http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_7.html#metzinger

Can you even imagine not having free will? What kind of effect would that have on you, if it wasn't just an academic debate? Can you walk through life knowing that there is no way you could have stepped differently?

For me, it isn't much of a problem. I see my lack of will every day, and it doesn't cause me many problems at all, just the occasional one when others ask me why I seem to lack a belief in personal accountability. To me, life is fulfilling enough without having to actually pick what direction I am going in.

What would happen should scientific evidence conclude conclusively our lack of will. Just imagine what kind of blow that would have on society! In many ways, the only thing holding society together is the idea that we can be held accountable for our actions, it is very possible that such a finding would lead to general anarchy. Would society collapse?

To my father, free will is absolutely necessary to his worldview, being a twelve-step alcoholic whose been sober for nine years. He needs to believe that he has some kind of power over his addiction. Would he relapse?

Would there be riots in the streets, relatives demanding their loved ones to be released from prison? Or would we forge a stronger, more self-aware society that accepts that humans are fallible, and stop asking them to be perfect?

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Or would we forge a stronger, more self-aware society that accepts that humans are fallible, and stop asking them to be perfect? Only if we choose to.

I believe that the beauty, of what we call 'free will,' is that it can change.
When I make decisions today they are different than the dicisions that I made years ago. Usually, this is due to personal experiences that make me view situations differently.

I can even make decisions that are completely irrational to another person. I can make decisions that are even illegal by the standards established by others. In extreme cases of free will I could lose my life as a penalty imposed by others.

To exercise free will one must use caution.
Therefore do I truly have free will? I would answer no in this circumstance. Because the exercise of free will without regard to the laws established and inforced by others would put an end to my practice of free will.

But, one might say that the choice to live by the laws of others in relative safety of no reprocussions is free will.

For a child to exercise complete free will he/she is considered unruly, as an adult, a criminal.

To say that one is limited in the exercise of free will because of brain programming is to allow the fact that free will can change as knowledge and experiences change. Therefore is not limited by the original genes installed at brain creation.

I don't think you get it, Dan. The idea is that our brains move just as determinalistically as the planets. What you do in one moment determines what you do in the next, and there is no space for free will to act in. Even the very idea of free will comes from exactly the opposite. If you come to a certain state of being where you would consider yourself of higher will than another, it is because you were destined to do so, but no actual will exists, just the feeling of it.

To say that "you make decisions," doesn't cut it, because you just don't know all the factors that went into that decision. I can choose to do things that would be considered inexplicable even to you. I choose not to. That choice has been made for me, because I am just not interested in doing so. Determinalism has chosen me to have whatever ability I have, and it dictates how I use it.

Even pondering the idea that you have no free will cannot help you to escape it. All you are doing is scratching the surface of the genetic bias against humans knowing their utter lack of will. There is nothing to do.

Only if we choose to.

We would be unable to choose.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
We would be unable to choose. Then what's the point in speculating about it?

For shits and giggles. One has to do something in life, why not ponder the imponderable?

I believe more in agent-causation with a slant toward compatibilism.

To me, multiple choices exist and the choice I make at the time was not pre-determined by the past.

To not act is a choice, a form of causation.

I see a world of infinite possibilities.

Of course you do. Everybody believes in their own form of free will. Some are heavily slanted towards personal responsibility, some believe as you do. I believe in my own form of free will, which I use to get by in life.

What, however, would happen if all of those beliefs were proven to be absolutely wrong? Surely that's one of your infinite possibilities...

But what do you mean by "proven to be absolutely wrong" ?

Psychology, neuroscience, sociology, genetics,ethology, etc. have already shown that many factors influence or even determine our decisions. That does not change anything to the way people live. Everyone and every society has its own vision of free will and determinism, and I believe science does not really change the way most people see it.

This is IMO more a philosophical issue than a purely scientific one, even if science has a lot to learn us about it.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
What, however, would happen if all of those beliefs were proven to be absolutely wrong? Surely that's one of your infinite possibilities... [/B]
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If this proof were possible, it would be the perfect excuse for me to be completely lazy. A condition of which I am perfectly capable.

Astra, to prove free will absolutely wrong, all we have to do is shine an intense light on the brain and look for any factors that aren't determined by the ones before. This cuts before sociology, before psychology, before every other factor we can think of that influences thought. If we can find activity in the brain which isn't determined, that would mean that somewhere in the equation, free will gets play. If it doesn't, then every state of the brain has been determined for you and the universe acts as a clockwork.

Dan, I know exactly what you mean. But should the proof be evident tomorrow, would you? Also, laziness is not always born out of the desire to be. Whenever I am in a lazy state of mind, I find that I have an enormous energy at my disposal. I predict that you will indeed be lazy for a period of time, then be driven by boredom to do something. It is a technique I use whenever I want to do something, but my mind won't think of something to do. I force myself to be completely lazy until the sheer boredom (stopped up energy) becomes so great that it becomes a rush. Then it doesn't matter what I do, because the character of the energy always makes it an interesting affair.

As I ponder the (experts) on such things as Determination and Indetermination I am once again glad that I have lived a life of my own thoughts, thoughts not ruled by the opinions and conclusions of others.
I believe this simple fact has given me an open-mindedness that has greatly enhansed my self-awareness.

I enter these facts as explanation of the opinions I have given, the choices I have made.

I am quite often amused at the exclamation of another when speaking of a persons PHD, Doctorate, or that he/she has written a book. Somehow these credentials of proves of acceptance of handed-down opinions of others are held in highest regard.

I note the example of the site you recommended. It was most informative.
I merely point out that each of the opinions was preceeded by the credentials of the writer, as if this was to give credulence to the words written.

I am more interested in the opinions of those that have not been tainted by institutions of said handed-down opinions.

Yes, it amuses me too when someone makes a huge fuss out of the fact that they have some kind of credential. Because I have only one thing I need before I will listen to an idea. That is whether it grabs my imagination and challenges my outlook. I've had all kinds of people from all walks of life give me ideas and insights. Many of them don't even know they are giving it to me.

Except that on this issue a neurobiologist will probably have much more relevant things to say than a hairdresser or a sailor.

Precisely. When it comes to the article's stated topic, dangerous ideas in science, it would have been remiss if they didn't include the contributors' contributions to science.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
What would happen should scientific evidence conclude conclusively our lack of will. If, somehow, it were definitively established that free will is an illusion I don't think it would have much of an impact. The illusion would persist.

For example (tenuous analogy alert!), we know now the earth is spherical but still use 2D maps to get around. For all intents and purposes the illusion of a flat earth works well in our day to day lives.

If I am offered a job in Califorina and a job in New York then no matter which job I chose it will have been predestined millions of years ago and I didn't really make a decision.

That takes the responsibility off of making the right decisions in life. I have always heard, "We live or die by the decisions we make".

I think it would have a huge impact on society, because already our illusion of free will is starting to be ineffective for dealing with certain aspects of our society. Should the marketers come across a surefire way to influence buying behavior, that would make a market economy based on advertising impossible to maintain.

As technology evolves to take advantage of the lack of free will, society would be forced to change a great deal.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I think it would have a huge impact on society, because already our illusion of free will is starting to be ineffective for dealing with certain aspects of our society. Should the marketers come across a surefire way to influence buying behavior, that would make a market economy based on advertising impossible to maintain.

As technology evolves to take advantage of the lack of free will, society would be forced to change a great deal.
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Nap, are you speaking here of the lack of free will or the gulibility of people? The ability to influence the choices of others?

Most advertising isn't based on gullibility, it is based on setting a mood and associating it with a product. Scientific research on subconscious cues has proven very effective, to the point that a factor of gullibility isn't needed. Subliminals are also used extensively, to convey information and suggestions directly to the subconscious where the conscious mind has little influence.

Yes but this is about the possibility to manipulate our mind, not about free will or determinism.

The very ability to manipulate mind calls into question directly the concept of free will.

Free will and fate are one in the same.

O.K., what about the people that do not have the ability to make decisions, birth defects, accidents, etc.?
What function would they play in free will?

Originally posted by Napsterbater
The very ability to manipulate mind calls into question directly the concept of free will.

I agree. But previously in this thread you were refering to absolute determinism - the idea that the brain is a system that totally escapes free will and that "decisions" are just an illusion. This is quite different from mind manipulation (which in fact does exist without a doubt).

http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_7.html#metzinger
Can you walk through life knowing that there is no way you could have stepped differently?


I look back on every day believing that I couldn't have acted differently given my internal and external circumstances. I don't feel at all distressed by this. I still understand that I make choices. But those choices result from my interacting internal and external circumstances and not from some mysteriously independent agent inside my head. There is still will, but it's not free will. It's determined or inevitable will.

I think that the concept of free will is a social construct designed to destroy the very thing it seeks to prove. It leads to the curious dichotomy of the philosophical libertarian denouncing certain acts of will and exalting others, seeking to influence that will for its own purposes, turning the libertarian into the authoritarian.

I am against both moral responsibility and free will. Free will inevitably leads to moral responsibility, which is the destruction of that very will.