February 6, 2006
Those Danish Cartoons
Don't Be Fooled This Isn't an Issue of Islam versus Secularism
By ROBERT FISK

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1400041511.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

So now it's cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed with a bomb-shaped turban. Ambassadors are withdrawn from Denmark, Gulf nations clear their shelves of Danish produce, Gaza gunmen threaten the European Union. In Denmark, Fleming Rose, the "culture" editor of the pip-squeak newspaper which published these silly cartoons--last September, for heaven's sake--announces that we are witnessing a "clash of civilisations" between secular Western democracies and Islamic societies. This does prove, I suppose, that Danish journalists follow in the tradition of Hans Christian Anderson. Oh lordy, lordy. What we're witnessing is the childishness of civilisations.

So let's start off with the Department of Home Truths. This is not an issue of secularism versus Islam. For Muslims, the Prophet is the man who received divine words directly from God. We see our prophets as faintly historical figures, at odds with our high-tech human rights, almost cariacatures of themselves. The fact is that Muslims live their religion. We do not. They have kept their faith through innumerable historical vicissitudes. We have lost our faith ever since Matthew Arnold wrote about the sea's "long, withdrawing roar". That's why we talk about "the West versus Islam" rather than "Christians versus Islam"--because there aren't an awful lot of Christians left in Europe. There is no way we can get round this by setting up all the other world religions and asking why we are not allowed to make fun of Mohamed.

Besides, we can exercise our own hypocrisy over religious feelings. I happen to remember how, more than a decade ago, a film called The Last Temptation of Christ showed Jesus making love to a woman. In Paris, someone set fire to the cinema showing the movie, killing a young man. I also happen to remember a US university which invited me to give a lecture three years ago. I did. It was entitled " September 11, 2001: ask who did it but, for God's sake, don't ask why". When I arrived, I found that the university had deleted the phrase "for God's sake" because "we didn't want to offend certain sensibilities". Ah-ha, so we have "sensibilities" too.

In other words, while we claim that Muslims must be good secularists when it comes to free speech--or cheap cartoons--we can worry about adherents to our own precious religion just as much. I also enjoyed the pompous claims of European statesmen that they cannot control free speech or newspapers. This is also nonsense. Had that cartoon of the Prophet shown instead a chief rabbi with a bomb-shaped hat, we would have had "anti-Semitism" screamed into our ears--and rightly so--just as we often hear the Israelis complain about anti-Semitic cartoons in Egyptian newspapers.

Furthermore, in some European nations--France is one, Germany and Austria are among the others--it is forbidden by law to deny acts of genocide. In France, for example, it is illegal to say that the Jewish Holocaust or the Armenian Holocaust did not happen. So it is, in fact, impermissable to make certain statements in European nations. I'm still uncertain whether these laws attain their objectives; however much you may prescribe Holocaust denial, anti-Semites will always try to find a way round. We can hardly exercise our political restraints to prevent Holocaust deniers and then start screaming about secularism when we find that Muslims object to our provocative and insulting image of the Prophet.

For many Muslims, the "Islamic" reaction to this affair is an embarrassment. There is good reason to believe that Muslims would like to see some element of reform introduced to their religion. If this cartoon had advanced the cause of those who want to debate this issue, no-one would have minded. But it was clearly intended to be provocative. It was so outrageous that it only caused reaction.

And this is not a great time to heat up the old Samuel Huntingdon garbage about a "clash of civilisations". Iran now has a clerical government again. So, to all intents and purposes, does Iraq (which was not supposed to end up with a democratically elected clerical administration, but that's what happens when you topple dictators). In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood won 20 per cent of the seats in the recent parliamentary elections. Now we have Hamas in charge of " Palestine". There's a message here, isn't there? That America's policies--"regime change" in the Middle East--are not achieving their ends. These millions of voters were preferring Islam to the corrupt regimes which we imposed on them.

For the Danish cartoon to be dumped on top of this fire is dangerous indeed.

In any event, it's not about whether the Prophet should be pictured. The Koran does not forbid images of the Prophet even though millions of Muslims do. The problem is that these cartoons portrayed Mohamed as a bin Laden-type image of violence. They portrayed Islam as a violent religion. It is not. Or do we want to make it so?





Robert Fisk is a reporter for The Independent and author of Pity the Nation. He is also a contributor to CounterPunch's collection, The Politics of Anti-Semitism . Fisk's new book is The Conquest of the Middle East .

http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk02062006.html




---


I found it interesting even though I might have a few comments on it. I thought of sharing it. Enjoy reading

Woah.

Birds of a feather flock together.


Robert Fisk
He is the world's most-decorated foreign correspondent,[2] having received numerous awards including the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year award seven times. Fisk speaks good vernacular Arabic, and is one of the few Western journalists to have interviewed Osama bin Laden (three times between 1994 and 1997).

His view of journalism is that it must "challenge authority - all authority - especially so when governments and politicians take us to war", and he quotes with approval the Israeli journalist Amira Hass: "There is a misconception that journalists can be objective ... What journalism is really about is to monitor power and the centres of power."[1] Fisk has received widespread praise on the political left and criticism from the right, the latter in particular for an alleged anti-American and anti-Israeli bias in his emphasis on reporting the alleged ills done to the Middle East by the West from the Great War onwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fisk

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety


Besides, we can exercise our own hypocrisy over religious feelings. I happen to remember how, more than a decade ago, a film called The Last Temptation of Christ showed Jesus making love to a woman. In Paris, someone set fire to the cinema showing the movie, killing a young man. I also happen to remember a US university which invited me to give a lecture three years ago. I did. It was entitled " September 11, 2001: ask who did it but, for God's sake, don't ask why". When I arrived, I found that the university had deleted the phrase "for God's sake" because "we didn't want to offend certain sensibilities". Ah-ha, so we have "sensibilities" too.

In other words, while we claim that Muslims must be good secularists when it comes to free speech--or cheap cartoons--we can worry about adherents to our own precious religion just as much.



Well that convinces me, them Christians is much worse than the members of "The Religion of Love and Peace". How long did it take him to dig that bit of info up?

What the heck does Robert use for logic?

What really makes Islamics mad is the fact that the cartoon represents the honest truth about Islamics using bombs to intimidate people into submission.

This is a new kind of, a new kind of evil. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while. And American people must be patient. -- Bush, Washington, D.C., Sept. 16, 2001

Old-Reb what makes you think that Christianity isn't a violent genocidal religion?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla


Old-Reb what makes you think that Christianity isn't a violent genocidal religion?

It was in Medieval days but it has moderated while Islam is still in the medieval ways and it still works now like it worked back then.

If you observe the news you will not see Christians killing people just because they are not Christians while you will find that many Muslims would be willing to die to kill one Jew. Theirs is a racist religion that calls for the extermination of the Jews. The Christians aren't far behind the Jews in the hatred from Muslims.

old-reb excuse me for saying this but I think that you have very stereotypical views. About the getting mad over "them really being bomb blowing people" that's just bull, Muslims were mad because of the insult and not the admission.

Every Muslim should know that the defamation about the religion and mocking the Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, which happened along the centuries and which is happening now is an affliction through which a Muslim should be patient. The Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, said: "How strange is the matter of a believer, there is good in all his affairs, and this is only for the believer. If something good happens to him and he is grateful, then this is good for him, and if a calamity befalls him and he is patient, then this is also good for him.” [Muslim] The fact that people ridicule the Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, is not a new matter. Rather it is a very ancient matter that is being renewed. The non-Muslims from the tribe of Quraysh insulted the Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, and they said that he was a poet, a magician and a mad man, and they defamed him with other insults, but this did not harm the Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, and did not decrease his status. This [what happened] only increases our firm belief in the Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, and that he was truly a Prophet, and it increases our love for him, and makes us abide by his orders.

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=10029&Option=FatwaId

Why do you have to write his full name after every time you reference him in conversation? I'm sorry, but that's highly unconventional.

Thats not his name, it means peace be upon him.

Originally posted by old-reb
If you observe the news you will not see Christians killing people just because they are not Christians while you will find that many Muslims would be willing to die to kill one Jew. Theirs is a racist religion that calls for the extermination of the Jews. The Christians aren't far behind the Jews in the hatred from Muslims.
Oh give me a fucking break. You can't compare the loony Osama bin Laden types to Bob Christian. Try comparing them to Timothy McVeigh or Fred Phelps. Nutcases exist in every religion.

Originally posted by googs
Thats not his name, it means peace be upon him.
Thanks for the explanation, but why do you have to say that after every time you mention him?

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Thanks for the explanation, but why do you have to say that after every time you mention him?

I have always wondered that, sometimes they repeat the phrase several times a sentence. :@@:

Originally posted by Evakian
I have always wondered that, sometimes they repeat the phrase several times a sentence. :@@: You could program your keyboard so that hitting a single key types out the entire phrase. Or would that be disrespectful? I don't know.

It seems Innocent Sweetie and Robert Fisk both fail to get it.

The West is not asking Muslims to give up their religion and become secularists. The West is asking Muslims to not use religion as an excuse to go on killing rampages or to pronoune Fatwas against anyone they perceive as not toing the Islamic party line.

For Fisk to use a single, deranged Christian in France to find some sort of moral equivalency to the rioting and killing going on in Muslim countries is ludicrus. This was one man and he was condemned by his co-religionists. Muslims are being incited to riot and kill by their religious leaders, one of whom recently offered one million dollars and a new car to anyone who killed one of the Danish cartoonists.

There are many muslims that had condemed the riots. Such as the members of the ADCand ISNA.

It's not only after the Prophet Muhammad. It's after every prophet.

I have always wondered that, sometimes they repeat the phrase several times a sentence.

It is not only said after the Prophet Muhammad, It is also said after every other prophet.

Well, that's twice now you forgot to say 'sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam' after 'the Prophet Muhammad'. Can you get into trouble for that?

It is all about money, North America (the duo Government/Corporations of what is called the U.S. because the real 'América' is a lot more than just one country), want to control everything, and also loot from the countries they go into. But the big issue is this, it is all that money that is and isn't (the taxes will cover the expence anyway in the years to come) in the department of treasure of the U.S. all that money that are the taxes paid by everyone working there. Before, these Corporations and the Governments they put in power used the ex Soviet Union as the enemy, therefore they needed all kinds of weapons, and of course the contracts fell in the hands of their friends, the Corporations. Then all of a sudden there is no more enemy, so they started the mass propaganda of the new enemy, the Muslims. You can see very clear how all the 'reconstruction money' is pocket-ted by the circle of friends (the Gov/Corp Mafia).
"Freedom", my ass!!!, they never cared, not even the one for their citizens. There is a new slavery form around.

Guys, about the Prophet Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him) well it's not compulsory to add those brackets but he did tell us that those who don't use the full name are considered to be stingy because they weren't in the mood to say or spell it all. You don't get into trouble for not saying it, it's just better to say it.
Frogger, I'm not excusing nor am I justifying what some Muslims did as it is very wrong, you just need to understand their reasons behind such acts. Insults are pretty provoking.

Cromagnon.. lol

Let me emphasize on this point please:
This is not an issue of freedom versus non-freedom or taking money or whatever. Muslims rioted because of their anger. The Danish did this on purpose which was what made them even more angry.

Please watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8kXbNbjmhI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fonegoodmove%2Eorg%2F1gm%2F

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Guys, about the Prophet Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him) well it's not compulsory to add those brackets but he did tell us that those who don't use the full name are considered to be stingy because they weren't in the mood to say or spell it all. You don't get into trouble for not saying it, it's just better to say it.
Frogger, I'm not excusing nor am I justifying what some Muslims did as it is very wrong, you just need to understand their reasons behind such acts. Insults are pretty provoking.

Cromagnon.. lol

Let me emphasize on this point please:
This is not an issue of freedom versus non-freedom or taking money or whatever. Muslims rioted because of their anger. The Danish did this on purpose which was what made them even more angry.

Please watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8kXbNbjmhI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fonegoodmove%2Eorg%2F1gm%2F

That makes perfect sense, Innocent. It is not about freedom against submission, it is about keeping those Christians from telling the truth about Mohammad.

To each his own old-reb, think whatever you want to think about other people's religions and criticize as you like. We only ask for respect (i.e, no insults) and that's it. Thanks.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
To each his own old-reb, think whatever you want to think about other people's religions and criticize as you like. We only ask for respect (i.e, no insults) and that's it. Thanks.

You only address one small insult to Islam while you totally disregard constant insults from Islam.

Show some respect for the rest of the world before you ask us to curtail our freedom of the press.

Irish nationalists clash with police in Dublin By Jodie Ginsberg
17 minutes ago


DUBLIN (Reuters) - Irish nationalists clashed with police in Dublin on Saturday as demonstrations against a planned march by Northern Irish Protestants exploded into the worst rioting in the city for more than a decade.

ADVERTISEMENT

Hundreds of rioters hurled bricks, fireworks and bottles at police as they waited for the "Love Ulster" rally to start.

The rioters were protesting against plans for relatives of people killed by the Irish Republican Army (IRA), a guerrilla group that fought to unite Northern Ireland with the Irish Republic, to march through central Dublin with pro-British musical bands.

Organizers abandoned the rally before it got under way as riots spread to other parts of the city center.

Police shepherded bewildered shoppers and tourists off Dublin's main shopping streets and said 14 people, including six police officers, were taken to hospital. They made 37 arrests.

Roads were sealed off and shops shut across the city center.

Rioters hurled metal fences into the road and setting bins alight on O'Connell Street, one of the city's busiest shopping thoroughfares.

The street was the scene of the 1916 Easter Rising, a rebellion against British rule in Ireland that helped to bring about the country's independence.

WINDOWS SMASHED

An elderly woman told Reuters windows were smashed in an exclusive department store close to the Irish parliament, where some of the "Love Ulster" Organizers had gone to meet the country's Justice Minister after the march was abandoned.

"They smashed the windows in with iron bars. It was terrible," the woman said. "They (the shop staff) were shouting at everyone to get down and everyone got on their knees." Cars in front of the shop were set alight.

Justice Minister Michael McDowell condemned the violence, which began at around midday but which had subsided by evening.

"The only message these people have managed to convey to the people of Dublin and of Ireland is that sectarian violence is, once again, being unleashed against all of the principles of the Good Friday Agreement and the overwhelming wishes of the Irish people," he said.

Northern Ireland's 1998 Good Friday peace deal largely brought an end to three decades of sectarian conflict in the British-ruled province, although deep mistrust still divides communities there.

Most of the majority Protestant population in Northern Ireland support continued British rule while the minority Catholic population tend to favor union with the predominantly Catholic south.

Saturday's abandoned rally was intended to call on the Irish government to do more to help investigate unsolved murders blamed on nationalist guerrillas.

Around 3,600 people were killed during the "troubles" of the 1970s, 80s and early 1990s. About half were killed by the IRA.

The IRA's political ally, Sinn Fein, which has politicians north and south of the border, condemned Saturday's violence.

"There is absolutely no justification for the disgraceful scenes which occurred in the city center this afternoon," said Sean Crowe, member of parliament for Dublin South West.

It was the worst rioting in Dublin for at least 10 years. In February 1995, police arrested 45 people, mostly English soccer fans, after fighting broke out in Lansdowne Road stadium, south of the city center, at a match between England and Ireland.

OK, Googs I will admit that Irish Catholics are terrorist as well as Muslims.

Do you agree to that.

Not just Irish catholics, but protestant christians, jews, and muslims.

Agreed, Now lets post a picture of each relligion calling them terrorist and see which one reacts with terrorism.

Why?

Originally posted by googs
Why?

It is a test.

The real terrorist religion will react with terrorism and the others will mind their own business.

Just cause we say a religon acts with terrorism doesnt mean they do? Anyhoo, you can go ahead and post:confused:

Originally posted by googs
Just cause we say a religon acts with terrorism doesnt mean they do? Anyhoo, you can go ahead and post:confused:

http://www.thejester.co.uk/blog/images/mohammed_terror.jpg

http://www.honestreporting.com/images/sharoneatbaby.jpg

http://www.topplebush.com/images/products_sm_images/bush_tp_sm.jpg

http://www.irancartoon.com/100/terrorism%20Contest/Oguz%20Gurel/Untitled-1759.jpg

The cartoon of Sharon the Jew is much older than the one of Mohammad. Muslims are expert at the most horrible cartoons.

Muslims show disrespect for other religions. If they want respect they need to earn it and not by acting like terrorist.

Its not Sharon teh Jew....

Its Sharon the Butcher of Sabra and Shatila and its well documented. The fact that Israel and the US expected the Palistinaisns to make peace with a convicted War Criminal just speaks to how anti-palistinian the press and countries are.

The US and Israel are now cutting off aid/taxes to Palistine because Hamas wona democratic election.

Do you see the rank hypocracy?

http://byrddroppings.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/inclusiveness450.jpg

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Its not Sharon teh Jew....

Its Sharon the Butcher of Sabra and Shatila and its well documented. The fact that Israel and the US expected the Palistinaisns to make peace with a convicted War Criminal just speaks to how anti-palistinian the press and countries are.

The US and Israel are now cutting off aid/taxes to Palistine because Hamas wona democratic election.

Do you see the rank hypocracy?

If Sharon wanted to be a butcher he had the power but he only wanted to defend his country from Islamic terrorist.

Free elections only have meaning with free people.

Hamas openly states that they want to drive the Jews into the sea but 500 thinks it is the Jews that are trying to exterminate the Muslims.

Is is sicking to know that people like 500 are proud of the anti-jewish cartoon but condemns the Mohammad cartoon.

I am starting to feel like a Jew because I see the injustice delt to them.

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip live in an odd and oppressive limbo. They have no nation, no citizenship, and no ultimate power over their own lives.

Since 1967, when Israel conquered these areas (the final 22 percent of mandatory Palestine), Palestinians have been living under Israeli military occupation. While in some parts Israel has allowed a Palestinian “autonomous” entity to take on such municipal functions as education, health care, infrastructure and policing, Israel retains overall power.

According to international law, an occupying force is responsible for the protection of the civilian population living under its control. Israel, however, ignores this requirement, routinely committing violations of the Geneva Conventions, a set of principles instituted after World War II to ensure that civilians would “never again” suffer as they had under Nazi occupation. Israel is one of the leading violators of these conventions today.

Israeli forces regularly confiscate private land; imprison individuals without process – including children – and physically abuse them under incarceration; demolish family homes; bulldoze orchards and crops; place entire towns under curfew; destroy shops and businesses; shoot, maim, and kill civilians – and Palestinians are without power to stop any of it.

When a child is arrested, for example – often by a group of armed soldiers in the middle of the night – parents can do nothing. Knowing that their son is most likely being beaten by soldiers on the way to the station, stripped and humiliated in prison, quite likely physically abused in multiple additional ways, and destined to be held – perhaps in isolation – for days, week, or months (all before a trial has even taken place), parents are without the ability to protect their child. Quite often, in fact, they cannot even visit him.

Finally, when the military trial under which their son is to be sentenced – often to years (sometimes decades) in prison – all they can do is hire a lawyer whose efforts, at best, will reduce the ultimate sentence by a few months. Rarely, if ever, can even the most skilled lawyer do more than afford the child a friendly face in court and be an outside witness to the injustice of the proceedings. Meanwhile, the presence of such a lawyer provides Israel cover for its “judicial system.”

Perhaps most significant – and rarely understood by people in the outside world – is the fact that Palestinians live, basically, in a prison in which Israel holds the keys.

They cannot leave Gaza or the West Bank unless Israeli guards allow them to. If they have been allowed out, they cannot return to their homes and families unless Israeli guards permit it.

Frequently, in both cases, Israel refuses such permission.

Academics invited to attend conferences abroad, high school students given US State Department scholarships to study in the United States, mothers wishing to visit daughters abroad, American citizens returning to their families, humanitarians bringing wheelchairs – the list goes on almost without limit – have all been denied permission by Israel to leave or enter their own land.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip live in an odd and oppressive limbo. They have no nation, no citizenship, and no ultimate power over their own lives.

That is the condition that the rest of the Muslim world wants Palestine to stay in. They are hardened Jihad fighters who use terrorism for killing Jews.


Israeli forces regularly confiscate private land; imprison individuals without process – including children – and physically abuse them under incarceration; demolish family homes; bulldoze orchards and crops; place entire towns under curfew; destroy shops and businesses; shoot, maim, and kill civilians – and Palestinians are without power to stop any of it.

Israel must confiscate land to make safety barriers to protect against terrorist. These children are often older than the IDF soldiers. Palestines have highly trained warriors who pretend to be innocent civilians.

Palestinians have the power to stop all this just by stopping attacking Jews.

They cannot leave Gaza or the West Bank unless Israeli guards allow them to. If they have been allowed out, they cannot return to their homes and families unless Israeli guards permit it.

Frequently, in both cases, Israel refuses such permission.

Israel loves trade and would like nothing better than to have open borders with Palestine but when the gates open, terrorist come through to explode in shopping centers and in busses to kill Jews. The Jews do what they must do to survive.

old-reb most of the caricatures coming from the Muslim world are drawn to ridicule politicians but I don't recall seeing any that ridiculed religions. You posted a picture of Sharon yet you disregarded the fact that in our own newspapers we used to print caricatures that made fun of Arafat.

I guess that I should've been more specific... we ask for respect in terms of religion.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
old-reb most of the caricatures coming from the Muslim world are drawn to ridicule politicians but I don't recall seeing any that ridiculed religions. You posted a picture of Sharon yet you disregarded the fact that in our own newspapers we used to print caricatures that made fun of Arafat.

I guess that I should've been more specific... we ask for respect in terms of religion.

You always play with words to make your deeds more acceptable and ours more evil.

With words you justify anything Muslims do and condemn anything Westerners do. Muslims even added cartoons that were made by Muslims about Mohammad in order to further inflame their people against the Danes.

So muslims print cartoons that insult Islam to blame Danes. Hmm No morals there. But were there ever any?

Israel must confiscate land to make safety barriers to protect against terrorist. These children are often older than the IDF soldiers. Palestines have highly trained warriors who pretend to be innocent civilians

Are IDF soldiers between the ages of 1-17?

Originally posted by old-reb
Muslims show disrespect for other religions.
So do members of other religions, you bigoted assclown! Sheesh, never heard of Fred Phelps?

Originally posted by googs
Are IDF soldiers between the ages of 1-17?

You are right goog, IDF soldiers aren't that young



Yussef Geara says he was in the dark about his son’s intentions, otherwise “I wouldn’t have stopped him” he added.

Israeli forces came to his home and told him that his house would be knocked down. His son’s suicide bombing had already caused him heart problems. Meanwhile the walls of the Aida Palestinian camp are plastered with posters of his son “Ali the Martyr”, but Yussef cannot bear to look at them. “I can’t sleep at night. I am having nightmares,” he said.

These days Yussef is sleeping in a tent, just like when he was a child living in Jordan refugee camps. “This problem cannot be solved by detonating bombs,” he says. And what causes him the most grief is that no one wants to listen to him.

Mohammed Abu Mahsen, the father of a 13 year-old boy enrolled as an Islamic Jihad militant, is filled with the same grief. Yet he is grateful to Israeli soldiers who arrested his son before he could carry out any suicide bombing. “The enemy saved my son’s life,” he says constantly to friends and relatives. “I’m happy he was arrested and not killed.”

Abu Mahsen, age 39, condemns Islamic Jihad leaders. “I haven’t raised my son for 13 years just to lose him in an instant,” he said. And referring to Jihad leaders he added: “You go and kill yourselves or send us your sons or brothers (to do the same thing).” Abu Muhsen says that for years he kept his son from watching the news on TV and had always instilled in him his belief against killing other human beings.

These amounted to useless precautions, after he found a farewell letter in which his son explained his motives: “I want to carry out the attack against Sharon’s wall.”

Abu Mahsen’s 13 year-old son, Tarek, together with 2 other boys, Jaffer Hussein (13) and Ibrahim Sawasta (14), were arrested as their bodies were found lined with explosives while on their way to “get back at the wall”, according to Israeli police officers. The three teenagers are now in jail awaiting trial. (PB)




http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=454http://www.thebcobserver.com/(bzl5sde4mn5zs145dusiagzp)/images/issues/11/bomber.jpg

Originally posted by BorgHunter
So do members of other religions, you bigoted assclown! Sheesh, never heard of Fred Phelps?

Never heard of him. Anyway other religions don't riot and kill hundreds of people when they receive a single newspaper insult.

Do I have to post this again:

123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 708 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000

http://ifamericaknew.org/

Never heard of him.
Well then it seems that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and you are assertively argueing on a subject you admit you know fuck all about...good job.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/index.html

"Hurricanes (see our words on Katrina here), floods, tornadoes, earthquakes, IEDs, collapsing mines and more -- we pray daily for more outpourings of God's justice and wrath on this evil, hateful nation.

It is a sin NOT to take pleasure in the wrathful out pourings of God's justice on this nation. "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked" (Ps. 58:10).

Get used to it, America! It's only going to get worse. The more you persecute God's people, the more wrath He pours out on you!"

How can you accuse Muslim countries of having limited or no freedom of expression when America limites freedom of Expression?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/1564288;_ylt=Ah0ImsUqp_DPiOaue_8VeHwDW7oF;_ylu=X3o DMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Do I have to post this again:

123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 708 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000

http://ifamericaknew.org/


Well then it seems that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and you are assertively argueing on a subject you admit you know fuck all about...good job.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/index.html

"Hurricanes (see our words on Katrina here), floods, tornadoes, earthquakes, IEDs, collapsing mines and more -- we pray daily for more outpourings of God's justice and wrath on this evil, hateful nation.

It is a sin NOT to take pleasure in the wrathful out pourings of God's justice on this nation. "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked" (Ps. 58:10).

Get used to it, America! It's only going to get worse. The more you persecute God's people, the more wrath He pours out on you!"
http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/suicide_bomb_2.jpg

Palestine children killed as suicide bombers and warrriors. They are sent out as warriors to kill innocent people but when they die they are counted as innocent little children. This little Palestine boy lives only because he was rescued by the evil Jews.

Islam abuses their children to death.

You want me to study up on some off shoot religious nut? How many million followers does he have?

You say Allah sent Katrina, well who sent the tsumi wave and the Pakistain earthquake.

You are a religious nut, yourself.

Originally posted by googs
How can you accuse Muslim countries of having limited or no freedom of expression when America limites freedom of Expression?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/1564288;_ylt=Ah0ImsUqp_DPiOaue_8VeHwDW7oF;_ylu=X3o DMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

That is ridiculous statement and the link is dead.

Originally posted by old-reb
Never heard of him. Anyway other religions don't riot and kill hundreds of people when they receive a single newspaper insult.

Neither does Islam, reb. What you are seeing is a few extremists.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Neither does Islam, reb. What you are seeing is a few extremists.

Here is an extremist suicide bomber.
http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/suicide_bomb_2.jpg

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Neither does Islam, reb. What you are seeing is a few extremists.

You had to do some deep digging to find this guy. How many people has he killed and how many riots has he led. America has freedom of speech for nuts like Fred and Islamics. Since 1955 has has not grown a bit. Yet you compare him to Islamic tens of thousands.






Established in 1955 by Pastor Fred Phelps, the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) of Topeka, Kansas still exists today as an Old School (or, Primitive) Baptist Church.

We are located at 3701 W. 12th Street in Topeka, KS.


If you look at what our moderate Muslims on this board are saying, they agree with the rioters and they are 1.4 billion strong.

Muslims are just exercising their right to protest.

Originally posted by old-reb
If you look at what our moderate Muslims on this board are saying, they agree with the rioters and they are 1.4 billion strong.

You can only say that if you don't look at what they are saying.

old-reb

The picture is of an extremist.
You are obviously not reading what "the moderate Muslims on this board are saying."

Islam has two arms, one has a sword and one is to apologize for the other arm.

How could anyone call a 13 year old boy an extremist but there he is with a suicide vest on to kill innocent people. Did Christianity, or Judism or some radical nut in Utah order him to kill? No, it was "The Religion of Love and Peace".

Originally posted by old-reb
Islam has two arms, one has a sword and one is to apologize for the other arm.

How could anyone call a 13 year old boy an extremist but there he is with a suicide vest on to kill innocent people. Did Christianity, or Judism or some radical nut in Utah order him to kill? No, it was "The Religion of Love and Peace".
Ooooh, you came close. You mentioned "radical nut." You just put it in the wrong place. Here, let me fix that for you:

"it was a radical nut of 'The Religion of Love and Peace.'"

I second borg's statement...

And no, Islam doesn't ask for that.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Ooooh, you came close. You mentioned "radical nut." You just put it in the wrong place. Here, let me fix that for you:

"it was a radical nut of 'The Religion of Love and Peace.'"
So there is a radical nut in Palestine who is sending children out as suicide bombers, well lets find out who he is and arrest him.

OR could it be a culture that hates Jews so much that they load up their children with bombs and sends them to kill the Jews. The Jews show more respect for Palestine children than the Palestinians do.

School are named after children Martyr and songs of praise are written about them for other children to sing. But Borg says it was "A" religious nut.

The child was not yet an extremist, he only did what adults told him to do. Palestines told him to blow himself up and the Jews told him to put his hands up. If he was a true religious nut would have ignored the Jews and blew up.

The Jews may have saved his earthly life but they kept him from eternal paradise. ------ Bad Jews.

Originally posted by old-reb
The Jews show more respect for Palestine children than the Palestinians do.

Which of course is why so many more Palestinian than Israeli children have been killed. How many Palestinian children have been suicide bombers reb?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Which of course is why so many more Palestinian than Israeli children have been killed. How many Palestinian children have been suicide bombers reb?

What does it say about a society that sends even one child to be a suicide bomber. Sick human beings!


Photo of Palestines on a family outing and fighting Jews. Taken from a Muslim web site.

Did they ever stop to think that if they fired at tanks then the tanks would fire back? Did they ever think that the children might be killed?

Yes, they did think that this would be good propaganda.


http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/sib3_04/images/k_11l.jpg

First of all if they are shooting at tanks they are shooting at an illegal military occupation, not 'jews.' (besides that you can't even see what they are shooting at.)

Secondly while you say that Iran is bad and religious governments are bad you simulatianiously post a picture of palistninians resisting a religious government. Israel is racist and is a religious extremeist country as well....

Oh but wait forgot your a bigoted racist asshole yourself and that any other form of religious extremeism is OK, its just bad for muslims right old-reb?...

Islam has two arms, one has a sword and one is to apologize for the other arm. How could anyone call a 13 year old boy an extremist but there he is with a suicide vest on to kill innocent people. Did Christianity, or Judism or some radical nut in Utah order him to kill? No, it was "The Religion of Love and Peace". Just like America has Jack booted thugs who call for war and violence as the solution to anything and everything America wants in the world. And the apologists for the violent pricks. I guess the world should just assume that all Americans then are jack-booted thugs calling for their blood. Oh wait Osama already did that. If you think its OK to persecute all muslims for the crimes fo a few then you must agree with Osama in that all those people in the WTC were guilty for the crimes other extremist Americans commited over the world.

123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 708 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000 http://ifamericaknew.org/
feel free to keep ignoreing this as well. It just proves that you know your argument is pathetically weak. The fact that the IDF terrorists murders 6 x's as many children as the Palistinian terrorists utterly destroys your claims of Israeli "victimhood"...

No Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 9,184 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

Palestines don't take prisoners. I have read of Palestine women tricking a Jew into going into Palestine territory where he was beaten tortured and killed.

Almost nobody wants to kill children. Jews know the importance of world opinion so they try to protect the children.

Palestines know the importance of world opinion so they use children for human shields. Palestines sacrafice their children so you can villify the Jews.

I recall reading about a Israeli tank shooting up a palestine girls school, killing scores of children. I dug a little deeper and learned that the school was an unmarked house. Two Palestine nuts were standing in front of the school shooting APG's at an Israeli tank the shooters were killed along the children in the school.

Palestines sacrifice their children to be killed so they can get world opinion against Israelis.

Once you accept the idea of killing all the Jews then you have no morals left to prevent you from sacrificing your children.

Old-reb your statements are contradicted by facts. Go up and read 500's post.

Originally posted by old-reb
Palestines don't take prisoners.

Reb, get a grip. Palestinians take prisoners. Their favorite passtime used to be hijacking planes and taking hostages.


I have read of Palestine women tricking a Jew into going into Palestine territory where he was beaten tortured and killed.

Sounds nasty, but all it proves is that the woman was a nasty woman. It says nothing about "muslims".


Almost nobody wants to kill children. Jews know the importance of world opinion so they try to protect the children.

Whose? Theirs, or the Palestinians, or both?


Palestines know the importance of world opinion so they use children for human shields.

I didn't see you posting any pictures of that.


Palestines sacrafice their children so you can villify the Jews.

Of course they do reb. They are after all not human, but rather sub-human animals who have no regard for human life. They need to be put down like the mad dogs they are ( sorry mad dog). Is this about where you're going with this line of thought?


I recall reading about a Israeli tank shooting up a palestine girls school, killing scores of children. I dug a little deeper and learned that the school was an unmarked house. Two Palestine nuts were standing in front of the school shooting APG's at an Israeli tank the shooters were killed along the children in the school.

It's hard to know what happened at the school based on what you posted.


Once you accept the idea of killing all the Jews then you have no morals left to prevent you from sacrificing your children.

Which is little different than accepting that all muslims are bad based on the actions of a few extremists.

"Children serve as infantry in the confrontations between Israeli and Palestinian soldiers. In scenes reminiscent of Iranian children sent to the Iraqi front equipped with plastic keys to heaven, Palestinian children are sent close to Israeli positions with rocks and Molotov cocktails, while the gunmen and snipers fire from positions hundreds of yards back." (Oct. 23, 2000)

The Jordanian newspaper "Alrai" (citing an interview with the Kuwaiti newspaper "Alzaman" on 20 June 2002), quotes Abu Mazen, Deputy Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, who spoke of how Palestinian children are being exploited into carrying out terror attacks:

"At least 40 children from the city of Raphah have lost their arms as a result of the explosions of pipe bombs. They received five Israeli shekels (about one U.S. dollar) for throwing them." (see original article at
http://honestreporting.com/graphics/abumazen.gif)

The Palestinian Authority has provided children with military training. The New York Times reports that 25,000 children were trained in the summer 2000 in PA camps in the use of firearms, the making of Molotov cocktails, the methods of kidnapping Israeli leaders, and conducting ambushes. (New York Times - Aug. 3, 2000)

The use of children reflects a long-time Palestinian strategy in the fight against Israel. In June 1982, the PLO issued a military call-up order for all boys aged 12 and older whose fathers served in Fatah units. The children were promised $80 a month and were attached to regular PLO battalions, each serving in his father's company.

Reb, get a grip. Palestinians take prisoners. Their favorite passtime used to be hijacking planes and taking hostages. heh...
+++++++++++

It'd be nice to see some sources on your post besides an image that for all you know says "this guy liked brokeback mountain"...

Oh, found it, this is great....

Heres where the source of your first claim comes from:

USA Today correspondent Jack Kelley observed: “Children serve as infantry in the confrontations between Israeli and Palestinian soldiers....Palestinian children are sent close to Israeli positions with rocks and Molotov cocktails, while the gunmen and snipers fire from positions hundreds of yards back.”"
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/reports/Children_Under_Fire_.asp

Who is Jack Kelley?

"Ex-USA TODAY reporter faked major stories
By Blake Morrison,USA TODAY
Seven weeks into an examination of former USA TODAY reporter Jack Kelley’s work, a team of journalists has found strong evidence that Kelley fabricated substantial portions of at least eight major stories, lifted nearly two dozen quotes or other material from competing publications, lied in speeches he gave for the newspaper and conspired to mislead those investigating his work."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-03-18-2004-03-18_kelleymain_x.htm

So your citing a extremly biased source using a quote from a reporter who fabricated most of his work. Good Job.

How does that foot taste?

India: Child Warriors in Jammu and Kashmir [News]

The Indian Army claims to be confronting a new problem along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir - teenaged militants, some as young as 13 or 14, wielding sophisticated arms.

According to an army spokesman here, Pakistan-based militant outfits Jaish-e-Mohammed, Harkat-ul-Mujahideen and even the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen have started pushing in teenagers to the Indian side.

The spokesman said in recent weeks, the army had apprehended nine such children armed with deadly weapons.

One of them was identified as 13-year-old Mohammad Islam of Sihota in Pakistan, the spokesman said. The teenager described to the army how he had been motivated for jehad and made to pick up guns.

Islam said that no member of his group was made aware of the hazards that they would have to face while crossing the LoC. Nor were they told of the electrified fencing along the LoC.

"There was no mention of that. We were simply pushed to this side and asked to fight against the Indian Army," Islam is reported to have said.

The army spokesman said the militant outfits' move to send "child warriors" was an act of desperation, with the top leadership of many groups having been wiped out.

Soldiers on the LoC now have to tread cautiously. On spotting young boys, they have to try to hold their fire. The soldiers' first attempt is to capture the children alive so they can be reformed.

Kashmir has been the scene of a bloody insurgency since 1989 that has claimed over 40,000 lives [Source: Times of India]

Posted on 2004-08-11
Back to [ACR Weekly Newsletter Vol. 3, No. 32 (11 August 2004)]

Child soldiers fighting Israelis:

Professor of Georgetown University William O'Brien wrote about active participation of Palestinian children in the First Intifada: "It appears that a substantial number, if not the majority, of troops of the intifada are young people, including elementary schoolchildren. They are engaged in throwing stones and Molotov cocktails and other forms of violence." (Law and Morality in Israel's War With the PLO, New York: Routledge, 1991)

According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers 2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers, there have been at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004, "[t]here was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups. However, children are used as messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians. All the main political groups involve children in this way, including Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine." [1]. According to Israeli security forces, there have been 229 cases of minors involved in militant activity.

Arab journalist Huda Al-Hussein wrote in the London newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat: "While UN Organizations save child-soldiers, especially in Africa, from the control of militia leaders who hurl them into the furnace of gang-fighting, some Palestinian leaders... consciously issue orders with the purpose of ending their childhood, even if it means their last breath." (Oct. 27, 2000, translated by MEMRI, Arab Journalist Decries Palestinian Child-Soldiers Special Dispatch 146, Nov. 1, 2000)

In an interview with the Kuwaiti newspaper Azzaman (June 20, 2002), Mahmoud Abbas condemned the practice, saying that he opposed "that little children go to die", stating that "[i]t is a horrible thing. At least 40 children in Rafah became cripples after their hands were blown off by pipe bombs. They received 5 shekels [slightly over $1] to throw them" (Quoted in the Jordanian newspaper Alrai) [2] [3].


On May 23, 2005, Amnesty International reiterated its calls to Palestinian armed groups to put an immediate end to the use of children in armed activities: "Palestinian armed groups must not use children under any circumstances to carry out armed attacks or to transport weapons or other material."

Well, I know its wrong but I don't blame them. It's like stealing candy from a baby. You never know what their reaction is going to be.You gonna get a reaction out of them. Some are going to be violent and some peaceful. Especially if you keep stealing from them. It takes a toll.

Originally posted by googs
Well, I know its wrong but I don't blame them.

You know it is wrong but you don't blame them. Hmmm

You agree with them but you want to think you don't agree with them????

Direct question: Is it ok for Palestines to use 12 and 13 year old children for combatants and is it ok to train them to throw bombs even when some 40 of them lost their limbs in training without even facing the hated Jews? NO double talk please.

No.

Next question.

Saskatchewan student newspaper Cartoon (http://lostbudgie.blogspot.com/2006/03/university-of-saskatchewan-jesus-oral.html)

Follow the above link to the Saskatchewan Sheaf to find an offensive cartoon printed in the University of Saskatchewan student newspaper showing Jesus fellating a pig. This student paper declined publishing the Muhhamed pictures lest they offend Muslims. It seems they have no such problem with offending Christians.

A list of advertisers is included in the site. Most are Canadian but Domino's Pizza is an American company that purports to have been started by a practicing and committed Christian. I have written to them expressing my dismay at their support of The Sheaf through their advertising and asking them to remove their advertising from the paper.

Letter writing expressing dismay with the offending cartoon is the way the West responds. Calling for the death of the cartoonist is the Muslim way of responding. So far there have been no calls for a fatwah against the publishers of The Sheaf by local parish ministers or by the Pope.

good for you Frogger!

I said I don't agree with the sucide bombing but I dont blame them for doing it.

Originally posted by googs
I said I don't agree with the sucide bombing but I dont blame them for doing it.

Exploiting cognitive dissonance: Islamic spokesman tend to be baffle television interviewers and puzzle viewers as they resort to double talk ‘clichés and platitudes’ concerning Islam. A state of cognitive dissonance-holding two contradictory beliefs and attempting to resolve them- is induced in viewers as they attempt to process the claim that Islam is a peaceful religion with the dissonant facts

Excellent point, Old-reb.

Yes they may have valid objections but they're still trying to reach a solution with 'lawlessness'. Maybe they just don't have the capacity to reason - just the capacity to react. Won't they be surprised if they don't find themselves where they thought they would be after committing suicide! It'll be too late then.

Did you see that movie about the cowboy who took his paint horse to Arabia to run a 3000 (?)mile race against the Arabians? I like what the English woman said about the fighting, something to the effect, "It's none of our concern - they've been doing it for thousands of years - it's their way of life."

Any group regardless of religious beliefs who choose violence, kill and display other acts of outrageous behavior are barbarians and have no right to be considered anything but barbarians.

Before you think this is dicriminating solely against Islam, you are sadly mistaken. I class a lot of christians in that very same category. Hate is hate no matter where it originate and the Islam community have done the damage themselves. I watched the riots on the media, to say that is not a violent nature is an outrageous statement that is ignoring the evidence.

Did you see that movie about the cowboy who took his paint horse to Arabia to run a 3000 (?)mile race against the Arabians? I like what the English woman said about the fighting, something to the effect, "It's none of our concern - they've been doing it for thousands of years - it's their way of life.

I believe the movie was called Hidalgo. The violence and the lack of tolerance is a way of life that many refuse to acknowledge. Islam and christianity are very similar in that they have both promoted violence for centuries and both deny all of it.

I don't think they deny it - they justify it. There is no justice in getting even
or revenge. All this talk of weapons building is insane. If people had experienced Hiroshima and the results of that bomb I should think they would ban nuclear weapons and the death of innocents and we'd see the return of dualing. (?sp).