Israel plans to pave new roads in the West Bank exclusively for Palestinians while Jewish settler vehicles keep to the existing network, a senior Israeli security source has said.

Palestinians condemned the idea as a form of apartheid and said the initiative appeared aimed at cementing Israel's hold on occupied land that they want for a state.

The Israeli source, who asked not to be named because the government has yet to finalise the road plan, said on Thursday there was no intention of formally limiting Palestinian movement.

"We want to ease access to various Palestinian communities," the source said. "There is no intention of bringing about a separation of Israeli and Palestinian traffic. Palestinians will continue to make use of the roads they use today."

The source said, however, that Israelis would be banned from the future Palestinians-only roads because "we do not want them to get into a situation where their lives would be at risk".

No details were immediately available of the extent of the proposed network or of when the plan might take effect.

"This is an apartheid system," said top Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erikat. "We urge the international community to help us in order to cancel such policies and end Israeli occupation."

About 245,000 Jews live among 2.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank.

Withdrawals

Israel, which quit the Gaza Strip last year in what it called a step to "disengage" from conflict with the Palestinians, says it will keep major West Bank settlement blocs under any accord.

Debate over any withdrawals from more isolated settlements is looming large ahead of next month's Israeli elections.

Using curfews and military checkpoints, Israel has often imposed ad hoc restrictions on Palestinians since fighting erupted in 2000. Palestinian and settler vehicles have different number plates, which eases the enforcement of Israeli bans.

In the Gaza Strip, settlers had at least one major road for their exclusive use, which circumvented a Palestinian highway. Israel called the move a security measure.

The World Court has branded all Israel's settlements on occupied land illegal. Israel disputes this.

Racist Palestines will kill any Jew they get their hands on so the Jews must seperate themselves from the killers. They want segregation they only want to live.

Kinda how like the Whites in South Africa wanted to be segragated from the Blacks.

All the palestinians have to do is renounce violence, lay down arms, cease firing rockets into Israel and publicly state there will be no more sucide bombings. Simple enough.

Until they do that - the Palestinians get only what they deserve.

Too many palestinians don't want peace, thats the problem.

I think they will do that once Israeli's stop demolishing their homes, get rid of the checkpoints, stop killing their children, etc. Basically once they stop practicing apartheid.

I wonder why the Israeli's demolish homes?

Answer - They demolish the homes of suicide bombers

Why do they have checkpoints?

Answer - To stop suicide bombers

Why do they kill their children?

Answer - Only in measured responses to kill terrorists, they do not purposely aim to kill innocent people. In contrast the palestinians send their own kids into Israel to blow themselves up.

Lets face it, if Israel wanted to wipe palestine off the map, they could do it tommorrow. They could occupy all of palestine in a new york second. If the tables were turned the palestinians would overrun Israel.

It's a chicken & and an egg situation perhaps, which comes first? Palestinian sucide bombers or Israeli responses. I think the answer is clear enough.

The only way the palestinians can live in peace with Israel is to stop the suicide bombings. It's very clear and Israel absolutely is in the right on this one. Palestine will be a state & they will live in peace only when they choose to & not before.

And you know all this because you have lived in Israel?

Why does one have to live in Israel? This isn't rocket science.

Isn't it clear? Israel take action to stop terrorists. You can argue that Israel's actions are oppressive, but they are only in response to suicide bombings & threats to the security of their people.

A people that condones the sending of brainwashed young people strapped with bombs & nails to blow themselves up and consequently kill innocent men women & children are basically worse than animals. Sorry - but that is 100% clear cut for me & I will never think it is justified or acceptable.

You cannot blame Israel for taking action to stop suicide bombers. Of course some innocent people may get killed in those actions, but that is not Isreals intent, in fact they show incredible restraint. They could destroy palestine any time they want. On the contrary - the Palestinian intent is clearly to kill as many innocent people as possible - something very different indeed.

The palestinians can have a better life and peace whenever they choose to have it. I hope they choose peace because the killing is senseless.

I am in agreement with googs on this issue.

Yes, some Palestinians have acted in horrendous ways. There is no justification for suicide bombings and terrorist acts. Those acts, however, are committed by individuals. The terrorist acts of the Israelis are committed as government policy.

Imagine the uproar if the American government routinely leveled the houses of the families of murders even if the other family members knew nothing of what was going on. Imagine the outcry if U.S. soldiers went into black neighborhoods and cut down their orange groves and then bulldozed the land so that whites could move in. Imagine the cries of rage if the American government refused building permits to blacks, wouldn't run electricity or water lines to their neighborhoods while doing so for small white enclaves within the larger black community. Imagine the anger if a leading white political candidate entered the Ebenezer Baptist Church flanked by armed troops disrupting worship services for a provocative photo opportunity to use in his campaign. Imagine the hatred that would be engendered if walls were built around black neighborhoods and certain roads through those neighborhoods were set aside for the use of whites only.

The Israeli actions took place long before the Intifada so the argument that Israel is acting as an oppressor solely as a response to terrorism on the part of some Palestinians does not hold water. Israel confiscated Arab land, refused Arab building permits, blocked Arabs from traveling certain roads, and cut down Arab olive groves long before the Intifada.

Israel has a right to existence but it does not have the right to act like a jackbooted oppressor, totally ignoring the rest of the world.

Imagine if blacks went into markets and busses with bombs filled with screws nuts and ball bearings just to kill white folks, no matter that a few blacks get killed too. Imagine if the blacks named their schools after little children killed while killing white folks. Imagine if blacks carried ak-47's and apg's to kill white folks where ever they could find them. Imagine if the Blacks made a world tour to generate hate for American whites. Imagine if Blacks said whites were pigs and dogs.


Imagine if Blacks said whites had no right to exist and they were going to remedy that situation

I don't have to imagine it. I remember it. I remember the Black Panthers and the Simbonese Lineration Army. I remember innocent whites being dragged from cars and killed by black mobs in Watts. I remember cops being killed by black militants. I remember the bombs set by those same militants.

The response of the United States government was not taking away the land of innocent blacks. It was not forbidding blacks to ride on the same roads as whites. It was not denying them water and electricity or bulldozing the homes of relatives of Black Panthers.

The Israeli actions are meant to be provocative and are part of their overall plan to marginalize Arabs in their own land. The government that acts the closest to the Nazis today is the Israeli government. It targets people solely because of their race.

Originally posted by Frogger
I don't have to imagine it. I remember it. I remember the Black Panthers and the Simbonese Lineration Army. I remember innocent whites being dragged from cars and killed by black mobs in Watts. I remember cops being killed by black militants. I remember the bombs set by those same militants.
Yes, and we dealt harshly with those Islamic criminals. Most blacks are happy to live in peace with whites while all Palestines are Muslims and they voted for a government that denies the right for Isarel to exist. Imagine if 90% of the blacks denied the right for the USA to exist and were involved in an ongoing armed attack to destroy the USA.

Originally posted by Frogger
The response of the United States government was not taking away the land of innocent blacks. It was not forbidding blacks to ride on the same roads as whites. It was not denying them water and electricity or bulldozing the homes of relatives of Black Panthers.

Blacks who killed were denied the right to freely walk the streets and were put in cages to protect the good people of the world. When a family sends out their children as suicide bombers, you can't punish the dead child but you can punish the criminal parents by bulldozing their house. I think it is quite humane of the Jews to only attack a house when the household member just killed scores of Jews. Blacks or whites who called for the killing of people were put in Jail. In palestine that would be most of Palestine leadership.

Originally posted by Frogger

The Israeli actions are meant to be provocative and are part of their overall plan to marginalize Arabs in their own land. The government that acts the closest to the Nazis today is the Israeli government. It targets people solely because of their race.

The Jews know who is trying to kill them, it is Palestinians and they can't put the killers in Jail so they put themselves in jail to keep out their tormenters. Notice that Palestines who live in Israel and are not trying to kill Jews have the right to practice their Muslim religion and live freely in Israel. While a Muslim in Palestine that even says good things about Jews will be punished.

old-reb

If the Israelis want to jail those found guilty that is one thing. To punish an entire race of people is quite another.

The U.S. response to provocations by some blacks was not to punish all blacks. The Israeli response is to punish people simply because they are Palestinian.

Originally posted by Frogger
old-reb

If the Israelis want to jail those found guilty that is one thing. To punish an entire race of people is quite another.

In the USA or Israel, if you preach hatred against a race, religion or a person and call for the killing of the aforementioned then you go to jail.
If the Jews could jail Palestine Muhullas and Imams who incited people to kill then the problem would be solved. The Palestine Muslims living under Israel
law are not a danger and are allowed free movement. Jews have the right to live without fear that the Person next to them is going to kill them for being a Jew.


Originally posted by Frogger

The U.S. response to provocations by some blacks was not to punish all blacks. The Israeli response is to punish people simply because they are Palestinian.

Nearly all Palestines are a danger, even the little children are sent out to kill Jews. Israeli Palestines are not excluded from Israel roads or life as they are not brain washed JIhadist.

agreed frogger. and don't forget how they also came into land and said it was their's all because "god" told them so. stole land, cut off water right, etc.. this goes far into the past than the recent past.

funny how what hitler did in europe and what ameri(c)kans did to the first nations keep on repeating itself. hitler must be laughing his ass off right now.



Originally posted by Frogger
I am in agreement with googs on this issue.

Yes, some Palestinians have acted in horrendous ways. There is no justification for suicide bombings and terrorist acts. Those acts, however, are committed by individuals. The terrorist acts of the Israelis are committed as government policy.

Imagine the uproar if the American government routinely leveled the houses of the families of murders even if the other family members knew nothing of what was going on. Imagine the outcry if U.S. soldiers went into black neighborhoods and cut down their orange groves and then bulldozed the land so that whites could move in. Imagine the cries of rage if the American government refused building permits to blacks, wouldn't run electricity or water lines to their neighborhoods while doing so for small white enclaves within the larger black community. Imagine the anger if a leading white political candidate entered the Ebenezer Baptist Church flanked by armed troops disrupting worship services for a provocative photo opportunity to use in his campaign. Imagine the hatred that would be engendered if walls were built around black neighborhoods and certain roads through those neighborhoods were set aside for the use of whites only.

The Israeli actions took place long before the Intifada so the argument that Israel is acting as an oppressor solely as a response to terrorism on the part of some Palestinians does not hold water. Israel confiscated Arab land, refused Arab building permits, blocked Arabs from traveling certain roads, and cut down Arab olive groves long before the Intifada.

Israel has a right to existence but it does not have the right to act like a jackbooted oppressor, totally ignoring the rest of the world.

Originally posted by ivan
agreed frogger. and don't forget how they also came into land and said it was their's all because "god" told them so. stole land, cut off water right, etc.. this goes far into the past than the recent past.

funny how what hitler did in europe and what ameri(c)kans did to the first nations keep on repeating itself. hitler must be laughing his ass off right now.

Some people just don't want the Jews to survive. Hitler gave prefrence for Jew cooking trains over Military trains, that is how important it was to exterminat them. Jews fled to their homeland and the Muslims have been trying to kill them ever since.

Horray for the Jews for finding ways to survive racist exterminators.

To Muslims, Jews are just another kafir to convert or exterminate.

A german friend of mine told me that if the US would leave the Muslims alone that they would end the Jewish problem once and for all.

I take it that he means they would finish what Hitler started and rid the world of Jews like killing the weeds in a garden.

Originally posted by old-reb
Some people just don't want the Jews to survive. Hitler gave prefrence for Jew cooking trains over Military trains, that is how important it was to exterminat them. Jews fled to their homeland and the Muslims have been trying to kill them ever since.

That's an absurd comparison for many reasons. Today it's the Arab Palestinian Christians and Muslims in the camps, not the Jews. Today the Palestianians are using tactics they learned from the Jewish and anti-fascist resistance to fight the Zionists occupiers.

The Jews in Hitler's time were the most assimilated Jews in Europe, many taking non-Jewish mates. By contrast Zionists are ultra-nationalist, blood-and-soil racialists and religious fanatics!

The Palestinians resistance forces are far far from ideal. They've committed extreme blunders and acts that have damaged their own cause. Yet their basic fight is legitimate, whereas Israel is guilty of ethnic clensing and is the source of the conflict.

Horray for the Jews for finding ways to survive racist exterminators.

To Muslims, Jews are just another kafir to convert or exterminate.

A german friend of mine told me that if the US would leave the Muslims alone that they would end the Jewish problem once and for all.

I take it that he means they would finish what Hitler started and rid the world of Jews like killing the weeds in a garden.

If that's true, then why would Jews move to and settle a largely Muslim region of the world?

Why wouldn't they go to a country that would accept them with open arms (like the USA)?

How are the Palestians going to 'finish what Hitler started'? With small arms and slingshots? :rolleyes:

Funny how people in here are argueing for collective punishment.I wonder why the Israeli's demolish homes? Answer - They demolish the homes of suicide bombers And what exactly does that do except punish the family for having a terrorist relative? So If your uncle commits a crime the governemt should take your home and freeze your assets?

Why do they have checkpoints? Answer - To stop suicide bombers That does not explain why Palistinians are harassed excessively at these checkpoints. Why critical patients on teh verge of death are not allowed to go to a hospital through these checkpoints. Why guards at the checkpoints regularly shoot those who get angry about the wait or passerbys...

It's a chicken & and an egg situation perhaps, which comes first? Palestinian sucide bombers or Israeli responses. I think the answer is clear enough. Your right thwe answer is clear enough. The first act of agression in this whole cycle was the outright theft at gunpoint of tha palistinians land that they had lived on for generations.

The only way the palestinians can live in peace with Israel is to stop the suicide bombings. It's very clear and Israel absolutely is in the right on this one. Palestine will be a state & they will live in peace only when they choose to & not before. And you hold all Palistinians responsible for the actions of a very very small minority.

Did you know that at any given time 1 in 8 black men are in legal system? Thats an insanely higher percentage of the population then Palistinian suicide bombers. Do you advocate seperateing Blacks from American society? They obviously have no respect for teh law or their victims. They are a menace to society that should be stopped at any cost. Round 'um up, keep them seperate, they be dangerous...

Why is it that those who say Israel should not exist are 'anti-semitic' while Israel can get away with not even recognizing Palistine?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060212/film_nm/oscars_israel_palestinians_dc

Racist Palestines will kill any Jew they get their hands on so the Jews must seperate themselves from the killers. They want segregation they only want to live. Funny your racist ass accusses all Palistinians of racism. Freudian project much?

Imagine if blacks went into markets and busses with bombs filled with screws nuts and ball bearings just to kill white folks, no matter that a few blacks get killed too. Again your ignorence shapes your opinion. I'm not justifying it but you do know that Israel uses public buses to move its troops around for just such a purpose. They use people as human shields. Just as the illegal 'settlements' are human sheilded land grabs.

Originally posted by old-reb
Horray for the Jews for finding ways to survive racist exterminators.

To Muslims, Jews are just another kafir to convert or exterminate.

.

long before all this shit started, i can't be arsed to look it up right now, the islamic peoples were very tolerant of jews and christians, didn't bother them, and let them do as they pleased.

i know the christians got a lot of stuff started during the crusades and caused a lot of problems. which involved jewish extremeists during that time period and just got everybody royally pissed off at each other. my solution? hopefully it wouldn't spread too much but there are also moral implications of the innocent, but nuke fucking isreal, or let them have at it and get it over with. then maybe the rest of the world can move on and stop worrying about the damn middle east "problem". thye are 3 religions, with extremeists all around, politics, and dumb ass religious history all intent on killing each other and ready to drag the rest of the world into it too.

The Wall in a Week - The Ghettos tighten around the Walled-in Palestinian villages
Latest News, Palestinian Grassroots Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign, February 28th, 2006


The last week in the West Bank was marked by further steps to complete the ghettoization of the Palestinian people. Life for the people and the farmers in the North is more and more confined to the limits of the ghetto walls with cultivation of their lands almost completely jeopardized. In Bethlehem, efforts to destroy the district are accelerated. House demolitions are leaving people homeless and making space for Zionist colonization. The announcement by the Occupation forces that the apartheid road system will be institutionalized further traps Palestinians in the ghettos of their villages and cities. In the face of this reality, Palestinian resistance has continued unabated and is bound to rise.

Apartheid Roads

The Occupation announced a plan to officially bar Palestinians from the settler road networks that cuts through the West Bank, partly built on land expropriated from Palestinians and partly by taking over ancient Palestinian roads and declaring them available for Jewish-only use. This will finalize the ghetto system created by the Wall, the fortified checkpoints and the settlements, imposing a form of apartheid that goes far beyond anything seen before.

Land Confiscation and Isolation

On the 20th of February, the Occupation forces started to build a military base on 80 dunums of olive groves in west Tura (Jenin district). Confiscation orders were issued for 2 dunums and 480 square meters of village lands isolated by the Wall. (For more see: http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/1098.shtml)

Also, the Occupation has confiscated 41 dunums and 300 square meters of Beit Hanina lands (Jerusalem) for the construction of the Apartheid Wall. This section of the Wall will imprison 4 buildings with 300 inhabitants between a settlers-only road and the Wall and isolated them in the ghetto that the Occupation wants to exclude from Jerusalem.

On the 18th of February, in west Bethlehem, the Occupation shifted the entrance gate for Betar settlement and the checkpoint 400 meter closer to Husan village and road 60. This move effectively isolates 1800 dunums of land from the people of Husan.

In Tulkarem district, the isolation of lands behind the Wall is making the farming of the area more difficult every day. Even those land owners that had been given permits to reach their lands are now forced to wait for hours at the gates, where they suffer humiliation and are often sent back.

In Jenin, the Occupation has distributed what they call “long-term permits” only to cancel them again for this season. At the moment only 20 out of 700 farmers that demanded access to their lands are allowed to pass the gates.

Land Destruction

On 18th of February, in Wadi Fuqeen village, west Bethlehem, the Occupation bulldozers started uprooting trees to the south of the village. In order to connect Betar and Geva’ot settlements, 50 olive, apple and citrus trees have been ripped up.

A few kilometers away, in al Khadr, west Bethlehem, the Occupation has accelerated work on the Wall and the tunnel that should control all movement in and out of the Palestinian villages isolated behind the Wall in the area. The Wall will encircle the village from three sides.

On the 21st of February, in Bethlehem, the Occupation bulldozers continued the destruction in the area near Rachel’s Tomb (Billal mosque northern Bethlehem) and the western part of Aida refugee camp. With the pretext of expanding Rachel’s Tomb, the Zionist forces have now destroyed around 6 dunums of land belonging to the Sansure and Musalam families.

House Demolitions

On the 22nd of February, the Occupation bulldozers destroyed a children’s playground in Azzun, east Qalqilya district. Under the pretext of lacking "permission" - a tactic frequently used to destroy Palestinian homes and buildings - Occupation Forces arrived in east Qalqiliya at 9 am to destroy the playground that should have been inaugurated a few days later. The playground was built on 7.5 dunums of land. (For more see: http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/1099.shtml)

The same day, the Occupation sent their bulldozers to demolish the house of Hamuda Mheisen in Funduq village, east Qalqiliya. The “permit” tactic was used once again in order to completely destroy the structure of the house on 300 square meters of land. After having declared the Western part of Funduq a closed military area, the bulldozers began the demolition. Occupation Forces then continued their trail of violence in the neighboring village of Jinsafut and demolished a building belonging to Tawfeeq Galeb Basher. (For more see: http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/1099.shtml)

A huge campaign against Palestinian villages throughout east Qalqiliya has been planned by Occupation Forces, who have distributed approximately 62 demolition orders in Hajja, Funduq and Jinsafut villages. This will allow the further expansion of the settlement blocs of Qedumim and Qarne Shomron, while continuing the ghettoization of Palestinians. (For more see: http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/1099.shtml)

On the 24th, the occupation distributed 8 demolition orders for homes in Brukin village, west Salfit. The pretext was missing building permits, yet the fact that the houses are located along the path of the Wall to be constructed in the area makes the ploy all the more evident.

Popular Resistance

On the 22nd of February, the popular committee of the Grassroots Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign - in coordination with Palestinian NGOs - mobilized a protest at Bardala terminal in the north of the Jordan Valley. Channeling their anger at the Zionist campaign to annex and ethnically cleanse the Valley, Palestinians revealed their refusal to end their resistance to the Occupation. As retaliation, and to further intimidate Palestinian communities, the following day the Occupation sent their bulldozers to attack Bardala. At 5:30 am, the Occupation Forces started to demolish 16 shelters that farmers use to sell their crops along road 90, which leads from Mehole settlement to the terminal. The water pipe irrigating the lands near Bardala was destroyed the same day. (For more information see: http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/1101.shtml)

This Friday, in Aboud, around 250 demonstrators joined the weekly demonstration and marched to their land southwest of the village, where the Occupation is uprooting the trees that are the source of livelihood for Aboud. The Occupation forces, once again, tried to prevent people from reaching their land, but the villagers from Aboud were determined to move to their fields. As clashes broke out, the military shot rubber bullets, live ammunition, and tear gas at the crowd. Dawood al Ahj, in his early 20s, was injured by rubber bullets.

The same day, in Beit Sira, some 300 people gathered to defend their land, which is being uprooted by the Occupation bulldozers to make room for the Apartheid Wall. As the protestors reached the area, the Occupation forces blocked their path and clamped down violently on the crowd. Tear gas, rubber bullets, and live ammunition were pumped into the demonstration without any regard for the elderly or children. Many protestors suffered breathing problems and one young man was injured when he was shot in the chest with a rubber bullet.

The Friday demonstration in Bil’in again drew crowds to protest against the destruction of their lands. The villagers reached their lands, where they held speeches vowing that their resistance would not stop. Meanwhile, the youth burned tires to block the Occupation army.

christians, didn't bother them, and let them do as they pleased. yet another misconception...At least 10% of Palistinians are Christian and live in peace with their muslim neighbors.

Heres an interesting essay-

SUICIDE BOMBERS:
What is theologically and morally wrong with suicide bombings?
A Palestinian Christian perspective
http://www.sabeel.org/old/news/cstone25/suicidebombers.htm

What is the situation of Christians in the Middle East today?

* Types of Persecutions:

There are various types of persecutions of Christians in the Middle East. We can sort them in two:

a) Religious persecution of individuals (human rights abuse): This persecution is conducted against individuals because of their religious affiliation. In Saudi Arabia and Iran, for examples, individuals are punished for displaying crosses or stars of David, jailed for praying in public, and in some cases punished by death, for not complying with the religious tenants. In these countries, as well as in Egypt and Sudan, converts to Christianity are sentenced to death.

b) Political oppression of religious communities (ethno-religious cleansing): In this case, ruling regimes are oppressing entire religious communities on political, security, and economic levels. The objectives of such oppression is to reduce the influence of the Christian communities, and in certain cases, to reduce it physically.
The ethno-religious cleansing of Christian peoples in the Middle East alternate between military suppression and political oppression. In Egypt, the large Coptic nation is systematically discriminated against on the constitutional, political, administrative, and cultural levels. Moreover para-military fundamentalist groups are conducting pogroms against the Christians, which includes burning Churches and assassinating civilians.
In Sudan, the stated objective of the ruling regime is to Arabise and Islamize the African Christian and Animist population of the south. Particularly since 1992, the Sudanese government has been waging a military campaign aimed at dispersing, enslaving, and subduing the southern Blacks.
Last but not least, let us review the third largest Christian community of the region, the Lebanese, who are under political and security oppression in their homeland.
Under occupation by a Moslem power, Syria, the Christian community is systematically suppressed by the Syrian-controlled regime in Beirut.
The smaller Christian groups do no better. In Iraq, for example, the Assyrians are another group targeted by the Saddam regime. Growing numbers of Assyrians have been assassinated by radical fundamentalist groups.

Slavery:

Religious persecution of Christians in the Middle East has reached extreme forms of human degradation: In Sudan, abundant reports by international human rights organizations have documented the enslavement by the northern fundamentalist forces of southern African Christians. According to the reports and experts, there are today between 600,000 and one million Black slaves from Sudan, who have either been taken to the north of that country to work as domestics or tending farms, or sold in other Arab countries.

The authors of persecution:

a. The religious persecution and oppression is normally conducted by one religious group against other religious group: for Christians, this case has been the case in Egypt, Sudan, Iran, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Pakistan. Of course, persecution can also conducted by members of one particular group against other members of the same religious group on the basis of religious fundamentalism (Algeria, Afghanistan, Iran), or racism (Mauritania), but this is not the topic of today's discussion.

b. Persecution of ethno-religious groups, the Mideast Christians in particular, is conducted by legal governments (Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Sudan) or by organizations (National Islamic Front in Sudan, Front Islamique de Salut, the Hizbollah of Lebanon, etc.)
- Prof. Walid Phares, before the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Near East and South Asia Subcommittee on "Religious Persecution in the Middle East." Washington DC, April 29, 1997

* Iran is now murdering Christian leaders.

The Reverend Mehdi Dibaj had converted from Islam to Christianity 45 years ago. On 21/12/93 he was sentenced to death on charges of apostasy. Released on appeal his body was found on 5 July 1994. The Reverend Haik Mehr, Superintendent of the Church of the Assemblies of God, who had campaigned against Dibaj's death sentence was found dead on 20/1/94. On 2 July 1994 the body of the Reverend Tatavous Michaelian, Chairman of the Council of Protestant Ministers in Iran was found with several gun shots to the head.

19/7/98 The GIA has claimed responsibility for the death of Berber singer Lounes Matoub. "It is common knowledge that the slain Lounes Matoub was among the most stubborn enemies of religion and the Mujahideen (Holy warriors)", their statement read.


How many Christians remain in the Middle East?

* a. The largest Christian community of the Middle East is found in Egypt, which has ten to twelve million Copts. This Christian group comprises 1/5 to 1/6 of the country's population. Egypt is also a major recipient of U.S. foreign aid, despite blatant violations of religious freedom which occurs weekly in this country.

b. The Southern Sudanese are about six million. Christians are the largest monotheist group.

c. The Christians of Lebanon: about 1.5 million still reside there and more than 6 million live in the diaspora, including about a quarter of that number in the United States. Among the Lebanese Christians, the largest group is the Maronites, which are Catholics which follow Rome. Other smaller religious entities include the Melkites and Orthodox Christians.

d. The Assyro-Chaldeans: Around one million in Iraq with large concentrations in the Kurdish zone.

e. The Christians of Syria: About 1.2 million including Aramaics, Armenians, Melkites and Orthodox.

f. There are small but significant Christian communities in other countries such as Iran, Jordan, Israel, and less significant in Turkey, Algeria. By law there are no Christians in Saudi Arabia.


What has been the situation for Christians in Israel/Palestine?

* In the last census conducted by the British mandatory authorities in 1947, there were 28,000 Christians in Jerusalem. The census conducted by Israel in 1967 (after the Six Day War) showed just 11,000 Christians remaining in the city. This means that some 17,000 Christians (or 61%) left during the days of King Hussein's rule over Jerusalem. Their place was filled by Muslim Arabs from Hebron.

During the British mandate period, Bethlehem had a Christian majority of 80%. Today, under Palestinian rule, it has a Muslim majority of 80%.

Few Christians remain in the Palestinian-controlled parts of the West Bank. Those who can - emigrate, and there will soon be virtually no Christians in the Palestinian Authority controlled areas. The Palestinian Authority is trying to conceal the fact of massive Christian emigration from areas under its control.

- from PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS (Prime Minister's Office ) November, 1997

* As a result of unceasing persecution, the Christians are forced to behave like any oppressed minority which aims to survive. Christians in PA-controlled areas have taken to praying in secret. The wisdom of survival compels them to assess the "balance of fear", according to which they have nothing to fear from Israel but face an existential threat from the Palestinian Authority and their Muslim neighbours.

They act accordingly: they seek to "find favour" through unending praise and adulation for the Muslim ruler together with public denunciations of the "Zionist entity."

- Middle East Digest - Nov/Dec 1997

* Time magazine (April 23, 1990): "After years of relative harmony, friction between Christians and their fellow-Arabs [in the disputed territories] has intensified sharply with the rise of Muslim fundamentalism." (Time went on to cite various examples of Muslims pressuring Christian Arabs).

* The Jerusalem Post (May 2, 1991): "Muslim activists have been trying to convert Bethlehem, home of some of Christianity's holiest sites and once predominantly Christian, into a Muslim town. In contrast to the world-wide fuss over the purchase of a hostel in Jerusalem's 'Christian Quarter' by Jews, this steady and often violent encroachment has met with a thunderous silence in the Christian world. The pattern of increased violence has been unmistakable. Last December 21, a school for nuns was torched. During the first week in March, there was an attempt to break through the wall of the Carmelite monastery, followed by a break-in at a Christian school. On March 3 vandals desecrated Bethlehem's Greek Orthodox cemetery, removing crosses and disinterring and mutilating corpses ..."

* La Terra Sancta (A Vatican publication, dated 1991): "The Christians are abandoning the Middle East ... [although] the Jewish presence has alarmed the Arabs ... more than anything else, the commercial, cultural and technological contacts of recent years have caused a confrontation between Western civilisation and Middle Eastern culture, or, as is commonly known, Islamic culture against Judeo-Christian."

500lb

i was referring to a time period before the crusades. i believe the crusades began all this tripe we have to deal with today.




Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
yet another misconception...At least 10% of Palistinians are Christian and live in peace with their muslim neighbors.

Heres an interesting essay-

SUICIDE BOMBERS:
What is theologically and morally wrong with suicide bombings?
A Palestinian Christian perspective
http://www.sabeel.org/old/news/cstone25/suicidebombers.htm

Old-reb I want to know where u get ur sources.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5aVUZAX6wA&search=IDF
WARNING: VERY GRAPHIC

Originally posted by googs
Old-reb I want to know where u get ur sources.


http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/

LOL...no wonder. Why don't you go to an Islamic website to learn about Islam. It's weird that you'll go to a website speaks against Islam to learn about Islam. Try going to Islamic websites such as these:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/mainpage/indexe.php

You should take this test. Juding from what I know, you'll prolly fail. There very easy questions.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/Prophet/Man_Message/article12.shtml

Muslims like to make up their own truth as a form of Jihad.

They will not even admit that there was a holocaust and they blame the Jews for being racist when the clear truth is that the Muslims are racist against the Jews. How can you expect them to tell the truth?

Now wonder you come off as a racist scumfuck, all the cites you get your information from are racist...

You cannot justify sending your own kids into crowded areas strapped with bombs & nails. There is no possible justification for it. People that do that & promote it - have no rights, have no cause, no future & deserve absolutely nothing but oppression.

All of Israels actions stem from this threat.

So, say what you like but until the palestinians stop this act & declare they will no longer do it, then they get everything they deserve.

500lb you are so one sided it's incredible. It doesn't matter what it is - suicide bombs, beheading journalists etc - you ignore all those acts, effectively condoning them as ok. Then you focus on everything Israel or the US does and jump up & down.

Just like you cant justify the murder of innocent palestinian children.

I can justify it - very easily. Israel never has any intent to kill innocent children, and if the palestinians did not send their own children to blow themselves up, then there would be no palestinian children accidentally killed. It's a simple thing to understand & if you were not so brainwashed yourself then you would comprehend it. Be clear - the root of the problem is palestinian evil.

Given that palestinians send their own children in to die, they have no right to talk about their children being killed by israel.

Look up accident in the dictionary & then look up intentionally. In the difference you will find clearly why Isreal is 100% justified & the palestinians supporting sucide bombers, so long as they kill their own children, have no justification & are beneath animals.

Isreal is responding to a threat. The palestinian actions are pure evil.

Wow...I didnt read the rest of your post after u said u can justify it. I dont need to read a post by a guy that reminds me of Hitler. There is absolutely no reasoning or justification for killing innocent children whether they be Israeli or Palestinian. They are children. I really do not care for your supposed justification. When any child dies, it is wrong. FOr you to say their is a justification for killing children is wrong. For you guys to insult Islam and any other religon is wrong.

I absolutely agree that there is no reasoning or justification for killing innocent children. You are the one who repeatedly seems able to casually and without remorse justify killing children.

It is the palestinians that justify the killing of innocent children. They kill their own children by strapping bombs onto them and they consequently kill innocent Israeli children. They do this by planning - they methodically plan for the death of children & others to further their own agenda. That is pure evil.

The isreali's do not plan the death of children. If any children are killed it is by accident when the target is something else. That is very very different & that is the only justification I refer to in response to your post where you refuse to see the reality of sucide bombing & always try to create a justification for evil.

The problem is you are blinded by a cause and you do not see the evil inherent in suicide bombing, you think it is justified & in that you are far far closer to Hitler than I. Do you even comprehend how hypocritical you are? I'm sure Hitler had a justification in his head when he sent jews to the gas chamber, just as you justify bombs being strapped onto brainwashed children. There is little difference.

I have not insulted Islam, any comments I have made about Islam are simply to comment on what is done in the name of Islam.

Lets also be clear, the vast majority of muslims, including palestinians are good people. As always it is the few that have hijacked their good name for something bad.

The Palestinians kill 10 children by strapping bombs to their chests and sending them to die.

In the same day, the US and Israel drop 10 bombs, killing 30.

At the end of the day, forty children have died. Which matters more, the methods or the perpetrator?

The death of one person is a tragedy, the death of a thousand is a statistic. The death of three thousand is grounds for the wholesale slaughter of ten more. Does it really matter how they were killed?

A child puts his fingers into an electrical socket & is killed.
A child is killed by a murderer

2 dead children, which is worse? Your argument is bunk.

Also - your numbers are just way off.

Of course they are off. I pulled them out of my ass. It's not like I have any real numbers to go by. Nobody is keeping track of Palestinian deaths, for a very good reason.

We can put safety plugs onto outlets. We can lock up murderers. What can we do about those who kill dozens of children from the safety of their firing cockpits when they have the endorsements of the people who've they convinced there can be justification for such violence?

So what's the solution? The Isreali's should just sit back & let the palestinians kill their citizens with suicide bombs? That can be the only logical conclusion to your reasoning.

You criticise people for agreeing to such responses as reasonable, yet you yourself give your endorsement to the mindless act called sucidie bombing. How can you be such a hypocrite?

Isreal have a duty to protect their citizens, if that means going after terrorists using the weapons they have, then they are going to do it & who can blame them?

If the attacks on Israel stop, then they would have no reason to defend themselves.

One thing I am sure all can agree on is the senseless killing in the middle east is truly a tragedy.

Diplomacy is the only solution - yet Hammas doesn't even accept Isreal has a right to exist. Great starting point.

That can be the only logical conclusion to your reasoning.

Amusing. How about this? Let the Israelites build their wall, but ensure strict UN supervision to ensure that Palestinian settlements are minimally affected, with all relocation expenses paid for by Israel. They can guard the perimeter any way they want afterwards. No more expansions, no more shells, no more war. Acts of violence by Palestinians should be prosecuted as domestic crimes, with Israel's highly capable intelligence system put to the task of rooting out terror cells and bringing them to justice under the auspices of law, whenever possible. When it isn't, well, a few dead terrorists should send the message that Israel is willing to defend itself without raising international ire. The death penalty is a perfectly acceptable option for terrorists.

It isn't just Hamas. I don't accept Israel's right to exist. But it does. And the escalation tactic of Israel's retaliations doesn't impress me in the least. But it isn't going away. Let us at least stop the more senseless violences.

You are nothing but a utopian dreamer, one who also finds a way to rationalize suicide bombings. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

All such issues as this are complex, certainly not everything Israel does is right, but when you bring it back to what is clear, it is clear that sending your own kids to blow themselves up is a hideous crime far beyond any crime Israel may have committed in defence. Everything else pales in comparision because you have to have a core of pure evil to send your children to their deaths in that fashion. Amusing to you perhaps but not to me.

The fact that you yourself do not believe Israel has a right to exist means we can very easily discount anything you say from this point on.

Its a matter of right & wrong, good & evil & you clearly prefer the latter & then call it good in the interests of being hip to a cause.

Wow. The real Drew speaks. I didn't know real solutions to problems were this powerful.

A utopian dreamer, huh? A simpleton who cannot handle such complex concepts. One who defends suicide bombings. Do you always hide behind such epithets? Hip to a cause? Do you know how you sound? Discount whatever I say? You do that anyway. Do you think that it will be any different now?

I honestly really don't give a fuck about the world, certainly not enough to go join some useless "cause". I have my interests and my philosophies and I explore them the best I can, which means parading them in front of dozens of people to read and comment on. An unrepentant armchair philosopher. I say what I mean and I don't mince words. I do not believe Israel should even exist. Big deal. To you, the war against terror is a real part of your life. To me, it is an intellectual exercise. To me, it's all a big sham, but to be honest with you, I really don't give a fuck. In my opinion, my attitude is the far better one for dealing with terrorism because I am not blinded by the emotions that lead to shitty decisions. Because I am not blinded by irrationality, I can discuss such things in a way that don't lead to stupid fuck-ups. And it's right.

That is why you refused to attack my solution, because you have too much invested in your black and white ideals. You are just as much of an idealist as I am, you just believe we can get there through bloodshed. It is no different.

Excuse me. I have babies to kill.

The problem with your logic napster is they pretty much always boil down to "if we could just all get along" - but you betray even that simple viewpoint because you are significantly biased. A age old bias for the underdog without any review of what the underdog may be doing.

When somebody calls things how they are - ie suicide bombings are evil because it not only aims for and results in random innocent deaths but the delivery is the attackers own children sent to their deaths, then you by some strange rationalle known only to you, you equate that to mean that person sees only bloodshed as a solution. It's beyond bizzare.

You may not be blinded by emotions, but you are certainly blind.

Your quaint schoolboy solutions don't impress me at all & they never have because they are always without fail the same in essence no matter what the subject, ultimately meaningless and lacking of any root in reality.

The problem with your logic napster is they pretty much always boil down to "if we could just all get along"

What are you talking about? My solution specifically details that Isrealis and Palestinians do not get along. That is why they should be able to build their wall. Because no matter what we do, suicide bombings may never cease. Is the solution to shell more towns and kill more kids? No! Building the wall allows Israel to defend itself from such unsophisticated attacks. It worked for China, it can work for Israel. But it should not be done inhumanely, which is why we need oversight on the process to make sure innocent Palestinians are not harmed in the process. Between that, and a significant portion of the Israeli intelligence force, widely regarded as the best in the world, on the problem, they should be fine.

And the lack of expansions and further bloody incursions on Israels behalf will shift worldwide opinion back in its favor. Which puts pressure now on the Palestinians to make peace before people really start to lose sympathy for them. Kicking Israel out isn't feasible, and it never was. All calling for it is is a political maneuver, one that will lose power as soon as Israelis stop murdering them by the hundreds. Which opens the door for diplomacy. As soon as the Palestinians lose their privileged opinion among the rest of the world, they will see that their days of violence are numbered.

Do you know why Hamas is revered throughout the Arab world, Drew? Because they don't just blow themselves up. Any fool can do that. They also build churches, feed the hungry, and provide for a semblance of order. They have increased literacy in areas where they are active. Bet you don't like hearing that, even though you probably already knew. Once the tactic of suicide bombing ceases to be effective, and starts to hurt their credibility, they just might stop doing it. Or not. But shelling villages definitely isn't cutting the mustard.

When somebody calls things how they are - ie suicide bombings are evil because it not only results in random deaths but the delivery is the attackers own children sent to their deaths, then you assume that means that person sees only bloodshed as a solution.

Wonderful leap of logic there, bud. No, I say you only see bloodshed as an option because you patently refused to even look at a solution that doesn't involve it. Instead you chose an amusingly dramatic tack on how youthfully idealistic I am, quick to cop to a cause.

Trust me Drew, the only reason I would ever cop to a cause is to meet women. Same reason I would ever go to church. I don't believe in causes, Drew.

googs' article dealt with the confiscation of Palestinian land and the setting aside of certain roads in the Palestinian territory for the sole use of Jews.

Those who are trying to justify this land grab site suicide bombers.

The confiscation and cutting down of Arab owned olive groves began long before the Intifada. Those groves took generations to grow and they were bulldozed in a day. The refusal to give Palestinians building permits began long before the Intifada. The denial of electricity and water to Palestinians began long before the Intifada. The taking of Arab farms and private houses in order to house Jews began long before the Intifada.

Yes, the Intifada is terrible. It is wrong to kill civilians. It is also wrong to place an iron boot on the neck of an entire people for no reason other than wanting to create Eretz Yisrael.

500lb you are so one sided it's incredible. It doesn't matter what it is - suicide bombs, beheading journalists etc - you ignore all those acts, effectively condoning them as ok. Then you focus on everything Israel or the US does and jump up & down. No I don't. I've denounced the murder of any innocent. I was not defending suicide bombing. I was merely showing that the IDF using buses was an attemp to use Jews as human sheilds.

And the reason why I jusmp on the US and Israel so much more readily is because it is my tax dollars that are being used to support such terrorist actions. Noneof my money ever makes it into the hands of palistinian terrorists; Just US and Israeli terrorists.

But hey if all you can respond back with is ever "terrorist supporter and anti-american" it just shows how weak your arguments really are...

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_15.shtml

I would post the article on here but I don't want old-reb to complain. BTW, it seems that my posting of the article about Israeli Apartheid made some ppl here think that I support sucide bombers. Just to clear things up, I don't.

There is no God in the Middle East, that fucker gone fishing.

:confused:

Why else wouldn't He have stepped in and sorted shit out? Bastard's sittin' on the Caspian Sea with a 12 pack of Coor's, laughing His holy ass off.

This is fucking ridiculous:
++++++++++++++++++++++++

UK: Solution to war crime lawsuits near

British Foreign Ministry formulating legal procedure to prevent issuing arrest warrants against IDF officers visiting country
Itamar Eichner

Britain has informed Israel it is close to finding a solution that will enable IDF officers to visit the UK without fear of getting arrested due to war crime lawsuits filed against them, Israel's leading newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth reported Monday.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3224397,00.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Yeah sure we should prosecute war crimes...except in Israel of course...

Originally posted by googs
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_15.shtml

I would post the article on here but I don't want old-reb to complain. BTW, it seems that my posting of the article about Israeli Apartheid made some ppl here think that I support sucide bombers. Just to clear things up, I don't.

The wall makes the Palestines mad because they can't get in to kill the Jews. Since the wall has been going up, almost no suicide bombers have gotten through, altho many have tried.

The wall is unfortuanate, but if palestinians had not been blowing themselves up it would not have been built.

The palestinians can thank themselves for the wall. They are lucky Isreal is not making them pay for it's construction.

With what, camels?

Originally posted by Napsterbater
With what, camels?

They could sell some ak-47, rpgs and Kassum rockets, and suicide bomb jackets and spend the money on civilian needs. Then there would be no need for anybody to pay for the wall because there would be no need for it.

They already do.

From Wikipedia's HAMAS entry:

Support for the Palestinian population

The organization is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Since its formation in 1987, Hamas has conducted numerous social, political, and military actions. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to an article by Israeli scholar Reuven Paz, published by the conservative US think-tank Council on Foreign Relations, approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities. [6] These programs are viewed variously as part of a sincere social development agenda, an integrated para-state policy, as propaganda and recruitment exercises, or both. In any case, Hamas has significantly increased literacy in areas where it is active. Hamas also funds a number of other charitable activities, primarily in the Gaza Strip. These include religious institutions, medical facilities, and social needs of the area's residents. The work of Hamas in these fields supplements that provided by the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA). The charitable trust Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development was accused in December 2001 of funding Hamas.

Hamas is also well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah.

Hello Napster,


Did Hamas also teach them racial and religious tolerance and to love thy neighbor?


Last update - 07:19 15/02/2006
Hamas suicide bombers' videotape: 'We drink Jews' blood'
By Nadav Shragai

A Hamas Web site recently published the videotape wills of two suicide bombers, with two main messages: One is directed to the Jews whose blood Hamas pledges to drink until they flee from the land of the Muslims, and the other is devoted to a mother who helps her son plan a suicide attack, according to Palestinian Media Watch, which presents the video shown on the Hamas site after its victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections.

The video shows Idham Ahmed Majila and Maumin Rajab Rajab, who blew themselves up at the Karni crossing at the end of 2004. "My message to the hated Jews: There is no God but Allah," Majala says. "We will hunt you everywhere, when you wake and when you sleep. We are a blood-drinking people and we know that there is no better blood than Jewish blood.

"We will not leave you alone until we quench ourselves with your blood and we will quench the thirst of our children with your blood. We will not rest until you leave the lands of the Muslims."


Rajab, the second terrorist, says: "By the life of Allah, we will destroy you. We will blow you up. We will take our revenge on you. We will purify our land of you, pigs, who have defiled our land. By the life of Allah, we will take our vengeance. We are carrying out this operation as harsh revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs."

The video also shows a good-bye scene between mother and son as he gets ready to leave for the attack, with the mother helping him put on the explosive vest. In the background is a song, "O beloved mother, my mother. Don't cry for us."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/683165.html

People are failing to differentiate between Palestinian terrorists and Palestinians. It is not only Palestinians in the occupied territories who are discriminated against but also those who live within Israel proper and who's families have lived there since before the inception of the state of Israel.

Originally posted by Frogger
People are failing to differentiate between Palestinian terrorists and Palestinians. It is not only Palestinians in the occupied territories who are discriminated against but also those who live within Israel proper and who's family have lived there since before the inception of the state of Israel.


Even with Israel discrimination they are treated much better in Israel than in Palestine territorties. Hmmm

They vote with their feet and they vote to live in Israel instead of with fanatics.

The Jews have to exercise some control as the radicals are constantly trying to get the Israeli Muslims to rise against Israel.


Religious War against "Infidels"
inherent to PA religious ideology

By Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook - December 26, 2005

A poll published this week and reported in Palestinian newspapers found that 65% of Palestinians "support Al-Qaeda actions in the USA and Europe." Religiously-motivated Al-Qaeda attacks against those referred to as "Infidels" have killed thousands of Americans and Europeans. Why would the Palestinian population so overwhelmingly support the murder of Christians?

http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm

Did Hamas also teach them racial and religious tolerance and to love thy neighbor?

Jews lived in peace in the Middle East for many many years, until the end of the first Arab-Israeli war. It is possible for them to co-exist together.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Jews lived in peace in the Middle East for many many years, until the end of the first Arab-Israeli war. It is possible for them to co-exist together.

Hamas is not calling for co-existing they are calling for driving the Jews into the sea.

Please read my last argument with Brooks. I have already said that it was a political maneuver and nothing more. It is not possible to do so, and it never was. All it serves to do is fire up their audience and draw recruits. When suicide bombs cease to be effective, so will the "drive them into the sea" rhetoric.

http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif

So Trav, if you owned a thousand acre ranch and someone moved into a corner of it and started beating your kids you would be alright with it because you had other kids living on other parts of the big ranch.

How about if they were shooting at your house?

you mean, If someone who used to live there for 5000 years came back and took up residence and my kids went in there and stared slapping their kids around? dont forget whose land it was before the muslims moved in, we can go back as far as you want to go.

Trav

If you are going to go back to when the Israelites first came into the area why not go further back to the people who were there before them. How about the Cananites, the Jebusites, the Edamites and other indiginous peoples?

The Palestinians have lived there for hundreds of years. Their ancestors have lived there for thousands of years. They weren't always Muslims but they have always lived there even when the Kingdom of Israel was at its greatest.

The palestinians can thank themselves for the wall. They are lucky Isreal is not making them pay for it's construction. heh...yeah...because your the one paying for it withyour US taxdollars, sucker....

Besides that the wall can be climbed barehanded. It stops no one. I've seen numerous anti-wall protests where they climb it without any equipment at all.

And of course Israel used the wall as an excuse to steal a whole shitload of fertile land from its rightful owners. But of course neither of you care about that since SOME palistinians blow themselves up you like to blame ALL palistinians.

BTW Clloective punishment is illegal. But hey we all know how concerned you two are about that...

Oh and funny how both of you just glossed over the fact that Britian is looking to exempt Israelis from War crimes proceedings...Way to prove your outright hypocracy.

"When any palistinian break international law all palistinians must be punished. But if Israelis do its fine to just look the other way."

De- fucking-sgusting.

Originally posted by Travh20
you mean, If someone who used to live there for 5000 years came back and took up residence and my kids went in there and stared slapping their kids around? dont forget whose land it was before the muslims moved in, we can go back as far as you want to go.

In that case, change his hypothetical to Chief Running Bull occupying a corner of your ranch and beating your kids.

With modern artillery!

Too add on 500's post, Not only are American's paying for the wall, they are also supporting de facto segragation which is illegal in America. Hypocracy at its best!

Actually the US government officially doesn't support the wall & is duducting it's cost from any aid given to Isreal.

Hmmm....Highly Unlikely

Originally posted by Frogger
Trav

If you are going to go back to when the Israelites first came into the area why not go further back to the people who were there before them. How about the Cananites, the Jebusites, the Edamites and other indiginous peoples?

The Palestinians have lived there for hundreds of years. Their ancestors have lived there for thousands of years. They weren't always Muslims but they have always lived there even when the Kingdom of Israel was at its greatest.


show me a mention of "palestinians" in Exodus and I will believe you. If you are going by names then they have no claim. If you are going by race, then there are no palestinians, those people are arabs. Jews are not arabs. Arabs did not come from there they came from arabia. either way you slice it, the jews have rights to that land. But hey, whatever, I honestly dont have the energy to care anymore.

Originally posted by googs
Hmmm....Highly Unlikely

what's unlikely? You ever removing the blinders? If so - yes I agree, unlikely.

Originally posted by googs
Too add on 500's post, Not only are American's paying for the wall, they are also supporting de facto segragation which is illegal in America. Hypocracy at its best!

Role playing as victim: Claiming to be 'the victim’ of religious discrimination and intolerance during debate or discussion is another form of distraction and ‘outwitting’.


http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/Feature%20articles/02-12-2002.asp

Im really not gonna read everthing on that site....If you wanna go ahead and summarize it for me. Feel free.

Originally posted by googs
Im really not gonna read everthing on that site....If you wanna go ahead and summarize it for me. Feel free.

I only provided the link as a reference to the quote that applies to you comment.

Originally posted by old-reb
Role playing as victim: Claiming to be 'the victim’ of religious discrimination and intolerance during debate or discussion is another form of distraction and ‘outwitting’.


http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/Feature%20articles/02-12-2002.asp


Is that what you guys think? Hmmm...First it was women, then Native Americans, then Blacks, then the Japanese, Muslims. Whoa! I guess they were akk "claiming" to be victims of discrimination.

The list goes on and on. I didn't want to list all of them.

Originally posted by googs
Is that what you guys think? Hmmm...First it was women, then Native Americans, then Blacks, then the Japanese, Muslims. Whoa! I guess they were akk "claiming" to be victims of discrimination.

The list goes on and on. I didn't want to list all of them.

Another Muslim tatic of taqiyya and kitman.


Diversion: For example, questions relating to the 9/11 terrorists attacks will be diverted by a causally irrelevant counter reference to the plight of the Palestinians, the nefarious role of Israel and US foreign policy and support for Israel as ‘causes’ of terrorism.

Anti-Semitism, a core belief of Islamic fundamentalism is also skillfully diverted by misleading and exaggerated historical references to the alleged status enjoyed by Jews and non-believers under Islamic rule, thereby deflecting critical examination of the virulent contemporary Islamic anti-Semitism.

Can any jew move to Israel whenever they want for free while Palistinians that have lived there for generations but were violently driven out of the coutry at gun point in 1967 cannot return?

The answer is yes.

Israel proclaims itself as a Jewish state. It is therefore desciminatory by its own description. Your denials are astounding. Its obvious you have extremely pre-concieve bias' when it comes to Israel and refuse to change them no matter what evidence is presented.

Role playing as victim: Claiming to be 'the victim’ of religious discrimination and intolerance during debate or discussion is another form of distraction and ‘outwitting’.

Heres a picture I'm sure you've never seen. "Jewish settlers" attacking a Palistinian woman with impunity, right in front of the IDF...

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6250/2182/1600/pulling%20scarf%20off%20woman.jpg

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Can any jew move to Israel whenever they want for free while Palistinians that have lived there for generations but were violently driven out of the coutry at gun point in 1967 cannot return?

The answer is yes.

Israel proclaims itself as a Jewish state. It is therefore desciminatory by its own description. Your denials are astounding. Its obvious you have extremely pre-concieve bias' when it comes to Israel and refuse to change them no matter what evidence is presented.



Heres a picture I'm sure you've never seen. "Jewish settlers" attacking a Palistinian woman with impunity, right in front of the IDF...

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6250/2182/1600/pulling%20scarf%20off%20woman.jpg

Stupid Jews, kicking her ass and ripping her head scarf off.
Muslims know that one takes off the whole head, not just the scarf.

Here, let the Muslims show you how to do it.



She went to a Christian school (http://www.laughyourheadoff.org/headless1.jpg)


Three Indonesian girls beheaded
By Tim Johnston
BBC News, Jakarta

Three girls have been beheaded and another badly injured as they walked to a Christian school in Indonesia.

They were walking through a cocoa plantation near the city of Poso in central Sulawesi province when they were attacked.

This is an area that has a long history of religious violence between Muslims and Christians.


http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4843/1885/1600/r3443127481.jpg

Old-reb...you insulting Islam and the people on this board only makes you the villan.

Originally posted by googs
Old-reb...you insulting Islam and the people on this board only makes you the villan.

It is insulting to me to see all the crimes in the name of Islam and have someone claim that they are the religion of love and Peace. It just doesn't compute.

Why don't you try to tame down your Muslim brothers so that they won't have such a bad name.

Originally posted by googs
Old-reb...you insulting Islam and the people on this board only makes you the villan.


Old-reb your thoughts are irrational, unreasonalbe, illogical, foolish, crazy, and absurd.

Why is it that some Muslims always accuse others of what they themselves are doing. I have tried to not personally insult you.

It is insulting to me to see all the crimes in the name of Islam and have someone claim that they are the religion of love and Peace. Yes to me too. Just as it is insulting to see Christianity and Judaism and any other religion to be exploited by power mongers in the name of fear and violence.

The only difference is your a racist old coot who think the problem is with the exploitation of a certain religion as oppossed to the whole.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Yes to me too. Just as it is insulting to see Christianity and Judaism and any other religion to be exploited by power mongers in the name of fear and violence.

The only difference is your a racist old coot who think the problem is with the exploitation of a certain religion as oppossed to the whole.

You and googs are losing the arguments so as a last resort you attack me personaly.

Must I submit to the will of Allah and only speak what you approve?

You two spread the lie that it is the Jews who are trying to destroy Islam when it is Islam that will not tolerate another religion any place. and is in a constant state of Jihad.

I point out that it is the Jew who only want to not be slaughtered by the Muslims. Does the truth offend you?

I never said Jews were trying to destroy Islam.

Now you're not just racist, you're hallucinating...

Originally posted by old-reb
You and googs are losing the arguments so as a last resort you attack me personaly.

Must I submit to the will of Allah and only speak what you approve?

You two spread the lie that it is the Jews who are trying to destroy Islam when it is Islam that will not tolerate another religion any place. and is in a constant state of Jihad.

I point out that it is the Jew who only want to not be slaughtered by the Muslims. Does the truth offend you?

Old-reb you hardly every speak the truth. Your arguements are ludicrous. The reason I had called you irrational, illogical, etc. was because you were speaking falsely about Islam. I did not intend to ridicule you as you do to my religon but to get through your head that Islam is a religon of peace. This quote has been said before but I would like to repeat it: "Islam is a perfect religon, unfortunately the people who practice it are not" Until you get this through your head, there is no basis to your arguements because they are untrue. However, if you focus on the people who use violence in the name of Islam, instead of the religon you would have a factual arguement....I just cant wait for your response. Hopefully, you don't insult me.

Originally posted by googs
Hopefully, you don't insult me.

Role playing as victim: Claiming to be 'the victim’ of religious discrimination and intolerance during debate or discussion is another form of distraction and ‘outwitting’.

http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/Feature%20articles/02-12-2002.asp

You have posted this many times.....I have read it many times...It does not interest me because its untrue as is everything you say.

Originally posted by googs
but to get through your head that Islam is a religon of peace. This quote has been said before but I would like to repeat it: "Islam is a perfect religon, unfortunately the people who practice it are not" Until you get this through your head, there is no basis to your arguements because they are untrue. However, if you focus on the people who use violence in the name of Islam, instead of the religon you would have a factual arguement....I just cant wait for your response. Hopefully, you don't insult me.


Exploiting cognitive dissonance: Islamic spokesman tend to be baffle television interviewers and puzzle viewers as they resort to double talk ‘clichés and platitudes’ concerning Islam. A state of cognitive dissonance-holding two contradictory beliefs and attempting to resolve them- is induced in viewers as they attempt to process the claim that Islam is a peaceful religion with the dissonant facts of Islamic terrorist acts and operations.

Originally posted by old-reb

Exploiting cognitive dissonance: Islamic spokesman tend to be baffle television interviewers and puzzle viewers as they resort to double talk ‘clichés and platitudes’ concerning Islam. A state of cognitive dissonance-holding two contradictory beliefs and attempting to resolve them- is induced in viewers as they attempt to process the claim that Islam is a peaceful religion with the dissonant facts of Islamic terrorist acts and operations.

You think a quote from a site that promotes hatred for Islam is gonna do u anygood?

Exploiting cognitive dissonance: Islamic spokesman tend to be baffle television interviewers and puzzle viewers as they resort to double talk ‘clichés and platitudes’ concerning Islam. A state of cognitive dissonance-holding two contradictory beliefs and attempting to resolve them- is induced in viewers as they attempt to process the claim that Islam is a peaceful religion with the dissonant facts of Islamic terrorist acts and operations. Kind of like "good ol' Amerikan Chrsitians and their hate of abortion and love of war...

Originally posted by googs
You think a quote from a site that promotes hatred for Islam is gonna do u anygood?

The site has made a study of how Muslim are so successful at blaming the victim for Islamic terrorism.

You seem to have written the book of Islamic propganda.

It is not a hate site, it is a site that reveals the hate that Muslims carry and how they disquise it.

Originally posted by old-reb
The site has made a study of how Muslim are so successful at blaming the victim for Islamic terrorism.

You seem to have written the book of Islamic propganda.

It is not a hate site, it is a site that reveals the hate that Muslims carry and how they disquise it.
Why don't you go post your comments under Happy Extremist.

Hey old reb I found some more pictures of "jew-haters" for your collections...

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/protests/nyc042805.cfm

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Hey old reb I found some more pictures of "jew-haters" for your collections...

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/protests/nyc042805.cfm

Show me some pictures of Muslims protesting Islam in Iran or Saudia Arabia and I will show you some dead people.

Jews allow all opinions and many have been converted to Muslims.

You have clearly argued that you equate criticism of Israel as "jew hatred". Why is it you now treat these anti-israelis differently?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
You have clearly argued that you equate criticism of Israel as "jew hatred". Why is it you now treat these anti-israelis differently?

These jews are against Israel for religious reasons but they are not trying to kill the Israelis.

The Muslims hate the Jews so much that they want to kill or convert the last Jew. It is commanded by Allah.

The Jews wisely chose to fight to the death before submission to Islamics.

It is surreal that such hatred exist in todays world.

Originally posted by old-reb
These jews are against Israel for religious reasons but they are not trying to kill the Israelis.

The Muslims hate the Jews so much that they want to kill or convert the last Jew. It is commanded by Allah.

The Jews wisely chose to fight to the death before submission to Islamics.

It is surreal that such hatred exist in todays world.
Old-reb you truly are an idiot.