a little simplified perhaps, but........


Muslim outrage huh?_ OK ... let's do a little historical review._ Just some lowlights:
· __ Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia._ A Christian school._ No Muslim outrage.
· __ Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India._ Kills six._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia._ Muslims shoot children in the back._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Let's go way back._ Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses._ Over 700 are injured._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Muslims murder innocent Australian and other vacationers in Bali._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic and anti-Christian cartoons._ No Muslim outrage

· __ Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world._ No Muslim outrage.

· __ Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge._ No Muslim outrage.


· __ Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed._ Muslims are outraged.

Dead children._ Dead tourists._ Dead teachers._ Dead doctors and nurses._ Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.


Come on, is this really about cartoons?_ They're rampaging and burning flags._ They're looking for Europeans to kidnap._ They're_ threatening innkeepers and generally raising holy Muslim hell not because of any outrage over a cartoon._ They're outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihadist culture to be outraged._ You don't really need a reason._ You just need an excuse._ Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler's fan.


I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims._ When, though, do they become outraged?_ When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule?_ Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims_in a New York Times article three years ago._


"As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"__
Indeed._ Why not?_

I read this in an email a friend sent to me. Thought this would make for some good conversation.

All those things are ok because they have been approved by Allah for Jihad.

What is not approved is making images of Allah. You must understand the difference in attacking humans and Gods.

What puzzles people in the West is that when Islamic suicide bombers attack a Muslim mosque and kill Islamic women and children, there's no outrage in the rest of the Islamic world — no protests then. But when cartoons are published, it just becomes another jihad against the United States and against Western nations.

“Cartoons are published against the Prophet and when they attack mosques this can't be compared,” Musharraf explains. “However, I'm not saying that that should not be condemned, but as far as publishing the cartoons, now this we call blasphemy.”


Musharraf explains (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11372894/from/RS.1)

Good post havok - you are 100% right. When they start being outraged at their own crimes - I'll stop laughing at their outrage at the days of the week that have the letter Y in it.

Sorry people who use the excuse of religion to pose their beliefs on others. No where in Islam are these actions justified.

I think it's time using "them" or "muslims" as if all these people were brainwashed zombis acting ant thinking the same way.
There are people who commit horrible things in the name of Islam, sure.
But there are many, many different people who share the muslim religion and just want to leave peacefully. Many people who are offended just as we are when they see terrorist names perpertrated in the name of Allah. Many people who publicly disagree and condemn such acts. Many people who fight bravely in their countries for more freedom. And don't forget that most victims of radical Islam are muslims.

BTWwelcome Innocent Sweety it's nice to read you again !

I agree with astrapol.

Thanks for the welcome back btw :) it's nice to be back!

Hi Innocent Sweety - welcome back, it'll be interesting to hear your perspective. You obviously are an educated Muslim, so you are in the group that doesn't agree with these riots. I think education is the issue, not religion. Being offended by something doesn't lead to violence unless there is a lack of education & buy-in to society.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Sorry people who use the excuse of religion to pose their beliefs on others. No where in Islam are these actions justified.

These people from all over the world that riot and burn and stone churches are all Mulsims and none of them read the Danish newspaper. They go out to riot after leaving the Mosque where they were fired up by the Imams.

"No where in Islam are the actions jutified", then why is it a world wide action by only muslims reacting to a cartoon. Innocent sweety can't make it all go away with a kiss and a kind word.

I know most Muslims are fine people but Islam itself seems to be a disease that spreads around the world the the people infected with it become puppets that can be made to dance in the streets and kill and burn on command. When I see how they act, I pray that the mental disease can be contained. The Imams are calling for any muslim who sees the cartoonist to kill him.

Originally posted by DrewM
Hi Innocent Sweety - welcome back, it'll be interesting to hear your perspective. You obviously are an educated Muslim, so you are in the group that doesn't agree with these riots. I think education is the issue, not religion. Being offended by something doesn't lead to violence unless there is a lack of education & buy-in to society.

Education is one thing, but maybe not the main factor. There are many reasons why some muslims may feel badly about this issue, some are wrong, other are a question of personal belief, other are justified.

I fully agree that education is a very important matter. But when confronted to the real problems of how eastern and western values may coexist of clash, many educated people from both sides seem to choose confrontation against peace.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Sorry people who use the excuse of religion to pose their beliefs on others. No where in Islam are these actions justified.

Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi, prayer leader at the historic Mohabat Khan mosque in the northwestern city of Peshawar, announced the mosque and the Jamia Ashrafia religious school he leads would give a 1.5 million rupee reward and a car for killing the cartoonist of the prophet pictures that appeared first in a Danish newspaper in September.

He also said a local jewelers' association would give one million dollars. No representative of the association was available to confirm it had made the offer.

"Whoever has done this despicable and shameful act, he has challenged the honor of Muslims. Whoever will kill this cursed man, he will get one million dollars from the association of the jewelers' bazaar, one million rupees from Masjid Mohabat Khan and 500,000 rupees and a car from Jamia Ashrafia as a reward," Qureshi said.

"This is a unanimous decision by all imams (prayer leaders) of Islam that whoever insults the prophet deserves to be killed and whoever will take this insulting man to his end, will get this prize," Qureshi said.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3217591,00.html

I think any religion that teaches it is okay to kill someone just because this person has insulted the diety, the prophet, or the scripture, is wrong. It does not matter whether Allah exists, because even if it does, I would treat this diety as evil. I do not know if the same is taught in Christianity, but if it is, I think the same way.

Is it okay to kill someone who insults the president of your country? I do not think so. Well, in a theocracy, the diety is like the president's president. It is not okay to kill someone who insults your diety. Never okay.

I believe Buddhism and Taoism do not teach that it is okay to kill anyone for any reason. For that, validity aside, I think it makes their followers better people.

Originally posted by old-reb I know most Muslims are fine people but Islam itself seems to be a disease that spreads around the world the the people infected with it become puppets that can be made to dance in the streets and kill and burn on command. When I see how they act, I pray that the mental disease can be contained. The Imams are calling for any muslim who sees the cartoonist to kill him.
Since we don't strike back with a jihad, how about a good old fashioned huntin' licence..
you know open season, out in the open the way they like it?
(my twisted sense of sarcasm)

This is part of a much larger problem.
Radical religious factions that see themselves as righteous in their beliefs. Condoning any action no matter how violent and spilling the blood of innocents. Muslims taking hostages and the beheadings is as perverse as so-called Christians bombing an abortion clinic.
The acts of radicals has to be a tough pill to swallow for the non violent and truly religious.
Watching these twisted freaks undermine all that is good within their beliefs and way of life.
One can only hope that calmer heads will prevail and the murderous element will be brought to justice and held accountable.:hitout:

http://opinionsandreasons.blogspot.com/

I wonder how many of these ravaging thugs has actually seen the cartoons. Most of them dont have internet access, their newspapers are not allowed to print the cartoons, and those who do are closed down and their editors arrested. So they riot because someone, probably to a great extend their imams, told them something, but what? I wonder what lies are being told on the streets about the cartoons and Denmark in generel - probably not nice things. Makes me sick to my stomach!

And about the bountys: why doesnt the parkistani government arrest these people? Is it legal in Parkistan to put a price on someones head? Any civilized society would not allow this.

Originally posted by elp
And about the bountys: why doesnt the parkistani government arrest these people? Is it legal in Parkistan to put a price on someones head? Any civilized society would not allow this.

:confused: I don't know Pakistani law but you have to wonder who is in control or if they monitor these riots
and take names and pictures to follow up later with the worst of the bunch.

I do think historically Pakistan leaders are 'slack' where justice is concerned.
I still wonder why there was no punishment of A.Q.Khan for selling nuclear technology to Iran, Libya & North Korea..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Qadeer_Khan

National hero my ass..
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/pakistan/2004/pakistan-040205-irna05.htm

Selling nuke materials and technology for money.
http://opinionsandreasons.blogspot.com/2004_10_01_opinionsandreasons_archive.html

DrewM, astrapol said what was on my mind. (btw, good post astrapol)

ahhhh old-reb, i missed our little debates, how've u been?
Truth be told, most of the people who commit such extreme acts aren't actually Muslims, only people who are so against the religion that they would do anything to make it have a bad name by commiting something and sticking it to Islam. Even if they were Muslims, what they did isn't right. old-reb you're just quoting what one Imam said, our religion asks us to think with logic in such situations, and not to take one Imam's word. You don't follow an Imam, you follow God; and God asked you to use your brain. Any person with the slightest intelligence would see that this is just wrong, and that what it's doing is not benefiting them but doing the exact opposite. Sadly, many people don't realize this and go for violence.

Dio Seijuro, insulting is never a wise choice is it. Criticism is fine, but you can see why insulting a person's complete belief system could anger them can't you now.

Innocent Sweety - your view is obviously rational and sensible. Why do you think that your view (which I am sure is held by the vast majority of muslims) gets lost amongst the radical view that we see day after day in our media? It seems only the radicals have a loud voice.

The cartoon incident I think has really made a lot of people in the west write off muslims as crazy and unreasonable people that can never be reasoned with.

Hello Innocent,

I did enjoy our chats when the world was less polarized.

Didn't you tell me that when you went to the Mosque that the women and men were in seperate rooms, with seperate speakers and you even got to speak a few times yourself.

Innocent Sweety:

Insulting others' religion is of course not a good thing. I don't do it. However, I was talking about how terrible that some religions actually teache its followers that it's okay to kill non-believers who insulted them. (not only okay, but in some cases "must") Such a religion makes its followers worse people than if they have never been exposed to the religion.

Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi has offered a million dollars and a new car to anyone who kills one of the cartoonists. I think some group should offer a like reward for anyone who kills Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi if any cartoonist is so much as injured.

People just sit back and allow these Fatwahs and death sentences to be placed on people with no reaction from the rest of the world. Salman Rushdie still has a death sentence on his head because of his book, Satanic Verses.

If people like Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi feel so strongly about the issue that they want the cartoonists killed they should also feel strongly enough to give their own lives for the cause.

Originally posted by Frogger
Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi has offered a million dollars and a new car to anyone who kills one of the cartoonists. I think some group should offer a like reward for anyone who kills Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi if any cartoonist is so much as injured.

People just sit back and allow these Fatwahs and death sentences to be placed on people with no reaction from the rest of the world. Salman Rushdie still has a death sentence on his head because of his book, Satanic Verses.

If people like Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi feel so strongly about the issue that they want the cartoonists killed they should also feel strongly enough to give their own lives for the cause.

Rumour has it that they have already dispatched a suicide bomber.
To get through security he is going to hide the bomb in his turban.

DrewM, why else? The media likes to show Muslims as radicals, it's being controlled by America where even during the Afghan war they ordered Al Jazeera not to show the dead bodies of the Afghani's to be shown because they didn't want their country to be seen as barbaric. No, all other people are barbaric that's why we have the right to bomb them up and take their natural resources (oil, natural gas and etc.)

old-reb, oh I never actually spoke I was just an Imam a few times, you know I'd stand at the front of the room and they'd all pray with me leading the prayer, that was it. Anyone can do it. About the mosque and seperate rooms and etc. I don't recall mentioning that.

Dio Seijuro, you believe in turning the other cheek right....

Frogger what do you suggest we do about such fatwa's? I hear about the funniest fatwa's coming from the Azhar lots of times. For example, it's sinful to be naked while having sexual intercourse, the couple should cover themselves up with a blanket or something and not look at each other during the act. This is such a case where you should use logic, God asked us to think with our brains and not follow blindly. Sadly, many people have become blinded.

Rumour has it that they have already dispatched a suicide bomber.
To get through security he is going to hide the bomb in his turban.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Dio Seijuro, you believe in turning the other cheek right....

I do not.

In retaliation of an insult, you may turn the other cheek, insult the person back, give them a hard time, walk away, perhaps you will be so angry as to hurt them...which would be illegal. But kill...that's too much. And again I emphasize that what disturbs me is that in the case of Islam, to kill this insulting person seems not must be a result of anger of the insulted, but rather is something specified in the teachings.

Anyway, I am getting this information from other posters here, so I don't know if it is true. But you should know. Is this true to your knowledge that the Muslim teaching says to kill whoever insults Allah? What other sort of people does the teaching say you should kill?

Dio let me get you a good list of where it's fine to kill... I can only remember self defense and in war. Oh maybe also for some sinful acts, to be done by judges only of course. Well, let me take a look around and I'll get back at that.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety

old-reb, oh I never actually spoke I was just an Imam a few times, you know I'd stand at the front of the room and they'd all pray with me leading the prayer, that was it. Anyone can do it. About the mosque and seperate rooms and etc. I don't recall mentioning that.


Ok I mis-understood you, you were in seperate places but in the same room.

A mosque is merely a place where you pray in. You don't wait in line or anything. There are seperate places for men and women. You enter through a door, and there's a place for you to cleanse yourself first if not already cleansed. You then enter the mosque and start praying.
If there were a group of people, then a "jama'a" prayer is done. Where one person, preferably the most knowladgeable in Islam (really, it could be anyone, I've done it many times) leads the group. The person, if a man, stands in front of the men. If a woman, then in the middle of the front row. Or if the men were in front of the women, then the women follow their lead. The lines are organized as follows:
Men
Young Men or Boys
Women
Children

http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7729&highlight=oldreb

Yes that is right.

Dio I've searched and searched to get you information from a reputable source but I couldn't find any. Anyway, from what I know, it is in these cases only that it is not sinful to kill someone:
- Self-defense
- War
- Punishment for a crime (only proper judges can have a say in this and it's done by the state)

When it comes to insulting Allah it is to my knowledge that Allah told Muslims that they should express anger when someone insults Him.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
[B][color=firebrick]DrewM, why else? The media likes to show Muslims as radicals, it's being controlled by America where even during the Afghan war they ordered Al Jazeera not to show the dead bodies of the Afghani's to be shown because they didn't want their country to be seen as barbaric. No, all other people are barbaric that's why we have the right to bomb them up and take their natural resources (oil, natural gas and etc.) [/b/

Al Jazeera does not listen to orders from America that's for certain. Tell me one single drop of oil that has been taken from the middle east? This is a total myth. Without Oil the countries in the middle east would be poorer than Africa. America buys oil from the middle east at market prices, it doesn't take it. Further more, the market price is set mainly by the cartel OPEC.

War is barbaric by it's very nature, but that doesn't make America barbaric. The US has never intentionally targeted innocent civilians, in fact the US goes out of its way to avoid civilian deaths in a war situation. Billions of $ are spent on weapons that reduce civilian casualties when weapons have to be used. Weapons had to be used in Afghanistan.

What is barbaric is taking a woman hostage & then parading her on TV and threating to kill her. Beheading somebody & capturing it on video - that is barbaric. The Taliban in Afghanistan were barbaric & this was a "pure" muslim state. It's very unfortuanate, because it's probably not true for most muslims - but typically people in the west are fed up with muslims & their self sanctimony, their idea that the rules of islam apply to everybody on earth & their blind eye to their own barbaric nature. The lastest cartoons issue has been the last straw for many people & they have written off muslims as uneducated, irrational & barbaric people. This is certainly a shame because I am sure that the vast majority of muslims are decent, caring rational people.

Originally posted by DrewM
The Taliban in Afghanistan were barbaric & this was a "pure" muslim state.

I agree with all your post but I expecially like this.

Wow nice post if I say so myself.

Well, the Taliban claim to be a pure Muslim state while they really weren't. No where in Islam is it said that a woman is not allowed to have a proper education, for example. Au contraire, it insists on it. There are many wrong things out there.

One single drop of oil? Let's start with Iraq shall we...

By the way not all the Middle Eastern countries make their money out of oil. Some countries have used oil as a push start and have started to depend on commerce and tourism more.

I won't comment on the U.S. thing with trying to be peaceful, but it's funny how they went out of their way trying to censor pictures of casualties that were caused by their army while they were so fine with showing other people's pictures. Doesn't make sense to me.

The images you have just described is exactly what the media wants you to think of Islam.

Check these links:
http://www.turntoislam.com/pages/muslim_in_family.html
http://www.turntoislam.com/pages/muslim_in_texas.html

Not things you see being broadcasted a lot ;) do you now?

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Wow nice post if I say so myself.

Well, the Taliban claim to be a pure Muslim state while they really weren't. No where in Islam is it said that a woman is not allowed to have a proper education, for example. Au contraire, it insists on it. There are many wrong things out there.

One single drop of oil? Let's start with Iraq shall we...

By the way not all the Middle Eastern countries make their money out of oil. Some countries have used oil as a push start and have started to depend on commerce and tourism more.

I won't comment on the U.S. thing with trying to be peaceful, but it's funny how they went out of their way trying to censor pictures of casualties that were caused by their army while they were so fine with showing other people's pictures. Doesn't make sense to me.

The images you have just described is exactly what the media wants you to think of Islam.

Check these links:
http://www.turntoislam.com/pages/muslim_in_family.html
http://www.turntoislam.com/pages/muslim_in_texas.html

Not things you see being broadcasted a lot ;) do you now?

Propaganda films that ignores the reality of this world.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Wow nice post if I say so myself.

Well, the Taliban claim to be a pure Muslim state while they really weren't. No where in Islam is it said that a woman is not allowed to have a proper education, for example. Au contraire, it insists on it. There are many wrong things out there.



This is one of the most annoying things about Islam. Everything bad about Islam is denied. Even the bombing of the twin towers and killing innocent people was done by Islam but Muslims say it is not allowed by Islam. What do you take us for, morons?

I talked online to a palestinian and he said that killing of innocent women and children was NEVER allowed in Islam so I asked him about Israeli women and children and he said, "They are not innocent so it is allowed to kill them".

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Wow nice post if I say so myself.

Well, the Taliban claim to be a pure Muslim state while they really weren't. No where in Islam is it said that a woman is not allowed to have a proper education, for example. Au contraire, it insists on it. There are many wrong things out there.

One single drop of oil? Let's start with Iraq shall we...

By the way not all the Middle Eastern countries make their money out of oil. Some countries have used oil as a push start and have started to depend on commerce and tourism more.

I won't comment on the U.S. thing with trying to be peaceful, but it's funny how they went out of their way trying to censor pictures of casualties that were caused by their army while they were so fine with showing other people's pictures. Doesn't make sense to me.

The images you have just described is exactly what the media wants you to think of Islam.

Check these links:
http://www.turntoislam.com/pages/muslim_in_family.html
http://www.turntoislam.com/pages/muslim_in_texas.html

Not things you see being broadcasted a lot ;) do you now?

The Taliban did manage to control a whole country. They may not have been "true" islam, but they claimed to be & controlling a country is more than just a radicals dream. Iran is no Afghanistan, but it's not a 100 miles behind. Once you have such widespread facts on the ground - you can't so easily dismiss these claims to be "true Islam"

You are right the media does present a certain picture, but the western media is no more slanted than say Al Jazeera is. The media does not make anything up, they just report what happens - the items they choose to report is the only way they can create a bias.

I don't think your links prove much to be honest. Christians have these type of stories by the bucketload & they are just as meaningless.

One single drop of oil? Let's start with Iraq shall we...

Well yes - lets start with Iraq - how much Oil has the US stolen from Iraq? The last time I checked - Iraq was having elections for the first time. Iraq is a mess no question, and Oil is certainly a major reason why the US is in Iraq, but the US is not in Iraq to steal it's oil.

Your comment indicated that Iraq was only the start, so please continue and please list exactly where the US is stealing oil from? It's interesting, the view is even prevelant here, but I don't get it. Whenever the US buys something, there are a lot of people who say the US is exploiting or taking. Is the US not allowed to buy anything without fear of being told it is stealing? What would be a fair price? 150% of market price? 300% over market price? At what level would our purchases be fair?

The Misconception:

Islam tolerates the killing of innocents because:
Muslims can be terrorists

Muslims engage in `holy wars' (jihad)

Islam spread by the sword

it has a harsh and cruel judicial system

This misconception is one of the most widely held misconceptions about Islam today. And yet in the Qur'an, the Creator unambiguously states (translation),

[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)
Based on this verse, it is Islamically unlawful to murder anyone who is innocent of certain crimes. It is well to remember at this point the distinction made above between Qur'an and Sunnah, and the Muslims: only the Qur'an and Sunnah are guaranteed to be in accordance with what the Creator desires, whereas the Muslims may possibly deviate. Hence, if any Muslim kills an innocent person, that Muslim has committed a grave sin, and certainly the action cannot be claimed to have been done "in the name of Islam."

It should be clear, then, that "Muslim terrorist" is almost an oxymoron: by killing innocent people, a Muslim is commiting an awesome sin, and Allah is Justice personified. This phrase is offensive and demeaning of Islam, and it should be avoided. It is hoped that as the general level of public awareness and understanding of Islam increases, people will keep "terrorism" and "Islam" separate from each other, not to be used in the same phrase.

Another reason advanced in support of the misconception is that the Creator has imposed `jihad' on us. The term "holy war" is from the time of the Crusades and originated in Europe as a rallying cry against the Muslims in Jerusalem. Jihad is an Arabic word meaning struggle, but in the context of many verses in the Qur'an, it carries the meaning of military struggle, or war. Allah gradually introduced the obligation of military struggle to the Muslim community at the time of the Messenger (saas). The first verse ever revealed in that connection is as follows (translation),

[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
This verse lays down the precondition for all war in Islam: there must exist certain oppressive conditions on the people. The Creator unequivocally orders us to fight oppression and persecution, even at the expense of bloodshed as the following verse shows (translation),

[2:190-192] And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
As one might imagine, the method of military struggle has been clearly and extensively defined in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Since this subject is a huge one, we simply summarize part of it by noting that it is unlawful to kill women, children, the infirm, the old, and the innocent. From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find:

[4:52:257] Narrated 'Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.
A related misconception to jihad is often propagated by Muslims who say that "Jihad is only for self-defense of physical borders." The Qur'an and Sunnah refute this notion categorically. As the verses cited above show, jihad is obligatory wherever there is injustice, and Muslims need not acknowledge imaginary lines around the earth when it comes to upholding this obligation. The Messenger of Allah (saas) has also commented on this extensively in the Sunnah. From the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find that,

[4:52:65] Narrated Abu Musa: A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."
Hence, the Creator obligates us to fight wherever people are being grossly deprived of freely hearing or practicing the Message of Allah as contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Sayyed Qutb, a famous Muslim scholar eloquently discusses the notion of jihad and self-defense in his book Milestones,

"If we insist on calling Islamic jihad a defensive movement, then we must change the meaning of the word `defense' and mean by it `defense of man' against all those elements which limit his freedom. These elements take the form of beliefs and concepts, as well as of political systems, based on economic, racial, or class distinction."
A third reason often cited for the misconception about Islam which says that this way of life tolerates the killing of innocents is that the judicial system of Islam is unnecessarily harsh. This reason is weak in two respects. First, it presupposes that human beings are more just and more merciful than the Creator, and therefore we can change the law. Second, it is often based on gross oversimplifications of Islamic law, such as saying "all thieves get their hands cut off."

The Qur'an and Sunnah make it clear that the law of retaliation (or equality) governs us for murder and physical injury, but forgiveness is better as the following verses from the Qur'an show (translation),

[2:178] O you who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
[42:40-43] The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loves not those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a grievous penalty. And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage.
The Creator ordained the law of retaliation on us knowing full well that we might question it. In many non-Muslim societies today, there are ongoing debates about the death penalty. In Islam, this discussion is moot: the Creator has decided the matter for us. He has however given us an interesting verse in the Qur'an which advises to consider the matter carefully if we want to understand it (translation follows),

[2:179] And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O people of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.
Most people are also unaware of the stringent conditions which must be met for the law of retaliation to be applicable. The Sunnah is full of examples of the Messenger of Allah showing us when the law's preconditions were fulfilled. For example, a thief is only liable to lose his or her hand if the item stolen exceeds a certain value, and if it is proven that the item was taken from its normal resting place. Stealing food is not punishable by the loss of one's hand, and other items are exempt as well. This is just an example of how gingerly the law is applied in Islam.

Finally, another reason advanced for this prevalent misconception is that Islam `spread by the sword'. It should be clear by now that we must always distinguish between the Qur'an and Sunnah and the Muslims when it comes to determining what the Creator has asked of us. Allah has stated clearly in the Qur'an (translation),

[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever rejects Satan (and what he calls to) and believes in Allah, he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handhold, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Hence, it is impossible to accept Islam under duress. Even if misguided Muslims were to try to `force' Islam somehow on others, it would not be accepted by the Creator based on this verse.

Historical arguments that try to demonstrate that Muslims did not `convert others by force' are actually secondary to the argument given above. However, it is worth noting that historically, Islam did spread by peaceful means. The Message of the Creator was conveyed to Africa and to southeast Asia by trading Muslims, and today the largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. The military expeditions that led to the conquest of large swathes of territory in Europe and central Asia were all marked by tolerance of other creeds and faith.

Again, it is important to remember that Allah declares it IMPOSSIBLE that Islam can be forced on a person, hence Muslims find it useless to try!

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html#HEADING7

In other words, all those angry rioters who yell "kill" are violating their religious teachings in order to defend their religion. I think Drew is right. It's lack of education that caused this problem. If these people have basic reasoning skills, they would see that what they are doing and what they think they want to achieve do not agree.

It seems the religion of Islam is not that evil after all. Is it fair to say that there is just a lot of stupid people practicing it, hence the current situation?

here is a post from an Muslim board in england. They are calling themselves the lions and they don't want any muslims joining the British police.

This pretty much shows their racist hatred for non-muslims.


There is no surprise in the animosity of the Kuffar nor in their campaign against Islam and Muslims and their eagerness to compel Muslims to leave the wisdom and guidance of Islam in exchange for the filth of their own man-made law. They call and wish the Muslims to leave the high ranks of Islam and to lower ourselves to the ranks of the Police, and Allah informs us of how our response should be,

“They but wish that you should become Kafir, the way that they are Kafir, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends/allies from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;” [EMQ 4: 89]

Verily nobody responds to their call except that he disbelieves the way they disbelieve, Allah (swt) says,

“O you who believe! Do not ally to the Jews and Christians (or any other non-muslims who are all less than them), they are only allies to each other and whoever allies with them is one of them (i.e. is a Kafir like them) and Allah does not guide Al Zalimun (i.e. disbelievers, apostates).” [EMQ 5: 51]

Al Tabari said about this ayah,

“Whoever allies with them, is one of them, (means) that he becomes from their deen and their sect, no one allies with someone unless he is on the same deen, belief or sect, or if he is pleased, happy consenting to them, and whoever is pleased, happy and consenting to something he become opposing to what is opposite to it. This is why the hukm of the mu’min who allies with the kaafir, is the same hukm as the kaafir.”

And Imam Qurtubi said,

“His hukm is like their hukm, he will be prevented from taking inheritance, the ayah is speaking about ibn Abi Salul, he allied with the kuffar, his hukm will continue until the day of judgement, that everyone must boycott any muwalaat with him because he differs with Allah and his Messenger, he consented to the kuffar and so it becomes obligatory to declare animosity towards him and them, and hellfire becomes obligatory on him, the way it is obligatory on them.”

Those police who are on the front line in the war on terror know very well that they cannot defeat the lions of Jihad like Sheikh Usama bin Laden and Sheikh Abu Mus’ab and are desperate to recruit from within the Muslim community anybody willing to betray their Muslim brothers, to spy and inform about them especially after the exposed weakness in the security of the British government against attack. What is surprising is the numbers of hypocrites who rush to answer their call claiming that “it is because we are not involved with the police that we are facing calamity from them” But we are not disheartened because Allah (swt) informed us of those enemies within the Muslim community,

ANd the hatred u have for muslims?

Originally posted by googs
ANd the hatred u have for muslims?

Muslims blame others for what they have in their own heart. I have no hate, I only point out that one should beware of Muslim racist hatred.

Here is some news from Palstine for you.


PA Academic on PA TV: Killing of Jews is Mandatory
By Itamar Marcus & Barbara Crook, December 27, 2004


For years, the PA religious establishment has repeatedly portrayed the killing of Jews as a religious necessity. Today, PA TV chose to rebroadcast this same call to genocide as a historical necessity - this time from a senior PA academic rather than from a religious leader.

Dr. Hassan Khater, founder of the Al-Quds Encyclopedia and a TV lecturer, cited the identical hadith (an Islamic tradition attributed to Muhammad) that the religious leaders have used to demand this genocide. This was part of a lecture focusing on what he described as the war of the Jews against Palestinian trees.

These were his words quoting the hadith:

"Muhammad said in his hadith, 'The Hour [of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: O Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'""
PA TV, December 27, 2004 [Rebroadcast from July 13, 2003]

The continued teaching that this hadith applies today could well be a dominant factor driving terror against Israeli civilians. By depicting redemption as dependent on Muslims killing Jews, the PA worldview presents this genocide as a religious obligation and historical necessity - not related to a conflict over borders, but as something inherent to Allah's world.

To view today's call to genocide click here

To hear this call to genocide expressed earlier in the year by a religious leader click here

Sheik Ibrahim Mudayris in a Friday sermon, PA TV, September 10, 2004:

"The Prophet said the Resurrection will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them. The Muslims will kill the Jews, rejoice. Rejoice in Allah's Victory. The Muslims will kill the Jew, and he will hide.

"The Prophet said: 'The Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: O servant of Allah, O Muslim this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'

"Why is there this malice? Because there are none who love the Jews on the face of the earth: not man, not rock, and not tree - everything hates them. They destroy everything! They destroy the trees and destroy the houses. Everything wants vengeance on the Jews, on these pigs on the face of the earth, and the day of our victory, Allah willing, will come."

Perhaps this is part of the problem - how muslims raise their kids

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2006/02/23/PH2006022301990.jpg

The Muslims do have one helluva problem with publicity, that's for sure. As noted above, as long as Allah is mentioned somewhere, either in denial of the crime, or the justification of the same crime, everything is fine. Where is the Muslim equivalent of the Pope, and why is that Holy Man not voicing a loud opinion about the horrors being preformed in the name of Islam?

Funny how all of you claim that we are denying the realities of this world while what we're doing is stating the fact that what some people are doing in the name of Islam is wrong yet you are the ones who deny that there is such a thing as radicals in each religion? Islam do have a huge problem with publicity that's very true, but we're here to show you that not everything that you see or read is true. Or are you too narrow minded to accept the fact that there could in fact be radicals that use the name of any religion in order to commit acts for whatever reasons they might have?
Racism exists everywhere and it's up to you whether or not you want it to live in your heart or cease to.

DrewM, about the movie, it might not mean much to you but it could mean a lot to many others. Perhaps you need to clear your mind a bit regarding Islam and politics before you want to really take in those videos.
About the oil thing, well I guess that it's funny how everytime the U.S. comes to a Middle Eastern country they leave by the bucketloads. Why would they rather bomb Iran (owner of nuclear weapons) and not want to bomb North Korea which has even more nuclear weapons? Please use your mind here and not your media.
About the kids, I'd usually not comment on such obscene images but may God help his parents to know that the such isn't the smartest way to raise a kid.

Oh old-reb, I thought you'd be one of the first to know that not everything you hear is true... Unless, of course, what you want to think to be true is the fact that all Muslims are evil and anyone else is fine.

es347fan, there is no such thing in Islam as the equivalent of the Pope. We only have a few men who are very knowledgable in the religion, and those are the ones that we choose to listen to when it comes to giving new fatwa's and the such. Of course, you use your mind too. I've heard the funniest fatwa's, it doesn't mean that I'd follow them. It depends on ur mind really.

Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8kXbNbjmhI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fonegoodmove%2Eorg%2F1gm%2F

Innocent Sweetie

If it was just a few radical Muslims yelling in the streets that would be one thing but it is a sizable minority of the Muslim population that is acting in this way. It is members of the Muslim leadership that is inciting the riots.

Any condemnation of the Islamic terrorists by their coreligionists is muted and almost nonexistent.

02/16: Rachel Show: What would Jesus in a white hood do?
Category: General Posted by: Dustin
By Rachel Campbell
Journal Times

This cartoon thing isn’t about the free press striking a victory against terrorism: After all, as an editorial in today’s Jakarta Post points out, Jyllands-Posten editor Fleming Rose has repeatedly sort-of apologized by saying “that the cartoons were not meant to hurt Muslims but only to represent, through an image, that a number of Muslims had become terrorists. If that was the purpose, why not use an image of Osama Bin Laden?”

Or, to flip it so we Westerners can get a clue: Editorial cartoons about Dubya bombing the hell out of Iraqi civilians are one thing; but editorial cartoons about Jesus Christ doing this are quite another.

This isn’t to advocate censorship, believe me; nor is it to say that comments on any religion’s exploitation by the power-lustful, if that was indeed Jyllands-Posten’s intent, aren’t merited. But judging all of Islam based on the actions of rioters and terrorists, which has become alarmingly popular throughout Europe and North America, is kind of like judging all of Christianity based on the actions of the KKK. Muslim rioters and terrorists are the ones given most of the news coverage at the moment, because that’s primarily because Muslim rioters and terrorists are what we Westerners are most afraid of right now – that’s what’s maiming and killing our kids, that’s where all our nonexistent money is going – so that’s what will sell newspapers and boost ratings. End of story. If half that coverage was devoted to the White Knights in Arkansas, you’d swear Christianity was nothing but a terrorist religion, too. (That or you’d be getting mighty sick of defending Christ’s message of love and peace to all the morons in the world every time a Klansman lights a cross.)

As Muslim Karim Raslan wrote in a New York Times op-ed Wednesday, Indonesian Muslim leader Din Syamsuddin, “a firebrand by most accounts,” instructed his 30 million followers “not to overreact and act in a violent and anarchist way because those things are completely against Islamic teachings.” And the BBC reported earlier this month that British Muslim leader Asghar Bukhari said anti-Western marchers’ cries of “7/7 is on its way” were “disgraceful and disgusting” and “did not represent British Muslims.”

And then there’s everyone’s favorite conservative, Ann Coulter. She kicks off this week’s column with the following: “The amazing part of the Danish cartoon caper isn’t that Muslims immediately engage in acts of mob violence when things don’t go their way. That is de rigueur for the Religion of Peace.”

But hold on to your pies, kids: She adds, as an illustrative example, that after the Salaam Boccaccio 98 sank in the Red Sea, taking more than 1,000 souls, “a whole braying mob of passengers’ relatives staged an organized attack on the company, throwing furniture out the window and burning the building to the ground. Witnesses say it was the most violent ocean liner-related incident since Carnival Cruise Lines fired Kathie Lee Gifford.”

Alright, so the joke itself isn’t very funny. (I think the last time Kathie Lee was viable joke fodder was when I was in high school – I Googled her, and it turns out she’s been out of the spotlight for six years – but then again, I doubt Coulter concentrates much on a demographic that gets our political humor from “The Colbert Report,” “The Daily Show,” and, if you look very closely and through very bloodshot eyes, “Family Guy.”) But it’s worth noting, jerks sending me Muslims-are-the-new-Nazis forwarded barely-literate e-mails, that even Saint Annie gets the fact that fundamentalist terrorists are whack-job exceptions, not the rule. Try not to let the m.s.m. do your thinking for you.

goog and innocent post a lot of junk but do you two agree that we should be allowed to print what we want on our free press or must we get permission from Islam before the presses roll?

Originally posted by old-reb
goog and innocent post a lot of junk but do you two agree that we should be allowed to print what we want on our free press or must we get permission from Islam before the presses roll?

I think that's a given reb...we can print what we want, and they can riot about it if they want to...the point is that it's not islamics rioting, it's extremists...

Vilepagan, I dont get ur intention? Are you begin sarcastic?

Frogger I see your point, and what you mentioned really is a sad fact. It needs to be said, though, that even though there exists a sizeable number of radicals at this age there still are the ones that are hanging on to the true and original faith.

old-reb you're allowed to do what you want to do... I don't know about goog and I'm not going to speak for both of us but I think that goog might share the same thoughts as I do; the two of us are just here to explain why riots and the such are happening, we are not here to justify them, we are also here to explain our points of view which are "it would be better if people didn't insult other's beliefs."

Vile, I agree with what you said..

Innocent Sweetie

You and goog are good ambassadors for Islam. You are both rational and able to explain yourselves without ranting or threatening. Would that the rest of the Islamic world was the same.

Yes, there are rational and calm people in the Muslim world but they are overshadowed by the violent members of that world. When mullahs, ayatollahs, and Imams call for the killing of people and crowds of thousands call for the blood of cartoonists the rest of the world sees Islam as a religion of violence that cannot be tolerated.

There are one and a half billion Moslems in the world but there are many more members of other religions. In fact, there are many more Christians alone than Moslems. These members of other religions are also more technologically advanced and better armed than the Moslems.

It is the height of folly for Moslems around the world to keep poking the sleeping giant in the eye. They just might wake him and that would not bode well for them.

It is time for saner heads to take the reins of control out of the hands of the extremists and bring Moslems the world over back into the fold of adult, rational, beings.

That's why starting with it one step at a time is the best way to go about it. First, correct people's view of the Islamic faith and let them know that while there may exist many radicals (sadly), there still are those who follow the true faith. Maybe then the sane ones will be able to stop the radicals.

Originally posted by googs
Vilepagan, I dont get ur intention? Are you begin sarcastic?

Not at all googs. I think a large part of the problem is the inability or the unwillingness of some westerners to separate the actions of a few terrorists from the teachings of Islam.

Originally posted by Frogger
Innocent Sweetie

You and goog are good ambassadors for Islam. You are both rational and able to explain yourselves without ranting or threatening. Would that the rest of the Islamic world was the same.

For the most part, the rest of the Islamic world is the same. We only see the part that is controversial enough to make the news.


Yes, there are rational and calm people in the Muslim world but they are overshadowed by the violent members of that world.

Blame the media, not the Muslims.


When mullahs, ayatollahs, and Imams call for the killing of people and crowds of thousands call for the blood of cartoonists the rest of the world sees Islam as a religion of violence that cannot be tolerated.

Agreed, but I believe the prevalence of the radicals is overblown by the disproportianate coverage they receive.


There are one and a half billion Moslems in the world but there are many more members of other religions. In fact, there are many more Christians alone than Moslems. These members of other religions are also more technologically advanced and better armed than the Moslems.

It is the height of folly for Moslems around the world to keep poking the sleeping giant in the eye. They just might wake him and that would not bode well for them.

This attitude doesn't foster trust easily.


It is time for saner heads to take the reins of control out of the hands of the extremists and bring Moslems the world over back into the fold of adult, rational, beings.

A good thought.

Media in favor of Iranians against the Iranian President. v=CFNfkiC24m8&search=american%20islam

I am sure, no need to even go deep to find out who did this, it's
obvious that it was done by a radical, fundamentalist, pseudo christian sect who want to antagonize further with the Muslim people. All that the Muslims want is to be left alone with their believes, which as a matter of fact are as valid as those of any christian, they are just 'believes', not the holly truth. Leave them, get the f... out of there, get back inside your borders, if Uncle Sam stays the f... away from foreign land, no foreigner will try to blow up anything or anyone in the U.S. Wishful thinking, unfortunately the decent people of the U.S. pays for what a group of greedy Corporations do to many countries, all the wealth they stole from those countries was done with bribes, assassinations, and other dark dark means to obtain it. And they continue to get the big bucks out of these troubled waters. You know, 'reconstruction contracts', and of course the other contracts to replace the weaponry used up in this ridiculous war, where the common people give their blood, and they (those in power) get the cash.....
And as for the 'terrorists', they are defending their country invaded by a foreign army, anybody would have to attack the all powerful army with a sort of 'guerrilla', you can't expect them to fight in the open. 'Vietnam' didn't last long to come back, only a stupid stumble with the same stone twice.