One cannot "offensively" conduct an act of self-defense. The idea that Iraq (or its operatives) "may someday" attack the US cannot be called self defense any more than if one murders the guy next door and claims self defense because he "might someday" kill. Murder is simply murder. An attack on Iraq at this point indeed turns our President into a war criminal, and those that support him are accomplices to the crime. Remember that Germans who were against Hitler also suffered as a consequence of his actions. I gave 4 years of my life swearing to uphold the Constitution. In that Constitution only Congress can declare war. The President’s function is to carry out that order without further consideration. He may also act in self-defense. The attack on Iraq is
clearly illegal.
--Al Sledge, USAF 1965-69

Let's see the document that says so. You know, writings, words etc etc.

Try reading it some time.

Nothing in the constitution creates a problem for this war.

Remember - the congress VOTED to give Bush free reign on actions in Iraq.

If you don't like that - go vote for a new congressman

decieved Congress with forged documents claiming that Saddam had purchased nuclear weapons material - uraniam - when he in fact had not.
If you had read the arcticles I posted From the Wilderness site you would know that. You would also know that Jay Rockefeller is seriously looking into having Bush impeached for this grand deception.

70%+ Americans watch out we are all going to jail because we support our president, our country, our troops, and because we believe people should be treated with respect not tortured.

As Davetooner said "Where is your PROOF!!!"

It IS true self-defense cannot be claimed as a defense if you attack somebody because you only suspect that somebody may attack you.

That's how it is in our legal system. That's how it should be with our military.

Yeah but this has nothing to do with our legal system - it has everything to do with national security. We were attacked - 9-11 - and all the actions that follow are a response, of course if you don't look at the bigger picture then you'll never grasp it.

are that your own gov't was responsible for the world trade center deaths. If you ever took the time to study all the evidence, instead of believing all the crap and lies that spit at you, you would know they had to stage this catstrophe to convince the people to support them in a war they could not have gained support for any other way.

Now you really look silly. It's truly a shame that anybody could truly believe that to be true. You know nothing about the US obviously.

Willow.....
"ding!!!"
You just bought yourself 10 days in the penalty box for suggesting that the US had anything at all to do with 9/11. Go away for 10 days, no self respecting US citizen wants to hear anything from you before 10 April 03. Take your punishment and go quietly.

Originally posted by DrewM
Yeah but this has nothing to do with our legal system - it has everything to do with national security. We were attacked - 9-11 - and all the actions that follow are a response, of course if you don't look at the bigger picture then you'll never grasp it.

I agree there's a bigger picture involved, but I fail to see why the logic we apply should be different. When the picture is enlarged, are we not still concerned about victimizing innocents in the name of "self-defense"? Or perhaps you think innocent Iraqis shouldn't be afforded the same protection as innocent Americans?

We were attacked, but it is well-established that Iraq wasn't the attacker. Thus, 9-11 is irrelevant to this inquiry, unless you can show that Iraq has/is somehow physically supported/supporting that cause.

at your own peril. Of course they will never admit to what they pulled off. And they know good and well that as long as no one on the networks they own and control brings up the truth, the public won't so much as think twice about. any other lies they want to tell. They KNOW that the ONLY thing you people put your faith in is the crap you hear on the idiot box and in their progoganda rags. That's why they can literally get away with murder and not have the sleeping, well indoctrinated, public suspect a thing. You have not seen the information and the evidence that they make bloody well sure none of their talking head news stooges ever mentions. Connie Chung got her ass canned for years because she spilled a little of the beans one day, when she answered some reporters question, about how they get to decide what gets on the news. Her answer was that NOTHING gets on the air until it has Whitehouse clearance. There's your free press.

Bullshit.
Get the hell out of here. Don't let the sun set on your sorry butt.

I don't think it matters if there is a direct link between Iraq & 9-11

Iraq is a rogue state possessing WMD and a proven will to use them. They have flouted UN resolutions and are a threat to the US.

And Willow - you are a nutcase, in your view the only real news comes from underground websites ran by dropouts & missfits like yourself. You need to go join the Raeliens - it sounds like just your type of thing.

the real news comes from the idiot box that is owned and controled by the behemoth corporations who have a clear bias in what gets said, or doesn't?

The plain truth here is that you are jealous of the US & you don't understand the system of checks & balances in the US.

Nobody said there is no bias, nobody says there is no corruption - but we don't live in Utopia land - we live in the real world.

If you want to see some systems that don't work - try Russia - the only reason you don't question Russia is because your not jealous of their way of life.

if you don't get the real story, which you never do.

Well what is the real world - please tell & also describe your utopian state

my time telling you tools (again) what books you need to read to get a clear understanding of the real world. Stay stuck in stupid for all I care. Watch your idiot box sound bites and suck it up like it is gospel.

you better smile when you call me a vice grip, cactus

Originally posted by willow
my time telling you tools (again) what books you need to read to get a clear understanding of the real world. Stay stuck in stupid for all I care. Watch your idiot box sound bites and suck it up like it is gospel.

Just as I expected - nothing of substance - keep on living in la-la land

Be sure to lock your door and night & be careful to always look over your shoulder & oh - don't forget the schitzo meds

Stuck in stupid that is a good one:D Why does it not surprise me that it came from Willow after all he would know what being stuck in stupid is all about.

There is no possible way that any news person (undergound, mainstream or otherwise) knows what's really happening behing the scenes.

News stories are just that: stories. They have been spun (rinsed, fluffed and folded).

Use your own antenna to tune in on the tidbits of truth that escape sealed rooms and classified files.

I may not of been here earlier, but that still doesnt matter. You spoke of "If you want to see some systems that don't work - try Russia". Yet, from hearing you say that, have no idea went on in Russia, and the reasons why it didnt work. I know what you implied, you implied Communism; don't worry, that much, all Americans make the same stupid mistake; speaking of what they do not understand.

You, willow, at least know how un-free the "free press" is. You are right that you cannot get very much truth out of the "idiot box", and hopefully you know that CNN is one of the least reliable news sources(for anything relating to politics). But I think you take it a step far when you say that the US instigated 9-11. There is proof that they had evidence that it was going to happen, and could have increased security measures, but they did not cause it to happen.

9-11 is an excuse for this war. It is quite scary that whenever the war topic comes up, people immediatly start talking about 9-11, and when you say that you don't support the war they start calling you a traitor and that you are "happy that thousands died in 9-11". Well guess what, the US has killed MILLIONS more, I'm not talking about war and killing soldiers. I am talking about killing innocents, the sanctions imposed on Iraq have killed thousands. Most water is poisonous due to the Dirty Bombs we dropped near the Tigrus and Eurphrates rivers. Pencils are banned, because genius Bush senior deemed that "the lead in pencils can be used in Iraq's nuclear programme." We gave them the means to create weapons of mass destruction, we helped build factories and reasearch centers. The US has been stoping heathcare and food items that the Red Cross has been droping in there, not Saddam.

I am not a Saddam lover, I am just one who sees the truth of the matter, and how far terrorism goes. If Bush wants so badly to end terrorism, why doesn't he bomb himself?

The reason I say that the US was responsible for those world trade center deaths was because we witnessed some very astounding evidence that was never seen or talked about on the tube or in the mainstream press.

Every one of course just saw the same few "money " shots played to death. But no where did they have any construction, or chemical engineers explain how it would have been a physical impossibility for those buildings to collapse simply from being struck by those jets. I know of at least one investigative reporter who has transcripts and video of experts explaining all the reasons why this could not have happened the way they want us to believe that it did. He has given numerous talks and presentations throughout the country, as well as having offered a substantial reward to any one who can disprove these claims. When you look at the evidence, what looks most logical is that those buildings collapsed because they had been studded throughout with explosives. As a side note. You might find it interesting to know that the CIA also maintained offices in those buildings.

Any way... If you would like to view the tape you can contact Mike Ruppert. If you trying a search on - From The Wilderness - you should be able to locate his site. He is also an excellant source for alternative news. Before he switched to investigative reporting he was a cop in LA, Calif - I believe. He also wrote an incredible book - Dark Conspiracy - about how he cracked the CIA's direct, and still ongoing involvement in the drug trade that has led to us being saturated with more hard drugs than before, the US launched their "war on drugs" 30 yrs ago. What we heard during the Iran Contra hearings, didn't even come close to what was really going on with Bush Sr's approval, and Noriegas help. With the US now also having cornered Ahfganistan, Ruppert is certain that we will be soon be hit with a major epidemic of heroin too, since that region is the choice heroin poppie capital of the world. We shall see. In all the years I have followed his reporting he has never - once - been wrong.
PS) You are right as well about how the sanctions have lead to deaths in !raqi. 400,000 children alone. Due to shortages of food, water medical aid, and a 350% increase in cancer since the 1st. US attacks contaminated every thing with all their uranium tipped missles. You don't even want to get me started on what the US have been doing to reduce the populations of the poor black people of South Africa with a drug called Virumane that causes complete liver failure. Or what they are doing to the indigenous populations of South America with the chemicals they are using to detroy the rain, to clear the way for their drilling stations and oil piplines, since they found some nice reserves there as well. The sh*t the US pulls on other countries and people all around the world, and what the people in the US just have NO!!!! clue about.....

Wllow has finally got a friend how sweet. Lets hear some more pinko input, tell us how most of America is wrong and that you anti-improvment freaks are right. This time could you use some FACTS.

Screw you damn communist pinko asshole. Communism... what a joke!

Enlighten us on life behind the Iron Curtain. I'd love to read about your trials and tribulations. Communism has not worked, will not work. You're preaching to an empty church. If society was acutally under communism, then none of us would be enjoying this conversation. Ever been to a communist nation? Have you paid any attention to what eastern Europe is having to fix after the Berlin Wall finally came down? Communism may make for fine reading, but that's all. Some say that humans just aren't ready for it, well maybe so. Perhaps in another 500 years we'll get there. Communism never fixed anything.

blibblob & willow:

read this (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1704)

enjoy

Originally posted by willow
One cannot "offensively" conduct an act of self-defense. The idea that Iraq (or its operatives) "may someday" attack the US cannot be called self defense any more than if one murders the guy next door and claims self defense because he "might someday" kill. Murder is simply murder. An attack on Iraq at this point indeed turns our President into a war criminal, and those that support him are accomplices to the crime. Remember that Germans who were against Hitler also suffered as a consequence of his actions. I gave 4 years of my life swearing to uphold the Constitution. In that Constitution only Congress can declare war. The President’s function is to carry out that order without further consideration. He may also act in self-defense. The attack on Iraq is
clearly illegal.
--Al Sledge, USAF 1965-69

Well then so was Clinton. In bombing Serbia he did almost exactly the same as Bush is doing now. People think this is the first time this kind of thing has happened, just because 9-11 got everyone interested in politics. Not many were protesting against war then.