Thought it was time for a new topic to help get things going again in here....

For those of you who know absoutly nothing about this topic here is alittle background notes for you.

Mumia Abu-Jamal was a radio journalist in Philadelphia, known as "the voice of the voiceless" during the years of the infamous racist mayor, Frank Rizzo. Mumia won a Major Armstrong Award for radio journalism, and was named one of Philadelphia's "people to watch" in 1981 by Philadelphia magazine. He was president of the Association of Black Journalists in Philadelphia, and he had no prior criminal record.

In December of 1981, Mumia was shot by a Philadelphia cop when he came upon a street incident where the cop was beating his brother with a flashlight. The police officer was also shot and killed, and witnesses saw one or more men run from the scene. Yet when police arrived, they beat the wounded Mumia before taking him to the hospital, and he was charged with murder.

Mumia's brother and another eyewitness who say Mumia is innocent were harassed by police and driven out of town. Other witnesses changed their stories to implicate Mumia and were rewarded. The dead officer was holding the driver's license application of a third man. But it was Mumia that the cops wanted to get.

Mumia had been a member of the Black Panther Party, and later a supporter of the MOVE organization. He was a vocal critic of police violence against the minority communities of Philadelphia, a city that was sued by the United States Department of Justice seeking to end the notorious brutality there. The FBI and Philadelphia police had hundreds of pages of surveillance files on Mumia, beginning when he was 15 years old, for his outspoken opposition to racism and police brutality.

People began to question the charging of Mumia, so two months after the shooting incident the police suddenly put forward the phony claim that Mumia had "confessed" in the hospital emergency room, but they had forgotten to mention it at the time or write it in their reports. The written reports and the emergency room doctor said Mumia made no statement.

Mumia was then barred from most of his own trial for protesting an unprepared court-appointed attorney who was later disbarred. Eleven peremptory challenges were used to knock almost all Blacks off the jury. Vital evidence was withheld from the defense, and police were unable to establish that the fatal bullet came from Mumia's gun.

The politics behind the frame-up was made clear when the prosecutor argued for the death penalty by reading to the jury revolutionary quotations from a published interview with Mumia from ten years earlier. The jury was told this is a dangerous Black revolutionary.

In hearings for a new trial, a witness used against Mumia in his first trial came forward to say that she lied under police coercion. In retaliation, she was arrested in the courtroom as she stepped off the witness stand on an old warrant from another state. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court (5 of 7 justices endorsed for election by the Fraternal Order of Police) then ruled against a new trial.

Mumia has now asked a federal court to order a new trial. But a new law orders federal judges to presume the decisions of state courts to be correct! This is why the people now have to demand justice.

For the last 17 years Mumia has been locked alone in a cell 23 hours a day, denied contact visits with his family. His confidential legal mail has been opened and reproduced by prison authorities. He was put into punitive detention for writing a book Live From Death Row. Reporters are still prohibited from filming or recording interviews with him. As Jamal has put it, "They don't just want my death, they want my silence."

Mumia's case concentrates the whole atmosphere of criminalizing Black men, the expanded death penalty, the political persecution of revolutionaries, police brutality, and the gutting of defendants' rights.

Please note that this is serious, you could be the next one having your rights taken away.

If intrested in the movement of freeing and helping him seek a trail that is justice for Mumia Abu-Jamal please check out these sites
- mumia.org
- j4mumia.org

Big thanks to j4mumia.org for allowing me use this material

I will agree to some of that, but some of it I can not agree with.

Police are just as crooked as some of the people they arrest. I just feel that people need not to be afraid of the police, but know how to stand up to them. They are not above the law.

I am not for hurting another human being ever. But if he did shoot them then he deserves every thing he has. And as much as I hate to say this, if they have no evidence then let im go.

Sometime depending on what I am thinking, I would rather kill one innocent person than let 10 convicted murders go free and then the way it is meant to be is I would rather let 10 convicted people go than kill 1 innocent person...

Its so hard, but this clearly shows some type of cover up.

Well I'm going to read more.. but from what I've read he cried about his trial.. Then got a trial with a white jury.. I mean I don't know why race has that much to do with it. The law is the law if the jury found him guilty he had his chance, they found that he was a murderer; there [b:76814b721b] must [/b:76814b721b] have been some evidence; juries are made of people.. Anyways if he is a murder I don't really think he should be given [b:76814b721b] any [/b:76814b721b] rights.. I mean, if he didn't kill someone that's terrible; but did he / or did he not recieve a fair trial???.. He got a trial to attempt to have a real trial so if he failed that, how would he win the actual trial.. Of course I do believe that it wouldn't hurt to give him another trial; I mean as long as people can't haveing retrials until he wins.. one more time couldn't hurt anything..

I care...take another trial take another bunch of my tax dollars I just filed for.....:stupid:

Some fact for you to look at so you can see that this is injust and must be stoped this has to do with mumia being a black panther, and for just his color. This case is not only to free mumia from this injust system but to abloish the death penlty.

The policeman was killed with a 44 caliber gun. Abu-Jamal's gun which he was licensed to carry as a night-time taxi driver, was a 38 caliber.

* The police never tested Abu-Jamal's gun to see if it had been recently fired. They never tested his hands to see if he had fired a gun. They have never shown Abu-Jamal 's gun to be the fatal weapon.

* No police officers present at Abu-Jamal's arrest claimed to have heard Jamal's "confession" until two months after it allegedly occurred. This was right after Abu-Jamal had filed police brutality charges.

* Abu-Jamal's doctor said that Abu-Jamal, who was unconscious, said nothing. He reported that a nurse found police with loaded guns pointed at Mumia as he lay unconscious in his hospital bed.

* William Singletary, a Vietnam veteran and local businessman, saw the whole incident and has testified that Abu-Jamal was not the shooter. However, the police forced him to change his story and intimidated him into leaving Philadelphia.

* Other key witnesses, such as Veronica Jones -- who now testifies in support of Abu-Jamal, were harassed into giving false testimony. Two prosecution witnesses were given special favors, including exemption from criminal prosecution, for their testimony.

Elements in an unfair trial:

* The Judge, Albert Sabo, sentenced more people to death than any other sitting judge in the US.

* The public defender didn't interview a single witness in preparation for the trial, and didn't have funds for defending a capital case.

* The prosecutor removed 11 qualified African Americans from the jury. He also argued for the death penalty because of Mumia's membership in the Black Panther Party, a practice later condemned as unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court.

* The racial bias of Philadelphia's courts has resulted in 120 people on death row, all but 13 non-white.

Well so basically your arguing the case for him.. We have a established legal system; if you don't agree with that then fight congress...

[quote:c00eb4dbd4]* The Judge, Albert Sabo, sentenced more people to death than any other sitting judge in the US. [/quote:c00eb4dbd4]
==Big freakin deal! If he did kill someone he deserves to die!

[quote:c00eb4dbd4]* The public defender didn't interview a single witness in preparation for the trial, and didn't have funds for defending a capital case. [/quote:c00eb4dbd4] Well surly the judges/etc have reviewed this in preparation for a retrial.. You can't tell me all judges hate him because he's black.. Thats bull ....

[quote:c00eb4dbd4]* The prosecutor removed 11 qualified African Americans from the jury. He also argued for the death penalty because of Mumia's membership in the Black Panther Party, a practice later condemned as unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court. [/quote:c00eb4dbd4] He argued that... So again, your saying [b:c00eb4dbd4]after he was convicted[/b:c00eb4dbd4] he shouldn't have been punished so badly.. If he was found not guilty it wouldn't matter what punishment he got.. I think all intentional murders should get executed.

[quote:c00eb4dbd4]* The racial bias of Philadelphia's courts has resulted in 120 people on death row, all but 13 non-white.[/quote:c00eb4dbd4] Different areas different statistics..

First off you can clearly tell this is injust you can't defend everything I've brought up. And race has somthing to do with it I think if he was not a black panther and was white they would of found justice for him. Read up on this topic more how can you win a court case when they don't allow you to defend your self in court? And under any circumstances shall anyone die threw the death penlty they prosicute people for killing but what do they do go and kill another human... Police have ran out his brother and witnesses who have defended him. Police beat him even when he was wounded. When in the hospital they lined up around his bed with guns pointing at him. He has had close watch on him since the age of 15 looking for every way to frame him wow it just happened that this was the perfect chance to do so. The justice system has put words into Mumia's mouth saying that he said when he was in the hospital that he was infact the murderer when the nurse has defended him saying nothing of that came out of his mouth. I quote from you jwb that if he did kill someone he deserves to die no one deserves to die. And I can tell you he is hated because of his belifes if you give him a white judge and 11 white jury memebers and him being a black panther what do you think there vertic is going to be? By removing 11 black jury memebrs due to there race is illegal and also them saying his affliation was unconstitutional is a lie no matter what his race, belifes are he should of had a review and being apart of a group liek that is not unconstitutional. In Philly whites to as sever things as do the blacks so to say diffrent place diffrent stats is not true you can see that this judge is racially biased when he has killed 107 blacks and only 13 white does not not seem a bit odd? Also says they did not have the money for a capital case then what are they doing holding this case that is also illegal... Veronica Jones who is in support of mumia was forced to tell false testimonys it does not take a lawer to find that strange. William Singletary, a Vietnam veteran and local businessman, saw the whole incident and has testified that Abu-Jamal was not the shooter. However, the police forced him to change his story and intimidated him into leaving Philadelphia nothing fishy about that huh? So read carefully next time and you will be able to see that everything I have stated has shown that the US justice system is here to frame mumia because of his color and belifes nothing about this case has been justice thorwing people out of town, telling them to lie for the united states justice system all wrongs now I remember why I don't support are goverment.

I am kinda confused so if I am on trial for murder does that mean I can or can not have white juries?

I am puzzled at the race issue....if its going your way its all good if its not then its cause your black/white/mexicano/whatever.......

I look past color and try to see the real person which I think I usually can.....But that is bull crap...why does he have to have black jury members to get a fair trial? Are you saying all people have a racial idea in there head.

No I don't think all people have problems with someones race but I do think it is still a big problem I don't know how often you watch the news but almost everytime I turn it on I hear of a racial murder or attack. And by the court riding of black jury members shows you that this is a racial case if it was not then why would the rid of the black jury members. They did this knowing that they would defend Mumia and help free him so to continue to make him look like the one who murdered the police officer they took out all the black jury members. Also the white american is still biased towords blacks.(note: I'm not saying all) And you said if it was going good then the race issue would not be part of the case open your eyes the case has never gone good and the race issue is a factor considering the fact Mumia is a former Black Panther leader and most white americans see that and think of murders which is not true so don't you think that they will convict him if the jury is white. And the removing of the 11 jury members shows you that the justice system is biased towords blacks. Look at society today and tell me if blacks are still one of the most discrimnated races ever and is still being discrimnated than don't you think if a majority of the jury members being white still hold some type of opinion on black looking at them as all murders, low life drug addicts and all it takes to convict someone is majority vote.

The reason I only debated a few topics was --- I wasn't debating rather he was guilty or not; I was trying to determine if he recieved a fair trial.. I mean thats the point. If he had a fair trial and was found guilty he's with anthor ton of cruel people who... But I hate when race gets in it. Maybe that judge has more trials with whites than blacks? Have you seen those statistics, the ratio of whites to blacks in court cases? NO!! Everywhere in the world is race proportionate.. Anyways it must not have been illegal to bump 11 people off the jury if they did, and everyone knows about it.. I really need to do some more research.. I don't think we're getting the whole truth; if he was never given a fair trial, never given a chance to talk, then more people would have heard about it!.... One question = when he "protested" his trial does that mean he requested a retrial or started screaming and had to be forcefully removed from the court room?

I'm going to do some research.. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt for now,,, its just so unlikely thats the real story...

All I am saying is that I dislike the race card. It is often played more politically than others.

I personally do not hate anyone because of race, nor anythinkg lack there of.

But personally I have an idea...the white male is one of the most descriminated people in todays society...who have caused all school shootings?

Females get special treatment because they re females, and if your a black female double wamo

I just think that in today's society people can not or should say will not forgive color/race.
How someone can hate another human being for the color of their skin I will never know...but him being part of a known hate society doesnt look too good for him either

This trail has become so big is because of activism thank you to everyone trying to free him and make a change in are justice system. Also this is the united states justice system they lie, cheat all the time and get away with it you know why because they can. He has never had a chance to defend him self in court only his lawer can read what he has said so by doing that he can get a re-trial. And when they say protested they mean asked for a re-trail which still I might add is not justifyed as justice.

Here is some interesting information...
[quote:a8f728efcd]
[i:a8f728efcd]from http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html[/i:a8f728efcd]

C. RACE, SENTENCING AND THE DEATH PENALTY

1) The most vile strategy of death penalty opponents is their use of propaganda to nurture hatreds and mistrust between race and class. Bryan Stevenson, a well known opposition spokesman and attorney with Equal Justice Initiative (Montgomery, Al.), claims that the death penalty reflects the middle class’ desire to strike out at the poor and racial minorities ("A Matter of Life and Death", Christianity Today, 8/14/95). Sister Helen Prejean (Dead Man Walking) joins this hideous chorus, proclaiming that "(m)iddle-class and upper middle-class white people...are so much for the death penalty (to) ‘Keep those dangerous people (the poor and minorities) in their place.’ " ("Opposing the Death Penalty", AMERICA, 11/9/96. pg.12.) Clearly, these statements reveal only their prejudice. Prejean continues "It didn’t take long to see that for poor people, especially poor black people, there was a greased track to prison and death row." (The Progressive, 1/96, p. 32(4) 60,1). Is Sister Prejean saying that poor minorities are incapable of stopping themselves from committing capital murder!? Not only are Sister Prejean’s statements false, they are also grossly insulting to the poor and to minorities. Over 99% of all persons, including poor minorities, restrain themselves from committing capital murder. And there is, of course, no excuse for anyone that commits capital murder. Stevenson and Prejean do hereby reflect either their unbelievable ignorance or their willful and foul deception. Based on their active involvement in the death penalty debate, both Stevenson and Prejean should (must?) be aware that (1) In the most extensive study of the economics of death row inmates, it was shown that, while 74% of Georgia murderers were poor, only 38% of those on Georgia’s death row were poor (C.13).; (2) there is no consensus in statistical analysis which proves that wealthy capital murders are less likely to be executed than their poorer ilk. In fact, statistics indicate that wealthy capital murderers may be more likely to be executed. (C.13); (3) the majority of those on death row are white (NAACP LDF, 1996); (4) the majority of those executed are white (C.2); (5) since 1929, white murderers have been more likely to have been executed than black murderers (C.10); (6) "...white murderers, no matter who they kill, are more likely to get the death penalty than black murderers (11.1% to 7.3%). Furthermore, whites who kill whites are slightly more likely to be on death row than blacks who kill whites. Finally, whites who kill blacks are slightly more likely to be on death row than blacks who kill whites." (Jared Taylor, Paved With Good Intentions, 40-41,Carroll & Graf Pub.,1992; (7) whites are executed 15 months quicker than blacks ("Capital Punishment, 1995", BJS 1996); (8) Whites are executed at rates nearly 50% above their involvement in murder. Blacks are executed at rates 20% below their involvement in murder. (C.2); and finally, (9) Murderers are put to death, not based on the race or economic status of the victim or the murderer, but based upon death penalty statutes, the aggravated nature of and all specific circumstances of the crime, the criminal background of the murderer, and the other specific factors mandated by Supreme Court decisions. Since 1973, there is absolutely no credible evidence to support any other conclusion. Despicably, opponents cry "RACISM!" to further their agenda, knowing, full well, that such claims are false.
[/quote:a8f728efcd]

And here's a site by the supporters of the officer that was killed about all those myths! I know there is conflicting stories from both sides. But it does seem like some people have evidence against this person.
danielfaulkner.com/mythsdir.html

Yeah note that those are myths on facts you can't convict someone on myths only facts and they prove that he is not the murder.

Well this goes back to the fact, both sides are prejudice...

they each saw it at a different point of view, and eyewitnesses in ttoday's society have been made out to be liars since reports have come out...

no offense confused youth, but thats the exact point. That article proves all your "facts" are actually just myths!

e.g. [quote:ce0abd6c28]Receipts were produced at the 1995 PCRA hearing to verify that Jamal received in excess of ,000 (In 1982 dollars.) to mount his defense in 1982. Contrary to HBO's erroneous allegation, with this money Jamal and his ....[/quote:ce0abd6c28]

No you are wrong everything I've said has been a fact. I will show how I am right

The policeman was killed with a 44 caliber gun. Abu-Jamal's gun which he was licensed to carry as a night-time taxi driver, was a 38 caliber.

Why would he have a 44 caliber when he is licensed to carry a 38 caliber?

The police never tested Abu-Jamal's gun to see if it had been recently fired. They never tested his hands to see if he had fired a gun. They have never shown Abu-Jamal 's gun to be the fatal weapon.

Don't you seem this to be odd because him gun WAS NEVER FIRED they just don't you to know that again thats the united states legal system lying again

No police officers present at Abu-Jamal's arrest claimed to have heard Jamal's "confession" until two months after it allegedly occurred. This was right after Abu-Jamal had filed police brutality charges

Even the police officers that arrested him openly say he never confessed to anything yet are legal system has another lie to add to there list because they courts have again put words into mumias mouth by saying he confessed

Abu-Jamal's doctor said that Abu-Jamal, who was unconscious, said nothing. He reported that a nurse found police with loaded guns pointed at Mumia as he lay unconscious in his hospital bed

can we say police brutality....but here is another sorce saying mumia did not say anything about commiting this murder yet are legal system has it stuck in there head he did

William Singletary, a Vietnam veteran and local businessman, saw the whole incident and has testified that Abu-Jamal was not the shooter. However, the police forced him to change his story and intimidated him into leaving Philadelphia

Police harrasing William Singletary is that legal? Also here is another witness confesing UNDER OATH that mumia has nothing to do with the murder

Other key witnesses, such as Veronica Jones -- who now testifies in support of Abu-Jamal, were harassed into giving false testimony. Two prosecution witnesses were given special favors, including exemption from criminal prosecution, for their testimony.

WOW another witness are we losing count yet I mean think for a second to really believe all these people would lie. Falso testimony is that legal? dont think so why is the judge still free to roam and not in jail seems like made someone lie under oath is that legal....dont think so also harrasment is that legal uh dont think so... Prosecution witness given special favors that is not legal either wow are legal system breaks more laws than most convicts in jail.....

The Judge, Albert Sabo, sentenced more people to death than any other sitting judge in the US

Gezz... I wonder why they chose this judge oh yeah he has sentenced more people death than any other judge I wonder why maybe are legal system wants mumia dead

The public defender didn't interview a single witness in preparation for the trial, and didn't have funds for defending a capital case.

I wonder why he did not interview a single witness and did not have funds for defendinga capital case gezz are system is breaking another law and I wonder why BECAUSE THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT

The prosecutor removed 11 qualified African Americans from the jury. He also argued for the death penalty because of Mumia's membership in the Black Panther Party, a practice later condemned as unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court

Using the death penalty because someone is a Black Panther hrm that is very unconstitutional and why did he haft to remove the african americans if they where qualified just like any other white person if they are qualified wont they do as good as job as a qualified white person?

The racial bias of Philadelphia's courts has resulted in 120 people on death row, all but 13 non-white

WOW notice how it says racial bias I wonder what that means oh yeah more blacks are prosicuted for the same crimes whites do hrm that seems a bit odd and illegal

This is a battle your not going to win because the facts I have given you all point towards another person and not mumia and can I say this how many of you would lie if you saw a crime taken place where ones life was taken for the killer no one so why would those witnesses lie?

I dont want to copy and paste all the other sides arguments.. Click around that site they seem to have facts that prove everything you just listed wrong (Im not saying either one of you are wrong.. But someone has to be)

Example that .40 gun thing:
[quote:c3c9ce9c7e]MYTH #1

Those who support Mumia Abu-Jamal often allege that the bullet removed from Officer Faulkner's brain was .44 caliber. Jamal's gun -- found on the ground next to him at the crime scene -- was a .38 caliber revolver. Therefore, his supporters argue, Jamal couldn't have fired the shot that killed Officer Faulkner.

When asked to provide proof to support this allegation, Jamal's supporters point to a handwritten note made by Assistant Medical Examiner, Dr. Paul Hoyer. Dr. Hoyer's note said, "shot 44 Cal".

Dr. Hoyer testified at the 1995 PCRA Hearing and explained that his 1981 note merely reflected his speculation at what caliber the bullet might be, made when he first saw the wound and before he started the autopsy. The note was written on a piece of scrap paper, and was not a part of (and was never intended to be a part of) his professional findings.

Some of Jamal's supporters, including his attorneys, have now altered this ".44 caliber" myth, and now argue that that there may be several fragments of the bullet "missing," and that if these fragments were the correct size and weight, they would prove that the bullet was .44 caliber. They have never offered any evidence, of any kind, to support this theory.

more available....Click in that window on the previous page.
[/quote:c3c9ce9c7e]

This guy has made tons of money by killing this man, from 2 books and more publications.. I believe the reason he has so much "support" is because he's paying so much money for it....

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing another trial as long as he agrees if he's guilty the officers family gets all of his money and he and his groups will stop whining!

also you say :
The public defender didn't interview a single witness in preparation for the trial, and didn't have funds for defending a capital case.

They say he recieved over $13,000 for his first trial, and because of his behavior in the court room.. you know.....

We both don't have any "real" proof..

IF THERE IS NO REAL PROOF THEN YOU CANT CONVICT HIM THERE FOR HE SHALL BE LET GO!!!!!!

lol I'm not saying there isn't any proof Im saying we , as a person, don't have proof to argue over.. We're both just reading the opposite sides web pages.. I feel that the court system wouldn't rip anyone off like that and that he just wants attention/ to get out..

The only way to get out of death row is to draw attention do you really think he is going to sit in there and not protest I mean would'nt you are you just going to sit in the cell all day wondering when your time is up. And I've been reading up on this case for around a year now and I've looked at both sides and at first I was alittle optomistic but after awhile I started to but 2 and 2 together and I noticed that this is really injust and I can list many reasons why also no one should haft to sit on death row for 20 years... correction no one should haft to sit in death row.

I agree, if he was not guilty he doesn't deserve to sit on death row.. BUT!! If someone kills someone I love I think they should sit there until they die, I wouldn't accept someone getting out after 30 years.. Justice.

Welcome to the ConfusedYouth JWB show I find it funny we are about the only ones replying but anyway.....

I don't agree with the death penlty and a big part of the protest for mumia are to abolish the death penlty. I don't think because someone goes out and kills another human that they should be served to death. I don't condone what they did it is still very wrong but at the same time I don't condone to death penlty. My reasons to abolish capital punishment are:

- The death penalty has failed as a public policy experiment. Innocent people are being sent to death row. It is applied with severe racial and economic bias. We are executing juveniles and the mentally retarded. And it is much more expensive than a life without parole sentence [note: DNA testing has freed 100 Americans from death row] that is a huge number so you can imagine the number of innocent people killed on death row.

-While the individual executed would certainly not commit another crime, research indicates the death penalty does not serve as a general deterrent to crime, that is, having the death penalty does not reduce the overall rate of crime

-While murder rates have indeed increased everywhere in the past ten years, they have increased more in states with the death penalty

-By killing those who kill, we teach that killing is sometimes right

-It's difficult for us to imagine a murderer ever going on to lead a good life. In fact, however, research has proven that those who commit murder are generally less likely to re-offend than most other prisoners. Studies of those who were on death row who were later released because of court decisions prove this fact

- A decent and humane society does not deliberately kill human beings. An execution is a dramatic, public spectacle of official, violent homicide that teaches the permissibility of killing people to solve social problems -- the worst possible example to set for society. In this century, governments have too often attempted to justify their lethal fury by the benefits such killing would bring to the rest Or society. The bloodshed is real and deeply destructive of the common decency of the community; the benefits are illusory

-The death penalty violates the constitutional guarantee of the equal protection of the laws. It is applied randomly at best and discriminatorily at worst. It is imposed disproportionately upon those whose victims are white, on offenders who are people of color, and on those who are themselves poor and uneducated

[best said by]
by Fred E Foldary, Senior Editor
The only moral justification for killing a person is direct self-defense. When a criminal is confined in prison, he does not threaten society, so killing him is not justified by self-defense. And even if capital punishment deters others from committing similar crimes, this would be an indirect defense against murder rather than directly from the criminal being killed. Direct self-defense implies killing someone who himself, at that time, is a threat to other persons, and this precludes taking human life just for punishment.

So you can clearly see that capital punishment does not deter crime and is also uncivilized.

[quote:2dea209c57]-The death penalty violates the constitutional guarantee of the equal protection of the laws. It is applied randomly at best and discriminatorily at worst. It is imposed disproportionately upon those whose victims are white, on offenders who are people of color, and on those who are themselves poor and uneducated [/quote:2dea209c57]

Haven't you read the real statistics? That's stupid.. I found some factual numbers..

Basically this has turned into a debate of the death sentence.. Which is aparantly the second most important thing to the Abalabla guy, (their goals of Making $$, protesting the death sentence, and getting him out of jail).

Anyways why does someone who kills someone not deserve to die? If someone kills me and they go to jail, then get out and have 30-40 more years of enjoyment?? HELL NO! That's stupid!

I guess you have a hard time reading carfully because I've stated a couple of times that LIFE WITHOUT PAROL is an aternative way to the death penlty. If you don't understand what that means it clearly states man or womyn will spend the rest of there life in jail with out having the chance to become a free man or womyn. Also the money he has drown from his books and etc. have gone to activism he has not seen one red penny. Activist are here to help make changes in the world to better the life of us, animals, and are enviroment is that really bad? And if I was killed or someone very close to was I would not wish death on the murder is that how are society thinks today it is okay to take someones life if they do wrong? Also in are constitution it says that crual and unussual punishment is highly illegal but isn't the killing of a human crual and unussual punishment but then you can go saying well the murder killed someone isn't that crual punishment towards another human yes it is but do two wrongs make a right?

Justice is right, if you don't want to die, dont kill someone. If someone punches you in the face what would you do? Say it's alright, two wrongs don't make a right *BAM* what do you do? ... Anyways life without the possibility of parole is 30 years bro :) really, parole means get out before 30 years, yea thats what life means. A life of 100 or more years is more valuable than 30 to me.

If someone punched me I would not belittle my self down to there level and fight back. I do not condone war, violence or the death penlty and I would die for me belifes so you want see me getting suspended for fighting but if I was called to war you also would not see me on that front line either I would rather go to jail. life without parole means they spend the rest of there days in jail it does not mean they get out after 30 years. There have been convicts in jail for 30 or more years and where sentenced with life with out parole that why they call it "life with out parole." Also make new laws stating people who murder shall spend the rest of there life in jail don't kill them. I quote you "if you don't want to die dont kill" well read the statistics and you will a large majority of them have mentally retarded dis-orders. Today in are society people live by do back to what other do to you well thats not true if someone punches me in the face I will look at them and ask what does violence solve by fighting what do I really help? That deals with the death penlty because if they kill someone and then you take there life what does that help? And it seems like the only points you have brought up have been lame [mean that in a nice way] your telling me because a convict kills that they should be killed that does nothing helps nothing and solves nothing read the statistics crime in states without capital punishment have lower crime rates. Texas has taken more lifes than any other state still seems crime is up in that area do does the death penlty really help?

Have you ever thought maybe states that have higher crime rate would have a higher death penalty? It only makes since, more crime more punishment.

I have a hard time believing you would let someone whoop your --- and not attempt to defend yourself.

I believe that eliminating a killer would keep him off the streets and from killing again.

I guess you were right about life in prison, but many killers get "thirty years to life", which is unacceptable. If the prisoner was punished enough life in prison (forever) might be enough, but then the people whose loved ones were killed have to pay taxes for his prison stay. Costing the government, and tax payers, a lot more money.

"Have you ever thought maybe states that have higher crime rate would have a higher death penalty? It only makes since, more crime more punishment"

I stated that states who no longer use the death penlty have had crime rates drop rather than states that still use it and this is just not one state this is the majority of the states who no longer use it

"have a hard time believing you would let someone whoop your --- and not attempt to defend yourself".

No this is real life I have had people who have wanted to fight me and have even done violent acts towords me and I am still yet to lay a finger on them like I said I don't support violence, and never would I support WAR, or hate I don't a single human I dis-agree with what they do but I show them respect because maybe by doing that they can change. would I lie I've seemed to be one of the most open persons on this board so I don't think so

"believe that eliminating a killer would keep him off the streets and from killing again."

Having a convicted murder behind bars would not keep him off the streets?

"I guess you were right about life in prison, but many killers get "thirty years to life", which is unacceptable. If the prisoner was punished enough life in prison (forever) might be enough, but then the people whose loved ones were killed have to pay taxes for his prison stay. Costing the government, and tax payers, a lot more money."

Like I also said before In fact, however, research has proven that those who commit murder are generally less likely to re-offend than most other prisoners. Studies of those who were on death row who were later released because of court decisions prove this fact so you want killers behind bars but not people who rob and steal? Also facts and studies have proven that putting someone to death is much more expensive than a life without parole sentence. [ I've said all this before I HATE repeating my self]

That is fubar.....

I dont care you have a mental disorder....murder is murder

I am missing a tear duct due to a teacher leaving NaOH out and a boy got a hold of it and squirted in to my left eye, my vision my light sensitivity and worsten...Now should I have taken that and said its ok, your a problem child? Hell No!!!!

I didnt hurt him I screamed in pain, cause I was in so much pain I wanted to die. I prayed to God he would have killed me that moment, cause it hurt so bad. No one that I tlk to knows what I feel. Now I know people that are in worst pain than I and I hate that....But the guy who did it has gone without a sentence I feel unpunished enough...So I grow sick of convicted murders getting out when the victims are still dead/hurt

Sorry I am biased but I dont give a ----

I dont care you have a mental disorder....murder is murder

Don't be so closed minded maybe you don't care if they have a dis-order because you don't know what goes threw there mind, and body because you don't have anything wrong with you and murder is still murder and mental person with a dis-order does not know any better also juveniles are being sent to death. Like I stated before INNOCENT PEOPLE have been sent to death thanks to dna testing a handful of them have been let go but like I said only a handful.

I am missing a tear duct due to a teacher leaving NaOH out and a boy got a hold of it and squirted in to my left eye, my vision my light sensitivity and worsten...Now should I have taken that and said its ok, your a problem child? Hell No!!!!

I'm sorry about your eye but yes the kid should on been punished for what he did unless it was an accident but really is that as sever as death and would anyone really be sentenced to death over that?

didnt hurt him I screamed in pain, cause I was in so much pain I wanted to die. I prayed to God he would have killed me that moment, cause it hurt so bad. No one that I tlk to knows what I feel. Now I know people that are in worst pain than I and I hate that....But the guy who did it has gone without a sentence I feel unpunished enough...So I grow sick of convicted murders getting out when the victims are still dead/hurt

You know people who are is worse pain than you are convicts don't fill pain are regret for what they did so putting them to death will fix everything and if it was an accident really what would the sentence him for? And I grow sick of are justice system thinking they have to justify a point by war or taking lives...

Well the whole point of the matter is that he went unpunished and now that a guy is being punished and just 30 years...

I say ---- their regret....I don't care............the guy is still dead is he not...........?

I say if you can kill someone then you can go free if not get your --- to the electric chair........

Sorry to sound harsh but some stuff really makes me mad

Saying that it would be cheaper to have prison space for someone for 50 or more years, feeding them, and buying them crap is cheaper than sticking them with a needle? That is 100% bull.

And also you said its a fact that murders are less likly to recommit the crime, oh so since most murders only kill one person they should be let go; because most murders dont kill someone else, only a few :moron:

I say ---- their regret....I don't care............the guy is still dead is he not...........?

So because he killed someone he can't change and it is not alright for him to kill but it is for the United States goverment to?

I say if you can kill someone then you can go free if not get your --- to the electric chair........

That is your parents talking please give me a break you find it horrable when innocent people die but when a murder is killed it is alright no murder is not right at all what would be wrong having the killer behind bars for the rest of there life and the electric chair is no longer used so all they would be doing is sitting in it...

Saying that it would be cheaper to have prison space for someone for 50 or more years, feeding them, and buying them crap is cheaper than sticking them with a needle? That is 100% bull

Facts prove that it is cheaper to keep a person in prison the cost for the vaccine used in the death penlty is very expensive compared to just feeding him 3 crappy meals a day and they don't buy him anything he gets an organge jump suit and covers used by the convict who came in before him also people behind bars can be useful to are enviroment they can help deter pollution by cleaning highways up sorting recycled goods and much more also keeping a convict gives others jobs like officers and cooks also janitor type workers who help clean sheets, clothing and other stuff

And also you said its a fact that murders are less likly to recommit the crime, oh so since most murders only kill one person they should be let go; because most murders dont kill someone else, only a few

Well if you knew anything at all you would of knew that being hehind bars gives many convicts a change to gain a GED or become educated past a high school level also many convicted killers learn what they did was wrong and unlawful why behind bars not why they are killing and still free to roam unti they are cought

My 50th post whooohooo.......

[aaaaahhhhh i hate to get on the religon :rolleyes: topic again but it is needed
Anyway I know you all are big belivers in the bible and It's been awhile since I've opened a bible basically because I'm agnostic and have no reason in doing so but I think it says thou shall not kill it does not say it is alright to kill the person who killed well when the United States justice system uses the death penlty aren't they killing a human also death is alright as long as it is the justice system taking the life not a regular human off the streets? being you make your selves look like fools and hipocrites you can't support the bible and christanity and the death penlty at the same time next time think before you start believing in two things that totally go against each other also I find it to be a bit odd when someone (my self) who does not read the bible obeys by it better than people who do read it.

An eye for a eye..

It cost most to kill someone than it does to support them for even 5 years, but in many cases 50 and more?? That's the most ridiculous crap I've heard. I'm sorry listein to what you're saying. The drugs can't be that expensive! You could pump some household chemical or even AIR in someones blood stream and kill them.

Everyone please stop trying to bypass the censored word list.

I noticed that you skiped the religon part maybe because I brought up a point you can't defend? Also the only person who has tried to bypass the censorship is on of your very own mods I was just repeating what he said so I could make my point. Also it is more expensive because the drug they use to kill is very expensive also they dont decide one day to take this persons life and the next day kill him there is alot of preperation up to the point of death that also cost lots of money and these very test that say that this fact is true was done by the united states who have researched it and said it was them selves. Also the average meal in jail does not cost hardly anything. And also you bypassed all my points about the benifits of convicts in jail again if you can't defend the points i brought up about religon you should not bother posting your opinion because it really make no sense to favor the bible but also favor the death penlty

If I am coming off as strong do not take offense to it I'm stating my opinion very strongly to get my points and view across to you and you don't do that by sounding like a panzy. I respect peoples view and opinions just like I expect them to respect mine also I commend JWB and thecomputerguy for sharing there views but at the same time I wish we could get a more diverse crowd in here anyway enough of this lets get back to the real topic...

Thou Shall Not Murder

not kill...
I feel an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth and a brother for a brother is almost equal.

Under the Clinton administration many were murdered at Ruby Ridge over 1/4 of an inch barrel on a shotgun, which could have easily been avoided...

Then Texas with Caresh....he went jogging every morning at 6:30...they had music and lights on them 24/7 so they could break them by going insane...and they fired on them first...and the one agent that died from a shot was killed by the own US gun....

Thou shall not murder than what do you consider the death penlty they are killing a human being in its process there fore it is murder... The dictionary's definition of murder is The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice. Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder. Death penlty is unlawful and is also done by a human being so there fore you are breaking one of the most importdant commandments by supporting the death penlty thou shall not kill it's just are goverments gets away with the killing of people because they can and will continue to unless there is a change.

[quote:0ff675aa15]Death penlty is unlawful[/quote:0ff675aa15]

BULL BUTTER!! In our government the death-penalty is practiced, under the laws our democratic goverment has made!

Murder is still wrong even if it is a practice by are goverment just because are jutice system does it mean it is right?

well we are a republic not a democracy.

say the pledge if you wish to argue this point...

To be technical we are a democratic republic. The point is even in your definition murder is the UNLAWFUL killing, so basically you just changed your mind, now even though its not murder it's still wrong... Which means it wouldn't be a sin, correct?

PS I was just saying that no ---- to everyone

I have not changed your mind you cant make yours up follow the bible are support capital punishment. Your bible controdicts it self more than any other book followed an eye for an eye but thou shall not murder seems like the bible can't even make its self up...

Using your definition if the majority of a society or its leaders agrees with captial punishment (meaning its legal) then perhaps its not murder? So if its not murder maybe its not a sin??

A majority of are criminals think its okay to kill so perhaps its not murder....No it does not say thou shall not kill unless a majority of the people agree with it

It's as society believes, not what the murders believe; there is many more people than murders.

So murders are not apart of are society?

Aparantly you can't bring up any more good points, again; laws are created based on what the majority of society thinks (either way capital punishment is not against the law). The bottom line is even acording to YOUR definition capital punishment is not murder.

Aparantly you can't bring up any more good points, again; laws are created based on what the majority of society thinks (either way capital punishment is not against the law). The bottom line is even acording to YOUR definition capital punishment is not murder.



Yes I can think of valid points... And no your wrong laws are not based on what society wants it was what are politicians want not you the people. and just because society supports the death penlty justifys it as an okay thing. Also I was making a point saying that murders are apart of society and why is capital punishment okay but just going out and doing it is wrong but truthfully there is no diffrence it is both wrong. Also I did my homework unlike you and I've found reasons why it is cheaper to keep someone in jail... the court cases, getting and finding evidence, preperation up to the death... A don't controdict your self an eye of an eye but thou shall not kill the bible can't even make its mind up can I say again that a majority of the people in the us are christians and by supporting capital punishment you do nothing but controdict your self.

If killing someone cost more than letting them sit in prison for 50 years then Im sure someone would do it for a dollar a pop.. Thats just plain rediculous!

...Aparantly you can't bring up any more good points, again; laws are created based on what the [b:d4a63938ac]majority of society[/b:d4a63938ac] thinks (either way capital punishment is not against the law). The bottom line is even acording to YOUR definition capital punishment is not murder.

Can you share those numbers (about price)???

If killing someone cost more than letting them sit in prison for 50 years then Im sure someone would do it for a dollar a pop.. Thats just plain rediculous!

AGAIN like I said court cases, finding and recieving evidence to prosicute the person and also preperation up until the death cost alot of money... Also lawers, judges, jury all are paid and that is not cheap....

..Aparantly you can't bring up any more good points, again; laws are created based on what the majority of society thinks (either way capital punishment is not against the law). The bottom line is even acording to YOUR definition capital punishment is not murder.

If laws are created by the people and what society thinks then how come we are not voting on the laws only senetors, and congrass are am I correct.... And my definition of capital punishment is murder so stop putting that in your post and also I pretty sure that if your dad killed my mom you would not want your dad put to death and think seriously about that and next time look both ways instead of one and see that just because it does not happen to you than everyone else should die.... And apparently I can bring up good points because I have given more facts and points than you have this entire discussion you just repeat your self and then make me repeat the facts again showing you that your wrong

I have more facts and numbers for you to read and wheep about.

It is sometimes suggested that abolishing capital punishment is unfair to the taxpayer, as though life imprisonment were obviously more expensive than executions. If one takes into account all the relevant costs, the reverse is true. "The death penalty is not now, nor has it ever been, a more economical alternative to life imprisonment."
A murder trial normally takes much longer when the death penalty is at issue than when it is not. Litigation costs - including the time of judges, prosecutors, public defenders, and court reporters, and the high costs of briefs -- are all borne by the taxpayer.

A 1982 study showed that were the death penalty to be reintroduced in New York, the cost of the capital trial alone would be more than double the cost of a life term in prison.

In Maryland, a comparison of capital trial costs with and without the death penalty for the years 1979-1984 concluded that a death penalty case costs "approximately 42 percent more than a case resulting in a non-death sentence." In 1988 and 1989 the Kansas legislature voted against reinstating the death penalty after it was informed that reintroduction would involve a first-year cost of "more than $ 11 million." Florida, with one of the nation's largest death rows, has estimated that the true cost of each execution is approximately $3.2 million, or approximately six times the cost of a life-imprisonment sentence.

The only way to make the death penalty a "better buy" than imprisonment is to weaken due process and curtail appellate review, which are the defendant's (and society's) only protections against the grossest miscarriages of justice. The savings in dollars would be at the cost of justice: In nearly half of the death-penalty cases given review under federal habeas corpus, the conviction is overturned.

Across the country, police are being laid off, prisoners are being released early, the courts are clogged, and crime continues to rise. The economic recession has caused cutbacks in the backbone of the criminal justice system. In Florida, the budget crisis resulted in the early release of 3,000 prisoners. In Texas, prisoners are serving only 20% of their time and rearrests are common. Georgia is laying off 900 correctional personnel and New Jersey has had to dismiss 500 police officers. Yet these same states, and many others like them, are pouring millions of dollars into the death penalty with no resultant reduction in crime.

The exorbitant costs of capital punishment are actually making America less safe because badly needed financial and legal resources are being diverted from effective crime fighting strategies. Before the Los Angeles riots, for example, California had little money for innovations like community policing, but was managing to spend an extra $90 million per year on capital punishment. Texas, with over 300 people on death row, is spending an estimated $2.3 million per case, but its murder rate remains one of the highest in the country.

The death penalty is escaping the decisive cost-benefit analysis to which every other program is being put in times of austerity. Rather than being posed as a single, but costly, alternative in a spectrum of approaches to crime, the death penalty operates at the extremes of political rhetoric. Candidates use the death penalty as a facile solution to crime which allows them to distinguish themselves by the toughness of their position rather than its effectiveness.

The death penalty is much more expensive than its closest alternative--life imprisonment with no parole. Capital trials are longer and more expensive at every step than other murder trials. Pre-trial motions, expert witness investigations, jury selection, and the necessity for two trials--one on guilt and one on sentencing--make capital cases extremely costly, even before the appeals process begins. Guilty pleas are almost unheard of when the punishment is death. In addition, many of these trials result in a life sentence rather than the death penalty, so the state pays the cost of life imprisonment on top of the expensive trial.

The high price of the death penalty is often most keenly felt in those counties responsible for both the prosecution and defense of capital defendants. A single trial can mean near bankruptcy, tax increases, and the laying off of vital personnel. Trials costing a small county $100,000 from unbudgeted funds are common and some officials have even gone to jail in resisting payment.

Nevertheless, politicians from prosecutors to presidents choose symbol over substance in their support of the death penalty. Campaign rhetoric becomes legislative policy with no analysis of whether the expense will produce any good for the people. The death penalty, in short, has been given a free ride. The expansion of the death penalty in America is on a collision course with a shrinking budget for crime prevention. It is time for politicians and the public to give this costly punishment a hard look

Various state governments estimate that a single death penalty case, from the point of arrest to execution, ranges from $1 million to $3 million, and could be as high as $7 million per case. However, cases resulting in life imprisonment average approximately $500,000, including the cost of incarceration.

5 REASONS WHY WE SHOULD ABOLISH THE DEATH PENLATY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) The death penalty is racist.

The 1972 Furman V. Georgia case abolished the death penalty for four years on the grounds that capital punishment was rife with racial disparities. Over twenty five years later, those disparities are as glaring as ever.

African Americans are 12% of the U.S. population, but are 43% of prisoners on death row. Although Blacks constitute 50% of all murder victims, 83% of the victims in death penalty cases are white.
Since 1976 only ten executions involved a white defendant who had killed a Black victim.
In all, only 37 of the over 18,000 executions in this country's history involved a white person being punished for killing a Black person.
A comprehensive Georgia study found that killers of whites are 4.3 times more likely to receive a death sentence than killers of Blacks.
More than 75% of those on federal death row are non-white. Of the 156 federal death penalty prosecutions approved by the Attorney General since 1988, 74% of the defendants were non-white.
2) The death penalty punishes the poor.

"One searches our chronicles in vain for the execution of any member of the affluent strata in this society." - Justice William O. Douglas.

If you can afford good legal representation, you won't end up on death row.
Over 90 percent of defendants charged with capital crimes are indigent and cannot afford to hire an experienced criminal defense attorney to represent them. They are forced to use inexperienced, underpaid court-appointed attorneys.
In most states the pay for court appointed attorneys is so low that lawyers assigned to capital cases will lose $20-$30 an hour if they do an adequate job. In Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi defense attorneys are paid a flat fee of $1,000 -- which translates into about 5 dollars an hour for most lawyers.
In 1996 Clinton cut federal funding to 20 legal resource centers which provided counsel to poor defendants. Now, all of the centers that received this funding have shut down.
Many capital trials last less than a week -- hardly enough time to present a good defense.
3) The death penalty condemns the innocent to die.

Since 1976, more than 82 people have been released from prison after being sentenced to death despite their innocence. In other words, 1 in 7 of those on death row have been freed after being fully exonerated.
The book, In Spite of Innocence, notes that between 1900 and 1992 there have been 416 documented cases of innocent persons who have been convicted and given a death sentence. The authors discovered that in 23 of these cases, the person was executed.
Illinois has released as many from death-row as it has executed since 1976. As a result, an Illinois Supreme Court Justice said, "Despite the courts' efforts to fashion a death penalty scheme that is just..., the system is not working. Innocent people are being sentenced to death... If this is the best our state can do, we have no business sending people to their deaths."
President Clinton has called appeals by death-row prisoners "ridiculous" and "interminable." He signed a law that limits prisoners to a single habeas corpus appeal within one year of conviction. Under this law, many of those released from death row due to innocence since 1976 would be dead. JWB by supporting capital punishment you could become a statistic
4) The death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crime.

An FBI study shows that states which have abolished the death penalty averaged lower murder rates than states which have not.
5) The death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment."

In the decades since Furman 13 people have been executed who were under the age of 18 when they committed the crime for which they were convicted. Seventy more juveniles are currently on death row awaiting execution.
Since Furman 34 mentally retarded inmates have been executed.

I do bring up valid points and view and it blows getting slamed with facts and I show you that I am right again see capital punishment is more expensive there are your numbers you wanted....

Also thecomputerguy you do not care if the mentally retarded are exicuted well maybe this will give you reason to change your mind Even strong death penalty supporters recognize that capital punishment is wrong for people with the mind of a child." Jamie Fellner, Human rights Watch associate counsel, commenting on the scheduled execution of Johnny Penry, a man with the mental age of a 2nd grader. So instead of not caring maybe you should because weather or not you like it the death penalty is a big issue and you should give a crap about it.

Again I have 3 post with valid points and views don't fight a war you can't win....

And I have done my religon homework also as much as I dis-agree with the bible I do agree with one thing and you all being firm believers in the bible thought you might like this

One example is Lactantius (260 to 330 CE) who is primarily known for his books "Introduction to True Religion" and "The Divine Institutes." He wrote in The Divine Institutes, Book 6, Chapter 20:

"When God forbids us to kill, he not only prohibits the violence that is condemned by public laws, but he also forbids the violence that is deemed lawful by men. Thus it is not lawful for a just man to engage in warfare, since his warfare is justice itself. Nor is it [lawful] to accuse anyone of a capital offense. It makes no difference whether you put a man to death by word, or by the sword. It is the act of putting to death itself which is prohibited. Therefore, regarding this precept of God there should be no exception at all. Rather it is always unlawful to put to death a man, whom God willed to be a sacred creature."

A murder is a murder, none the less, or the age.

That is my belief, that a murder is a murder,

Have you ever read "Of Mice and Men" the charcter George is mentally retarded, and he murders a girl on accident. He is shot by his friend because he knows what will happen....

I will change my opinion to Base is on the Case. But Death penalty should be open on any murder case.

But you bring a good point, about the age. A 5 year shot his classmate... that should not get a death penatly option as the kid can barely talk let alone rationalize.

That is my belief, that a murder is a murder

Than I have a question what is the death penlty....

Also JWB waiting for you to respond

I haven't read all the post yet, but from the last couple the Death penalty is justice, not muder:

the death penlty they are killing a human being in its process there fore it is murder... The dictionary's definition of murder is The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

--- ill read and reply again later..

Death Penalty is a protection against murders who are a threat to society.

<<<<Death Penalty is a protection against murders who are a threat to are society>>>>

Well if a convicted murder is kept behind bars the rest of his life how is he threatning society and you did not answer my question how is the death penalty not murder stop trying to go around the question...

The unlawful killing of one human by another

Killing a human is unlawful and sorry to say but humans still are the ones killing the person when the death penalty is used not machines. Also death penalty is justice well when a killer goes out and murders another he is tryings to seek justices on that person so again don't controdict your self. And next time you tell me your a firm beliver in the bible i'm going to laugh... And yes you probably will bring up an eye for an eye but like I said the bible controdicts it self also saying thou shall not kill so by that then you can't tell me your pro-Capital punishment and christanity because no where in the bible does it say it is okay to kill one because they did....

I still nead to read it all.... THE UNLAWFUL killing, if its not against the law, which it isnt, than its not UNLAWFUL!! SO ITS NOT MUDER FOR THE LAST TIME! ITS [b:0daf424f1c]NOT[/b:0daf424f1c] against the law!! --Oh does that mean its still alright (does that have anything to do with it, thats the whole debate so yes it does mean its alright)

[quote:6a39a1eb23="ConfusedYouth"]
And yes you probably will bring up an eye for an eye but like I said the bible controdicts it self also saying thou shall not kill so by that then you can't tell me your pro-Capital punishment and christanity because no where in the bible does it say it is okay to kill one because they did.... [/quote:6a39a1eb23]

It sasy Thy Shall Not Murder.............Please get it correctly.........

I will post this question on a church board if I can find one and see what they say.

I still nead to read it all.... THE UNLAWFUL killing, if its not against the law, which it isnt, than its not UNLAWFUL!! SO ITS NOT MUDER FOR THE LAST TIME! ITS NOT against the law!! --Oh does that mean its still alright (does that have anything to do with it, thats the whole debate so yes it does mean its alright)

I don't see the diffrence between Billy Bob going out and killing someone and the goverment killing someone KILLING IS KILLING no matter who does it there fore it should be unlawful so for the last time killing is killing and should be outlawed no matter what

Also answer my questions you said murder is murder than what do you think the death penalty is? Also like I said keeping somone in jail for life they do not threat society. And I had another question I asked you if your dad killed my mother I'm pretty sure you would not want your father put to death and I said think hard about it before you respond. So instead of trying to bring up new points lets finish the ones that where brought up along time ago instead of trying to move around the ones I have brought up and then we can move on.... And hurry up and read my previous post are they must be hard to read considering I proved you wrong...

THE DEATH penalty is too flawed to fix--and it’s time to end it once and for all. That’s the message that some 600 people--packed into the United Church of Hyde Park in Chicago for a January 31 rally--wanted to send to Illinois lawmakers.

Rev. Jesse Jackson was among the featured speakers. He was joined on the platform by Perry Cobb, Gary Gauger, Anthony Porter, Steve Smith and Darby Tillis--five of the 13 men proven innocent and freed from Illinois death row during the past 14 years. Family members of those still on death row, plus lawyers and activists, spoke out.

The rally, sponsored by the Campaign to End the Death Penalty, marked the two-year anniversary of a moratorium on executions in Illinois. Faced with growing evidence that the death penalty system was "broken," Republican Gov. George Ryan declared the halt on executions and appointed a 14-person panel to study the system.

That commission is about to release its findings. Press reports indicate that the panel will suggest as many as 75 reforms. And according to the reports, the panel voted 8 to 5 in favor of recommending abolition of the death penalty.

But whether this will appear in the final report--and whether politicians pay attention to any of the findings--depends on the strength of the opposition that death penalty opponents build.

As Jackson told the cheering crowd last week, "You couldn’t really fix slavery. You couldn’t modify it. Good slave masters, bad slave masters. Bad slave masters kill you instantly. Good slave masters kill you softly. We had to abolish the slavery system. Let’s abolish the death penalty."

Here, Socialist Worker prints excerpts from speakers at the Chicago rally.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"The system tried to kill me"

GARY GAUGER was convicted and sentenced to death for the 1993 murder of his parents, mainly because of a supposed confession fabricated by police and testimony from a jailhouse snitch. He was only proven innocent and freed because of an investigation by a Northwestern University law professor and his students.

IT’S NOT the system that saved me. The system tried to kill me. It’s people like you that saved me.

A little over two years ago, we went to [the Illinois capitol in] Springfield to testify before a House subcommittee, just on the prospect of discussing a moratorium on the death penalty. Fourteen panel members heard testimony--moving testimony from people, like me, who were exonerated.

After a whole day, we couldn’t sway one vote. We were so discouraged. Then, four days later, Governor Ryan declared a moratorium on the death penalty. People are watching.

Police officers perjured themselves 150 times during my trial. Perjury in Illinois is punishable by five years in prison. But all of the officers got promoted. The prosecutor in my case is running for judge today.

That’s the system. The system can’t be fixed. The politicians aren’t interested in justice. It takes grassroots movements like this to bring about change.

"Help me to destroy this monster"

GRICELDA CEJA is the mother of Raul Ceja, an innocent man who was the first person sentenced to death during Ryan’s moratorium.

ON THE second anniversary of the moratorium, it’s more important than ever to get out truth about the death penalty. We need everyone to know what this death penalty system is all about. It’s racist, it’s unfair, it kills the innocent and it’s cruel and unjust.

Whenever we hear politicians talk about the death penalty, we also hear their ideas on how to fix it. What is it that they want to fix and for what purpose? To kill in a quicker and more efficient manner or to kill in greater numbers?

Last year, I came here to ask for your help to change this system, not only for my son, but for all the other men who sit on death row.

I’m back, and I’m asking for your help again. But this time, I’m asking you to help me destroy this monster.

"We’re going to send a message"

ALICE KIM is a national organizer for the Campaign to End the Death Penalty.

TWO YEARS ago today, abolitionists struck a blow against the machinery of death. We exposed a broken system and won a moratorium in Illinois. This sent shock waves across the country and put the issue of the death penalty into the national spotlight.

Two years later, it has become overwhelmingly clear that the death penalty system is still broken. Ninety-nine people have been freed from death rows across the country, and we know without a doubt that there are more innocent people on death row today.

For two years in a row, executions have declined nationally. At least 61 local governments have passed resolutions supporting moratoriums on executions. We’ve come a long way. But make no mistake--we have a fight on our hands.

We have the Texecutioner who stole the White House running the country. This man oversaw more than 150 executions, refused to sign a bill to ban executions of the mentally retarded and allowed at least one innocent man, Gary Graham, to be executed. But that wasn’t enough for Bush, and he became the first president since the 1960s to execute someone.

Now Bush claims to be fighting a worldwide war against terrorism. I say that he exploited the tragedy of 9/11 to declare all-out war on all of us. In order to squelch dissent, he’s making an unprecedented attack on our civil liberties. And if Bush presides over stark injustices at home, we can be sure he’s not pursuing justice abroad.

There are those who want to bring back the death penalty in Illinois. All of the gubernatorial candidates, Democrats included, support the death penalty. They want a kinder, gentler death penalty, but we know there’s no such thing. As Illinois death row inmate Stanley Howard put it, "Don’t be bamboozled by their cosmetic solutions. You can’t put a Band-Aid on the death penalty’s gaping wounds."

We know that the death penalty has nothing to do with justice--it’s a tool used by politicians to further their careers. Tough on crime? Let’s call it what it really is--a war on Black people and a war on the poor. We’ve got two sets of laws in this country--one for the rich and one for the poor and most vulnerable in society.

The death penalty is on trial right now, and we have to tip the balance in our favor. Just as the Illinois moratorium propelled our movement forward, when we win abolition in Illinois, we will send a message to the entire country that abolition is the only way to go.

Justice for the Death Row 10!

THE DEATH Row 10 are fighting for justice from behind the bars of Illinois death row. They are a group of men who were tortured by Chicago cops determined to extract confessions.

All of the Death Row 10 are African American--further proof of the racism that infects the death penalty system. "It’s a fact that you’re more likely to get the death penalty if the victim is white and if you are Black, Latino of a person of color," Tim Lohraff, lawyer for Nathson Fields and Death Row 10 member Aaron Patterson, told the January 31 rally.

"We’re not talking about innocence now. We’re talking about a fundamental sense of justice. We’re talking about not valuing the victim’s life because of race. We can’t have the death penalty at all for this reason alone."

The stories of the Death Row 10 expose the staggering brutality of the criminal justice system. But these prisoners have become fighters--who organized themselves within prison walls to challenge the death penalty.

Activists on the outside are demanding that Cook County State’s Attorney ---- Devine grant new trials. The Death Row 10 deserve justice --now!

And next time you support the death penalty think about all the innocent people your killing... killers!

[quote:12d5a9482c]We know that the death penalty has nothing to do with justice--it’s a tool used by politicians to further their careers. Tough on crime? Let’s call it what it really is--a war on Black people and a war on the poor. We’ve got two sets of laws in this country--one for the rich and one for the poor and most vulnerable in society.
[/quote:12d5a9482c]

thats so much bull ----, did you read the statistics?

The bottom line is if you kill someone I love you deserve to die; and if someone I love kills someone you love they deserve to die, even though I wouldn't want them to and would fight for them using your crazy facts, fix flaws if you want to; but if you dont want to die dont ----ing kill anyone

I don't kill anyone are you an idiot do you read statistics you know how many innocent people go to death row every year maybe you should also read the racial statistics also and you never answer my questiosn stop going around the point are do you have nothing to prove!

ALSO YOUR VERY OWN FBI AND COLLEGES AROUND THE UNITED STATES HAVE DONE PROVEN STUDIES TO SHOW THAT THE SYSTEM IS RACIST SO READ THE FACTS NEXT TIME AND THEN ARGUE A POINT!

I just would also like to point out...

The Bible clearly states that the goverment has the right to serve justice. Now whether we kill a guilty or innocent man is on the jurors mind, concience.

The Bible had death penalties. God said that goverments of man will have death penalties...

I just suggest that you might want to worry about changing the future such as the bill getting ready to pass banning your freedom of speech....I mean you can change that, and that will matter to you.

Again I quote numbers, not opinions from a idiot
[quote:fb60a5abd3]from http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html

C. RACE, SENTENCING AND THE DEATH PENALTY

1) The most vile strategy of death penalty opponents is their use of propaganda to nurture hatreds and mistrust between race and class. Bryan Stevenson, a well known opposition spokesman and attorney with Equal Justice Initiative (Montgomery, Al.), claims that the death penalty reflects the middle class’ desire to strike out at the poor and racial minorities ("A Matter of Life and Death", Christianity Today, 8/14/95). Sister Helen Prejean (Dead Man Walking) joins this hideous chorus, proclaiming that "(m)iddle-class and upper middle-class white people...are so much for the death penalty (to) ‘Keep those dangerous people (the poor and minorities) in their place.’ " ("Opposing the Death Penalty", AMERICA, 11/9/96. pg.12.) Clearly, these statements reveal only their prejudice. Prejean continues "It didn’t take long to see that for poor people, especially poor black people, there was a greased track to prison and death row." (The Progressive, 1/96, p. 32(4) 60,1). Is Sister Prejean saying that poor minorities are incapable of stopping themselves from committing capital murder!? Not only are Sister Prejean’s statements false, they are also grossly insulting to the poor and to minorities. Over 99% of all persons, including poor minorities, restrain themselves from committing capital murder. And there is, of course, no excuse for anyone that commits capital murder. Stevenson and Prejean do hereby reflect either their unbelievable ignorance or their willful and foul deception. Based on their active involvement in the death penalty debate, both Stevenson and Prejean should (must?) be aware that (1) In the most extensive study of the economics of death row inmates, it was shown that, while 74% of Georgia murderers were poor, only 38% of those on Georgia’s death row were poor (C.13).; (2) there is no consensus in statistical analysis which proves that wealthy capital murders are less likely to be executed than their poorer ilk. In fact, statistics indicate that wealthy capital murderers may be more likely to be executed. (C.13); [b:fb60a5abd3](3) the majority of those on death row are white (NAACP LDF, 1996); (4) the majority of those executed are white (C.2); (5) since 1929, white murderers have been more likely to have been executed than black murderers (C.10); (6) "...white murderers, no matter who they kill, are more likely to get the death penalty than black murderers (11.1% to 7.3%). Furthermore, whites who kill whites are slightly more likely to be on death row than blacks who kill whites. Finally, whites who kill blacks are slightly more likely to be on death row than blacks who kill whites." (Jared Taylor, Paved With Good Intentions, 40-41,Carroll & Graf Pub.,1992; (7) whites are executed 15 months quicker than blacks ("Capital Punishment, 1995", BJS 1996); (8) Whites are executed at rates nearly 50% above their involvement in murder. Blacks are executed at rates 20% below their involvement in murder. (C.2); and finally, (9) Murderers are put to death, not based on the race or economic status of the victim or the murderer, but based upon death penalty statutes, the aggravated nature of and all specific circumstances of the crime, the criminal background of the murderer, and the other specific factors mandated by Supreme Court decisions.[/b:fb60a5abd3] [i:fb60a5abd3]Since 1973, there is absolutely no credible evidence to support any other conclusion. Despicably, opponents cry "RACISM!" to further their agenda, knowing, full well, that such claims are false. [/i:fb60a5abd3][/quote:fb60a5abd3]

FOR THE LAST TIME MURDER IS THE UNLAWFUL killing of someone so since its not unlawful (THE LAW COULD CARE LESS WHAT YOU THINK) its not murder; AM I CORRECT?? YES. So the death penalty is not murder, i thought we came to that agreement long ago.

[quote:a854b08f3f]THE DEATH penalty is too flawed to fix--and it’s time to end it once and for all. That’s the message that some 600 people--packed into the United Church of Hyde Park in Chicago for a January 31 rally--wanted to send to Illinois lawmakers. [/quote:a854b08f3f]
-wow 600 people

What are you really protecting?? The murders! Do you think it's ok to kill people? Do you have to worry about getting executed? ANyone in there right mind will think about that before they murder someone. The bottom bottom line is you may find crappy excuses to use, but why not argue the cases for the people who get the death penalty? No, Murders who get the death penalty have tons of evidence proving there guilt; you argue the punishment because people hear your flawed facts. But when jurors (random people from our society) hear a case they decide; thats why this is so much bull

No what is bull is you not excepting the facts. Shows how closes minded and ignorant or society really is I dont haft to worry I could be convicted for a crime I did not do why because I was in the wrong spot at the wrong time or the have evidence I was at the crime scene hours before it took place yet my dna is still there so yes I worry. My lame excuses guess why buddy except the facts sorry facts are facts some people must have a hard time understanding them... Your own FBI that you so very trust has ran many studies and shown everything I've brought up is true are you going to argue with the justice system you so dearly trust... Also murdering killing or whatever you want to call it IS NOT OKAY that is why I dont support the death penalty is that really that hard to take in and understand.... Also computerguy I better start worring about the future the death penalty is the future and will still be used and if they pass the admendment I will still voice my opinion stronger and harder than ever.

FACTS ARE FACTS YOU ARE JUST SO IGNORANT AND CLOSED MINDED THAT YOU HAFT TO BE THE RIGHT ONE ARE IT IS WRONG!ARGUE WITH THE FBI I DONT THINK SO ALL YOUR SOURCES ARE JUST RIGHT WING ----S WHO SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY!

[quote:d4d817dd7c]
[b]
FACTS ARE FACTS YOU ARE JUST SO IGNORANT AND CLOSED MINDED THAT YOU HAFT TO BE THE RIGHT ONE ARE IT IS WRONG!ARGUE WITH THE FBI I DONT THINK SO ALL YOUR SOURCES ARE JUST RIGHT WING ----S WHO SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY! [/quote:d4d817dd7c]

Where are the facts? Looks like your not providing any, just lame opinions with nothing to back it up. Why are the facts from book after book of mine incorrect, yet "THE FBI SAID SO" which I haven't seen a single quote, statistic, etc from so accurate? A monkey could bull----ed a better response than you did.

Lets have some more REAL FACTS (not opinions):

Heres some people that could have been saved if the death penalty would have been there punishment rather than "100 years" or "life":

[quote:d4d817dd7c]
[i:d4d817dd7c]
Vol. 6, No. 17
August 30, 1990 More on Capital Punishment
http://thenewamerican.com/focus/cap_punishment/vo06no17_murders.htm
[/i:d4d817dd7c]

Murders That Could Have Been
Averted By Capital Punishment

• Some 80 years ago, Charles Fitzgerald killed a deputy sheriff and was given a 100-year prison sentence as a result. He was released after serving just 11 years, and in 1926 murdered a California policeman. He was given "life" for that killing, but was paroled in 1971.

• In 1931, "Gypsy" Bob Harper, who had been convicted of murder, escaped from a Michigan prison and killed two persons. After being recaptured, he then killed the prison warden and his deputy.

• In 1936, former FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover reported the case of a Florida prisoner who committed two murders, received clemency for each, and then murdered twice more. On March 17, 1971 Hoover told a congressional subcommittee that 19 of the killers responsible for the murder of policemen during the 1960s had been previously convicted of murder.

• In 1951, Joseph Taborsky was sentenced to death in Connecticut for murder, but was freed when the courts ruled that the chief witness against him (his brother) had been mentally incompetent to testify. In 1957, Taborsky was found guilty for another murder, for which he was electrocuted in May 1960. Before his execution, he confessed to the 1951 murder.

• In 1952, Allen Pruitt was arrested for the knife slaying of a newsstand operator and sentenced to life in prison. In 1965, he was charged with fatally stabbing a prison doctor and an assistant prison superintendent, but was found not guilty by reason of insanity. In 1968, his 1952 conviction was overturned on a technicality by the Virginia Supreme Court. He was re-tried, again found guilty, but given a 20-year sentence instead of life. Since he had already served 18 years, and had some time off for "good behavior," he was released. On December 31, 1971 he was arrested and charged in the murder of two men in Spartanburg, South Carolina.

• In 1957, Richard Biegenwald murdered a store owner during a robbery in New Jersey. He was convicted, but given a life sentence rather than death. After serving 17 years, he was paroled. He violated his parole, was returned to prison, but was again paroled in 1980, after which he shot and killed an 18-year-old Asbury Park, New Jersey girl. He also killed three other 17-year-old New Jersey girls and a 34-year-old man.

• A man convicted of murder in Oklahoma pleaded with the judge and jury to impose the death sentence, but was given life instead. He later killed a fellow inmate and was executed for the second killing in 1966.

• In 1972, Arthur James Julius was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison. In 1978, he was given a brief leave from prison, during which he raped and murdered a cousin. He was sentenced to death for that crime and was executed on November 17, 1989.

• In 1976, Jimmy Lee Gray (who was free on parole from an Arizona conviction for killing a 16-year-old high school girl) kidnapped, sodomized, and suffocated a three-year-old Mississippi girl. He was executed for that second killing on September 2, 1983.

• Also in 1976, Timothy Charles Palmes was on probation for an earlier manslaughter conviction when he and two accomplices robbed and brutally murdered a Florida furniture store owner. Palmes was executed for the killing on November 8, 1984. An accomplice, Ronald Straight, was executed on May 20, 1986. (The other accomplice, a woman, was granted immunity for testifying for the prosecution.)

• In 1978, Wayne Robert Felde, while being taken to jail in handcuffs, pulled a gun hidden in his pants and killed a policeman. At the time, he was a fugitive from a work release program in Maryland, where he had been convicted of manslaughter.

• In 1979, Donald Dillbeck was convicted and sentenced to 25 years in prison for murdering a Florida sheriffs deputy. In 1983, he tried to escape. In January of this year he was transferred to a minimum-security facility. On June 22nd, he walked away from a ten-inmate crew catering a school banquet. Two days later, he was arrested and charged with stabbing a woman to death at a Tallahassee shopping mall.

• In 1981, author Norman Mailer and many other New York literati embraced convicted killer Jack Henry Abbott (who had murdered a fellow prison inmate) and succeeded in having him released early from a Utah prison. On July 18, 1981 (six-weeks after his release), Abbott stabbed actor Richard Adan to death in New York. He was convicted of manslaughter and received a 15-year-to-life sentence. Mrs. Adan sued Abbott for her husband's wrongful death and her pain and suffering. On June 15, 1990, a jury awarded her nearly .6 million.

• On October 22, 1983 at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, two prison guards were murdered in two separate instances by inmates who were both serving life terms for previously murdering inmates. On November 9, 1983 Associate U.S. Attorney General D. Lowell Jensen told a Senate subcommittee that it is impossible to punish or even deter such prison murders because, without a death sentence, a violent life-termer has free rein "to continue to murder as opportunity and his perverse motives dictate."

• On December 7, 1984 Benny Lee Chaffin kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 9-year-old Springfield, Oregon girl. He had been convicted of murder once before in Texas, but not executed. Incredibly, the same jury that convicted him for killing the young girl refused to sentence him to death because two of the 12 jurors said they could not determine whether or not he would be a future threat to society!

• Thomas Eugene Creech, who had been convicted of three murders and had claimed a role in more than 40 killings in 13 states as a paid killer for a motorcycle gang, killed a fellow prison inmate in 1981 and was sentenced to death. In 1986 his execution was stayed by a federal judge and has yet to be carried out.

• When he was 14, Dalton Prejean killed a taxi driver. When he was 17, he gunned down a state trooper in Lafayette, Louisiana. Despite protests from the American Civil Liberties Union and other abolitionist groups, Prejean was executed for the second murder on May 18, 1990.
[/quote:d4d817dd7c]

ok, so i kno this has nothing to do w/the topic...but please, if ur gonna go around calling other ppl idiots and closed minded, at least learn to spell. please.
the Bible does not contradict itself. there are things that we cannot understand bc it was written/inspired by an infinite God, and we are finite beings. there is a huge difference between killing and murdering. "KILL merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner <killed in an accident>. MURDER specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility <convicted of murdering a rival>." as stated by Merriam Webster.
personally i support the death penalty; however, i believe it is a matter of conviction and no matter how long ppl discuss/argue/debate about it, i'm not sure we'll ever convince anyone else. especially the way things r goin now. basically from what i can tell this thread has been reduced to an "i'm right, ur wrong. i'm smart, ur an idiot" type of discussion. its kinda immature, i must tell u. leaving these long quote/unquote statistics that r completely irrelevant and all together boring, will get u nowhere. thank u

NO NO NO YOUR WRONG IVE SUPPORTED MORE FACTS AND POINTS THAN YOU HAVE THE ENTIRE POST YOU SAID YOUR SELF "I HAVE NOT GOT AROUND TO READING IT ALL" AND YOU PROBABLY DID NOT BOTHER SO ---- YOU AND YOUR DEATH PENALTY IF YOU SUPPORT IT SO WELL GIVE ME OPINIONS OF PEOPLE WHO LOOK AT IT BOTH WAYS NOT JUST ONE NORROW MINDED WRITER YOU GET THIS FROM I GOT MY SOURCES FROM PEOPLE WHO LOOK BOTH WAYS AT THE DEATH PENALTY COLLEGES AND FEDERAL AGENTCYS SO UNTIL YOU DO SO DONT VOICE ANYTHING!

I tired of dealing with norrow minded ignornat people who will support death in all corners. I tired of talking about this subject and it being 2 verse one Im tired of typing FACTS that prove the death penalty wrong. I am just sick of this whole subject your obviously not going to open your eyes and see that the goverment gets away with murder all the time. Im sick of talking about this with people who support are justice system way to much. Instead of fight with a few regular high school people I've decided to write congrass so maybe I can make a change allow innocent people to live give life to all and give murders a second chnance like no one has ever given you.... So I am done you can keep -----ing are doing whatever it is but im finished with this subject!

First off vba-- whatever I think quoting facts is very important, and I encourage confusedyouth to do so, because I want to see numbers; Although I would have to agree as far as quoting OPINIONS of other people, I'm looking for facts. What do you want to see?

Confused youth the way you're typing makes me wonder if you're about to cry!! :) .. Chill out :D

Again you just replied with but THE FBI SAID SO thing,, where exactly did they say this? Anyways that's stupid.

Sorry you ran out of opinon/lies whatever..

Heres a few interesting thoughts to think about...

[quote:61c49b18fd]The death penalty is a warning, just like a lighthouse throwing its beams out to sea. We hear about shipwrecks, but we do not hear about the ships the lighthouse guides safely on their way. We do not have proof of the number of ships it saves, but we do not tear the lighthouse down. - poet Hyman Barshay[/quote:61c49b18fd]

[quote:61c49b18fd]It is often said that murderers are the criminals least likely to repeat their crimes.
Does that statistic matter if you become the victim of one who bucks the trend?[/quote:61c49b18fd]

[quote:3dd54452be]Since 1901, twenty-three Federal correctional workers
have been killed by inmates while in the line of duty.[/quote:3dd54452be] The life of one correctional worker who commited no crime should be enough grounds to eliminate all previous offenders.

I won't insult anyone or anything, I just wanted to say...

If you can't win a argument with a few regular highschoolers, how would you win a argument with someone with years and years of more education?

Like I said I am done with this and about to cry no do I have fill strong in what I beleave in yes and like vball the one good thing she said is that this is going no where so leave me out of this discussion because it proves nothing I've been an active member in abolishing the death penalty for a year now so vball if your going to jump in the middle of a discussion which you had nothing to do with than don't be so judgemental.... Thanks and don't mention me in another one of your post I'm sick of this petty stupid back and forth fighting if you want to have a real logical discussion you can talk to me on aim at safetonight645. But don't bother if all your going to do is try to get me worked up because I will just block you.

It seems to me you're getting very upset for no reason.. Just remember we all have our own opinions and as much as you believe in your idea someone may believe in theirs just as much. Remeber that most the time its nothing personal.

Like I said this is stupid pointless and dumb we are just repeating facts over and over and trying to prove each other wrong I'm done I'm moving on to a new topic that maybe we can voice are opinions instead of trying to force them upon each other like we have done 70 times during this thread it's obvious that we are just trying change each others opinion instead of telling each other are opinions like I said if you want to talk about some thing that is mature and intellegent than talk to be at safeTonight645. And If you have this idea that I'm pissed off it is not true I'm actully just tired of talking about this to people who don't really agree with me. I don't get upset nor angry when having a discussion.