested,etc.......) .. More and more ppl are waking up :)

The SAS soldier should have been labelled a coward, court-martialed and imprisoned for daring to air such views.

If your in the SAS - then you don't do this no matter what you think. The Army is not a democracy.

Somebody here seemed to forget the Nuremburg trials.

So what? One SAS trooper gets let out of a combat zone and this is supposed to make news? Maybe he's a politician in the making. Go to war as a super soldier, - get the vet crowd ... get out of there fast enough not to see any serious crap with some BS story, - thereby securing the anti-war crowd ... depending upon just how the winds blow come campaign time. Boy's got potential, even for a coward.

Well we aren't there and don't know the whole story but we are perfect coach refs.

Bwahahhaa. You guys are fucking pathetic. If someone doesn't agree with your views you automatically label them a coward...

"Born in London but brought up in Wales, Mr Griffin left school at 18 with two A-levels and six GCSEs and, although he could have become an officer, he preferred life in the ranks."

"It immediately brought to an end Mr Griffin's exemplary, eight-year career in which he also served with the Parachute Regiment, taking part in operations in Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan."

If your in the SAS - then you don't do this no matter what you think. The Army is not a democracy. Yes but he is allowed to refuse based on war crimes and his countries military acting on behalf of another country. Neither of those things are what he should be doing and he knows it.

The word coward can be loosly used in many cases. I would rather know the man that stood up for what he believed in then know the man that went with the flow. If this man believes something is wrong and is trying to show it to the world then he is far from being a coward. If he is just running away because he is scared then he is a coward. If we were to find out that this person did have truth to what he is standing up for then that would make him closer to a hero.

First of all, a coward is someone who is showing fear. No evidence to support that claim here if he is telling the truth, which it appears that he is. He wouldn't choose to be in the ranks over an officer if he had issues with being afraid.

If an officer gives an order to shoot civilians for personal reasons, I would commend any soldier who refused the order. Simply put, an officer (or a president) does not always make the right decision and under certain situations a soldier should not obey.

I still agree that in most cases it is the duty of a soldier to obey, and it is what keeps the order in the military, but not all.

This guy was a member of the parachute regiment, the same that carried out bloody sunday in Ireland, but he's concerned about "winning hearts and minds"? :rolleyes:

bah - that was in the 70's. Are you suggesting that a soldier serving in the regiment now is also responsible for the masscre back then? That's moronic.

The bloody sunday murderers are stilll at large and recieved medals from their queen. It's hardly a dead issue as much as you'd like it to be.

I clearly wasn't saying he was responsible, but pointing out the contradiction.

A further contradictory clue is that the Brits state their preference to work with the Russians in the next war over the Americans. The Russians in Chechnya make the Yanks look like pacifists by comparison. To compete with them, the Americans would have to reduce Baghdad to smoking rubble.

This is just more backwards John Bull antiAmericanism.

Well, I think you can easily seperate the man and the regiment - his views to win the hearts and minds are his own. Therefore, I see no contradiction.
Bloody sunday is a disgrace for the british military, but let's see how the Saville inquiry turns out.
So the brits want's to work with the russians over the americans? That's hillarious! I'd like to read more, do you have a link?

Here is a quote from a British security contractor in Iraq about his American counterparts: "I hate those bastards more than the scumbag insurgents." A British colonel recently returned from a tour in the country said that, in our next war, he would sooner fight alongside the Russians than the US.

link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/03/12/do1201.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/03/1)

Originally posted by Deepest Red
link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/03/12/do1201.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/03/1)

Sounds like he still hasn't gotten over 1776.

Soldiers going Awol have trebled since the invasion of Iraq
By Severin Carrell
Published: 19 March 2006

The number of soldiers absconding from the British Army has trebled since the invasion of Iraq, raising fears that the military is facing a crisis in morale.

The Independent on Sunday can reveal that last year more than 380 soldiers went absent without leave and have since failed to return to duty - marking a dramatic increase since the invasion of Iraq three years ago.

Military lawyers and campaigners said that these figures suggested significant levels of disaffection in the ranks over the legality of the occupation, and growing discontent about the coalition's failure to defeat the Iraqi insurgency.

An RAF doctor was last week taken to a court martial for refusing to serve in Iraq, claiming the occupation is illegal, and a former SAS trooper, Ben Griffin, revealed he had quit the army in protest at the war.

Mr Griffin was among the 20,000 anti-war protesters, including a number of families of serving soldiers, who marched in London yesterday to mark the third anniversary of the war in Iraq.

Opposition MPs were alarmed by the new figures. Bob Russell, the Liberal Democrat MP for the garrison town of Colchester in Essex, is to question ministers about the numbers in the Commons this week.

Mr Russell, a Defence spokesman, said he believed morale in the army was generally high, but added: "That's an increase worthy of detailed investigation as to whether there's an underlying reason for it."

Rest of article (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article352181.ece)

"we already support the brave insurgent freedom fighters, lets drive a wedge between the allies now." fucking pathetic. all you mother fuckers should go to iraq and pick up an AK-47 and fight the evil bastard US or STFU. i am sick of the constant jabs and swipes backed up by nothing but a fucking link. talk about cowards.

:rolleyes:

Sure just as soon as your chickenshit ass goes to Iraq (Iran?) and "kills all a dem evil doers". Or wait I forgot. You fight bravely from your keyboard...
;)

OK, you go to iraq and pick up an AK-47 and I will join the army and we will meet up over there. assuming the insurgents dont behead your sissy ass I am sure a 7.62 round from an American M-60 will do it for you when you peel up from your hiding spot :D

As if rilla could qualify for the military in any capacity ...

Also, Trav has done his share of facing bad guys - have you???

Obviously no one is going to aid the insurgents, but still there is a LOT of room for improvement on how the US is handling the situation.

Trav, the best thinkers do not necessarily have to be on the front lines or prove themselves to be right. A perfectly legit criticism can come from a green beret, a coward or a retard.

well, guerilla has those last two coverd pretty well.

Hey windwip, do you play guild wars and have an account on the guildwars guru forum?

haha, nope I don't. I'm staying clear of any rpgs, they eat up all my time

oh, ok, there is a guy on there with the same avatar you are using

As if rilla could qualify for the military in any capacity ... as if you know anything about me in any way shape or form...

I am sure he could make it in as a bayonet dummy :D

Originally posted by The Dude

Its amazing how many ppl are turning against bush (Otherwise he would be arrested,etc.......) .. More and more ppl are waking up :)

the fact that he was honorably discharged from the army doesn't nessicaraly mean the higher officers are turning against bush. i personally think that is a testament to the fact that we have an all volunteer army, and when one of our solders wants out, he is allowed out. i think the practice of court marshalling a solder who refuses to fight because of moral opposition to the war is ludacris.

i think the practice of court marshalling a solder who refuses to fight because of moral opposition to the war is ludacris.

What the fuck are you talking about? That's not ludacris! This is Ludacris:

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_classics/hustle___flow/ludacris/hustle2.jpg

Originally posted by Napsterbater
What the fuck are you talking about? That's not ludacris! This is Ludacris:

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_classics/hustle___flow/ludacris/hustle2.jpg

the problem with using spellcheck to make yourself sound like less of an idiot is that sometimes it makes you sound like a much bigger one. I'm sure you know i meant ludicrous

Just ribbin' ya. I thought the over-dramatic, "What the fuck are you talking about?" gave it away.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Just ribbin' ya. I thought the over-dramatic, "What the fuck are you talking about?" gave it away.

i know, i know. don't worry about it. anywho, now that this is completely off topic, how 'bout them solders?

Still dying, last I heard.

Russians cant make it,at this time of year their all in Tenerife watching CNN,laughing at the yanks AND the brits.

U.S. deserter tells of atrocities
By ANDREW DAVIDSON

TORONTO (CP) - A "trigger-happy" U.S. army squad leader shot the foot off an unarmed Iraqi man and soldiers kicked a severed head around like a soccer ball, a U.S. war deserter told an Immigration and Refugee Board hearing Thursday.

Joshua Key, the first U.S. deserter with combat experience in Iraq to apply for refugee status in Canada, told the board he witnessed numerous atrocities committed by U.S. forces while serving eight months as a combat engineer.

Key, 27, said he was never trained on the Geneva Convention and was told in Iraq by superior officers that the international law guiding humanitarian standards was just a "guideline."

"It's shoot first, ask questions later," Key said of his squad's guiding principles. "Everything's justified."

Key is one of five members of the U.S. armed forces asking for asylum in Canada.

But the Oklahoma native is unique in that he is the only applicant that has combat experience in Iraq, said Key's lawyer, Jeffry House. The other are seeking asylum in Canada to avoid being sent there, he said.

"He has boots-on-the-ground experience about what the actual conduct of the war in Iraq is," House said outside the hearing.

With visible bags under his eyes, Key told the hearing he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and frequently has nightmares over what he witnessed in Iraq.

He recalled participating in almost nightly raids on homes of suspected insurgents in Ramadi and Fallujah as a member of the 43rd Combat Engineer Company.

He said that while the raids seldom turned up anything of interest, he often saw soldiers ransack the homes and steal jewelry or money, while superior officers looked the other way.

He also said several Iraqis were shot dead, and that they were cases of soldiers "shooting out of fear and inventing reasons afterward."

In Ramadi, Key said he saw the beheaded bodies of four Iraqis beside a shot-up truck and witnessed several members of the Florida National Guard kick a severed head "like a soccer ball."

Key also said he witnessed one of his "trigger happy" platoon's squad sergeants shoot part of an unarmed Iraqi man's foot off in Khaldia, a village between Fallujah and Ramadi. The man was sitting on a chair outside a store and had raised his foot as a sign of disrespect, he said.

Key added he was never questioned about the incident and was not aware of any charges being laid.

Keith Brennenstuhl, the IRB member overseeing the hearing, ruled at an earlier hearing that the board would not consider the legality of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

Key also described seeing U.S. soldiers indiscriminately kick and scream at two hooded and naked detainees while escorting them to a grassy area to relieve themselves.

Brennenstuhl asked Key whether he received any interrogation training before dragging detainees out of their homes during raids.

"The only thing we were told was how to keep them quiet," Key said, explaining that soldiers cuffed prisoners' hands behind their backs and put hoods over their heads.

"Could they breathe?" Brennenstuhl asked.

"I guess it wasn't my concern," Key responded, adding that officers said the hoods were designed "to humiliate them."

Key, the father of four young children, told the hearing he joined the army for steady pay and medical coverage for his family. He said he initially went to Iraq as a willing participant because he believed U.S. intelligence claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

But Key became disillusioned with the war during his service and decided to abandon his contract with the army during a two-week leave from Iraq in November 2003.

He and his family lived on the run in Philadelphia before crossing the border at Niagara Falls, N.Y., on March 3, 2005.

Key now works as a welder in Fort St. John, B.C. He and his wife Brandi have four children between the ages of seven months and six years.

If returned to the United States, Key said he believed the army would "make an example" of him as a way to deter other possible deserters.

Lawyers from all parties will submit their written submissions in the coming weeks before the board rules on Key's application.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/03/30/pf-1512671.html

Thanx 500.if incidents of this nature are true,the US military have no chance of winning in Iraq.They should take a leaf out of British military thinking,In Ireland they went in gun ho,after about 15 years they changed tactics,more a policing operation,for them it worked.

Unfortunatly they are not just true but becomeing more common place by the day...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040406Z.shtml

How Massacres Become the Norm
By Dahr Jamail
Tuesday 04 April 2006

US soldiers killing innocent civilians in Iraq is not news. Just as it was not news that US soldiers slaughtered countless innocent civilians in Vietnam. However, when some rare reportage of this non news from Iraq does seep through the cracks of the corporate media, albeit briefly, the American public seems shocked. Private and public statements of denial and dismissal immediately start to fill the air. We hear, "American soldiers would never do such a thing," or "Who would make such a ridiculous claim?"

It amazes me that so many people in the US today somehow seriously believe that American soldiers would never kill civilians. Despite the fact that they are in a no-win guerrilla war in Iraq which, like any other guerrilla war, always generates more civilian casualties than combatant casualties on either side.

Robert J. Lifton is a prominent American psychiatrist who lobbied for the inclusion of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders after his work with US veterans from Vietnam. His studies on the behavior of those who have committed war crimes led him to believe it does not require an unusual level of mental illness or of personal evil to carry out such crimes. Rather, these crimes are nearly guaranteed to occur in what Lifton refers to as "atrocity-producing situations."

Several of his books, like The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide, examine how abnormal conditions work on normal minds, enabling them to commit the most horrendous crimes imaginable.

Iraq today is most certainly an "atrocity-producing situation," as it has been from the very beginning of the occupation.

The latest reported war crime, a US military raid on the al-Mustafa Shia mosque in Baghdad on March 26th, which killed at least 16 people, is only one instance of the phenomena that Lifton has spoken of.

An AP video of the scene shows male bodies tangled together in a bloody mass on the floor of the Imams' living quarters - all of them with shotgun wounds and other bullet holes. The tape also shows shell casings of the caliber used by the US military scattered about on the floor. An official from the al-Sadr political bloc reported that American forces had surrounded the hospital where the wounded were taken for treatment after the massacre.

The slaughter was followed by an instant and predictable disinformation blitz by the US military. The second ranking US commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, told reporters "someone went in and made the scene look different from what it was."

On March 15th, 11 Iraqis, mostly women and children, were massacred by US troops in Balad. Witnesses told reporters that US helicopters landed near a home, which was then stormed by US troops. Everyone visible was rounded up and taken inside the house where they were killed. The victims' ages ranged from six months to 75 years.

The US military acknowledged the raid, but claimed to have captured a resistance fighter and insisted that only four people had been killed. Their claim would have held good but for the discrepancies that the available evidence presents. For one, the photographs that the AP reporter took of the scene reveal a collapsed roof, three destroyed cars and two dead cows. The other indictment comes from the detailed report of the incident prepared by Iraq Police. It matches witness accounts and accuses the American troops of murdering Iraqi civilians.

"The American forces gathered the family members in one room and executed 11 persons, including five children, four women and two men. Then they bombed the house, burned three vehicles and killed the animals." The report includes the observation of local medics that all of the bodies had bullet wounds in the head.

Ahmed Khalaf, the nephew of one of the victims said, "The killed family was not part of the resistance, they were women and children. The Americans have promised us a better life, but we get only death." AP photos of the aftermath showed the bodies of five children, two men and four others covered in blankets being driven to a nearby hospital.

much more...
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040406Z.shtml

a bunch of crap again. written byone clueless fuck and believed by another. go to a base and talk to the troops, tell me if they are cold blooded killers, or beter yet, ask them about it. Of course you wont, prefering to hide behind truthout.org to prop up your BS. I am 100% certain a squad of US troops didnt round up and hose down a group of 11 innocents ranging in age from 6 months to 75 years. good god your a fucking retard guerilla :upyours:

You'd be surprised what people are capable of Trav. Especially when in the middle of situations they've had no training for.

a bunch of crap again. written byone clueless fuck and believed by another. A clueless fuck who spent 8 months in Iraq and many of them talking to soilders. So Trav how long have you spent in Iraq talking to soldiers?

BTW I do love the transition from "war is hell" to "no way this is true"....

Just out of curiosity... how many US national gardists are serving in Iraq? If the US national guard is ANYTHING like our national guard, man, the high military command must be getting desperate enlisting those guys!

A clueless fuck who spent 8 months in Iraq and many of them talking to soilders. So Trav how long have you spent in Iraq talking to soldiers?

BTW I do love the transition from "war is hell" to "no way this is true"....


the fact you wouldnt confront any soldier face to face with this shows it isnt true. if it were you would be out blowing up convoys yourself. your all talk man. Why dont you go find a few more articles written by fake veterans and post em for us chickenshit

You'd be surprised what people are capable of Trav. Especially when in the middle of situations they've had no training for.

so you think you are capable of mowing down a baby and an old man for no reason? I know I am not, and no way would I just go along with someone who wanted to or tried to order me too.

If anything we are to quick to believe all of this crap spewn by the quarterpound monkeys of the world and dont give our guys enough credit. These are not punk gang bangers thrust into a situation, they are professional soldiers who volunteered to do what they are doing. no matetr waht you say Iraq is not bad enough to make someone go ape shit and mow down a family for no reason. It is a bunch of bullshit, and of course the guy who wrote it is a veteran! how convienient.

so you think you are capable of mowing down a baby and an old man for no reason?

There are always reasons.

These are not punk gang bangers thrust into a situation,

Some of them are. The short period of training the Army gives it's soldiers is not enough to turn them all into professional soldiers. They do a pretty good job given the time they are allotted, but it is a pretty tall order.

they are professional soldiers who volunteered to do what they are doing.

That might be good enough to beat a soldier over the head with when he doesn't want to do it anymore, but it is insufficient to make a real argument with. War, no matter how bad it is, no matter how intense, is absolute hell, and it brings out the best and the worst in everyone. Just because they volunteered doesn't mean much when they are in the middle of it.

I think it's rather pointless to speculate on the level of training of the anonymous "troops" since we have no information about who/what they might be.

All in all, I have to go with Trav on this one. It's rather farfetched that some soldiers flew in, rounded up a large family and gunned them down. Without substantial corroboration it seems unlikely.

How much corroboration do you need? There have been like eight articles posted in this thread so far!

How much corroboration do you need? There have been like eight articles posted in this thread so far!

I'm referring to the incident mentioned in 500's post & link...the 11 people allegedly rounded up and executed. One article. It might be worth noting that the article is an editorial. I agree with Trav in concept, if not certitude. It seems highly unlikely that this incident occurred as suggested in the article. Without further corroboration, I don't buy it.

I'm don't care to debate the veracity of the event in question, because, as you said, it is an editorial. What I do think, though, is that it isn't necessarily far-fetched for this kind of situation to happen.

In my mind, low-intensity warfare grates on the state of mind of soldiers the worst. I can only imagine the pain and frustration US troops must be going through by not knowing day to day whether there will be an attack or not, in a way that is somewhat different than the type of total war experienced in WW2. Losing one comrade in two weeks can be more traumatizing than losing two dozen, leading to retaliations of the kind illustrated in the editorial. It's the type of situation that would easily lead to atrocities. I'm more inclined to believe even this editorial when it cites psychological studies than the frustrated pleas of people who categorically refuse to believe that America is capable of doing the same thing other nations would do in our place. We aren't that different.

Perhaps if qp went into uniformed service of his country, we might get reports firsthand, rather than 4th or 18th hand as is presented here.

It is firsthand knowledge. Jeez, don't you know anything?

Dahr Jamail went there and observed events, making his firsthand knowledge. We are reading his report. Should we decide to relate the information to our kid sisters, who hasn't read the report, it would then become secondhand knowledge. Should she decide to read Dahr Jamail's account, she would then have received firsthand reporting from Dahr. Should we be reading Rush Limbaugh's version of events, who has never been to Iraq, (I'm guessing) it would be secondhand information, (assuming that Rush is indeed interpreting another's firsthand account) which would become thirdhand should we decide to relate it to our kid sister.

Statements like that really highlight a person's ignorance.

You're giving qp more credit that it deserves.

so this person saw the helicopeter land and the soldiers round up a family and mow them down? And since its on the internet we are suppsed to believe that? I never heard of darth jamal or whoever the hell it is. I know from first hand experience what US soldiers are like in intense situations, and never once was there the slightest hint that we were about to go Gengis Khan on the locals. If our squad leader told us to round up a family and kill them he would of gotten a rifle butt to the face. The thing you are saying we should believe is the sort of thing done by the Waffen SS. I said it before and I will say it again, its bullshit.

How about the Phillipine-American War?

what about it?

Do I really need to say it? We can and have committed these sorts of atrocities on foreign civilians.

sorry, but I am drawinga blank on the philipine-american war, please enlighten me

Do what I do when I lack knowledge on a subject, consult wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine-American_War

thanks for the link, but that doesnt prove a squad of americans flew in on a helicopter, rounded up a family of Iraqis and shot them

Are you that dense? I said from the very outset that I am not interested in debating the truth of the claim. I was only replying to es's mudslinging. I want to argue that it can happen, and that incidents like this probably already have in Iraq. As I've said before, from what happened in the Phillipines post-WW2, the psychological information I have gathered over the years, and the news reports already posted in the thread prior to this lead me to at least not dismiss the idea out of hand.

Just out of curiosity... how many US national gardists are serving in Iraq? If the US national guard is ANYTHING like our national guard, man, the high military command must be getting desperate enlisting those guys! Actually they are so desperate they are now training sailors for ground combat. Feel a draft?

so this person saw the helicopeter land and the soldiers round up a family and mow them down? And since its on the internet we are suppsed to believe that?Yeah I mean its not like theres stories of atrocities for every single US conflict or anything (or any conflict for that matter) best to just shove your head in the sand and pretend its not true...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1735748,00.html

I mean its not like the article also talks about numerous other instances when the US military says they only shot fighters only later to have photos come out of murder women and children...

the fact remains you have never been in the miltary or a conflict, I have. all your information comes from biased sources with an agenda to shit can the war an the US military. You claim to have friends and friends dads in the miltary vets. I have friends who are vets and who are still in and in Iraq right now. WE have totally differnet views on the war and the military, now someone is bullshitting someone here, and I know it isnt me.

ahhh...how cute Trav is being passive agressive....

Well you tell all your friends in Iraq that when they are not busy catching flowers from grateful Iraqis that they should get some "real reporters" in Iraq instead of all those damn liberal satanist hate mongers...

why dont you tell your friends in Iraq to grow some balls and stop all the war crimes they see and come back and tell you about